General Debate 13 September 2010

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Brian Harmer

One
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September 13, 2010 9:57am
Inventory2

Two
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September 13, 2010 9:59am
J Mex

Ah, I do love the old ‘counting knobheads’ game.

Still two…
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September 13, 2010 10:01am
krazykiwi

“Sell a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man how to fish, you ruin a wonderful business opportunity.”

— Karl Marx
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September 13, 2010 10:01am
Yvette

Three -this could get about as boring as not having General Debate at all
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September 13, 2010 10:01am
Yvette

and the winner is krazykiwi
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September 13, 2010 10:02am
Viking2

Its raining again
more importantly the religious nutters aren’t here yet.
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September 13, 2010 10:04am
Viking2

I see the crims managed to make an effort for the quake. Yep they moved into the shelters with their drugs and stealing.

Earthquake shelters tell of gangs, theft – and great helpers
By Michael Dickison
5:30 AM Monday Sep 13, 2010

Christchurch earthquake-shelter residents say they have had to deal with gangs, drug searches and theft at welfare centres as they enter their second week displaced from their homes.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10672980

there’s always scum ain’t there.
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September 13, 2010 10:07am
Viking2

Maybe we should intoduce sharia to deal with these scum?
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September 13, 2010 10:08am
david

It would appear that I have in some way upset Trev “the Muss” Mallard over at Red Alert as my comments now vanish into the black hole which has been created. So I could ask but can’t be seen to have asked just what is the role of an opposition MP in an earthquake zone and what can they do that isn’t on offer from the highly trained and professional people on the ground as part of the co-ordinated emergency response structure and just what was Trev offering that demanded he be there on the ground.

Anyhoo, it really raised a laugh to read this comment in one of his posts:

“Was in house reoccupied for first night since the earthquake.
Woken just after six by quake strong enough to cause use of portaloo on the street. But wasn’t on 9am RadioNZ news.
Would have been any other time.”

Is it just me or is it bizarre that Trev would expect his toilet habits to make the National News in a disaster zone?
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September 13, 2010 10:12am
grumpyoldhori

If David started a thread for bible bashers each day, believe that will keep them out of general comments ?
We need a muslim on the bible bashing thread, that would wind the religious nutters up.
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September 13, 2010 10:13am
Don the Kiwi

Careful Viking 2. You’ve introduced a word boredering on religious 😉
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September 13, 2010 10:13am
Viking2

Don, obviouslytheyhave no gainful employment or they wouldn’t have the time to fill screeds of cyberscreen space.

Grumpy that’s a great idea. Just need DPFto do that and demerit those that gill GD with their mindless religious rubbish.
Not that i’m saying religion isn’t valid, just would be better somewhere else rather than on GD.
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September 13, 2010 10:19am
krazykiwi

more importantly the religious nutters aren’t here yet.

Hey.. I’m here! Moving on …

Welfare: the ‘lifestyle choice’ that Britons must make

Telegraph View: the debt crisis is forcing the Government to make drastic cuts to a public sector that was already unsustainable in an ultra-competitive global economy.

The era of claiming state benefits as a “lifestyle choice” is coming to an end, George Osborne said this week. That was not an off-the-cuff remark by the Chancellor of the Exchequer: almost in the same breath, he announced that the Treasury was seeking to reduce welfare spending by a further £4 billion, in addition to the cuts of £11 billion already scheduled. Truly, we live in remarkable times. A few years ago, even hinting at such a deep reduction would have been political suicide. Indeed, any Chancellor who applied the dismissive phrase “lifestyle choice” to certain work-shy benefits claimants would have been pilloried for his insensitivity. Not now.

The public mood has changed. First, most people accept in principle that our annual welfare bill of £192 billion must be drastically – and rapidly – reduced if the British economy is to be salvaged. Having ring-fenced health spending, the Coalition cannot possibly be expected to carry the additional ludicrous burden of supporting five million people of working age on benefits. Nor does the electorate want it to do so.

During the years of prosperity, long-term welfare dependency was often viewed as someone else’s problem. The abuse of incapacity benefit was deplored, but not with any ferocity: welfare scroungers were portrayed as comic characters in television programmes such as The Royle Family and Shameless. Meanwhile, any attempt to distinguish between the deserving and the undeserving poor was condemned as Victorian moralism by the New Labour project.
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September 13, 2010 10:20am
Le Grande Fromage

Make a man a fire and he will stay warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will stay warm for the rest of his life.

– Pol Pot
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September 13, 2010 10:20am
Pete George

Problem with trying to separate religion from politics, many here keep confusing a religion with politics. They keep warning of an Islamic takeover of the world, but how many strong Islamic states are in a position to take over anyone? About zero.
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September 13, 2010 10:31am
Rick Rowling

How to deal with “First Post”ers when running a blog…

For whatever reason message boards on sites like Fark are forever plagued with morons posting “First Post” anytime a link is posted. Fark automatically turns the words “first post” into the word “boobies” and resets the timestamp on the message to some time in the future so that it isn’t the first post anymore.
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September 13, 2010 10:32am
MikeNZ

Viking2
Maybe we should introduce sharia to deal with these scum?

What do you mean exactly by that?
Chop their hands off?
Flog them?
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September 13, 2010 10:40am
AlphaKiwi

If you give a man a fish, he’ll eat for a day, but if you teach a man to fish, then he’s got to get a fishing licence, but he doesn’t have any money so he’s got to get a job and he has to get into the social security system and pay taxes. And now you’re going to audit the poor cocksucker, because he’s not really good with math. They’ll pull the IRS van up to your house and take all of your shit. They’ll take your black velvet Elvis, and your Batman toothbrush and your penis pump, which all goes up for auction with the burden of proof on you, because you forgot to carry the one. Because you were just worried about eating a fucking fish and you couldn’t even cook the fish because you needed a permit for an open flame. And then the health department is going to start asking you a lot of questions about “where are you going to dump the scales and the guts? This is not a sanitary environment!” – Doug Stanhope
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September 13, 2010 10:42am
MikeNZ

You beat me KK
good link.

Just for Viking2
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/09/islam_continues_to_strengthen.html

Now this is a turn up for the books
AQ homosexual Saudi Diplomat causing some dissonance for the Obama people haha.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/09/saudi_diplomat_seeking_asylum.html

Sad we just financed and aided and abetted the setting up of two Islamic constitutions (Iraq & Afghanistan) that make Sharia Law the constitutional law of those territories and thereby sentence Homosexuals of both genders to death.

Yeah whilst we on Kiwiblog get people behaving stupidly and calling for Sharia law here for people who’s behaviour they don’t like.
Go figure!
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September 13, 2010 10:46am
MikeNZ

Viking2
GD stands for general debate doesn’t it?
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September 13, 2010 10:47am
krazykiwi

@Pete – military takeovers are so passe these days. So ‘about zero’ is correct. Qadhafi say there are signs that Allah will grant islam victory in Europe. Immigration and breeding are the keys, not armed conquest.
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September 13, 2010 10:47am
Yvette

“If David started a thread for bible bashers each day, believe that will keep them out of general comments ?”

A seperate religious debate thread
Wednesday, February 10th, 2010 at 8:22 am
A couple of people have commented to me that they are finding the daily general debate threads are being dominated by religious debates, which of course tend to never get resolved.
Their suggestion was that we have two general debate posts a day. One “General Religious Debate” and one “General Debate”, with the latter out of bounds for religious comments and debates.
I don’t spend a lot of time in General Debates myself, so unsure how much of an issue this is, and whether the proposed solution is necessary or preferred. On the face of it, it seems sensible and in fact it mirrors what we did on Usenet many years ago – set up a nz.soc.religion alongside nz.general.

I can’t quite remember why it fell over.
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September 13, 2010 10:50am
Pete George

While going for a drive in the Central Otago hills yesterday I chanced upon three wind turbines. I was able to drive right up to them, interested in seeing just how rowdy they were. I was surprised how un-noisy, couldn’t hear them at all from inside the car. From outside standing right underneath the noise, mostly from the generating gear rather than the blades, was far from obtrusive.

They didn’t seem to be a blot on the landscape either, not on a skyline. And interestingly, nearby was a small hydro unit, possibly part of a complementary generation test.

Re separate threads, should one be called Open Mike? For his daily propaganda.
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September 13, 2010 10:52am
joe90

All doubt has been removed: The illustrated tea party dictionary.
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September 13, 2010 11:02am
Jack5

New topic for a mo…

What is the Bank of NZ up to with the value of the NZ dollar?

While export industries (with the possible exception of dairying) sweat to keep profitable, the kiwi dollar has jumped towards 73 US cents. The NZ Herald reports today Mike Jones, BNZ strategist (presumably currency) saying:

According to our fair value model, the kiwi’s not over-valued yet, and there’s more room for it to gain…

Fair value? Tell that to grape growers, beef and sheep farmers, tourist operators. The high kiwi extends the bubble in dairy farming delaying the painful correction that will come when those who bought land at top prices are squeezed out when dairy prices ease.

A cynic might note that the trading banks clip the ticket on foreign money pouring into NZ and when they are repaying foreign loans they obviously want a high kiwi dollar.

This snippet from the Statistics Department may help us keep keep our feet on the ground:

Net international liabilities (of NZ) were $173.3 billion (93.7 percent of GDP) at 30 September 2009, compared with $171.7 billion (93.3 percent of GDP) at 30 June 2009.

Our current account balance has improved, but is still well in deficit. Excluding the settlement of the trading banks’ big retrospective tax bill, our deficit was still 6 per cent of GDP in the September 2009 year. That’s with bonanza dairy prices and help from an oil field (now finished I believe) in the Tasman.

Our continuing imbalance with the rest of the world is going to bite us in the arse. It reminds me of the earthquake. Always a possibility, but then, wham. It also reminds me of South Canterbury Finance. Yes, it is solid, said the auditor and the rating agency, and even reputable financial advisers were taken in. The auditor and the ratings agency might now consider diversifying to currency forecasts.

If the kiwi dollar’s exchange rates are largely those of a perceived Aussie dollar-related punt, in turn affected by international economic growth confidence, experts need a better term for their forecasts of value than “fair”.
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September 13, 2010 11:14am
Rufus

Vikin2, Yvette et al.

It seems you’re the religious nutters today – read your posts again, then notice how you’re the first, and only ones so far harping on about GD threads being ruined by said religious nutters, and notice the irony…

yawn
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September 13, 2010 11:19am
Yvette

@ Rufus
Indicating that what was been suggested, a separate Religious General debate, has been tried before and abandoned, does not make me a religious nutter – other things may.
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September 13, 2010 11:32am
Rufus

@ Yvette – ok, sorry. Edit: “Viking 2 et all… etc etc
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September 13, 2010 12:06pm
krazykiwi

Some cool animal pics …
Shark pictures show amazing killing display

Giant spider eating a bird caught on camera

Leopard savaging a crocodile caught on camera

.. and unrelated..

Mafia cash in on lucrative EU wind farm handouts – especially in Sicily

An ill wind is blowing over Italy’s green revolution, as the Mafia seek to capitalise on generous grants for renewable energy.

They rise up high above the sun-scorched countryside, looking out over hilltop villages, palm trees, neatly-tended vineyards and olive groves.

But for all their promises of a clean, green future, Italy’s windfarms have now acquired a somewhat dirtier whiff – as the latest industry to be infiltrated by the country’s mobsters.

Attracted by the prospect of generous grants designed to boost the use of alternative energies, the so-called “eco Mafia” has begun fraudulently creaming off millions of euros from both the Italian government and the European Union.
:::
“Nothing earns more than a wind farm,” said Edoardo Zanchini, an environmental campaigner who has investigated Mafia infiltration of the industry. “Anything that creates wealth interests the Mafia.”

It is not just Italian criminals, however, who have spotted the potential for corruption. Recent research by Kroll, the international corporate security firm, has discovered examples all over Europe of so-called “clean energy” schemes being used to line criminals’ pockets rather than save the planet. Some involve windmills that stand derelict or are simply never built, while others are used to launder profits from other crime enterprises.
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September 13, 2010 12:08pm
Gosman

The leftists over at The Standard are getting off on the pseudo-intellectual book ‘The spirit level’ again. This time they are trying to claim that people from the right are running scared because of the findings. They even linked to this site as evidence of this (very rare that they dare to link here).

I do love reading The Standard sometimes as I find their pretentions for intellectual superiority over everyone to be so very funny.
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September 13, 2010 12:10pm
Kris K

Yvette 10:50 am,

A seperate religious debate thread […]
I can’t quite remember why it fell over.

I think it fell over, Yvette, because it is almost impossible to remove religion, or at least religious views (morality & values, etc), from politics, and those things associated with politics …

Things like: formulating laws, crime & punishment, policies relating to the family, homosexuality, prostitution, Israel, Anti-Semitism, Islam, Obama, GW Bush, Communism, Socialism, Atheism, Atheistic leaders (Helen Klark), Non Atheistic leaders (Angela Merkel), the Universe (Creationism vs Evolution), Acts of God (earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, pestilence, plague), Anthropogenic Global Warming (a religion with its own devotees), the Holocaust, Holocaust deniers, Hitler, why some people kill, and why others don’t, why is there hate in the world, death related topics, abortion, euthanasia … feel free to add more.

And lets not forget many of the non-GD topics DPF starts draw on any number of the above from the get-go – for example, today’s topic headed “Fidel up close”, where Fidel Castro is speaking about anti-semitism to Muslim leader Ahmadinejad. Hard to avoid introducing religion into that one!

Why try to avoid “religious” topics when we ALL have a religious outlook of some sort? – even atheism/Darwinism is a religion of sorts; with their own ‘high priests’ and their own ‘faithful devotees’.
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September 13, 2010 12:16pm
Viking2

Rufus; problem with religious nutters and cranks is that they never ever conceed that they are. Simply unable to recognise the truth of their behavoir.

Mike in the case of the scum; both.

and Rufus that’s just today. Perhaps (no I should n’t say this for it will encourage them), they have seen the light and realise it pisses the rest of us off.
They will be back. Mikenz is lurking and trying.

And Mikenz: yes it does and that’s not religious Debate.
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September 13, 2010 12:20pm
Rufus

Viking2

“problem with religious nutters and cranks is that they never ever conceed that they are. Simply unable to recognise the truth of their behavoir.”

Funny you should say that – since a lot of the “we don’t like religious nutters/religion” ppl are just as fervent/foaming at the mouth in their anti-religion crusade.

Your statement above is amusingly ironic.

Just saying…
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September 13, 2010 12:34pm
Pete George

I agree with Kris that religion is inextricably linked to many other topics – a notable exception being earthquakes. And even atheism/Darwinism is a religion of sorts; with their own ‘high priests’ and their own ‘faithful devotees’ is nonsensical – I guess people who have with their own ‘high priests’ and ‘faithful devotees’ can’t understand that many people don’t think that way.
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September 13, 2010 12:45pm
krazykiwi

After a Year of Setbacks, U.N. Looks to Take Charge of World’s Agenda

After a year of humiliating setbacks, United Nations Secretary General Ban ki-Moon and about 60 of his top lieutenants — the top brass of the entire U.N. system — spent their Labor Day weekend at a remote Austrian Alpine retreat, discussing ways to put their sprawling organization in charge of the world’s agenda.

Details concerning the two-day, closed-door sessions in the comfortable village of Alpbach were closely guarded. Nonetheless, position papers for the meeting obtained by Fox News indicate that the topics included:

– how to restore “climate change” as a top global priority after the fiasco of last year’s Copenhagen summit;

– how to continue to try to make global redistribution of wealth the real basis of that climate agenda, and widen the discussion further to encompass the idea of “global public goods”;

– how to keep growing U.N. peacekeeping efforts into missions involved in the police, courts, legal systems and other aspects of strife-torn countries;

– how to capitalize on the global tide of migrants from poor nations to rich ones, to encompass a new “international migration governance framework”;

– how to make “clever” use of new technologies to deepen direct ties with what the U.N. calls “civil society,” meaning novel ways to bypass its member nation states and deal directly with constituencies that support U.N. agendas.
As one underlying theme of the sessions, the top U.N. bosses seemed to be grappling often with how to cope with the pesky issue of national sovereignty, which — according to the position papers, anyway — continued to thwart many of their most ambitious schemes, especially when it comes to many different kinds of “global governance.”

Not coincidentally, the conclave of bureaucrats also saw in “global governance” a greater role for themselves.
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September 13, 2010 12:53pm
Kris K

Rufus 12:34 pm,

Viking2 …

Your statement above is amusingly ironic.

Just saying…

Indeed, Rufus – although the irony is probably totally lost on V2.

… so rather than debating religious related issues, we’re debating about the debating of religious related issues – which Viking2 started himself in his 10:04 comment (the 7th comment of the day) where he said, “more importantly the religious nutters aren’t here yet.”

Irony squared 😉

So while the “religious nutters aren’t here yet”, there is certainly one silly old atheistic fool present … 🙂
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September 13, 2010 12:54pm
Kris K

krazykiwi 12:53 pm,

One World Government here we come …

I’m sure I’ve read about such things – but I better not mention the source lest I be accused by V2 of introducing ‘religious’ material 😉
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September 13, 2010 12:59pm
Pete George

If everyone in the world converted and followed the morality and laws of your preferred source would you be happy Kris?

Or would that be too One Worldish?
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September 13, 2010 1:06pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge1:06 pm,

If everyone in the world converted and followed the morality and laws of your preferred source would you be happy Kris?

Happy, Pete? … happy? – I’d be bloody estatic!
And I like how you implied free will choice into the bargain; well that’s how I read it, anyway.

Not only would the world be a better place, of course, but those who “signed up” would also be the recipients of out-of-this-world benefits. A win-win all round 🙂

PS Your solidarity in your 12:45 pm comment is appreciated 😉
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September 13, 2010 1:16pm
krazykiwi

@Kris – Humans are generally pretty power hungry. Those that regards themselves as worth of ruling us probably see any reason to limit their aspirations by geographic borders. In that sense global governance won’t appear one day.. it’ll just become progressively more visible. Unless we push back and protect our national sovereignty
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September 13, 2010 1:17pm
Don the Kiwi

PG @ 1.00 pm.

“…..if everyone converted……..”

People don’t have to convert Pete.
Knowledge of morality is not the exclusive property of religions, cults or organisations.
Humans intrisically know what is right or wrong – whether we follow that morality is up to the individual choice (free will)
But the knowledge is the imprint upon us of our Creator.

(Bit of a wind up, eh. That’ll get them going) 😆
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September 13, 2010 1:22pm
Pete George

Knowledge of morality is not the exclusive property of religions, cults or organisations.

Humans intrisically know what is right or wrong – whether we follow that morality is up to the individual choice (free will)

Good you mentioned that.

The larger the population and the larger the organisation the easier it is for people to remove themselves from moral responsibility.
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September 13, 2010 1:28pm
RRM

9/11 bereaved families group has no problem with the “mosque”/community centre… just sayin’:

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/focus-u-s-a/focus-u-s-a-sept-11-bereaved-families-group-we-support-efforts-to-build-nyc-islamic-center-1.313215
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September 13, 2010 1:32pm
Kris K

krazykiwi 1:17 pm,

Indeed.
One doesn’t need to go much past the example of the Roman Catholic church where, in past times, the pope had more political power than the governmental rulers of the time. This was the perversion of where the (RC) ‘church’ and the state were welded together as essentially one entity. Persecution of non-adherents was widespread (the Catholic Inquisition, etc). Another good reason why the ‘church’ and state should remain separate.

I believe this was a pre-curser to the system which will eventuate when there exists a (future) global government working in conjunction with a global (false) religious system to control the masses. I also believe many of the players will be the same entities from times past.

“Power currupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” – Never a truer word was spoken.

[Nothing personal, Don]
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September 13, 2010 1:36pm
Pete George

What makes you think an absolute religion wouldn’t corrupt? Human nature, power, greed – none have been absent from any religion that grows.
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September 13, 2010 1:50pm
Don the Kiwi

That’s OK Kris K.

You continue to demonstrate your prejudices and your appalling lack of knowledge of history.

“Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis…” 🙂
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September 13, 2010 1:53pm
Inventory2

For anyone else who’s sick of religion and climate change, Keeping Stock has a caption contest …

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/09/monday-caption-contest.html
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September 13, 2010 1:56pm
MikeNZ

Don
But the knowledge is the imprint upon us of our Creator.
(Bit of a wind up, eh. That’ll get them going) 😆

Quite correct Don, as something can’t come from nothing.

Nice one inventory.
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September 13, 2010 2:57pm
joe90

Who would like a Shadowhawk.
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September 13, 2010 3:33pm
joana

Wrong again PG. Earthquakes and religion are linked. It is a well known fact that after every big earthquake , church attendance greatly increases. Church car parks were full in ChCh on Sunday.
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September 13, 2010 4:00pm
Pete George

You’ve got me there Joanna, earthquakes and religion are linked, a number of Canterbury churches were empty on Sunday apart from a few loose bricks.

But I wouldn’t be surprised if church and lotto increase in popularity for a while. Hoping for their luck to translate into an economic windfall, and praying for no aftershocks?
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September 13, 2010 4:07pm
Steve

Joana,

The Churches fill up with those who need shelter and food. They can’t go to the Welfare Stations because those places are full of bludgers and scumbags wanting a free anything
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September 13, 2010 6:08pm
MyNameIsJack

Pete George (6,929) Says:

September 13th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Knowledge of morality is not the exclusive property of religions, cults or organisations.

Humans intrisically know what is right or wrong – whether we follow that morality is up to the individual choice (free will)

Good you mentioned that.

The larger the population and the larger the organisation the easier it is for people to remove themselves from moral responsibility.

The more secular a nation, the more generous its people are.

The less religious a state is, the less crime there is.

Odd, but true.
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September 13, 2010 6:40pm
jock

grumpyoldhori (1,352) Says:

September 13th, 2010 at 10:13 am
If David started a thread for bible bashers each day, believe that will keep them out of general comments ?
We need a muslim on the bible bashing thread, that would wind the religious nutters up.???
does this wind you up hori,bludging mongrel mob maoris
Hori some of your mongrel bro mates were trespassed in Chch for being dicks in a centre (STAND OVER BROS) their collective bludging feelings are hurt so now, they are now going to vote for the oldie jim boy,anderton because jim anderton loves bludging mongrel mob members , YOU GO JIM ANDERTON
into the best retirement home your troughing ways can secure.
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September 13, 2010 6:51pm
krazykiwi

The less religious a state is, the less crime there is. Odd, but true

What complete nonsense: Total crimes per capita. Let’s all move to Yemmen at #60 shall we? No? How about India at #59?

MNIJ – your crusade to rid the world of religion suggests some deep physiological issues. You should get some help. Seriously.
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September 13, 2010 7:01pm
reid

They’ll take your black velvet Elvis, and your Batman toothbrush and your penis pump, which all goes up for auction with the burden of proof on you, because you forgot to carry the one.

I can’t remember reading anything about the IRD taking my penis pump the last time I read the Income Tax Act, Alpha.

But I’m going to check again, because if there’s one thing I don’t wanna lose, it’s that.
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September 13, 2010 7:02pm
Chthoniid

@MikeNZ

Quite correct Don, as something can’t come from nothing.

Fortunately for cosmology, a singularity isn’t nothing.
OTOH, I think you’ve just asserted that the God of Abraham cannot possibly exist. Well done.
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September 13, 2010 7:23pm
Kris K

Chthoniid 7:23 pm,

Quite correct Don, as something can’t come from nothing.

OTOH, I think you’ve just asserted that the God of Abraham cannot possibly exist. Well done.

Of course, Evo-man, there is no problem if the God of Abraham (& Isaac, & Jacob) has always existed. And He, indeed, can make something from nothing – “And God said … and it was so.” – I’ve solved your “singularity” problem. No thanks required.
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September 13, 2010 7:37pm
Chthoniid

That would be a logic fail Kris.
You’re asserting that Yaweh is exempt from the rule that something comes from nothing. Bullshit. That’s just special pleading.

I’m not the one claiming that the existence of a singularity presents a cosmological problem.
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September 13, 2010 7:46pm
reid

“You’re asserting that Yaweh is exempt from the rule that something comes from nothing.”

In the same way the architect is exempt from what they build, Chthoniid. And it’s YHWH, you’re using the phonetic spelling.
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September 13, 2010 7:47pm
Repton

In the same way the architect is exempt from what they build, Chthoniid. And it’s YHWH.

In the case of an architect, it’s pretty easy to figure out where the architect came from…
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September 13, 2010 7:51pm
Chthoniid

Analogies don’t overcome the logical dilemma Kris. It’s that simple.

There is a regress problem you introduce by invoking God, that collides with the claim that something cannot come from nothing.
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September 13, 2010 7:53pm
reid

“There is a regress problem you introduce by invoking God, that collides with the claim that something cannot come from nothing.”

Why?

(Sorry to butt in but it’s what we do…)

G-d transcends the universe. That means He is both of it and outside of it, at the same time.

Genesis: 1:2

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I don’t put that forward as a logical proposition intending to challenge the laws of physics because it’s not the same arena. That’s why we call it faith.
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September 13, 2010 8:02pm
Kris K

Chthoniid 7:46 pm,

That would be a logic fail Kris.

I make no apology for God not fitting into your small ‘logical’ box, Evo-man.

I’m not the one claiming that the existence of a singularity presents a cosmological problem.

… but I am, and, of course, it does.

And you evolutionists would know all about “special pleading”.
********

Repton 7:51 pm,

In the case of an architect, it’s pretty easy to figure out where the architect came from…

Most Christians would have absolutely no problem with that statement – I certainly don’t.
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September 13, 2010 8:05pm
Chthoniid

Reid

It has been proposed that something can’t come from nothing (e.g. the Universe)
It is proposed that a supernatural deity also exists.
If we ask, where did this deity come from, the answer we are given is that he was always there.

This violates the first proposition.
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September 13, 2010 8:27pm
Chthoniid

@Kris K

that would be a logic fail Kris.

I make no apology for God not fitting into your small ‘logical’ box, Evo-man.

Nonsensical answers might sound profound, but they’re still complete bullshit Kris.
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September 13, 2010 8:31pm
Luc Hansen

One thing that always puzzled me about Christianity, once I got a bit older and wiser than my reflexive disbelief, is the lauding of the policy of separation of church and state. Why is this a good thing? If your religion is the only true one and it teaches the only godly way to live, surely its adherents should fight, or at least argue, to ensure that their one way is the only way!

That’s where Islam trumps Christianity, perhaps?

Peace be upon you.
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September 13, 2010 8:35pm
reid

What is nothing, Chthoniid?
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September 13, 2010 8:35pm
reid

One thing that always puzzled me about Christianity, once I got a bit older and wiser than my reflexive disbelief, is the lauding of the policy of separation of church and state. Why is this a good thing? If your religion is the only true one and it teaches the only godly way to live, surely its adherents should fight, or at least argue, to ensure that their one way is the only way!

Well it didn’t really work very well, when it was the other way around, Luc. That was the thing. Once we’d understood that: e.g.

inquisition = bad

then everything was fine again.
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September 13, 2010 8:37pm
Luc Hansen

No, the inquisition was a market failure. That doesn’t mean the product is suspect.

I bet John Ansell could dream up a billboard to get you onboard such a project overnight!
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September 13, 2010 8:41pm
Luc Hansen

I hope the climate change deniers are all watching TVNZ6 right now.
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September 13, 2010 8:43pm
dad4justice

I would like to be watching the idiot box Lucy but my TV disappeared down a large crack that runs through my house.
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September 13, 2010 8:53pm
reid

“No, the inquisition was a market failure. That doesn’t mean the product is suspect.”

We tried re-launching several times, Luc, but each time there was nothing but disappointment.
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September 13, 2010 8:54pm
Don the Kiwi

Chthoniid.

Saying that nothing comes from nothing is poorly stating the proposition. It should be more clearly discussed like this.

– The laws of Physics state that matter cannot create itself.
Therefore matter had to be created by something very powerful that was not created.
That something also had to have intelligence to make the decision to create.
So the proposition is that an all powerful intellectual being that had no created beginning made matter from nothing.

That’s it in brief, and it follows that this is one of the arguments in favour of the existence of God. I don’t see any flawed logic – the only problem to empiricists is, that there has not been any physical evidence to prove it – if you

discount our world as evidence of created matter. Therefore there is the LHC searching for the Boson Higgs etc. etc. Which thus far has provided more questions than answers.

So God is Mystery as well. 😉
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September 13, 2010 9:01pm
Don the Kiwi

Should be LHC
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September 13, 2010 9:04pm
tristanb

The Mongrel Mob family at the quake shelter who were doing drugs, being rude and nasty to other users has some influential friends. I’m beginning to think there are some nasty close connections between the Maori Party and some of the nasty gangs.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/canterbury-earthquake/4123650/Maori-Party-calls-for-apology-over-freeloading-whanau

The comment by “Emergency Worker #237” seems to give a proper account of what happened. (Unlike the rest of the news media which is just hyperboles about carnage, and details about how has-been celebrities felt in the quake.)
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September 13, 2010 9:15pm
Pete George

Therefore matter had to be created by something very powerful that was not created.

That ignores the proposition that matter cannot be created or destroyed, it just changes form.
Same applies to energy.
It becomes tricky if mass is converted into energy, apparently.

But does it really matter?
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September 13, 2010 9:18pm
wat dabney

“I’ve solved your “singularity” problem. No thanks required.”

I’m not sure that inventing an invisible pixie can really count as solving anything. In fact, it’s just a cop-out to avoid having to provide a proper explanation.

What’s that? He’s a magic pixie you say? Well that changes everything! Why didn’t you say so in the first place? I can see now I was wrong to doubt your explanation.
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September 13, 2010 9:18pm
Luc Hansen

Don

– The laws of Physics state that matter cannot create itself.
Therefore matter had to be created by something very powerful that was not created.

Non-sequitur, Don.
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September 13, 2010 9:21pm
Don the Kiwi

PG.

“But does it really matter” 😆

To many Pete , I guess not. To others, it really does matter. Once again , free will, personal choice.
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September 13, 2010 9:25pm
Luc Hansen

reid

If at first you don’t succeed, do what politicians all over the world do – try harder!

Just like Obama is doing right now with his stimulus package (I hope Michelle is pleased, at least).
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September 13, 2010 9:27pm
Don the Kiwi

Luc.

The point is that matter exists. So the problem is, how?

I merely state one proposition that has a logical sequence.

What’s your proposition?
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September 13, 2010 9:28pm
Luc Hansen

Don

Your earlier statement is a leap of logic.

And the answer to your problem is twofold: one, we don’t know, yet; two, does it matter?

Either way, that’s no excuse to invent an answer that serves only to suit your predetermined belief.
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September 13, 2010 9:35pm
reid

I’m not sure that inventing an invisible pixie can really count as solving anything. In fact, it’s just a cop-out to avoid having to provide a proper explanation.

What’s that? He’s a magic pixie you say? Well that changes everything! Why didn’t you say so in the first place? I can see now I was wrong to doubt your explanation.

Possibly something significant escaped from the sheer power of your significant perspicacity wat, but never mind.
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September 13, 2010 9:35pm
reid

“But does it really matter?”

Well it depends whether you want a living universe as we currently enjoy or a cold dead one with nothing at all happening ever, Pete.
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September 13, 2010 9:38pm
krazykiwi

Quoting myself:

MNIJ – your crusade to rid the world of religion suggests some deep physiological issues. You should get some help. Seriously

Hmmmm, no time for help… you’ve lots of work to do 🙂
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September 13, 2010 10:33pm

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