General Debate 1 August 2010

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gazzmaniac

I won, you lost, eat that!
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August 1, 2010 8:03am
andrei

Warning: Do not follow this link if you have just had breakfast – there is a high probability it will end up on your keyboard if you do.

Sunday Morning horrors
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August 1, 2010 8:04am
gazzmaniac

Good stuff ABs by the way – shame about the shocker of a game for the ref. 3 men sent off incorrectly, and lots of badly awarded penalties. Let the game flow FFS!
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August 1, 2010 8:05am
hj

Greens endorse foreshore stand [Press Statement]

The Green position on the Foreshore and Seabed has been endorsed at the party’s annual policy conference in Dunedin today (Sunday). The Green Party believes that public access to the foreshore can be guaranteed [guarantess “access and navigation” but not utilisation] within a framework that recognises Maori customary title and Kaitiakitanga,[what’s wrong with people with degrees in marine biology?] which will also protect the environment [and allows development]. It should be clarified in law that this ancestral collective title cannot be converted into individual freehold and sold [but can be leased.. and who is to say what will happen with a change to the generational mindset]. “The position endorsed by party members at today’s conference session is that any removal of customary title amounts to confiscation,” said Green Co-leader Jeanette Fitzsimons. “We believe this arrangement is a more genuine and enduring guarantee of responsible public access than crown ownership as proposed by the government [the crown is (esentially) the people- ask law lecturer David Round of Canterbury University]. As we’ve seen with rail, Telecom and our forests, crown ownership today is no guarantee of crown ownership tomorrow [hardly compares with the “big back yard”]. “Instead, our proposals provide a durable solution for the foreshore, grounded in honouring Te Tiriti [the Green Party also endorsed Meteria Turies remit that they adhere to the Maori version of te tiritti preserving the tribes “forests and fisheries” = “big back yard”]. “We have yet to see the final shape of the government’s planned legislation for the Foreshore and Seabed. Our response will be grounded on the principles endorsed today,” said Ms Fitzsimons.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3908099/Taranaki-coastal-rights-claim
Support the Coastal Coalition
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Coastal-Coalition-Save-our-Beaches/140350089313469
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August 1, 2010 8:12am
dad4justice

International rugby is infested with overzealous ref flees.
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August 1, 2010 8:22am
hj

The (above) Green party policy may have been dickied around a bit to make it more palatable (spin) but as far as I can see that is it.
The weakest part is the claim that iwi provide a better guarantee of environmental protection than “the crown” (which one green called “the national party”). Elsewhere David Clendon is attacking Gerry Brownlie for not ensuring royalties to iwi for oil extracted outside the 12 mile limit.

Has Brownlee broken the law?
“There is, at the very least, an appearance that the Minister may have acted inappropriately when he ignored Te Aupouri Iwi’s claim to [“exploit”?] the oil resource in the Reinga Block off the coast of the far north.”
http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/07/08/has-brownlee-broken-the-law/
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August 1, 2010 8:26am
Inventory2

Actually Gazz & Dad, as a former referee, I though Joubert had a reasonable game last night. He was firm, but most importantly, he was consistent; and that’s what the players want. And Drew Mitchell has no-one to blame but himself. His second infringement was a blatant professional foul, and whether or not he was on the field when the general warning was issued, once you’ve had one yellow card, you know what the consequences of a repeat infringement are.

Anyway, here’s my take on the match:

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/08/eight-straight.html
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August 1, 2010 8:31am
gazzmaniac

Inventory2 – the incessant meddling by referees is ruining the game of Rugby Union. At one stage in the second half the ABs got the ball out of a ruck on their side of half way and were about to run it, when the ref stopped play for an Australian infringement in the ruck. That’s what we have advantage for – to allow the game to flow. What we don’t want to see is people needlessly sent off, and penalties awarded badly, as happened quite a few times. A lot of those penalties were directed towards Australia not NZ, and I think a lot of that was because of what Rocky Eltham said to the ref in the first half. And I don’t think that Mitchell should have been sent off at all – sending off should be reserved for the worst possible offences, such as dangerous (head high and spear) tackles. The NZ prop did not make a dangerous tackle in my view.

The IRB need to realise that the public don’t want to watch games where the ref blows his whistle all the time and where the ref has undue power to alter the game – it is the public who are the ultimate funders of the sport after all, be it directly via pay TV and admission tickets or indirectly due to advertising. The emphasis this season seems to have shifted towards hasher penalties (there has been someone sent off in every tri nations game so far) and more whistle blowing. While that might be great for the IRB and for whistle manufacturers, it’s not so great for the spectacle that is Rugby Union.
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August 1, 2010 8:43am
Kris K

andrei 8:04 am,

Warning: Do not follow this link if you have just had breakfast – there is a high probability it will end up on your keyboard if you do.

There are some things which are simply beyond repentance and forgiveness!
May your hovercraft be filled with dead eels for subjecting us to that …
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August 1, 2010 8:49am
JiveKitty

“I now believe that there are 4 categories of political belief.

1. Conservativism: Things are good…don’t break what we’ve got.
2. Progressivism: Things are bad for the poor…we need to fix it.
3. Libertarianism: People are unfree…and government is the problem.
4. Politician: The political class needs more power.

Pretending that a politician can be conservative or progressive first, rather than politician first seems to be the basic problem.”

(http://aretae.blogspot.com/2010/07/hipocracy.html)

Fair call?
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August 1, 2010 8:57am
Inventory2

@ Gazzmaniac – I agree with you that much of the refereeing we’ve seen in the international season to date has been pedantic, and unfortunately, if a referee wants to stay on the IRB’s panel, he has to do what Paddy O’Brien dictates. There were a few decisions from Joubert last night that were questionable, but generally I thought he had a pretty good handle on things. He got stuck into the cheating at the breakdown early (and Richie McCaw is the best cheat in the world, because he knows when to stop!), and you can hardly quibble at a test match which produced ten tries. The ball was being recycled quickly, and the pace of the game almost beggared belief. We’ve got Kaplan next week, and if both teams take the same mindset into the match, it could be a classic.
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August 1, 2010 9:05am
Pete George

Is this really want we want to close the gap with?

AUSTRALIANS are increasingly dissatisfied by their employment conditions, with many risking their health through long working hours.

More than 20 per cent of Australian workers spend 50 hours or more a week at work and 60 per cent do not take regular holidays. A typical full-time worker performs more than 70 minutes of unpaid overtime a day and Australians have stockpiled more than $33.3 billion in leave, the equivalent to 123 million days.

A survey of 10,000 people to be released this week reveals Australians are becoming increasingly unhappy with their work-life balance.

A hard-working nation that’s losing its balance
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August 1, 2010 9:07am
mawm

Results of study on alcohol, drugs and road deaths

The 1046 drivers tested represented 89% of those killed on the roads between 2004-2009 – and almost half of them returned positive results for alcohol and drugs.

Of the 500 drivers who had used alcohol, cannabis or a combination of both, … 135 drivers used alcohol alone, 96 used only cannabis, 142 used both, and 127 used a combination of drugs.

The study showed 21 of 1046 deceased drivers had blood-alcohol levels between 50mg and 80mg. Only 10 (that is 1%) of them used alcohol alone, while the other 11 also used an impairing drug.

For drivers with levels above the current 80mg limit, 27% were between 81 and 160, 35% between 161 and 240 and 15% had levels over 240mg.

By far the majority of drink drivers were over the current legal limit, some well over it and only 1% of those who did not use imparing drugs were between 50 and 80mg.

The problem with drugs that cause impairment is massive and is unpoliced. The government should be addressing this problem rather than fiddling with lowering an alcohol level.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3978989/Drugs-deadly-on-our-roads-study
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August 1, 2010 9:10am
Pete George

That’s a strong argument for the status quo on the 80mg limit.
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August 1, 2010 9:19am
Robert Mapplethorpe

mawm, as I read that article this morning all I could keep thinking was correlation does not equal causation. There is a lot of info missing, such as the proportion of the dead who were at fault drivers. You know,it happens that a sober or undrugged driver causes an accident that results in the death of an inebriated or drugged driver that is then recorded as an alchol/drug death.
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August 1, 2010 9:21am
Caleb

i’d argue is worse in NZ Pete.
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August 1, 2010 9:24am
Guy Fawkes

There is nothing wrong with a zero limit for alcohol and drugs whilst an individual is in control of a motor vehicle.

It is perhaps seen as a bit over zealous, but the real issue is when the former are wrapped in with tiredness and the long distances

between places in NZ.

Also, if there is any drug or alcohol dependence than often that goes along with disrupted sleep patterns.
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August 1, 2010 9:26am
mawm

Robert – any study like this will have its weak points. I think the results are overwhelming enough to say that those over the current limit and drugged drivers are the largest problem on our roads.

Guy Fawkes – obviously zero would be the best solution, but you also need to address the others problems like tiredness, cell phones, kids causing distraction, lighting a fag, eating a burger, poor driving skills, impatientce, blatant disregard of road laws, etc. Then there is the poor quality of roading, ineffective or no barriers to prevent cars going over steep declines, un-WOF’d cars, kids (and others) driving cars too powerful for their abilities,etc.
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August 1, 2010 9:38am
Pete George

There is nothing wrong with a zero limit for alcohol and drugs whilst an individual is in control of a motor vehicle.

There is a lot wrong with that. Totally impractical and unfair.
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August 1, 2010 9:44am
TripeWryter

Something a little different …

I’m all for mothers breastfeeding, and in public, and without being harassed. I don’t get why some people would want to be offended by a mother doing a most maternal thing — feeding her child with milk from her breast.

Sometimes, people want to express their disgust, or fear and loathing and that’s a fact of life for mothers breastfeeding.

So, I can only conclude that the story in this morning’s Sunday Star-Times (online version, I refuse to buy it) was a beat-up.

A young mother had been bothered by someone who objected to her breastfeeding her baby in Wellington Library last Sunday. One mother. One baby. One botherer. Several people who had passed on giving ‘loving and approving looks’.

Where is the story?

To the young mum: it happens sometimes. Don’t fret about it, or about the individual. You’re doing a wonderful, natural thing, and may you continue to do it for a long time yet.
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August 1, 2010 9:46am
kaya

This looks good. Debate currently running on the Marae TV programme about “Is the Treaty of Waitangi holding us back”. Steven Franks just spoke and spoke very well.
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August 1, 2010 10:07am
kaya

Good grief, a politician speaking with common sense and on a normally very delicate subject. Franks is very good.
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August 1, 2010 10:13am
kaya

Oh for fuck sake, a Maori called Hana O’Regan speaks against the motion, says it all really. Go paddy – to be sure, to be sure. (Apologies, I just noticed she is wearing a 3 foot long tiki, she must be a Maori.)
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August 1, 2010 10:20am
nickb

Comment of the year on Red Alert:

http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2010/07/31/keys-lie-puts-free-trade-deal-down-us-agenda/

chris73 says:
July 31, 2010 at 12:00 pm

A vote for Phil Goff is a vote for a prosperous NZ

One month ban for lying. Trevor
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August 1, 2010 10:39am
kowtow

kaya

I watched Franks and think he’s bloody brilliant (turned off the minute O Regan got up)He handled the carefully chosen audience well . I loved Minto’s adoration of Maori nationalism,it’s so acceptable to the left(what would he think of Israeli or American nationalism, that would be classed as racist or imperialism!)

I love listening to Franks on the few occasions RNZ have him on in the afternoons.

He comes across as refreshingly honest,knowledgable and sensible,unlike so many of the politicians and pundits placed before us by our lords and masters in the MSM and the spin machine that passes as informed debate these days.
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August 1, 2010 10:54am
Manolo

McCarten on today’s Herald on Sunday spots Clark’s deadly hand in Chris(tine) Carter’s sorry saga, when he writes:
“Clark should take responsibility for her protege and offer him a job with her. The United Nations is known for its duplicity and endless perks. He’d love it.”
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August 1, 2010 11:00am
JiveKitty

Will there be a transcript of what Franks’ said somewhere online?
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August 1, 2010 11:20am
F E Smith

Interesting article on the moral problem of the surveillance state. The drink/drive debate fits in here also.

http://www.philosophynow.org/issue79/79westacott.htm
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August 1, 2010 11:27am
nickb

FE, I give it 10 minutes before someone says “I have nothing to hide, so what is the problem”?
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August 1, 2010 11:36am
F E Smith

nick, you may be conservative with that estimate: big bruv can’t be far away!
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August 1, 2010 11:39am
Manolo

The same tyrannical regime the deranged Rev. Don Borrie (Chairman NZ-DPRK Society) wants us to befriend:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/7918468/North-Korean-football-team-shamed-in-six-hour-public-inquiry-over-World-Cup.html
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August 1, 2010 11:54am
Nookin

Meanwhile, elsewhere, proof positive that a leopard does not change its spots

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3979543/Armed-Burton-sparks-investigation
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August 1, 2010 12:04pm
mawm

FE – For laws to be enforced there has to be surveillance.

Just as it is necessary to find out what our foes are doing so as to protect our citizens, so it is necessary to find the drink drivers to do the same. Naturally drink driving is not going to be stopped with increased surveillance, but rather by increased application of the laws and sufficient deterrence.
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August 1, 2010 12:04pm
Nookin

Mawm
Not necessarily. The likelihood of detection also has a direct bearing.

Increasing penalties will do nothing unless offenders have an increased apprehension of being caught.
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August 1, 2010 12:10pm
mawm

Nookin – You’re correct..
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August 1, 2010 12:20pm
kaya

JiveKitty – Re Franks on the Marae TV show, not sure about a transcript but it is available to view on the TVNZ website.

http://tvnz.co.nz/marae/s2010-waitangi-special-video-3348418
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August 1, 2010 12:25pm
F E Smith

Mawm, you see, your argument is precisely the point. Somewhere along the way we have forgotten that the government rules with the consent of the governed. We are the authority from which Parliament, and, from that body, the Police, draw their legitimacy. We are not serfs to be told what to do and how to do it; nor are we children who must be watched for our own safety- although that is what Government would have you believe.

Policing is, for the most part, supposed to be reactionary. While there is an element of prevention, even that is supposed to be occur when there is actually a likelihood that the law is being, or going to be, broken. The surveillance state presumes that the law is being broken by every person in the country (other than th surveillors, of course), they just haven’t been caught yet.

Are you willing for your car to be fitted with a gps unit linked to a Police surveillance centre? Or an interlock fitted that you must blow into each time you go to start your car? Or perhaps cameras in your home, all linked to that same surveillance centre?

Once you start to accept that surveillance by law enforcement authorities is necessary, then the only argument is how far you go in imposing that surveillance on the people.

I take the contrary view. Surveillance without a reasonable belief that a crime is being committed is unnecessary and abhorrent to a free society.
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August 1, 2010 12:36pm
kaya

What FE Smith said @ 12.36
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August 1, 2010 12:42pm
Nookin

FE
Do you mean “a specific crime” or “any crime”. In my hometown, there is a problem with alcohol and vandalism. I have not the slightest problem with CTV surveillance cameras in public areas because given that most of the incidents take place at night (at anytime), the prospects of apprehension are close to zero. In fact, arrests are quite infrequent. I have no reason at all to believe that a crime might be committed on any particular night or in any particular area. I do know that if there are surveillance cameras (and unfortunately there are not), there is a reasonable chance that the offenders will be caught, made to pay for the costs of their escapades and, preferably, contribute to the costs of installation of the surveillance cameras as well. From my perspective, if I am walking downtown and the camera sees me, I do not give a damn.
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August 1, 2010 12:51pm
Kris K

F E Smith 12:36 pm,

Mawm, you see, your argument is precisely the point. Somewhere along the way we have forgotten that the government rules with the consent of the governed. We are the authority from which Parliament, and, from that body, the Police, draw their legitimacy. We are not serfs to be told what to do and how to do it; nor are we children who must be watched for our own safety- although that is what Government would have you believe.

Absolutely agree, FES.
We need more surveillance like we need a hole in the head.

And from your link in your 11:27 am comment:

Does Surveillance Make Us Morally Better?

Emrys Westacott asks a probing question.

Imagine that right after briefing Adam about which fruit was allowed and which forbidden, God had installed a closed-circuit television camera in the garden of Eden, trained on the tree of knowledge. Think how this might have changed things for the better. The serpent sidles up to Eve and urges her to try the forbidden fruit. Eve reaches her hand out – in paradise the fruit is always conveniently within reach – but at the last second she notices the CCTV and thinks better of it. Result: no sin, no Fall, no expulsion from paradise. We don’t have to toil among thorns and thistles for the rest of our lives, earning our bread by the sweat of our brows; childbirth is painless; and we feel no need to wear clothes.

So why didn’t God do that and save everyone a lot of grief? True, surveillance technology was in its infancy back then, but He could have managed it, and it wouldn’t have undermined Eve’s free will. She still has a choice to make; but once she sees the camera she’s more likely to make the right choice. The most likely explanation would be that God doesn’t just want Adam and Eve to make the right choices; he wants them to make the right choices for the right reasons. Not eating the forbidden fruit because you’re afraid you’ll be caught doesn’t earn you moral credit. After all, you’re only acting out of self-interest. If paradise suffered a power cut and the surveillance was temporarily down, you’d be in there straight away with the other looters.

[…]

And that is EXACTLY the point:
Do we want society filled with morally upright people who will “make the right choices for the right reasons”, or do we want people to be motivated to make choices simply because they are being watched?

If society ever gets to the point where we ALL NEED TO BE WATCHED ALL OF THE TIME, then heaven help us – time to book a one way ticket out of here!
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August 1, 2010 12:59pm
mawm

FE – so in your argument you’d only detect the drunk driver who has already caused harm.

The government is there to serve the people, but people can give power to the govt, and one of those powers must surely be to protect us as citizens. That is one of the fundamental ‘duties’ of any govt and laws, and their application, will need to be made to do so.

Thomas Jefferson had much to say about freedom and govt. He also said “No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him“. Drunk drivers are doing just that and the need to be prevented from doing so.

I’m just as against govt interference in my life as you and some balance has to be acheived – that is where who you elect is important. Unfortunately governments do not see it that way.
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August 1, 2010 1:04pm
mawm

KK – Do we want society filled with morally upright people who will “make the right choices for the right reasons”, or do we want people to be motivated to make choices simply because they are being watched?

Judeo-Christian societies (this is not a religious argument) have always striven for that but much has changed and people have become selfish and ignorant, and values have changed. In a democracy the majority elect their representatives and it up to a majority to change them if they are not doing what they want. Unfortunately I don’t have much faith in the majority or their elected government.
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August 1, 2010 1:15pm
Robert Mapplethorpe

mawm (89) Says:

August 1st, 2010 at 1:04 pm
FE – so in your argument you’d only detect the drunk driver who has already caused harm.
(…)

Drunk drivers are doing just that and the need to be prevented from doing so.

And your “solution” is to presume all drivers are drunk unless they prove themselves sober. Your “solution” is not addressing drunk drivers, it is an attack on the rights of free men to go freely about their lawful business.

The police, the politicians and the purveyors of surveillance equipment keep elevating levels of fear in the population so they can attract more power and dollars to their empires.
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August 1, 2010 1:25pm
Shunda barunda

Margaret Thatcher said “the veneer of civilization is very thin” after the power went out in New York.
If we don’t invest in “doing right” when times are good we sure as hell won’t do it when times are bad.
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August 1, 2010 1:26pm
mawm

Robert – Your “solution” is not addressing drunk drivers, it is an attack on the rights of free men to go freely about their lawful business.

No it is not. You nailed yourself with “lawful”
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August 1, 2010 1:31pm
kaya

Change of topic for a moment. One compelling argument for a death penalty.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10662762

Absolutely no doubt of guilt, absolutely no redeeming characteristics, absolutely no chance of rehabilitation, absolutely worthless oxygen thief who has no place on the planet. Generally I am opposed to a death penalty, this reprobate is an exception.
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August 1, 2010 2:26pm
Robert Mapplethorpe

mawm, HOW have I “nailed” myself.

My contention is that when I am driving my car, sober, I have done nothing wrong and therefore have nothing to prove. I am going about my lawful business.

You, however, see me as guilty of drink driving unless and until I have proven otherwise. You are quite content in reversing the onus of proof from the accuser to the accused.
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August 1, 2010 2:44pm
Manolo

I agree with kaya. Burton should’ve been executed long, long ago. He is the vilest scum imaginable.
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August 1, 2010 2:56pm
reid

“Australians have stockpiled more than $33.3 billion in leave, the equivalent to 123 million days.”

I wouldn’t mind having 123 million days of paid leave. That’d be really good.
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August 1, 2010 3:52pm
jaba

“It is a pretty open secret that I don’t like opposition and that I considered retiring. I decided that we could win and that while the 2008 intake is brilliant they could do with a few more experienced hands helping them Phil and Annette in government”.

this is a daffy post on Redalert .. I considered retiring .. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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August 1, 2010 4:09pm
Kris K

kaya 2:26 pm,

Absolutely no doubt of guilt, absolutely no redeeming characteristics, absolutely no chance of rehabilitation, absolutely worthless oxygen thief who has no place on the planet. Generally I am opposed to a death penalty, this reprobate is an exception.

I am generally FOR the death penalty in extreme cases – Burton and Bell always come to mind as two individuals I would have no qualms about, and are the perfect examples of who should benefit “from a long drop with a short rope”. And similarly to Kaya, they are unrepentant, beyond rehabilitation, if ever released would be guaranteed to commit more violent crime, and in Burton’s case; is an ongoing threat to other inmates and prison staff.
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August 1, 2010 4:15pm
reid

As a Christian Kris how do you reconcile that?
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August 1, 2010 4:39pm
Shunda barunda

I reckon!!!
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August 1, 2010 4:50pm
Pete George

they are unrepentant,

If they repented and became Christians would it make a difference?
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August 1, 2010 4:52pm
mattyroo

What do these fuckwits propose instead of Hydro generation?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10662855

Nuclear???? Me thinks not.
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August 1, 2010 4:56pm
malcolm

Mattyroo, a decent electricity market (i.e. one where domestic consumers can pay the spot price) would improve utilisation of existing generation capacity and energy significantly. Which would mean less new generation required. E.g. how many people use the delayed start on their dishwasher so it runs in the wee hours when electricity demand is lowest? Basically none, because you don’t see the benefit of the cheaper energy at that time. Same with hotwater heating etc.

The electricity market is akin to a supermarket which must have a fixed annual price for fillet steak and can’t ever run out. Even at 6 pm on Sunday. Or the first sunny weekend of summer. You can imagine the wastage and over-capacity that entails. That is our electricity market. And that’s partly why we need more new capacity than would be the case if we had a proper market.
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August 1, 2010 5:36pm
reid

So what is the answer, malcolm.

What aspects of it don’t work, and why?
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August 1, 2010 5:44pm
Put it away

mattyroo – they probably don’t think it’s necessary to have an alternative power source if they ban enough forms of power use… light will be first, then heat…
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August 1, 2010 5:48pm
Robert Mapplethorpe

What did new Zealanders use for light before candles?
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August 1, 2010 6:14pm
WebWrat

Wait for it. The Ginger Walrus will be on tomorrow night with a hyped up animal rights drama about inducing dairy to abort their calves.
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August 1, 2010 6:47pm
malcolm

Reid, the problem is that much of the electricity consumption is outside of any sensible market. Only the big players (power companies and very big consumers) buy on the market. Everyone else buys at a fixed price. I.e. at home you pay a fixed price for each unit of energy, irrespective of the actual cost. Which varies significantly throughout the day and throughout the year. A fixed price divorced from the underlying cost leads to inefficient use and the need for extra peak capacity (both generation and transmission). And we all pay extra for that inefficiency.

What would help? An electricity market where everyone sees the true cost, at all times. And can act accordingly. At 7pm in the middle of winter of a dry year, the instantaneous price of electricity is very very high. But we only see a fudged fixed-price, so we start the dishwasher, our hotwater cylinders click on-and-off oblivious and we throw a load of washing in the dryer. A real market with intelligent devices and informed consumers would see people starting their dishwasher and dryer on delayed start and their water heater waiting until after the evening peak before reheating for the next morning. And you would get cheaper electricity as a result.

What needs to be done? The power companies have little incentive to create a proper market, so I think the government should give things a shove. E.g. off the top of my head: give power companies 2 years to make available to all their customers the ability to buy electricity in say 15 minute slots, at the spot price plus a margin. The power companies would need to approve a range of intelligent meters which the consumer could have installed at their own expense. The meters would get the spot price via the internet, plus forecast prices etc, and have some open connectivity format so you could connect intelligent appliances. E.g. the likes of F&P are just waiting for a standard to emerge so they can start offering these appliances. E.g. you shove your clothes in the dryer and hit the “before tomorrow morning” button. Between the appliance and the meter/internet they decide when it is likely to be the cheapest time to run and it’s done. Same with the dishwasher etc. Once the 15-minute spot market is in place, there is endless scope for 3rd parties to make appliances, controllers etc which get price info off the internet and control your heating, applicance etc.

A lot of consumption in the home cannot be deferred (e.g. when you want light you want it now), but there are big items on the horizon like plug-in hybrid cars which can make use of cheaper electricity bought intelligently throughout the day. The other advantage of a reall market is that renewables energy can find it’s own price and market. At the moment there is only a fixed price for continuous supply. Renewables like wind don’t really fit in that market.

Anyway, I can’t see the current government doing anything on this. NZ used to lead in the electricity arena, but not for quite a long time now.
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August 1, 2010 6:56pm
eszett

# reid (4,511) Says:
August 1st, 2010 at 4:39 pm

As a Christian Kris how do you reconcile that?

You can justify anything with religion. It is futile to point out the inconsistencies, idiocies and contradictions to any religious fanatic.
If he would think, he would see them himself.

Thou shall not kill is more a recommended guideline than a commandment.

I am sure Kris K can rattle off ten bible quotes justifying the death penalty of the top of his head.

Ultimately the bible is used merely to project of your own moral standpoint and then use it as justification.
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August 1, 2010 6:58pm
WebWrat

Oops! Sposed to be ‘dairy cows’.
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August 1, 2010 7:04pm
WebWrat

This religion of anti-religion is boring my tits off.
Bloody anti-religion fanatics!
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August 1, 2010 7:13pm
krazykiwi

Shit it’s raining hard in Wellington. Just thought I’d mention it …
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August 1, 2010 7:16pm
krazykiwi

What would help? An electricity market where everyone sees the true cost, at all times. And can act accordingly.

Yup malcolm.. completely agree. I recall discussing this with you over a beer a while back. Consumers who are confident enough to make real-time power useage decisions should be given the scope to do this.
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August 1, 2010 7:19pm
reid

malcolm, thanks for your thoughtful response.

DPF mentioned he hooks up via a spot-price provider that does the very thing you raise. Probably he’s drunk in London right now so he may not care to give us a link but…yeah.

It is futile to point out the inconsistencies, idiocies and contradictions to any religious fanatic.

eszett people who’ve never in their lives been exposed to religious thinking as normal background noise sometimes find it hard to distinguish a fanatic from a person in Christ.

I use Churchill’s definition of a fanatic: someone who won’t change their mind and won’t change the subject.

In my experience, most people in Christ also talk about things other than Christ, and that’s a pretty big clue to me, that they’re not a fanatic.

Blessings eszett, and peace, my brother or sister.
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August 1, 2010 8:01pm
Nomestradamus

Reid:

DPF mentioned he hooks up via a spot-price provider that does the very thing you raise. Probably he’s drunk in London right now so he may not care to give us a link but…yeah.

Well, Reid, I’m sober and happy to help you out – twice 🙂
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August 1, 2010 8:53pm
reid

“I’m sober”

Sundays. Why can’t we have two Saturdays instead?
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August 1, 2010 9:27pm
malcolm

I recall discussing this with you over a beer a while back.

Yeah, I’ll tell anyone who will listen. Reid was unfortunate enough to ask..

Reid, Powershop is just a twist on the basic “fixed-price-all-you-can-eat-anytime-and-never-mind-the-true-cost-and-we’ll-take-care-of-peak-capacity-to-supply-your-uninformed-consumption-but-of-course-you’ll-ultimately-pay-for-all-the-inefficiency-anyway” way of selling electricity. There won’t be a step-change until we get time-of-use metering and exposure to the real instantaneous price.

My explanation above about smart appliances talking to the internet etc was too complicated. All you need is a meter which stores your consumption by time slots. And for the power company to charge you the actual price for each slot and to be able to see the instantaneous price, say on the internet. All the other innovations would evolve once that market was in place. It might be as simple as you being aware of when the price peaks are each day, and avoiding them. Or you might buy a $5 timer from the warehouse for your hotwater cylinder. Or you might buy the $20 wifi widget from Dick Smith which you put in the kitchen and which shows you a spot price projection for the next 24 hours and you act accordingly using your appliances’ delayed starts etc. Smart appliances etc would follow.
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August 1, 2010 9:57pm
reid

“My explanation above about smart appliances talking to the internet etc was too complicated.”

The only thing I steer clear of malcolm is orbital re-entry calculations because they frighten me for obvious reasons. Everything else I’m pretty cool with so run it by me, pray tell.

I agree with smart appliances. What’s with the insane approach to install dumb “smart” meters that will need an upgrade to enable such, when they could have done it, right now? I mean, WTF? You big sillies.

Re: the gadgets, I’ve always been keen on one of those toy railway contraptions that also cooks your breakfast along the way as it moves though various contrafibulations and the first power company that offers me one of those for signing up, has my business.
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August 1, 2010 10:09pm
Pauleastbay

Matt Mccarten in the herald on Sunday on Carter

……………Clarks need to surround herself with creatures like carter and rewarding them with high office ,reflects a personal flaw……………….

Love ..creatures like carter…………

This is simply the best article on the whole affair I’ve heard or read, it makes anything I’ve read here or anything by The Whale look lauditory towards Chrissy boy, brilliant
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August 1, 2010 10:26pm
reid

A link would have been really good, paul.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10662674
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August 1, 2010 10:58pm
reid

Carter is insisting predictably on keeping his snout in the public trough as an independent. Clark should take responsibility for her protege and offer him a job with her. The United Nations is known for its duplicity and endless perks. He’d love it. She’d have her playmate back and the good folk of Te Atatu would be able to elect a new MP who takes public service seriously.

Well said Matt. Bravo. Encore. Say it lots and lots over the next week or so, Matt. Please.
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August 1, 2010 11:08pm

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