General Debate 9 August 2010

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Grant Michael McKenna

I feel sorry for people who eat balanced diets, exercise regularly and don’t drink, because one day they’re going to be dying in a hospital bed, and they won’t know why.
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August 9, 2010 8:06am
backster

This extract from ‘The Beautiful and Dammed’ (F. Scott Fitzgerald) somehow reminds me of a former government.

“It was the most opulent land on earth. -a land whose wisest are but little wiser than the dullest; a land where rulers have minds like little children and the law givers believe in Santa Claus; where ugly women control strong men. Yes a truly melancholy spectacle. Women with receding chins and shapeless noses go about in broad daylight saying “do this. do that” and all men even those of immense wealth obey implicitly.”

Yep I once lived there, and now the head ruler has plans to transform the whole world in that image.
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August 9, 2010 8:21am
MikeNZ

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/eye-surgeon-devoted-30-years-to-patients-in-poverty-2046692.html

As a senior member of IAM working with the Noor Eye Institute, Dr Little trained the former Afghan foreign minister, Abdullah Abdullah, who yesterday paid tribute: “Dr Little travelled the length and breadth of Afghanistan, treating thousands and thousands of Afghans.”

He supervised eye hospitals in Kabul, Kandahar and Herat, as well as smaller clinics in three towns. IAM has worked in Afghanistan since 1966, longer than any other NGO, and treats around quarter of a million Afghans every year.

His team trekked, on foot and on horseback, from village to village over two weeks in Nuristan Province, providing specialist eye treatment and healthcare to around 400 people before last week’s attack, according to IAM’s director, Dirk Frans.

Whether or not they were Christians matters not, for years they have been treating Afghan’s in the remotest parts of the country. Sadly if the Taliban do get back in power I suspect the health care of the remote people will go down in standard.

The thing I can’t get over is that we have financed two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to bring into place constitutions that discriminate against people due to their religion and gender. I wouldn’t mind if they were secular and guarenteed rights equally to all who are citizens but they don’t.
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August 9, 2010 8:26am
Adolf Fiinkensein

backster, fortunately for you and me, medical science has not found yet a way to keep her chinless carcass alive long enough for her to succeed.
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August 9, 2010 8:27am
Brian Smaller

MikeNZ – I fear we are wasting our time even trying to help these people. Not that that is a reason not to try, but they do seem to love living in the middle ages.
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August 9, 2010 8:38am
MikeNZ

I assume you refer to Afghani and not Islam?
Is it cultural or the level of education generally?
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August 9, 2010 8:40am
eszett

The thing I can’t get over is that we have financed two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to bring into place constitutions that discriminate against people due to their religion and gender.

Well, maybe this is where you are wrong. We have financed two wars where there was no plan whatsoever of what to do after the war is won, certainly nothing like bring a constitution or building a nation.

You are sadly mistaken if you really believe that either war was waged to liberate people and bring stability and prosperity. Both wars were just terribly planned.
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August 9, 2010 8:47am
Pete George

Is it cultural or the level of education generally?

Education was a major factor in advancing Christian based nations, but Muslim dominated countries have a cultural problem too, actively limiting education especially for females.

The more extreme Muslims may see better education as a threat, as when populations become more educated they are less likely to believe as strongly in religion or blindly follow stupidity.
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August 9, 2010 8:55am
MikeNZ

So what were they waged for then Eszett if not to liberate people and bring stability and prosperity?
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August 9, 2010 8:58am
hj

We’re going to miss Sean Plunket, he gets his knife right in the eye of the beast.
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August 9, 2010 8:59am
MikeNZ

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10664378

Short term DPB + education + adult supervision = happy ending.

Here’s the rub, Adult supervision.
How many of today’s young people would submit to someone else’s supervision if it meant they couldn’t do what they want?
More importantly if you cut the benefit how do you ensure they get the education they need?

Where is the family and parents in all this?
What about the whanau?
Is the welfare state the right answer if the parents and whanau isn’t?

Sorry to ask so many questions but I am interested in your answers as I don’t believe rescuing people continually from consequences is working.
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August 9, 2010 9:05am
Pete George

Sue Bradford said this morning that it’s unfair to expect people on welfare to work for low wages, and they shouldn’t be pressured to do so. I guess this is a nod towards a decent minimum wage. The problem with that is it would inevitably lead to less jobs, therefore putting more people on welfare.
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August 9, 2010 9:15am
eszett

Mike, that should be quite obvious, even to you. But if you wish to continue to believe in your fantasy that the wars were fought for some noble, selfless reason, feel free to do so.
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August 9, 2010 9:19am
malcolm

Sue Bradford said this morning that it’s unfair to expect people on welfare to work for low wages, and they shouldn’t be pressured to do so.

Sue Bradford is thick. She hasn’t learnt anything in the last 40 years. Is it fair to expect working NZer’s – many of whom earn little by international standards – to pay for other people who by-and-large choose not to work?

Just ask the 50 thousand who leave NZ each year to work elsewhere.
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August 9, 2010 9:28am
Pete George

Kiwis are likely to vote for a change to the MMP system for electing MPs but still prefer it to the “first past the post” system it replaced, a survey reveals.

Voter poll says ‘no’ to new and old

It seems to indicate an improved MMP may be the preferred option, but it’s very early to be jumping to conclusions with little information out there at the moment.

One interesting aspect of the poll:

Just under 12 per cent remained undecided and 4 per cent said they would not vote.

Far more than 4% won’t vote, we never have anywhere near 96% voter turnout. Is this figure simply reflecting the fact that polls only include those who have agreed to be polled so the non-voters have already been filtered out of the numbers?
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August 9, 2010 9:32am
jinpy

Sad indeed the recent murders in Afghanistan by Taleban. These guys will wait the occupation out and when one falls I guess another will replace them — how they can have popular support is difficult for me to understand given their extremist views — is it that any ‘local’ regime is preferable to an outsider, who by definition is always perceived as an invader? Or do various local leaders see the advantages in being onside with a powerful group and go along with the extremist islam stuff, or do they themselves get converted?
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August 9, 2010 9:32am
kaya

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/08/04/306346/imf-blueprint-for-a-global-currency-yes-really/

Global currency a step closer? The IMF certainly see it as viable.
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August 9, 2010 9:33am
hj

There’s an article on NZ’s population in North and South. The Berl economist says we need a larger population to maintain our lifestyle: administer National Parks and maintain infrastructure and afford public transport systems. The Auckland chamber of commerce see it as a big opportunity. An urban planner? talks about the need for decent townhouses (rather than our houses on 600sqm sections). Someone mentions the size of the economy needed and moving from land based to a (what?) non land based. Somoen refers to our migration policies as a “cargo cult”.
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August 9, 2010 9:34am
kaya

There is very little that Sue Bradford has to say that is of any interest. She is like Keith Locke, anything she advocates is usually worth opposing.
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August 9, 2010 9:37am
malcolm

I fear we are wasting our time even trying to help these people. Not that that is a reason not to try, but they do seem to love living in the middle ages.

We said. The oft repeated reason of denying terrorists a base, is just baseless. They don’t need a base. If you want to fire a knock-off AK-47 and crawl under barbed wire, you can do that in Pakistan or the US. But you don’t need to do any of that stuff to become an effective terrorist. C.f. the bombings in London.

Bin Laden was in Afghanistan because it was available to him. But that doesn’t mean these people need Afghanistan. They have the internet and their own inititive.

The only good reason for NZ to have solders in Afghanistan is because the Americans are there and we need them more than they need us.
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August 9, 2010 9:45am
rouppe

MikeNZ

I too do not believe that constantly ‘rescuing’ is working. Although rescue is not a good term, because that implies people’s repeated need is due to an accident when it is either deliberate or stupid. I do not believe that someone should have their DBP extended, enhanced or otherwise enriched beyond the circumstance in which they first came to receive it.

As to some of your other questions I will answer obliquely with experience from my own family.

Brother got married, had 3 kids, eldest a daughter. Difficult marriage with a lot of arguing and discontent. Neither parent helped that situation. Family is based in Rotorua – my place of birth and where our mother still lives. The daughter is doing well at school until about aged 13. Starts going of the rails, attempts by the parents to improve behaviour are ignored and probably not helped by the fractious home life. Starts hanging around with unemployed, drug-taking group which unfortunately are very common in Rotorua. Gets pregnant at 15, miscarries. You’d think this would have been a timely lesson, but no. Parents are furious. Daughter doesn’t care. Gets pregnant again, miscarries again. Parents are furious. I personally advocate for criminal charges against the would-be father for statutory rape. Parents choose not to do this.

Daughter doesn’t care. Drops out of school. Marriage ends. Wife gets the property (a couple of acres on Rotorua fringes). Brother gets to keep his government super that he’s had for 20-odd years by then but has to pay child support as (surprise surprise) she has custody.

Daughter gets pregnant again, carries to term, healthy boy born. Father drug-taking unemployed piece of shit. Daughter has no school qualifications and drifts between DPB and part time work, sometimes both at the same time, despite my brothers pleas to be honest as he knows the consequence of her getting caught out.

He has no influence anymore over their life and can’t afford the court costs to try and get some control. Brother lives hand-to-mouth in order to continue to pay child support. Ex-wife buys Mercedes. Ex-wife decides to supplement income with getting in a boarder. One of the kids has to sleep in the hallway to make room for the boarder. Daughter still hangs around with drug-taking pieces of shit. Property disappears (stolen) from house by said group of drug-taking pieces of shit. The other two children (boys) from the marriage don’t finish school, but at least don’t get into serious trouble though the youngest is fooling around with drugs as well.

Only now, after the kids are a bit older (now aged 19-22) do they start to see what a mess they’re in. Youngest has been in mild trouble with Police, but has started an apprenticeship, the first serious step he’s taken. The middle boy is doing the best, is 2 years into an apprenticeship as an electrical engineer that he is excelling at. The daughter has moved to where her father (my brother) lives and her son is at last getting consistent male role modelling and results at school (he’s 7 I think now) are improving rapidly. Unfortunately the daughter has started hanging around with another unemployed bloke (don’t know his propensity for drugs yet) so there’s still risk there.

The ex-wife, who turned down $1million for the land in Rotorua, is losing that as well as other property to mortgagee sale at the moment.

So:
1) Often the family is excluded from contributing because of the combative nature of the Family Court
2) You cannot knock good sense into kids. You cannot tie them up and control their lives. Sometimes, no matter what you do, they’ll choose the wrong path.
3) Positive influences are key. Sometimes there is no hope of positive influences whether the parents are together or apart. They’ll either fight or the Family Court will sometimes put the kids with the wrong parent.

I don’t think any changes to government policy would have helped this situation as the daughter didn’t continue to have kids to unemployed drug-taking losers (thank god). The biggest influence would have been custody being given to my brother instead of the ex-wife.
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August 9, 2010 9:45am
krazykiwi

@hj – The first thing we need is a recalibrated society. We need one that values/applauds productivity ahead of comfort and endless bleating about rights. Then add more people, and set the expectation that they’ll think and act likewise.

The risk of just breeding or importing more people today is that too many NZers expect to be left to doze in comfort provided by the diminishing and increasingly reluctant productive NZers.
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August 9, 2010 9:48am
Pete George

A discussion on the economy yesterday on Q&A suggested that to climb out of the recession we need people to spend and consume more. One of the reasons we are in the financial shit is because people spend more than they have and consume far more than they need. This sounds like a vicious circle.

Re the population, I saw recently someone suggesting that for Australia to keep a reasonable level of economic growth they need to double their population in the next twenty years. If we “keep up” with Australia that would mean 2m+ population in Auckland. They can’t even find a decent mayoral candidate amongst half that.
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August 9, 2010 10:02am
Redbaiter

You couldn’t make this stuff up-

‘NEW YORK – Charges of racism, sexism, and religious discrimination filled the air this afternoon outside the just-completed Cordoba House, the gleaming new $100 million 15 story mosque and Islamic cultural center near the ruins of New York’s World Trade Center, following a tense 5-hour standoff prompted by the mosque’s refusal to host a wedding between a lesbian African-American woman and her blind white transgendered partner.’

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2010/08/wedgeapalooza.html

Or could you?
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August 9, 2010 10:26am
krazykiwi

@Pete – the spend and consume mantra is heard most loudly in countries with a consumption tax, ergo the more often we move money from one pocket to another the more often the government is able to intervene and help itself to some of that wealth. So spend and consume is a popular state plea.
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August 9, 2010 10:28am
krazykiwi

lesbian African-American woman and her blind white transgendered partner

One of them had to be vegan. Surely?
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August 9, 2010 10:36am
scrubone

What about this?
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/08/08/milwaukee-teachers-union-fight-for-viagra-coverage/
“Just because math is hard doesn’t mean the teacher has to be.”
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August 9, 2010 10:44am
Lipo

The problem seems to be that Government is finding it harder to finance the welfare cost. So rather thank reduce welfare expenditure it may look to shift the cost onto someone else.

Why won’t the government reduce welfare expenditure?
To many people who vote now receive welfare without paying anything into the governments pot of gold
Governments with so called democracies have bribed their way into power by promising to give money to one sector of the community using another sector’s hard earned cash

Solution – Have a democracy where people who do not pay Tax do not get to vote
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August 9, 2010 10:46am
starboard

Lipo (76) Says:

August 9th, 2010 at 10:46 am

promote that man to management. Excellent idea.
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August 9, 2010 10:50am
Pauleastbay

Sorry Lipo,

You are going to make a lot of people look really bad if you are going to come here and start talking common sense, bugger that
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August 9, 2010 11:29am
francis

@Grant Michael McKenna I’ve heard a story that Jackie O said had she known staying healthy and fit would not prevent her cancer, she’d have had a lot more fun instead.
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August 9, 2010 11:36am
side show bob

Better hurry up and organise something then Lipo, the way this crowd is going tax payers are fast become an endangered species.
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August 9, 2010 11:48am
Adolf Fiinkensein

Red 10.26

You’ve been suckered by a bit of satire.
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August 9, 2010 12:03pm
MikeNZ

excellent satire at that.

Roupe
thanks for sharing

eszett (556) Says:
August 9th, 2010 at 9:19 am
Mike, that should be quite obvious, even to you.

No it’s not hence my question that you avoided answering.
So what is it?
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August 9, 2010 12:18pm
Pete George

So what were they waged for then Eszett if not to liberate people and bring stability and prosperity?

The reasons for those wars are highly complex, as is the US psyche.

The war in Afghanistan was started to be seen to be kicking Al Qaeda’s arse in retaliation for 9-11.
The war in Iraq was started to kick Saddam’s arse.

They were both under the umbrella of Operation Kick-Arse-Then-Um-Ah-BringItOn-Doh.
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August 9, 2010 12:26pm
kowtow

re Afghanistan and the murder of the aid workers;note the relatively small amount of publicity in the local and int”l media. Christian aid,ho hum. Note in contrast the then unending lead stories about Abu Graib,even on TVNZ.

James Michener wrote Caravans,published 1964,and set in 1946 before this current resurgence of Islamism and it has a number of interesting insights to Afghan history and culture. Like all his books it’s an easy read and not too long like some of his others.
One thing of interest was the bare hills due to poor grazing practises,this occurs in many places where forests have disappeared,leading to erosion, rural poverty and desertification.And which is reversable.
The book is well worth a read.
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August 9, 2010 12:39pm
pollywog

The problem seems to be that Government is finding it harder to finance the welfare cost. So rather than reduce welfare expenditure it should look to shift the cost onto someone else.

Why won’t the government cap executive salaries?

To many people who vote now receive unwarranted exorbitant salaries without giving anything back to the community at large

Businesses under so called democracies have bribed their way into positions of power by promising to give money to one sector of the political spectrum using another sector’s hard earned cash

Solution – Have a democracy where people who do pay less Tax due to structuring their assets to hide their wealth do not get to vote
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August 9, 2010 1:15pm
eszett

Quite right, Pete.

The original purpose of the Afghanistan war was to get bin Laden and destroy a base for Al Qaida. There was no thought or money given to what to do with that country or how to rebuild it.

And Iraq, who knows why the US went in there. Where were all the WMDs, where was the al Qiada connection of Saddam? Nowhere to be found Ironically Saddam was the biggest enemy of bin Laden and al Qaida, as they threaten him quite considerably. The US was quite happy to let Saddam torture his own people as long as he fought against Iran. They propped him up quite considerably. And, of course, there’s the thing about the oil. But surely that would not motivate a superpower.

The US couldn’t give a flying fuck about democracy, human rights or the treatment of women in Afghanistan or elsewhere. It’s national interest only. E.g. Why would they support the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the model democracy and upholder of human and women rights in the middle east.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a realist, this the way things are. What I do get angry about is the the neo-cons bumbled into these two wars without any idea of how to get out and what to do after war. Bush and Cheney, the fantastic war strategists of the 21st century.

Not like after WWII where they did have a plan and look how successful that plan was. Nothing like that in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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August 9, 2010 1:36pm
Pete George

Bush’s vision for Iraq was revealed when the name was corrected after the first month – Operation Aw Shucks.
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August 9, 2010 1:46pm
gravedodger

Does anyone else think Woodcock was a very lucky man to remain on the field. His act of thuggery on the Wallaby hooker was inexcusable and if he escapes a sighting then I would hope the coaches apply a meaningful sanction.
It was
unnecessary
unprovoked
unseen by the hooker as coming, IMO he was trying to get out and away.
a similar act earned Bakkies Botha a couple of weeks off in SA at the start of the internationals there
did Kaplan have a preconceived mindset to not card anyone.
I am being a wus – I think not.
just the sort of idiotic brainstorm that could cost dearly at the world cup in a tight one.
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August 9, 2010 2:05pm
Pete George

Does anyone else think Woodcock was a very lucky man to remain on the field.

I’d say just lucky. There is a lot of cleaning out around rucks that goes unpunished. This was a bit worse, but it would be interesting to analyse how often (if at all) the Aussie hooker had been lurking and lingering on the wrong side of rucks, it is also a common practice.

I think it was potentially as dangerous as the recent bans for spear tackles (but so is a lot of cleaning out) so to be consistent a citing is warranted, but it looks like he has escaped that.
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August 9, 2010 2:17pm
stephen

Would be a bit odd for said Aussie hooker to linger close to (he really wasn’t close was he) when it’s surely in the best interest of his team for him to be defending his arse off!
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August 9, 2010 2:21pm
MikeNZ

http://www.powerlineblog.com/

,blockquote> The status quo is sustainable for a long time. If Palestinian misery is the motive to break the deadlock, then why don’t we see any eagerness to make peace, negotiate with Israel, and get a state on the part of the Palestinians themselves? Within this framework, the governments of Ariel Sharon, Ehud Olmert and Binyamin Netanyahu have all functioned along similar lines. There is no strong alternative vision; there is no real alternative to current policies

The reality is as long as the Palestinians recieve EU and UN Aid (read benefits) they have no incentive to build a society nor to grow as a people group.
That the surrounding Arab/islamic states have treated them far worse than their enemy is a given.
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August 9, 2010 2:35pm
cha

Another one who couldn’t keep it in his pants.
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August 9, 2010 2:36pm
Chuck Bird

The ETS Must be Dumped

Come to a Public Meeting to learn about the ETS and the damage it will do to New Zealand’s economy. No spin, just the facts. Learn also about the backdowns that have already resulted from ACT’s campaign and ACT’s strategy going forward.

WARKWORTH – 9 August – 7.30 pm, The Bridgehouse Café, 16 Elizabeth Street, Warkworth – Rodney Hide and John Boscawen. Please note: you can join Rodney and John for a casual dinner at the venue from 6pm.

Other meeting dates and venues will be advised closer to the time.

For more information call 09 531 5531 or email johnboscawen.mp@parliament.govt.nz.
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August 9, 2010 2:38pm
Pete George

Would be a bit odd for said Aussie hooker to linger close to…

I’d usually think that getting on side and back into play as fast as possible should be a priority, but players often take their time. Amongst the widely practised arts are slowing the attacking ball down, and cutting down options.

Saia Faingaa was certainly lingering, to one side and behind the All Black side of the ruck, effectively blocking a quick feed to the right from halfback. What Woodcock should have done was make a big act about doing very little to draw attention to it.
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August 9, 2010 2:38pm
cha

That the surrounding Arab/islamic states have treated them far worse than their enemy is a given.

Well it appears that most Arabs couldn’t give a rats about them Mike.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/opinion/02karsh.html

What, then, are we to make of a recent survey for the Al Arabiya television network finding that a staggering 71 percent of the Arabic respondents have no interest in the Palestinian-Israeli peace talks?
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August 9, 2010 2:46pm
MikeNZ

Cha
yep I read that one before and all it does is confirm that the so called Palestinians aren’t treated as people by their own, but a political ball.
Of course they have no interest as they only want one end. No Israel.

Not surprisingly, the Arab states have never hesitated to sacrifice Palestinians on a grand scale whenever it suited their needs. In 1970, when his throne came under threat from the Palestine Liberation Organization, the affable and thoroughly Westernized King Hussein of Jordan ordered the deaths of thousands of Palestinians, an event known as “Black September.”

Six years later, Lebanese Christian militias, backed by the Syrian Army, massacred some 3,500 Palestinians, mostly civilians, in the Beirut refugee camp of Tel al-Zaatar. These militias again slaughtered hundreds of Palestinians in 1982 in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, this time under Israel’s watchful eye. None of the Arab states came to the Palestinians’ rescue.

why?
Because they treated themselves as above the law of the land in their host countries.
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August 9, 2010 3:00pm
Rex Widerstrom

MikeNZ asks:

Here’s the rub, Adult supervision.
How many of today’s young people would submit to someone else’s supervision if it meant they couldn’t do what they want?

Lots, judging by the number of (very) young women with babies who queue for a place in the special units withihn some secondary schools which permit them to bring their babies with them into the classroom and resume their education, for instance, such as Porirua’s He Huarahi Tamariki which Coddington makes mention of.

But the story to which you linked references the kind of mother who kills, or permits another to kill, their child. I don’t accept her argument linking education, or welfare, or anything else, to these women. Protecting your child isn’t something you need to learn; it is (or should be) instinctual. If the man you’re with mistreats your child there are any number of welfare agencies willing and eager to help you. Yet they stay… who could forget (I certainly haven’t) the evidence that emerged at the trials of the people responsible for the death of Delcelia Whittaker, whose mother’s diary contained words to the effect that “I know he is beating her but I can’t leave him, the sex is too good”.

I’ve seen people who’d be considered the worst of the worst – criminals imprisoned for sometimes horrendous crimes against other adults – mothering their children with all the love and care we’d hope any mother would have for her child. And woe betide any man who’d harm them.

I’m not sure whether a woman who isn’t instinctually programmed to protect her children above all else can be “fixed” but if she can it’s a far greater task than simply education and welfare.

But for the vast majority of other mothers:

f you cut the benefit how do you ensure they get the education they need?

We can’t. If they’re going to get an education and raise a child then we must support them financially, and to a level of comfortable (though not luxurious) independence otherwise we leave them prey to the “lowlife mongrels who want easy sex and a roof over their heads, then bash their kids when they won’t stop crying” as Coddington so aptly describes them. Otherwise we’re failing those children.

Where is the family and parents in all this?

Contrary to popular belief, they’re often around. Just because your teenage daughter gets pregnant doesn’t mean you’re a bad or indifferent parent. A lot of the girls who go to places like He Huarahi Tamariki live at home with their parents… which means they perhaps need less welfare, but not no welfare.

Is the welfare state the right answer if the parents and whanau isn’t?

Yes. And no. It’s by no means perfect and it could certainly stand to be improved but it is the only answer we have. Unless you believe private charity would step in, and I do not.

I don’t believe rescuing people continually from consequences is working.

Do you mean rescuing the same people continually, or rescuing generation after generation from the same problems? Because the answers are very different… assuming of course that either assertion is correct (and I’d certainly agree that the second one is).
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August 9, 2010 3:30pm
OTGO

Saia Faingaa was off side. Could’ve hindered an AB attack so he had to be moved. It was a wee bit forcefull but I noticed he never did it again.
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August 9, 2010 3:46pm
stephen

should have done was make a big act about doing very little to draw attention to it.

Sounds pretty difficult!
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August 9, 2010 3:48pm
Redbaiter

“You’ve been suckered by a bit of satire.”

For fuck’s sake Adolf, I thought some prune might come up with that but I never expected it to be you. Clue- they haven’t even started building the fucking Mosque yet. FFS…!!! Whaddya think I meant by “or could you?”…?????

And there’s same old same old Totalitarian Cha doing his breathless best to slander the right with as usual, stuff that is five years past its use by date. Infant.

And the rest of the clueless brain damaged left, even after ten years, still on and on and on with the same old hate Bush mania and propaganda on Iraq that’s been flogged to death a million times. What a fucking yawn.
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August 9, 2010 3:55pm
david

Saia Faingaa showed some pretty good acting skills as well. Watch the replay closely and see how he almost bounces to his feet, spots the ref and then goes into an Oscar winning performance of pain and suffering worthy of praise by the Italian or French soccer side. Note also how there were no after-effects when he realised he wasn’t going to suck Kaplan into reaching for his pocket.
I’ll wager it goes no further.
Sorry gd, but the Banks Paninsula water has softened your outlook. Penalty, reclose that left eye and repeat “go Canterbury” 20 times each morning before your bacon and eggs.
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August 9, 2010 4:06pm
grumpyoldhori

OTGO true,hanging around on the wrong side of a ruck will often bring a reaction.
Wonder why Deans played Saia Faingaa at hooker, it certainly did nothing for the Aussie scrum.
Dean s the best coach in the world, I wonder, he is spouting that he has the best players, so how come they have lost eight in a row to the ABs ?
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August 9, 2010 4:15pm
Viking2

Stop Press;
Breaking News.
Breath Taking News.
Yep Really
The old Salt Water Crocodile at Napier died, a couple of weeks ago. A postmortem being held.

Not so dramatic but get this.

A MEMORIAL SERVICE IS PLANNED FOR THE CROCODILE.

Now ffs what’s the matter with this country.

Maori Taonga eh!

Reminds me of the song. Never Smile for a crocodile!
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August 9, 2010 4:37pm
Jack5

New topic for a mo…

An interesting book on leftist-instigated white guilt. A review from Prospect, via Dennis Dutton’s great Arts and Letters Daily.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2010/07/self-serving-white-guilt/

Arts and Letters Daily:

http://www.aldaily.com
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August 9, 2010 4:48pm
grumpyoldhori

State housing and common bloody sense.
The state still owns a lot of housing in areas where they are short of single units and where land values are high.
So shift the bloody houses off those sites, sell half the land to make some real coin then build terrace housing with the loot they have made from the land sales.
They will get even more housing than what they had before.
T he councils will whine about pressure on sewage etc, so give them a kicking at the start.
The houses can be done up and shifted to where there is no pressure on land.
A win,win,win, policy.
And for christs sake make them a mixture of private and state housing, and plant some bloody trees.
We waste a hell of a lot of land in NZ when a lot of people would be happy to live in terrace housing.
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August 9, 2010 4:49pm
Pete George

There are a few mosque problems in the US, the NIMBY syndrome.

Opponents fight new mosques in US heartland

Muslims trying to build houses of worship in the nation’s heartland, far from the heated fight in New York over plans for a mosque near the World Trade Center site, are running into opponents even more hostile and aggressive.

The smaller projects in local communities are stoking a sharper kind of fear and anger than has showed up in New York. Several hundred demonstrators recently wore “Vote for Jesus” T-shirts and carried signs that said: “No Sharia law for USA!,”

The Christians sometimes have a funny way of showing love.

The fear stokers will ignore studies showing the obvious:

A study by professors at the Duke University’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina backs up Jasser’s statement. The study found that mosques, religious bookstores and other communal associations that bring Muslim-Americans together helps prevent radicalisation.
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August 9, 2010 4:53pm
Viking2

Hey grumpy, that’s what Clarkson recommended to them about a century ago but when you appoint the useless to manage the ever useless you get what we have, more committees and more reports and more money wasted and nothing done. Sounds like NZ and NZ Govt. don’t it.
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August 9, 2010 5:07pm
Viking2

More useless trying to manage the even more useless.

MMP change favoured by MP

Monday, 9, Aug, 2010 2:36PM

Tauranga MP Simon Bridges says he favours voting for a change to MMP in next year’s referendum.

A recent survey found 38 percent want to get rid of MMP, 32 percent want it kept and 26 percent are undecided.

The referendum will be held at the same time as the election next year and Mr Bridges says New Zealanders are moving towards a view against MMP.

“It actually accords with what I’m hearing on the ground here in Tauranga. People are telling me they see problems and don’t see MMP as necessarily as democratic as it can be and may well be voting for change. As I sort of weigh up the arguments, I’m heading in that direction as well.”
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August 9, 2010 5:08pm
eszett

And the rest of the clueless brain damaged left, even after ten years, still on and on and on with the same old hate Bush mania and propaganda on Iraq that’s been flogged to death a million times. What a fucking yawn.

How many thousand people lost their lives for the lies and propaganda that Bush and co told us about Saddam? How many young Americans and Iraqies are still to be slaughtered? Only a cynical brain damaged right-winger like you would yawn at that, red.

The only person clueless is you if you still cannot see the truth even after all these years. The war in Iraq was a tremendous waste of lives and money. Even if the lives don’t interest you, the money surely does.
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August 9, 2010 5:08pm
chiz

eszett:And Iraq, who knows why the US went in there.

They went in there because of the WMD and oher stuff that they genuinely thought Saddam had, and because of the link, still undisputed, between Iraq and 9/11.
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August 9, 2010 5:16pm
krazykiwi

Signs saying “No Sharia law for USA” is evidence that “Christians sometimes have a funny way of showing love”?!? Sure Pete, whatever you say.
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August 9, 2010 5:20pm
Pete George

because of the link, still undisputed, between Iraq and 9/11.

Yeah, right. Only in the world of Cheney’s fools.
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August 9, 2010 5:27pm
Redbaiter

You ever going to stop lying your head off PG?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/1191203.stm
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August 9, 2010 5:32pm
eszett

Oh dear, red, you are living in the past. You post an article from 2001!!! Time to move on.
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August 9, 2010 5:41pm
Redbaiter

“You post an article from 2001!!! Time to move on.”

Time for you to get a brain. Fuck off, you’re just a child.

Actually, meant to post this link,

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/07/22/victory-and-vindication/print/

but it don’t matter much, as the fact that in 2001 the BBC was saying that Saddam had a bomb is a good point to shove down the neck of you brain damaged lying cowardly commie totalitarians anyway. Even if you are too fucking stupid to grasp the significance until it’s pointed out to you.
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August 9, 2010 5:45pm
eszett

What link, chiz? The only thing undisputed is that there was never a link between Saddam and 9/11. Even Cheney admits that now

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/01/cheney.speech/

“I do not believe and have never seen any evidence to confirm that [Hussein] was involved in 9/11. We had that reporting for a while, [but] eventually it turned out not to be true,” Cheney conceded.
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August 9, 2010 5:46pm
kowtow

re the Iraq war ,what everyone conveniently forgets in the rush to attack the great satan,is the ’03 invasion was also the conclusion of unfinished business of the 1st Gulf war. Remember Saddam invaded Kuwait and the allies wre operating the no fly zones and establishing the Kurd north. How long could that go on for?

To those who think the victoious allies had a cunning plan for rebuilding Europe post WW2 ,think again.(dont get me wrongI admire Churchill and consider WW2 as the high point of the Empire)

The Marshall Plan was concieved after the war. It was a response to the communist threat. Also the war ended a year earlier than anticipated causing huge unemplyment in the US (demobbed servicemen and no more war production).Giving aid to Europe to buy US goods helped every one!

Originally Germany was to be emasculated under the Morganthua plan,that had to be dropped.

The Marshall Plan should have been called the Truman plan,but as Truman knew he was unpopular he said it would have a better chance of being accepted in America if it was seen to be part of the very popular General Marshall’s programme or idea.
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August 9, 2010 5:52pm
Tauhei Notts

My advice to Saia Faingaa;
If you ever get on the piss in Fiji be very very careful.
Why?
Because Robin Brooke used to be an expert at hanging about offside and restricting the attacking team’s passing options.
Saia may have an employment opportunity in the grocery trade after he retires from rugby union.
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August 9, 2010 5:53pm
Redbaiter

God you leftists are fucking morons. Just so dumb you’re not worth the effort of typing a message.
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August 9, 2010 5:53pm
mikeysmokes

If Woodcock was a Saffa or a Convict he would have been yellow carded and cited.
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August 9, 2010 5:55pm
Pete George

Signs saying “No Sharia law for USA” is evidence that “Christians sometimes have a funny way of showing love”?!?

Signs like that and “Vote for Jesus” have nothing to do with whether someone else should be able to build their own place of worship. It’s not like Muslims protest new Christian churches with “No Inquisition” signs. No one was trying to introduce Sharia Law into the statutes.

Just looks like more signs that Christians don’t like spiritual competition.
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August 9, 2010 5:55pm
mikeysmokes

What the fuck is that about TauhaiNotts?
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August 9, 2010 5:56pm
krazykiwi

Signs like that and “Vote for Jesus” have nothing to do with whether someone else should be able to build their own place of worship.

Correct. Nothing to do with it at all. More like the feeling that thousands of people lost their lives there at the hands of Muslim extremists, so allowing an Islamic place of worship close to that site isn’t really cricket. I guess if you think it’s fine, you’d also support construction of a Buddhist temple on a Wahi Tapu?

It’s not like Muslims protest new Christian churches with “No Inquisition” signs

Indeed. Their protests are somewhat more direct.

Just looks like more signs that Christians don’t like spiritual competition.

Yes the evidence is really building isn’t it? Beheadings, aid workers slaughtered, aircraft flown in buildings vs a few banners and slogans. Riiiight…

These people are perfectly entitled to protest what they consider to be a desecration of a sacred place. You may not like that, but then the world is not yet full of one-eyed apologists.
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August 9, 2010 6:45pm
Viking2

http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2010/08/09/we-will-fight-key-on-the-beaches-join-the-campaign-focus-group/
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August 9, 2010 6:54pm
grumpyoldhori

Viking2, a committee is not needed just a dictator.
Christ it is simple, chuck the people into good motels, get the houses moved, then auction half the lots off.
But, you have to look at who becomes a politician today, too many of them in all the parties hold so called political degrees.
Which means they could not arrange a piss up in a brewery.
Get Clarkson in to run it, he does not care what sensitive wee toes he steps on in getting a job done.
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August 9, 2010 6:54pm
Viking2

Nope Key didn’t want an old codger with ideas and knowhow. Bob’s busy building a new store and developing a zillion acres of riverside land. Bought a big bunch of expensive machines at fieldays. Only one there that spent any money.

Funny thing is that he is worth more than Key and that’s probably what irked Key and his pansy parade.
Instead we got a Rhodes Scholar/pretty boy cause that’s what the ladies wanted. No real men left in the National Pansy party.
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August 9, 2010 7:06pm
chiz

eszett:What link, chiz? The only thing undisputed is that there was never a link between Saddam and 9/11.

Osama attacked the US on 9/11 because of the presence of american troops in Saudi Arabia. Those troops were there because of the decision, at the end of the first Gulf war, to leave Saddam in power and contain him. The 9/11 commission accepted that this link existed and said so in their report. The claims, by Cheney and others, that there was no link between Saddam and 9/11 actually relate to a seperate claim that Saddam collaberated with OBL and was operationally involved in 9/11.

If we had not gone to war and removed Saddam those troops would still be there in Saudi Arabia and would still be inflaming the wahhabist xenophobes.
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August 9, 2010 7:09pm
eszett

That is silly, chiz.by the same measure you could claim that George Bush snr is responsible for 9/11 because he left the troops in Saudi.

While true that Osama was partly using the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia as justification, but that can hardly be used as an excuse for the second invasion.

And so the US troops are now in Iraq, inflaming Jihadist from all over the world. A job well done.
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August 9, 2010 7:28pm
Pete George

Krazykiwi, that article is about opposition to building a bigger mosque on an existing site in a suburb of Nashville. How can that be seen as desecration of a sacred site?

Mosque leader Essam Fathy, who helped plan the new building in Murfreesboro, has lived there for 30 years.

“I didn’t think people would try that hard to oppose something that’s in the Constitution,” he said. “The Islamic centre has been here since the early ’80s, 12 years in this location. There’s nothing different now except it’s going to be a little bigger.”
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August 9, 2010 7:32pm
chiz

It is sin’t silly eszett. At the end of the first Gulf war there were two options for dealing with Saddam – either leave him in power and contain him, or remove him. The americans initially wanted to remove him but were dissuaded from this partly because of the possibility that removing him from power might destabilise the region and even lead to another regional war but also because they were convinced that containment was a viable option that would have no consequences beyond the region.

They turned out to be wrong. The decision to leave him in power led to 9/11 but it also left the WMD questions unresolved. Given that the containment stratagy was failing and only had a few years left in it there wasn’t really another option.

Leaving him in power as people like you appear to suggest would ultimately have turned to be as bad or even possibly worse.
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August 9, 2010 7:40pm
krazykiwi

@Pete – Fair enough. I withdraw the sacred site comment. The right of locals to protest remains. Perhaps the Mosque leader could stand up, denounce terrorist acts by extremist Muslims, and then invite the Christian and other protestors in for coffee and a civil discussion. Likely? Hmmmm.
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August 9, 2010 7:53pm
Hurf Durf

It’s always fun spending Monday nights watching Delirium and Ezzie Babe wet the bed.
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August 9, 2010 9:05pm
francis

I’m kind of surprised that the advocates of lowering the BAC limit even further say the reduced levels will mean people who shouldn’t be driving will stop if the law changes, and so they’ll “all” be saved from being involved in road deaths. Seems from the repeat offender statistics as though the people who drive after having too much to drink will drive no matter how low the BAC is set. And the lower the BAC is set, the less likely that group will be to engage “caution” before “drive” when it comes to their cars – and so the larger that group will become. If you say 14 lives will be saved by lowering BAC a few points, aren’t you saying those .06 drink drivers will pay attention to the law? Will they? Especially when they simply can’t tell. How much drunker do you feel at 08 than at 06? This all seems to me like a move toward zero alcohol for drivers. Maybe that’s where it should go but the current blitz – about degrees of moderation – is very annoying.
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August 9, 2010 10:30pm

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