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September 20, 2010 9:58am by David Farrar

General Debate 20 September 2010

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Banana Llama

space for rent
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September 20, 2010 9:59am
RightNow

I’m not in the habit of coming first anyway
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September 20, 2010 10:03am
Viking2

Slow Monday eh?
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September 20, 2010 10:04am
Redbaiter

Pro Obama union organised anti Tea Party groups spits on and abuses attendees at Andrew Beitbart event. You won’t see it in the lying left wing mainstream media.

http://biggovernment.com/jhoft/2010/09/19/leftist-religious-mob-spits-on-andrew-breitbart-screams-homo-video/

Breitbart faces down union thugs holding Beck is a coward and Beck is a liar placards. Mindless union thugs, they cannot even come close to answering his challenges as to why Beck is a liar or a coward, and walk away.

This is the left people. The battle today is all about truth. You do not get it from the left controlled mainstream media.
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September 20, 2010 10:06am
Viking2

TelstraClear will trial a 100 megabit per second broadband service in Wellington next week and step up its efforts to persuade the Government that it would be wasting taxpayers’ money overbuilding its cable networks in Wellington and Christchurch with fibre-optic cable.

Chief executive Allan Freeth said it would invite about half-a-dozen people to test the service, which will provide download speeds of 100Mbps and upload speeds of 10Mbps, hoping that would generate debate about the uses of ultrafast broadband.

Depending on demand, TelstraClear could launch that as a commercial service by June, he said.

The 100Mbps trial was intended to send a message to both the Government and Crown Fibre Holdings that their aspirations had been achieved here, he said.

It will coincide with a billboard campaign that claims Communications Minister Steven Joyce can “put his feet up” as ultrafast broadband is already coming to the capital.

The Government has proposed investing $1.35 billion in a fibre-to-the-home UFB network that would provide minimum download speeds of 100Mbps and upload speeds of 50Mbps.

Dr Freeth said overbuilding TelstraClear’s HFC networks would be “an irrational economic move”.

“We have a very popular triple-play service which we are continually upgrading. But people seem to develop philosophy-driven perspectives and may just believe they have to have [fibre-to-the-home] everywhere, in which case that has some pretty serious consequences for us and we will compete ferociously in the market.” A Crown Fibre spokesman said Wellington and Christchurch were included in the UFB scheme. “TelstraClear’s decisions or comments related to UFB are theirs to make.”

TelstraClear was genuinely interested in testing demand for a 100Mbps service, Dr Freeth said. In addition to the trial, the company would invite people to join an online debate. “It truly is of interest to us and the network guys to say `just how is this going to be used out there?”‘

http://adsfac.net/link.asp?cc=ELS011.124837.0&CreativeID=177005

Top banner on Kiwiblog this morning
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September 20, 2010 10:07am
MyNameIsJack

Redbaiter (11,394) Says:

September 20th, 2010 at 10:06 am
Pro Obama union organised anti Tea Party groups spits on and abuses attendees at Andrew Beitbart event. You won’t see it in the lying left wing mainstream media.</i.

Nope, you'll just see it in the lying right wing mainstream media.

You DO realise FOX is MSM, don't you?
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September 20, 2010 10:10am
Rodders

Awoke this morning to Mary Wilson’s voice on the radio. The buzzer alarm would have been a more agreeable sound.

On Morning Report, it was stated that Peter Dunne believes ACT’s problems could provide his party with more voters. MMP’s opportunist has tried alliances with ethnic minorities, pentecostals and shooters & fishers. Who is he yet to woo – marxists, marijuana law reformers and social creditors ?
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September 20, 2010 10:15am
mattyroo

Scream leftys, scream: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10674764
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September 20, 2010 10:16am
Inventory2

Who’d have ever suspected that Matt Jones from Unite in Christchurch would have let the facts get in the way of a good story?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/09/more-on-tour-of-shame.html

Shame!
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September 20, 2010 10:18am
MyNameIsJack

Who are these teapartiers?

64 percent believe that Obama has increased taxes for most Americans. The vast majority of actually have seen a federal tax cut.

30 percent believe Obama was born in another country.

75% say government bail out of banks was unnecessary.

89% are white, 29% are over 65, 75% 45 or older.

Chicago Sunday Times, 19/09/10

The Tea Party is an attempt by media elites to subvert American democracy, to impose an anti-Democratic One Party State beholden to Murdoch. And the fools are falling for it.

Fortunately, only 19% of Americans identify as tea partiers
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September 20, 2010 10:23am
joana

Matt Jones’ rent a crowd is a group called ”Beyond Resistance” They are serious anarchists who ought to be investigated. They sometimes meet at the WEA rooms and show anarchist movies at the Linwood Community Centre. They are involved in all protests in ChCh.
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September 20, 2010 10:24am
Guy Fawkes

And still the dollar rides high against the major currencies. Not our strength surely? Got to be more about their weakness’s.
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September 20, 2010 10:25am
kowtow

Watched a few minutes of the Queensland and Nortern Territories Aerial Service Film and TV Awards last night.

The MC,supposedly a comedian,made reference to 50 years of TV in NZ,also used the FUCK word in his introduction.

So the introduction to the big show of the year is a suitable place for a casually remarked “fuck”?

Well if that’s what 50 years of tv gets you then we’re well and truly fucked.

And as an aside it makes me puke that these nobodies that constitute our “celebrities” and “opionion formers” are constantly bagging the Aussies on air while crowing about their own achievements at the Queensland and Northern Territories Aerial Services awards.

Rant over.
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September 20, 2010 10:25am
Murray

Learn to turn off you italics dipshit otherwise everything in your post is a quote.

Everything you say is utter crap and it helps to seperate it out.
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September 20, 2010 10:26am
Banana Llama

Viking2 10:07 am

Yeah … no doubt the contract will be a pain in the ass and i will be genuinely surprised if the service provided 10Mbs up.
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September 20, 2010 10:26am
krazykiwi

only 19% of Americans identify as tea partiers

Which makes it the fastest growing grass-roots movement in modern US history. The Marxist liars and wreckers of democracy are rightly worried. Good times.
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September 20, 2010 10:42am
Inventory2

Thanks for the heads-up Joana; I’ve done some research, and updated my blog-post accordingly. I like this bit on their blog:

Beyond Resistance is a collective of revolutionary class struggle anarchists in Otautahi/Christchurch, Aotearoa, who have come together in the hope of creating a coherent and organised anarchist presence in our area. Our name reflects our intended approach to struggle — a visible and constructive anarchism that goes beyond mere reaction, both in the workplace and the community.

It all sounds a bit like that Citizen Smith TV programme that used to be on years ago …
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September 20, 2010 10:43am
MyNameIsJack

Who is Christine O’Donnell?

Ignorant – Through her extensive media appearances in the 1990s, she expressed doubts about evolution and criticized homosexuality. She also said, in a 1997 C-SPAN clip unearthed by Talking Points Memo, that AIDS sufferers brought the disease on themselves and that too much money is spent on prevention efforts.

Liar – O’Donnell had long said she was a graduate of Fairleigh Dickinson, but she did not receive her degree until this month. While she says on her Web site that the delay was a result of the unpaid tuition, a campaign official told Politico earlier this month that she did not complete her coursework until this summer.

tax evader – The IRS placed a lien against her earlier this year, saying she owed nearly $12,000 in unpaid taxes from 2005

Bad Debtor – Fairleigh Dickinson has sued her repeatedly to collect almost $5,000 of unpaid tuition, and two years ago, her mortgage company sued her for not paying rent.

Source – Washington Post. 19/09/10
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September 20, 2010 10:45am
Rodders

Re TVNZ’s Qantas awards show last night, there were few laughs. Rhys Darby died on stage, Taika Waititi was as annoying as ever with Paul Henry providing the only unforced laughs.
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September 20, 2010 10:47am
Lance

The trouble with the ‘tea party crowd’ is the wisdom seems to be the only way to counter left wing whack jobs.. is with right wing whack jobs.

Sorry but they are both nothing but whack jobs

No chance of level headed normal people starting some movement is there?
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September 20, 2010 10:53am
tom hunter

Who is he?:

Druggie – “I only did cocaine to stay awake to make sure nobody else did too much cocaine. That was the only reason I ever did it. Heh heh.”

Capitalist Oppressor – he failed to pay workers’ compensation insurance in New York where he had been making a living before he returned to Minnesota to run for office.

Tax evader – he failed to file corporate tax returns in California.

Bad debtor – he owed $70,000 in back taxes in 17 states. he blamed the problem on his accountant and then instructed his accountant not to talk to the press.

Comedian Al Franken is now the US Senator for Minnesota.

Source: Powerline 🙂
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September 20, 2010 10:57am
joana

Inventory..they are really zealous. They are connected to older socialist /commie type people mainly men in ChCh. Their pet hate is nationalists. The scarey thing is they really believe in anarchy. They are also influential over many young people..It would only take one over enthousiastic young person to act on one of their ideas for there to be disastrous consequences.
It is easy to dismiss them but for the reasons above , I am inclined to think they are dangerous.
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September 20, 2010 10:59am
krazykiwi

Who is Christine O’Donnell?

Who cares? It’s just soooo much fun seeing you lefties white with fear.
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September 20, 2010 10:59am
MyNameIsJack

krazykiwi (6,484) Says:

September 20th, 2010 at 10:59 am
Who is Christine O’Donnell?

Who cares? It’s just soooo much fun seeing you lefties white with fear.

I might be afraid, if I could find time to stop laughing at these idiots that think they have the answers, when none of them can even understand the question.

It is not the left that is white with fear; it is the right that is white with hatred that it no longer calls the shots. It is small man syndrome writ large.
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September 20, 2010 11:03am
Redbaiter

Jack, you post here under numerous names. On numerous other blogs, you commit the utter cowardice of posting fake messages under the names of other posters. You’ve shown well enough who you are and what you stand for. That after such despicable cowardly behaviour you still post here in the arrogant belief that you enjoy some credibility is just more proof of how incapable you are of recognising truth or acting with decency or dealing with reality. You’re just low life vermin, and you should go away. You have no truth. Your frantic postings are an exercise in utter futility. If you had a milligram of common sense you would twig to that.
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September 20, 2010 11:12am
Redbaiter

“No chance of level headed normal people starting some movement is there?”

They have. Its called the Tea Party Movement, and if you were not so full of bullshit from your (obviously) severely limited, one sided and partisan information sources you would know that. First though, you would need to have the intelligence to discriminate between lies and truth. Can you meet that simple test?
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September 20, 2010 11:15am
Pete George

RB, you can’t meet that simple test.

Joanna – potentially dangerous – but what the heck are Unite doing being connected with anarchists. Presumably they are aware of what Matt Jones is involved with, if not they should be.
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September 20, 2010 11:24am
Lance

Red.. the voice of reason
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September 20, 2010 11:25am
Inventory2

@ Pete George – quite so. I daresay that Matt McCarten will not be pleased to learn that the rag-tag bunch following Comrade Jones around yesterday were not actually UNITE members, but anarchists from Otautahi recruited just for that purpose. McCarten has worked hard to build UNITE’s reputation (even though I do not agree with his politics), and I doubt that he will be happy to see the union’s brand tarnished through association with professional protesters.
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September 20, 2010 11:37am
Redbaiter

“Red.. the voice of reason”

So what do you have besides smears and half witted attempts to be clever Lance? Any chance of any real argument or is your true objective just to discredit those who do not share your delusional leftist world view? Do you really have any interest in the truth? I’ve yet to see any sign that you have.

If I am so deficient in reason it should be no trouble for you to defeat me with argument, so why not give it a try?
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September 20, 2010 11:37am
Lance

The problem is RED every attempt by ANYONE to present an argument to you results in nothing but and endless torrent of abuse and belittlement.

Seriously… look at yourself.

I am sure this will result in more abuse from you so what’s the point?
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September 20, 2010 11:47am
MikeNZ

http://pinkneck.com/2010/09/we-need-less-tolerance-not-more.html

Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. – Thomas Mann.
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September 20, 2010 11:48am
MyNameIsJack

lance, its not a new article, but it is a good read about our favourite useful idiot from the Right.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/gordon-mclauchlan/news/article.cfm?a_id=4&objectid=3544039

For example, Tauranga raises its angry head again this week in my email inbox in the shape of Mr Russell Fletcher, who fulminates at my suggestion last week that there is something engagingly anachronistic about the word “commie”, specifically when it was used to describe Waitakere City, whose council, I would have thought, was notably free of reds under beds – although Mayor Bob Harvey has a sense of humour which I have sometimes thought refreshingly subversive.

But beware of commies as much as ever, according to our Russell Fletcher. He sent me one of those rabid, right-wing tirades from the internet which explains that communists haven’t gone away, they have just transmuted into all those people its author hates.

A vast network of reds pretending to be another colour threatens our “civilisation”. He says that “in the remote chance” that I read the article, “the knowledge might prevent you from offering such outdated, uninformed, apologist, leftist garbage in the future”.
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September 20, 2010 11:51am
Lance

Thanks MNIJ
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September 20, 2010 11:55am
Angus

MyNameIsJack – LeftRightOut – Fugley – BillyBorker – AlexBurns – StanZemanek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Piesse
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September 20, 2010 11:59am
Redbaiter

“I am sure this will result in more abuse from you so what’s the point?”

See. You have no argument. You exist on this discussion group not to express views that may enlighten others or to hear views that may enlighten yourself, but to bash out smears bigotry and prejudice, as you have instanced in your attack on the Tea Party movement. It would be simple for you to post your sources and information to back up your assertion that they are “right wing whack jobs”, but just like the union members confronted by Andrew Beirbart in the url I provided above, you turn yellow and run when asked to do so. And attempt to cover your abject cowardice and lack of real argument with further smears.

Note well other readers- this is the left, and this is the battle that will grow more and more intense as they begin to lose their grip on power. The truth will be assaulted with viciousness and hate, and those who attempt to bring you truth will be assaulted even more viciously and hatefully.

Do not underestimate what these people will do or what amoral means they will turn to to preserve their hold on power.

There is one concept that we must pursue and that will defeat them every time. Just ask for the truth, and deal in it yourself. The left have no rational answer to this simple strategy, and are left with bluster lies and smears. We will defeat them if we stick to truth. It is truth that has brought them to the frantic state they are observed to be in today.
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September 20, 2010 12:04pm
Inventory2

Piesse was elected President of the Alliance Party at the 2007 national conference held in Dunedin. In the 2008 elections he contested the Christchurch East electorate and was number 4 on the Alliance Party list. He fared poorly, coming eighth with only 119 votes.[1] The Alliance also did badly, winning only 0.08% of the party vote nationwide.

Nothing to add to that, really …
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September 20, 2010 12:04pm
Pauleastbay

A quote of a conversation from Tony’s Blair’s memoir ” A Journey”, between Blair and Charlie Falconer when the train bringing all the media to the opening of the Millennium Dome breaks down:

Blair: ” What, what? What the hell are the media doing there? You didn’t,no,please, please dear God, please tell me you didn’t have the media coming here by Tube from Stratford, just like ordinary members of the public”

Falconer:Well, we thought it would be more democratic that way.”

Blair: Democratic? What fool thought that? They’re the media, for Christ’s sake. They write about people. They don’t want to be treated like them”>

And there I believe we have the problem regarding the MSM explained in a nutshell. They think they are all very special and influential ( applies to politicians as well of course) but it also explains alot when you have the PM of Great britain wound up like this over the newspaper editors being made to wait .
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September 20, 2010 12:09pm
Redbaiter

“Nothing to add to that, really …”

Quite right.

0.08% of the party vote nationwide.

This is the pissant extreme left minority who describe the Tea Partiers, who have the whole of the US left wing political establishment running scared, and who have massive political support (far in excess of zero point zero eight) as “right wing whack jobs”.

BTW, whatever happened to Gordon Mclaughlan. he dissapeared soon after that tirade and hasn’t ever beens een fromn agaion. maybe his extreme left writings tyle was even too much for a hopeless commei rag liek the Herald. Still, today they have Matt McCarten. Slightly less radical than Gordon so some improvement I guess.
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September 20, 2010 12:11pm
MyNameIsJack

Angus (464) Says:

September 20th, 2010 at 11:59 am
MyNameIsJack – LeftRightOut – Fugley – BillyBorker – AlexBurns – StanZemanek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Piesse

Careful Angus, or you may be the next Harpooned Whale. Unless you can provide proof I AM Paul Piesse he just may get very pissed with you. And saying “Peter Burns told me” won’t be a defence. I looked on my driving licence, and it doesn’t say Paul Piesse.

Care to provide proof, or are you happy to let everyone here see your lie?
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September 20, 2010 12:15pm
MyNameIsJack

redbaiter Just ask for the truth, brought to you by the same slack jawed yokels who gave us “Teach the controversy”.
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September 20, 2010 12:17pm
Redbaiter

“Care to provide proof, or are you happy to let everyone here see your lie?”

What lie? I can’t see where he said you were Paul Piesse.
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September 20, 2010 12:20pm
RRM

NZ ranked third best in world for economic freedom (ahead of Aussie and USA) …

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4145975/NZ-ranks-third-in-world-for-economic-freedom

Report co-authored by NZ Business Roundtable apparently.
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September 20, 2010 12:23pm
krazykiwi

@MNIJ – Augus’ comment is not a lie. It’s a claim that you can refute easily by outing yourself.

BTW my drivers licence says:

1. [Surname]
2. [Firstname]
[Middlename]

.. not ..

[Firstname] [Surname]

So nice try on the obfuscation-like claim that is doesn’t say “Paul Piesse”
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September 20, 2010 12:27pm
Redbaiter

Thanks for that RRM.

Excerpt-

“Since 1995, Australia’s score has improved 20 per cent (from 5.68 out of 10 to 6.8) whereas New Zealand’s has dropped by 18 per cent (from 7.46 to 6.14).

On the new category which analyses the impact of economic freedom on unemployment, New Zealand scored just 4.14.”
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September 20, 2010 12:29pm
lofty

MNIJ – your reaction by way of a not so veiled threat, may lead one to believe that there is a connection to the link and you.

Fairly strong response I thought, why????
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September 20, 2010 12:34pm
lofty

The fiddled candidate selection in Mana is nothing new in the labour party.

Seen it before on many occasions over the years., just surprised that the rort was flagged so early in the piece, by the appointment of Mold. I thought it was unlike the party to make its intentions known before doing over the local members.
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September 20, 2010 12:39pm
Nomestradamus

Goodness – why did MNIJ run away from this thread? 🙂
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September 20, 2010 1:27pm
lofty

He will be back Nomestradus – probably as either LeftRightOut – Fugley – BillyBorker – AlexBurns – StanZemanek, after his anger fades away.

His response was one of an angry man I thought, why????? Has he been sprung, has the cloak of anonimity been lifted from MNIJ??
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September 20, 2010 1:34pm
Nomestradamus

Lofty:

Yes, it was an interesting reaction.

I distinctly recall, though, that MNIJ recently (in response to a challenge from Inventory2) offered a different name:

Inventory2 (5,083) Says:
August 28th, 2010 at 10:01 am

@ MNIJ – do you have the guts to say what you think publicly, and under your own name, not a pseudonym? Thought not …

MyNameIsJack (1,531) Says:
August 28th, 2010 at 10:08 am

…
Gary Jeffrey.
IV2, your turn.

I wouldn’t normally publicise this, but when it comes to someone like MNIJ I’m prepared to make an exception. No idea whether MNIJ is Paul or Gary though. Perhaps someone else can look into this further.
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September 20, 2010 1:48pm
Rich Prick

119 votes and 0.08% of the party vote. There are textbooks on the effects of rejection.
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September 20, 2010 1:49pm
MyNameIsJack

Sorry to disappoint, didn’t “run away” its just that sometimes work gets in the way of fun.

Yes, Gary Jeffrey is my name. As you can see, I posted that in reply to IV2, who, as far as I know, is yet to do the same.

I guess the more pertinent questioon is why “Angus” has run away, hasn’t bothered to defend his lie.
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September 20, 2010 2:10pm
lofty

Paul or Gary??? Who cares? Not me, just very interested in the OTT reaction.

He makes me smile with his attacks on redbaiter, calling him narrow minded, etc…. Pot calling kettle.

While I dont always agree with red I admire his tenacity in calling out the fudgers of truth, and apologists for the left.
Progressives as red calls them, although if someone could enlighten me as to what the term “progressive” actually means I would appreciate it.
I think I am “progressive” in the sense that I would like us all to progress to individual responsibility that then weaves it spell across our society.

Ah well, all grist for the mill I suppose.
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September 20, 2010 2:11pm
Rex Widerstrom

From the Fa’afoi thread yesterday, because I’d like to explore the idea and it’s a GD topic anyway…

Pete George suggested:

I’m keen on trying to get something going here next year with Hodgson retiring:
– a candidate selection process including anyone in the electorate who wants to participate
– candidate commits to a written pledge of compliance
– an online discussion/feedback/polling system to support/guide the candidate
etc
(I have no ambitions to stand, I’d just like to help facilitate)

You would only need a few to start making a difference, and it would give each electorate that succeeds more direct connection with the democratic process. Surely it would interest a few.

First off, if you’re going to respond try to leave out the ad homs. I know some people don’t like Pete… I don’t care. It’s the ideas I’m interested in hearing comment on. Specifically:

A candidate selection process including anyone in the electorate who wants to participate

A primary, in other words, but one that’s open not just to registered party members. Act played with that idea IIRC. Can anyone comment on how it worked out? An immediate “pro” that comes to mind is greater ties between the candidate, if elected, and the people s/he represents. An immediate “con” is the potential for “stacking”… if Labour will bus people in to their pre-selections, imagine what they’d do to a primary to make sure the worst candidate got selected by the opposition. So how to run an open primary without also running that risk?

The candidate commits to a written pledge of compliance

I like it, but compliance to what? A tightly defined set of policies and a promise of a local referendum (see below) on anything not on the list? Or, at the other extreme, a promise to uphold certain broad principles (including consultation) and measures for recall / recoverable proxy if s/he doesn’t? Or something in between? Bear in mind such undertakings would be voluntary. A candidate can sign a pledge in blood on a stack of Bibles but once elected is untouchable for the duration.

An online discussion/feedback/polling system to support/guide the candidate

This is the bit that really excites me. Every registered elector gets a confidential login (just like online banking). They can debate under a pseudonym but when it comes time to vote they must login using a secure ID and get to vote once. But is that binding? Or a guide? What should the candidate do / be able to do if it’s binding but goes against their strongly-held principles? I’m not talking minor issues here – not shop trading hours, maybe, but capital punishment or abortion or something else that touches a deeply held personal belief.

There’s a vast swathe of related issues with all of the above. Like what would be the trigger point for recall? A simple majority, a “super” majority? And just of those who voted (highly unstable) or of the entire electorate (possibly impossible to make happen).

Stop moaning, start suggesting. Let’s see if we can’t create something that works the way we want it to, initially within the existing system, then (when there’s ufficient numbers of accountable MPs), changes the system itself.
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September 20, 2010 2:11pm
Redbaiter

“if someone could enlighten me as to what the term “progressive” actually means I would appreciate it.”

There is some good reading on the subject at this url Lofty-

http://www.thepatriotsflag.com/2010/01/progressivism-faq-post/

but for a more succinct if somewhat cynical view, (nevertheless pretty accurate) you could try here-

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/what_the_progressives_want.html
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September 20, 2010 2:23pm
joana

I wonder how much support Matt Jones actually has in ChCh given so many of his supporters would have been from ”Beyond Resistance.” I doubt whether many people in ChCh are interested in all this at this time…If there are issues and I am told there are, they will be sorted out by genuine people not by these grandstanders. I was just reminded last night that many people in ChCh are still carrying injuries from the quake. Jones is the ultimate parasite.
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September 20, 2010 2:43pm
Nomestradamus

Rex:

Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to explore your proposals (and those of Pete) in any detail, but here’s my soundbites:

1. Isn’t the problem (and this is something you and I have discussed before) that candidates are beholden to their political party masters?

2. If you agree with this problem definition, doesn’t the solution revolve around electing candidates who are truly independent and not subject to party-whipping (party-whipping, er, of the non-Panty Slut Boy variety)?

3. If you’re with me so far, then at this stage (still open-minded) I’d personally favour forcing increased disclosure pre-election, rather than trying to set up some direct democracy system. So we encourage independent candidates but force them (and party political candidates) to publicly state their position on distinct isses.

4. In my view, at the moment we don’t have effective pre-election disclosure, or anything close to it. Pre-election debates are so tedious as they involve an opening statement, a patsy question about the economy, ad-break, an obligatory question on the Treaty, ad-break, a question about health, ad-break, a closing statement. Nothing on which the viewing public can discern any relevant positions. In the case of political party candidates, any position would be subject to the whims of the party system anyway (how many idealistic maiden speeches have we heard that have led to precisely nothing)?
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September 20, 2010 2:49pm
bereal

Why do some posters here still respond to the specious light weight arguments that MNIJ presents.
He is a good name caller and abuser of others which seems to get a rise out of some.
Ignore him and he will go elsewhere.
After all, he has a very pronounced small man syndrome, being under 5ft 7ins himself.
Try as hard as you can jack, but you’ll always be just a shorty.
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September 20, 2010 2:50pm
Repton

Who is Christine O’Donnell?

Who cares?

Best response yet.

Maybe she’ll win, maybe she won’t, but nothing said here will have any effect…
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September 20, 2010 3:04pm
Pete George

The candidate commits to a written pledge of compliance

I like it, but compliance to what? A tightly defined set of policies and a promise of a local referendum (see below) on anything not on the list? Or, at the other extreme, a promise to uphold certain broad principles (including consultation) and measures for recall / recoverable proxy if s/he doesn’t? Or something in between? Bear in mind such undertakings would be voluntary. A candidate can sign a pledge in blood on a stack of Bibles but once elected is untouchable for the duration.

I tend more towards “a promise to uphold certain broad principles”. Ultimately an MP has to be able to vote to their conscience. For this system to work an MP should have the flexibility to vote the way they see fit – but their conscience should carefully consider the direction indicated by the electorate.

If they voted against the wishes of the electorate then they should state in advance they intend to and explain why, to give an opportunity to debate that decision.

Contracts/pledges can be useful but not foolproof. You have to accept some human fallibility, but most often god faith should be sufficient. If an MP pissed off the electorate too much at least they wouldn’t last more than one term.

So a good faith agreement, like many employment contracts work in practice.

The candidate selection should be repeated each election, so if an MP becomes less effective or stuffs up, or a brighter better candidate fronts up, then you get a a better result, rather than the current problem with cobweb MPs.
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September 20, 2010 3:06pm
Rex Widerstrom

Nomestradamus says:

1. Isn’t the problem (and this is something you and I have discussed before) that candidates are beholden to their political party masters?

Yes (and we must catch up soon)… and after the Gerry Brownlee Empowering (Emperor of All He Surverys) Act, I think most people are weaking up to that fact as the red or green or blue scales fall from their eyes.

So we encourage independent candidates but force them (and party political candidates) to publicly state their position on distinct isses.

That’d be the ideal, but how do we deal with the unforeseen? Stuff that arises mid term? US banks lending to people who haven’t a hope of repaying and bringing our economy down round our ankles in the process? Mad US imperialists invading tinpot dictatorships and asking us to join in? All that sort of thing.

That’s why I tend towards (and I see above that Pete George does also) a set of principles. NZF had no policy when I stepped in, but when put on the spot by the media its Founding Principles almost always gave me a good steer as I was making it all up on the fly 😀
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September 20, 2010 3:35pm
Inventory2

@ Rex – what point was there in NZ First having a set of founding principles when the leader just made it up as he went along? Sheesh, he used to make a big song and dance about the fact that NZF was the only political party not beholden to big money, but THAT principle sure went out the window!
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September 20, 2010 3:57pm
eszett

Paul Henry’s acceptance speech:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv/4145576/Paul-Henrys-outrageous-awards-speech

Love it!
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September 20, 2010 4:02pm
Nookin

“Beyond Resistance is a collective of revolutionary class struggle anarchists in Otautahi/Christchurch, Aotearoa, who have come together in the hope of creating a coherent and organised anarchist presence in our area. Our name reflects our intended approach to struggle — a visible and constructive anarchism that goes beyond mere reaction, both in the workplace and the community.”

Does anyone see the inherent contradiction in this statement?
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September 20, 2010 4:07pm
slightlyrighty

Quadruple amputee swims English Channel

Saw this headline and thought “What a clever Dick!”
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September 20, 2010 4:08pm
Mark Petersen

“Rodders (90) Says:

September 20th, 2010 at 10:15 am
Awoke this morning to Mary Wilson’s voice on the radio. The buzzer alarm would have been a more agreeable sound.

On Morning Report, it was stated that Peter Dunne believes ACT’s problems could provide his party with more voters. MMP’s opportunist has tried alliances with ethnic minorities, pentecostals and shooters & fishers. Who is he yet to woo – marxists, marijuana law reformers and social creditors ?”

Rodders are you saying here that Act party members are “..marxists, marijuana law reformers and social creditors” ??
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September 20, 2010 5:13pm
krazykiwi

As the UK’s financial woes continue, the rich-prick envy knives are starting to come out:

UK public sector pay: 9,000 on public payroll are paid more than the Prime Minister

More than 9,000 public sector employees earn more than the Prime Minister, according to most comprehensive analysis of state pay levels ever undertaken.

In a stark illustration of the financial rewards available to workers in the NHS, schools and police forces, the study found a total of 9,187 earning more than the £142,500 paid to David Cameron. There are also 38,000 who earn more than £100,000 a year.

The study, by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism for the BBC’s Panorama programme, is the first to put an overall total on the number of state employees earning more than the Prime Minister. The figure is substantially higher than previous estimates suggested by surveys of civil servants, council or NHS workers.
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September 20, 2010 5:21pm
jaba

This is what Jimbo Anderton has said and reported by the CHCH Press .. he wants wood to be used in the reconstruction of CHCH .. I wonder where he got his facts from???

“Wood was environmentally friendly, energy efficient and recent New Zealand research showed building with wood could be 8 per cent cheaper than using steel or reinforced concrete, Anderton said.

“Given our very recent experience in Christchurch, appropriately designed wooden buildings built for residential and commercial use can also be more earthquake-proof and fire-resistant,” he said”

The only “fact” could be the price but even then I would dispute it .. a steel framed house takes a fraction of the time put up, is MORE than fire resistant, can take an earthquake at over 9 .. trial results are available, is 100% recyclable and a shit load lighter.
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September 20, 2010 5:31pm
MikeNZ

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/09/is-it-racist-to-criticize-islam.html

Lovely looking lass…
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September 20, 2010 5:43pm
krazykiwi

Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Lovely to look at… and amazing to listen to: intelligent, considered, gracious and obviously principled.
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September 20, 2010 5:49pm
Rex Widerstrom

Inventory2 asks:

@ Rex – what point was there in NZ First having a set of founding principles when the leader just made it up as he went along?

Well that wasn’t the plan obviously… if you’re lured into a restaurant by the delicious sounding menu on the window and the chef serves you a s**t sandwich, would you say the fault lies with the menu? 😀
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September 20, 2010 6:03pm
tom hunter

….in the hope of creating a coherent and organised anarchist presence

I always regarded Rick belonging to an “anarchist club” to be a lovely little joke by the writers, but when I see statements like that it simply serves as more evidence that satire may be redundant in politics.
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September 20, 2010 6:12pm
dad4justice

Very interesting thread. Next step stage two.
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September 20, 2010 6:45pm
reid

Deborah Coddington takes Horton’s usual place today on Monday Politics on RadioLeftWing Nine-to-Noon and makes some excellent points, such as:

a) Rodney should stand aside and pass the leadership to Boscowan who is (a) a safe pair of hands and (b) will campaign for ACT and not for himself.

b) the current leaks aren’t designed to get Garrett they’re designed to get Rodney and it hasn’t worked this time and therefore it’s likely to continue.
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September 20, 2010 7:13pm
Pete George

It does seem to be continuing, openly for a bit of a change:

Peter Tashkoff, the next list candidate after Ms Calvert, said it was possible Mr Hide would lead the party into the next election “but if he does it will be the last one for the party”.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10674728
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September 20, 2010 7:30pm
krazykiwi

Pastor who threatened to burn Korans told to pay police bill

US pastor Terry Jones, who threatened to burn copies of the Koran, has been told he must pay $180,000 (£115,000) for security costs triggered by the controversy

The city of Gainesville, Florida said that local police agencies spent more than a month working on security plans to ensure the community close to the planned site of the burning was safe.

Mr Jones sparked outrage when he announced his plan to burn the Muslim holy text on the anniversary of the September, 11, 2001, attacks. He eventually agreed to abandon the idea after pressure from Barack Obama and other world leaders.

I believe the Koran burning threat was stupid and unnecessarily inflammatory, and said so at the time.

But there’s also a right to protest in a free society, and we’ve seen plenty of protests against all sorts of things in the US.

Have all past protest organisers received the security bill?

Will all future protest organisers receive the security bill?

Or is this just another opportunity to target anything ‘right’ and/or ‘Christian’ ?
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September 20, 2010 7:43pm
reid

“But there’s also a right to protest in a free society, and we’ve seen plenty of protests against all sorts of things in the US.”

Yeah exactly, kk.

This is billed to the democracy in action account, it is not a transferrable user-pays charge. Not for this. What the hell are they thinking, anyway. Perhaps their PR Advisor took Monday off…
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September 20, 2010 7:49pm
krazykiwi

From the Garrett thread as this is getting O/T … I’m with Rex on the need for a two tier prison system. We’ve talked about this offline a while back. There is a glaring lack of distinction between intentional rehabilitation, and protection of citizens from those deemed a risk in perpetuity. We’re left to assume the intention by the seriousness of the offence and the sentence handed down. That’s not good enough.

Because of this last of explicit distinction hardcore libertarians regard anyone incarcerated as being subject to inhumane restriction of personal liberty, while hardcore authoritarians regard anyone being released as evidence of distain for the welfare of the public. The rest of just wonder, in equal measure, if we’ll be mugged or wrongly accused and subsequently dragged before the courts.

We need a clear distinction between offending and offenders that offer the hope of rehabilitation, and those for which the best option for society is long term protection offered by life behind bars. My original comment on this read.

I’d like to see a two tier prison system. One focused on ‘tough love’ style rehabilitation. Plenty of education opportunities, resources and support.. with the intention being to ‘convert’ the offender from being a public menace to a constructive member of society. Different styles of facility could be implemented – Maori focus, Christian focus, secular/trade/education focus etc. Participants in this system should be left with no doubts that they are living in the Hilton by comparison with the second system.

The second system would be designed to keep the public safe from serious, serial offenders who have abused their societal privileges. The second system would take the very worst of first-time offenders, plus those who have experienced the first system and once again restored to illegal behaviours. This system would demand labour of inmates to earn their keep. This should be ‘hard time’ and the conditions should be subsistence only.

If I had anything to do with crime and justice policy this is the system I’d propose and implement.
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September 20, 2010 8:12pm
Rex Widerstrom

krazy kiwi:

That’s eminently sensible. There’d naturally be a lot of debate (and probably never widespread agreement) about certain cases and which “tier” they were assigned to, but for the majority it’d be fairly obvious and, I think, non-controversial.

I’m sorry to distract from the idea but I’m just gobsmacked by a quote I’ve just had pointed out to me offline. It seems to have only appeared in the ODT, so is not widely known. The paper asked a number of “law’n’order” figures what fate Weatherston might meet in jail. Newbold thinks he might get a hard time from inmates and staff alike. Workman says Weatherston’s “”personality disorders” would be problematic not only for inmates but also for the authorities”.

And Garth McVicar says he:

…doubted Weatherston would be sent to a maximum security facility, although he thought his crime warranted it.

“Even though this man has committed one of New Zealand’s most atrocious crimes, his history as a hard-core recidivist is not there.”

Excuse me?! First Emery, now Weatherston. Seems it doesn’t matter if it’s murder, if you’re a nice white middle class man on your first offence, the screws should fluff your pillows for you according to the SST.
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September 20, 2010 8:22pm
Viking2

KK. good idea.
Rex , McVicar is right. He’s not a recidivist offender. Not that that makes his crime less heinous. He is just batshit mad and should be locked up for that reason.

Workman is probably right. Weatherston will be a manipulating arsewipe as he has already shown. which is the other reason he should be locked up tight.

One of the problems is that he is a manipulator and so will eventually manipulate a weaker person, whether that is inmates or a screw. He won’t be able to stop himself and the system will not stop him unless he is in hard core detention.
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September 20, 2010 8:36pm
Viking2

. FTAs not so good

Many people hope that a Free Trade Agreement with America will help New Zealand. The trouble is those countries with FTAs with America are actually growing their trade less than those countries without free trade agreements, HuffPo’s Lori Wallach reports. They’re a bad idea generally. They are an enabler for lobbyists and bullies.

The growth rate of U.S. exports to the countries with whom we do NOT have Free Trade Agreements (FTAs) has been over double that to U.S. FTA partners. That stunning finding should put an end to recent Obama administration talk about reviving three NAFTA-style FTAs leftover from the Bush era

http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/mondays-top-10-nz-mint-neat-pensions-trick-we-shoot-bambi-chilling-fog-competitive-devaluations-dilb
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September 20, 2010 8:39pm
Redbaiter

Sorry Krazy, (and Rex) I can’t agree with the two phase approach. I’ll tell you why-

We never used to have this much crime. Its a relatively modern thing. IMHO its not down to any other cause other than the attacks on society’s moral base by Progressives- by means such as hollywood movie and the television industry, control of the education system, and promotion of the idea that any crime committed is our collective fault rather than the fault of the individual, or in another dimension, the idea that racial inequality removes the moral barriers to crime. Criminals that are not pathologically so arise through poor parenting and poor parents allow the above mentioned influences to over ride their parenting responsibilities. Once again, progressives are to blame for their unceasing attacks on the family unit and their downgrading of the importance of the nurturing role of mothers.

Therefore the overwhelming level of crime today arises because of a dysfunctional society. The way to stop crime is to restore society from its dysfunctional state which in general terms means reversing the “advances” made by the Progressives over the last few decades.

In the meantime, I resent paying tax to rehabilitate fucked up little criminal bastards because their damn parents have totally failed to raise them as a parent should raise a child. I could relate to you any number of reasons why I consider we are in an emergency situation but I don’t have the space. If you disagree, that claim will have to stand untested for now. In the meantime, my view is that we need to take urgent action to protect law abiding NZers and get the mother fucking little bastards and the more adult offenders too off the streets. I do not want to hear any damn bullshit about rehabilitation. I want the fucking safety that I have in Singapore and I want it as soon as possible.

In short we lock them up and we continue locking them up until society is restored to a functional state and then there will be no need for special measures such as rehabilitation or a large amount of cells. We simply restore morality and the whole problem goes away, or at the very least becomes manageable, as it is in Singapore.

That is why I attack the Progressives. One because I don’t like their fucking totalitarian approach to politics, two because their politics are completely wrong, and three because I want relief from intolerable levels of crime.

Get rid of the Progressive influence in society, restore morality and individual responsibility and crime will fade to a fraction of what it is today. Then if you like, I’ll be ready to talk about airy fairy stuff, because it won’t matter a hell of a lot. Given that crime will be so much less, the financial resources will be correspondingly small.
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September 20, 2010 8:39pm
Pete George

“Get rid of the Progressive influence in society” – and you accuse anyone who disagrees with you Progressive –

“we lock them up and we continue locking them up until society is restored to a functional state”

“because I don’t like their fucking totalitarian approach”.

Are you still talking about hanging everyone you want to get rid of? Then you will really “restore society from its dysfunctional state”.

One thing you are correct about, then “crime will be so much less, the financial resources will be correspondingly small.”

Population, one? Unless you retain one woman to patriarch.
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September 20, 2010 8:53pm
MikeNZ

Why not both.
Build new stock (with trade/classrooms) for those we can rehabilitate and house the recidivists and hardcore in the old stock.
A 1000 bed unit on both islands with 500 borstal attached to start.
That means a proper commitment to staffing and resources.
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September 20, 2010 8:55pm
Redbaiter

“you accuse anyone who disagrees with you Progressive (sic)”

Thanks for reading Pete. Pity your crippled Progressive mind (apparently) prevented you from understanding most of what I said.
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September 20, 2010 8:55pm
MikeNZ

http://www.topcountrymusicvideos.com/toby-keith-youtube-videos/?tubepress_video=DWrMeBR8W-c&tubepress_page=1

never liked country that much but this one is ok.

We could play country 24/7 to the inmates?
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September 20, 2010 8:57pm
Pete George

I understand. Redbaiter, at your most maniacal and unrealistic. My ancestors fought to protect us against people like you dream of being. Just stick to being cybernuts.
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September 20, 2010 9:03pm
reid

That is why I attack the Progressives. One because I don’t like their fucking totalitarian approach to politics, two because their politics are completely wrong, and three because I want relief from intolerable levels of crime.

Get rid of the Progressive influence in society, restore morality and individual responsibility and crime will fade to a fraction of what it is today. Then if you like, I’ll be ready to talk about airy fairy stuff, because it won’t matter a hell of a lot. Given that crime will be so much less, the financial resources will be correspondingly small.

But RB you said above the root cause isn’t the fact people do it, but because they’re influenced by propaganda. To which I reply, you’re quite right and personally, I wonder why more don’t awake. But re: your position, how can locking up everyone who does anything possibly alleviate a systemic issue? To deal with those, you need to change the system, and only then, attack the reason(s) why people were sucked into it, in the first place.
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September 20, 2010 9:06pm
Redbaiter

“My ancestors fought to protect us against people like you dream of being.”

They can’t have been much like you or they would have lost miserably.
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September 20, 2010 9:07pm
krazykiwi

@MikeNZ – Tier co-location could be an option. Key factors are very distinctive operations in each tier. One is comfortable, plenty of encouragement, resources and opportunities and a ‘tough love’ approach to rehabilitation. That’s the carrot. The stick is knowing what the alternative is like.. a place where recidivists and those who reject their rehabilitation are sent to work to pay their keep, and they’re kept in isolation for the benefit of society.

Red is right on this though… too many ‘customers’ to either tier of this system would exist because we have a society where the personal responsibility is dismissed as overly conservative. That needs to be fixed in parallel.
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September 20, 2010 9:08pm
Viking2

Sweden’s far right anti-immigration party wins 20 seats
September 20, 2010 – 4:54PM

Reinfeldt’s win spelled a decisive end to the rival Social Democrats’ 80-year domination of Swedish politics and their role as caretakers of the country’s famous cradle-to-grave welfare state.

The party, which for the first time had created a coalition of leftwing parties to increase its chances of winning power, suffered a historic loss, winning just 30.9 per cent of the vote, down from 35.3 per cent in 2006, when its score was already one of its weakest on record.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/swedens-far-right-antiimmigration-party-wins-20-seats-20100920-15jbp.html
Another tiny nail.

The far-right was celebrating its historic entry in parliament
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September 20, 2010 9:09pm
Redbaiter

Reid-

I did not say that locking them up was the solution, and I did not imply that jailing people was the solution to the Progressive problem. Just some temporary respite until the Progressive syndrome that is the root cause of the problem has been dealt with on a political level. I more or less said what you are saying.
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September 20, 2010 9:10pm
MikeNZ

Great news isn’t it Viking2?

I think the Swedes are starting to get where their country is heading as this article on the Copts in Egypt details.
Problem is they’ve let them in, now what do they do with them?

http://www.think-israel.org/ramelah.invasiveislam.html
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September 20, 2010 9:20pm
MikeNZ

KK
We have to start somewhere and this is the best option longterm I think as I’ve said before on KiwiBlog.
Red is absolutely correct and I agree wholeheartedly, but we have to move in a direction.

The quick answer is build two prisons a year for 3 yrs (concrete modules) and make 3 strikes apply retrospectively to all and every crime.
So everyone on 2 hits+ gets no parole and sits the full sentence next time.
Now that would need a few beds but do you think people would get the message?

But we can’t afford it.
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September 20, 2010 9:31pm
Pete George

Mike, how do you propose to “Get rid of the Progressive influence in society”? That seems to be the key to Redbaiter’s proposal. Do you ban anyone deemed a “progressive” from politics?
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September 20, 2010 9:35pm
Redbaiter

Tea Parties.
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September 20, 2010 9:37pm
dad4justice

Progressive types drink latte so than can farte out crap.

Lets have a Kiwi Tea Party.
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September 20, 2010 9:39pm
Pete George

How are Tea Parties that don’t exist going to remove and replace all current politicians, journalists, teachers, lecturers and professors? And who will they be replaced with? Immigrants from Singapore?
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September 20, 2010 9:43pm
Redbaiter

“How are Tea Parties that don’t exist”

They never existed in the US a short time ago. Now there are embryonic groups in Australia Canada and the UK. We’re coming after you Pete, and we will get you and your damn fucked up destructive ideology out of our lives. Just a matter of time.
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September 20, 2010 9:48pm
dad4justice

Just imagine a positive go forward kiwi nation petey gal once we have broken all the insidious manacles of progressive politics. Normal decent folk have had enough of the bullshit. Time for BIG change.
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September 20, 2010 9:51pm

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