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August 18, 2010 7:59am by David Farrar

General Debate 18 August 2010

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Yvette

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August 18, 2010 8:00am
RRM

Boscowen…

What is it, that you lot say, when someone new comes into parliament for the first time as a Labour list MP?

Pretty sure it’s something about entering Parliament “through the back door”….
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August 18, 2010 8:11am
Jibbering Gibbon

Don’t be a try-baby, be a do-baby! ~ Peggy Hill

Now then, what obligations, if any, do children have to their parents? Are parents owed a debt by children, and if so, what is it? What about society? What obligations does any person have to the civilisation they are born into?
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August 18, 2010 8:17am
mickysavage

So why was Heather Roy dumped?

And why won’t Key and Hide say the reason? They must know.

After all I thought this lot were going to be open and transparent and Rodney was going to bust perks …
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August 18, 2010 8:28am
Yvette

“One out of the blue” –
Quite some time ago various people who comment on kiwiblog referred to a message, supposedly from God, which made up a sequence of numbers in the calculations of the value π or pi. I wish to refer to this in something I am doing and would appreciate anyone knowing of this ‘message’ posting a comment to give a URL or information which would help me track it down. Thank you.
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August 18, 2010 8:28am
hj

Down with Trotter!!!!
Toad [yeah I know! 😉 ] says:
@Sam (Race War) Buchanan 8:22 PM

Lew at Kiwipolitico labeled Trotter as “a confused and angry old racist“.

Sadly, I don’t think Lew is far wrong. It is indeed sad that people like Trotter haven’t moved on, and still yearn for the ascent to power of the cloth-cap wearing, white, working class man. Never mind the women, or the Maori, or the Pasifika or Asian immigrants, or the GLBT community, or the disabled.

Trotter is an anachronism. Unfortunately, much of the left still treats him like God. He gets to speak, or sing, at union rallies – despite his putting down many of the attendees who are not white hetero men.

Either Trotter needs to move on, or those of us who are genuinely fighting for social justice need to move on from him.
http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/08/17/general-debate-august-17-2010/
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August 18, 2010 8:28am
stephen

Lew at Kiwipolitico labeled Trotter as “a confused and angry old racist“.

That was Danyl Mclauchlan actually. Probably a bit strong for old Lew.
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August 18, 2010 8:35am
hj

UNDERSTANDING THE CONFLICTS WITHIN A BICULTURAL NEW ZEALAND
The Chinese population in New Zealand, comprising these two main groups, both fired up by (until recently) burgeoning Asian economies, and a resurgent China, seek to build a “multi-cultural” society in order to be able to assert their cultural identity to an extent consistent with their numbers, resources, energy etc. Within a democratic society they expect equality before the law and at least decreasing racial discrimination.
http://www.stevenyoung.co.nz/The-Chinese-in-New-Zealand/Other-articles/The-Chinese-in-a-Bicultural-New-Zealand.html
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August 18, 2010 8:43am
Pete George

Act keeping their mouths closed, but the problem with that is many pundits are talking freely.

“Hide couldn’t even unite and lead a caucus of five.”
“Act remain in parliament (not just government) at the whim of John Key.”

There are plenty of Act promoters here – how is Act going to become a viable independent political force? It’s not working at the moment, at a time it should be easiest with National straddling the centre leaving a decent sized space to the right for the taking.
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August 18, 2010 8:44am
Murray

I see Julia Gillard just conceeded the Australian election.

could be a lesson in there for a few people. Minority doesn’t rule and impose itself on others in a democracy. Deal with it.
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August 18, 2010 8:53am
Jibbering Gibbon

“Hide couldn’t even unite and lead a caucus of five.”

To be fair (that’s my stupid cliche phrase of the week) it is easier to unite a larger group than a smaller one. The more people you have muddying the intepretation of your commands, the greater the buffer for error you have.

“There are plenty of Act promoters here – how is Act going to become a viable independent political force?”

The same way it always should have – by being guided by their 20 point plan, rather than the route of all other parties (except, possibly, the Greens) in being a cult of personality. Once ACT becomes about Rodney or Douglas or even Boscawen – it’s over. Well ok not over, over, but the route to whatever will change the political/economic staus quo for NZ will have to go the long way round.
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August 18, 2010 8:54am
Murray

hj New Zealand isn’t “bi-culteral”. Its mono-clutrual. If its not Maori it can just piss the hell right off. Ask Hone.
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August 18, 2010 8:54am
Jibbering Gibbon

New Zealand isn’t “bi-culteral”. Its mono-clutrual…

that is so true. When culter meets clutru, it always ends in teras.
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August 18, 2010 9:00am
Pete George

Cults or cluts Murray?
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August 18, 2010 9:00am
Jibbering Gibbon

could be a lesson in there for a few people. Minority doesn’t rule and impose itself on others in a democracy. Deal with it.

This is an old and wise lesson, illustrated by all those species and peoples that failed to adapt and then died out or were exterminated – by minorites.
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August 18, 2010 9:05am
Mr Magister

Got my call from a National Party apparatchik last night.

NPA: Ah hi, I note you haven’t renewed your membership. I’ve sent out a couple of forms and I wonder if it’s worth sending some again.
MM: No, probably not, thanks all the same.
NPA: Okay no problem.
MM: Actually, I’m quite disappointed –
NPA: Thanks, ‘bye.

I wonder when they will start listening again?
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August 18, 2010 9:05am
dime

apparently Israel only have 3 days left to nail Irans nuclear program. the peace loving russians and gonna start fuelling the reactors this weekend.

will Obama step in and do the job for them? or wil he just let Iran go nuclear?

in other news – the dude running the iranian UAV program was blown up this week. 3 bombs went off in his “secure” compound. Terrorists with access to UAV’s wouldnt be a good thing. Anyway, the program is now stalled, will add years to the development. nice.
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August 18, 2010 9:05am
MikeNZ

Wheres the url dime, I missed that one?

The next war is in preparation with the connivance of the UN and UNFIL troops.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38707834/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

meanwhile the democracies of the world give their citizens hard earned monies to tyrwants and despots who have no regard for democracy.
http://www.economist.com/node/16793370?story_id=16793370&fsrc=rss

and another good reason for Israel to exist.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3936990,00.html
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August 18, 2010 9:14am
Murray

dime if Obama steps in it will be to provide the bloody warheads to the Iranians. What president have you been watching?
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August 18, 2010 9:15am
dime

mike – http://www.debka.com
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August 18, 2010 9:16am
dime

Murray – i live in hope! waiting for him to change haha

iran going nuclear just before the mid-terms wont be a good thing for the dems.
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August 18, 2010 9:18am
MikeNZ

JB

National doesn’t straddle the centre it is left of centre with a few at centre and even fewer right of centre.
I don’t vote ACT by choice I am a natural centre voter which might mean National.
BUT
National has drifted left of centre so that there is little difference between Labour and National.
That’s why I have voted ACT my party vote last time and will next time as National need hand holding for our future well being as a nation.
The 20 pt plan is a good start. http://www.act.org.nz/files/pledge/20pointplan.pdf

I particularly like 1,2,3,4,5,6, 12, 14, 16,17,18,19,20
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August 18, 2010 9:20am
hj

Underpinning the attractiveness of self determination for indigenous people is the idea that indigenous cultures given resources(especially 3 dimensional space) can prosper in a modern economy. This idea is touched on in an article called 20th Century Blues which appeared in Time Magazine some years ago where they compare the advantages and disadvantages of living in a modern industrial society with primitive societies. The ills of modern society seem to start with the need for a division of labour, which of necessity separates neighbor from neighbor, kin from kin.The left are always hankering for an alternative to capitalism and are more inclined to be receptive to the idea…( or so it seems to me).
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August 18, 2010 9:27am
Pete George

Twenty point plans are no good if you don’t have the MPs to act on them. With Roy sidelined, and presumably Douglas with her, the leadership, lineup and outlook are looking very weak.

Security complaint triggered sacking

Relations between former Act deputy Heather Roy and leader Rodney Hide had become so bad that she complained to Ministerial Services that he breached security when he took a piece of paper relating to her defence portfolio from her office.

The Herald understands the complaint was a recent occurrence and not only reflected the bad relationship between the two but precipitated her removal yesterday by the caucus.

If this is anywhere near accurate Hide is not leading the charge, he is placing the charge and lighting the fuse.
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August 18, 2010 9:29am
Inventory2

I wonder if Georgina Beyer has declared her parliamentary superannuation when applying for the unemployment benefit.

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/08/its-hard-to-be-sympathetic.html
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August 18, 2010 9:31am
Owen McShane

National – Kiwiblog
Greens – Frogblog
Liibertarians – Not PC

Where is the ACT blog?

And if it exists why don’t I know where it is?
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August 18, 2010 9:32am
Hagues

“There are plenty of Act promoters here – how is Act going to become a viable independent political force?”

The same way it always should have – by being guided by their 20 point plan…”

Exactly, ACT really need to focus on the economy and the failute of National to be true to their values viz a viz continuing tax and spend, shuffle the deckchairs, tax and spend. Traditional National voters need to vote for ACT if they want anything other than more of the same socialist nonsense we’ve had for the past 12 years or so. No point promising to stop your kids fleeing to Oz before the election and then say it was just an asperation and you have no plan to try and achieve the goal after.
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August 18, 2010 9:43am
Inventory2

@ Pete George – Audrey Young is not renowned for making things up. I would imagine that she has had the bully from someone failrly close to Heather Roy’s office to go to print with an allegation of that nature.
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August 18, 2010 9:43am
KiwiGreg

@ hj “The ills of modern society ”

What ills? This is the best of all times to be alive.
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August 18, 2010 9:46am
Pete George

Like in parliament, Act seem to try and hitch a ride on National judging by the number of claim jumpers here.

Anyway, I don’t think it’s entirely accurate calling Kiwiblog a National blog, it’s a blog pretty much open to any Kiwis who want to participate. Sure, DPF has well known connections with National, but it’s far more open than any other political blog. Kiwiblog probably tolerates more legitimate criticism of National than any other blog.
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August 18, 2010 9:46am
Redbaiter

Yet more shonky GW data comes to light. Global temperatures have a ten degree error. (on the warming side of course) When will this corrupt sham be put to rest? Nothing but another leftist fraud aimed at securing financial resources for the further expansion of global socialism.

http://www.revolutionbroadcasting.com/?p=692
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August 18, 2010 9:48am
Pete George

I2 – yes, it sounded like authentic inside information. I guess Roy has nothing much to lose right now, so why not try and leak a bit of vindication for her position. Doesn’t look good for Hide, maybe Roy just has to be patient, like Goff’s successor.
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August 18, 2010 9:52am
hj

KiwiGreg (1,358) Says:
August 18th, 2010 at 9:46 am

@ hj “The ills of modern society ”
http://www.reocities.com/Athens/stage/8922/
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August 18, 2010 10:34am
Viking2

When you fella’s have talked all your nonsence over Heather start and think about what’s going on in front of your eyes.
Consider what is happening in National over the Foreshore and Seabed. Consider what Boscowan has to say about that deal.
Read what Key had to say about Roy and the end of the need for her defence role.
Look at John Ansels blog.
Then decide what you want done with the foreshore.

Note, Key did say he wouldn’t have, (as opposed to didn’t), want Sir Roger in Cabinet, too right wing for a left of centre Govt. (Key’s words.) but take a peek at what English has had to say lately. Both He and his little brother Connor are moving to the right. They realise of course that it is intheir farming interest to do so.

Still if you haven’t figured it out by tonight come back and I will explain it to you. (perhaps.)
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August 18, 2010 10:42am
Jack5

hj at 8.43am posted an interesting pointer about Chinese in NZ…

The blog referred to, on the site of Steven Young & Associates, Consulting Engineers, seems pretty old. The last dated posts on the main page are in 2007.

It makes some interesting points about the history of Chinese in NZ and about how Chinese NZers are pushing for “multiculturalism” to replace “biculturalism”.

It makes at least one error when it says of Chinese and Maori:

… If the DNA evidence is to be believed, they even share a common ancestry….

In fact the DNA shows Maori and other Polynesians link back to the aboriginal people of Taiwan, who have been marginalised, pushed to the fringe, and have almost died out in the Chinese colonisation of Taiwan. The Chinese monoculturalism in Taiwan stands in stark contrast to white-Maori biculturalism in New Zealand and to the NZ multiculturalism now being pushed.

Generally, however, this blog is a very interesting, moderately tone read. I liked this paragraph:

… However, it is pertinent to point out that the way forward in a bicultural New Zealand is not to be assimilated into the dominant European/American/ersatz Maori culture but to take the best of Chinese culture and to adapt it to local conditions.
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August 18, 2010 10:46am
RightNow

More evidence that CAGW is just another doomsday cult:
Gavin Schmidt provided this figure showing what happened if you took two of the dodgy proxy series out of the constructed climate record. http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/supplements/MultiproxyMeans07/NHcps_no7_v_orig_Nov2009.pdf

The black line is with all the proxies, the light blue line is without the two dodgy proxies.
To me the differences are startling. The Roman Climate Optimum is HOT, and the MWP is at least as hot as recent warming (complete with UHI).

So the big scary hockey stick is just a normal graph if you take out the dodgy ‘data’. This is tree ring proxy data (for various reasons tree rings are just not reliable temperature proxies – e.g. the ring growth also depends on rainfall), and the Tijlander lake sediments (the series that Mann flipped upside down to make fit the stick).

For an interesting debate read the thread I got this from:
http://www.collide-a-scape.com/2010/06/16/the-main-hindrance-to-dialogue-and-detente/
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August 18, 2010 10:59am
mawm

Viking 2 – Consider what is happening in National over the Foreshore and Seabed.

I hope you’ll cast your considered vote on the poll running at Stuff.co.nz

If you don’t know what it is about go and read Muriel Newman’s piece at http://www.nzcpr.com/weekly240.htm
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August 18, 2010 11:16am
grumpyoldhori

Dime, the Israelis can be utter utter fools, but even they are not dumb enough to go in and bomb a reactor staffed by Russians in Iran.
Not a wise move to piss off Vlad the impaler unless they want to see a barrage of Russian cruise missiles arriving in Israel.

Even Bush had more brains than that.
Yet some here want to see Obama get the US military to go in and kill Russians in Iran, now that would be bloody clever, taking on a country that can cause the US real problems.
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August 18, 2010 12:20pm
Lance

On the topic of Nukes

So when is Pakistan going to sell it’s Nukes to pay for the flood relief?
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August 18, 2010 12:41pm
hj

Which billboard is best?
http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2010/08/09/we-will-fight-key-on-the-beaches-join-the-campaign-focus-group/
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August 18, 2010 1:18pm
starboard

how this blah from the sub-standard y’day….what sort of thinking person would write such dribble..

prosaic 4
17 August 2010 at 3:03 pm
“It’s John Key and his greedy mates who have the power to reduce child abuse and child murder by lowering unemployment and poverty and bringing back education”
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August 18, 2010 2:00pm
Redbaiter

“what sort of thinking person would write such dribble..”

A robotic type of person. A one time humanoid that had a blank disk where its brain should be and then that disk was programmed with derelict commie shit.
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August 18, 2010 2:06pm
starboard

hmm Pete G springs to mind…
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August 18, 2010 2:29pm
Redbaiter

Exactly, except with PG, the whole damn thing is derelict, and the disk has so many bad sectors it only operates sporadically and malfunctions when it does.
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August 18, 2010 2:32pm
MikeNZ

Abuse happens on all sides, it’s how we deal with it that matters.
http://www.shovrimshtika.org/press_item_e.asp?id=81

Samar Abdullah stood pale and helpless on the road. He is a cab driver from the village of Safarin, southeast of Tul Karm, and the father of five children. He was formerly a construction worker, but a ruptured disk in his back forced him to find a different job. He had been on the road for only three months. Abdullah wasn’t familiar with the orders of behavior for the unmanned iron gate that blocks the road between Tul Karm and Nablus, and therefore he crossed the barely visible traces of the blurred yellow line on the road. Within a few minutes an Israel Defense Forces jeep arrived and three soldiers leaped out and started shouting at the stunned driver. They grabbed the keys to the cab roughly and left. By what authority did they do so? When and where will Abdullah get his property back? No one bothered to give him any answers.
The next day IDF Spokesperson’s Office stated: “There is no order in the IDF to confiscate keys.”

That was a few months ago. It’s an act that has become routine on the roads of the West Bank. Anyone who goes by checkpoints sees dozens of cars that have been confiscated from Palestinians. Anyone who drives on the dirt roads in the region, which the Palestinians find in a desperate effort to get to school, work or medical clinics, sees soldiers or Border Police who are confiscating cars in the best case, or shooting at their tires and beating the passengers in other cases.

In April of this year, the Haaretz Magazine published photographs of about 100 keys that were confiscated from drivers in the Bethlehem area and collected for display in an exhibition by a soldier who wishes to be identified only by the first letter of his name, Y., a member of the Breaking the Silence group.
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August 18, 2010 2:46pm
RightNow

Climate scientists showing that they don’t have an agenda they want to fit the data to?

“If you ask me as a person, do I think the Russian heat wave has to do with climate change, the answer is yes,” said Gavin Schmidt, a climate researcher with NASA in New York. “If you ask me as a scientist whether I have proved it, the answer is no — at least not yet.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/science/earth/15climate.html?_r=2&th&emc=th

I’m sure he’ll manufacture a proof given time and funding.
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August 18, 2010 2:53pm
Hurf Durf

Who cares about ACT? They only got 2% of the vote, as Phool so regularly regurgitated. They’re nothing. They’re irrelevent, just like Palin. So who cares, other than MickySavage and RRM and the rest of the Labour lickspittles? A minor party shits the bed and all of a sudden it’s the rebirth of Lenin. I mean, that’s all ACT is, isn’t it? An irrelevent little minor party?
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August 18, 2010 5:07pm
krazykiwi

@RightNow – the alarmists don’t need evidence of climate changes increasing natural disasters. They just need Photoshop as the High Priest Algore (praise be to him) did a while back: Al Gore’s Photoshop Work Violates Physical Laws , at a time when global tropical cyclone activity was at a 30 year low.
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August 18, 2010 5:16pm
Hurf Durf

Director of Al-Arabiya TV comes out against Ground Zero Mosque.

“Muslims do not [really] yearn [to build] a mosque near the 9/11 cemetery, nor do they care whether bin Laden’s cook is tried in a civilian court [or a military one]. Muslims are concerned about issues that involve the destinies of [entire] peoples… such as the establishment of the Palestinian state. If Obama focuses his energy and efforts on fighting for peace in the Middle East, this will be [far] more important and valuable than [his stance in favor of] the New York mosque…

“The [Ground Zero] mosque… is a strange affair, because it is not an issue [that concerns] the Muslims. [In fact,] we never even heard of it until it became the focus of vociferous arguments between supporters and objectors, most of them non-Muslim Americans!…

“The Muslims never asked for this [mosque], and even the angry Muslims do not want it. This is one of the few times when the two opposing sides are in agreement. Nevertheless, the dispute flared up. It made the front pages of newspapers and [featured on] the major television programs. Demonstrations were held in the streets, and large posters were plastered on New York buses, demanding that the construction of the mosque be prevented and reminding everyone of the 9/11 crime. This really is a strange battle!

“I can’t imagine that Muslims [actually] want a mosque at this particular location, because it will become an arena for the promoters of hatred, and a monument to those who committed the crime. Moreover, there are no practicing Muslims in the area who need a place to worship, because it is a commercial district. Is there anyone who is [really] eager [to build] this mosque?…

But hey, only horrible, racist Amurkkkans (70% of them including Harry Reid) could possibly be opposed to it.
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August 18, 2010 5:21pm
lastmanstanding

On another thread methinks we will see a solution to the Alan Hubbard debacle.

My bet is that gien the SFO and Sec Com suffered from premature ejaculation going after AH a deal will be done where AH stands down and aside from all interests in SCF in return for the Gumint ‘facilitating ” a recap of SCF.

This will allow FIGJAM to save face and possible legal action by AH in return for AH seeing he beloved SCF survive under the safe hands of Sandy Maier.

Sandy will have a recap company able to be traded back to good health and the Govt guarantee wont have to be called on.

Nice and tidy.
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August 18, 2010 5:21pm
krazykiwi

Winston – WHERE IS THE $158,000 YOU STOLE FROM US?
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August 18, 2010 6:32pm
reid

“But hey, only horrible, racist Amurkkkans (70% of them including Harry Reid) could possibly be opposed to it.”

To me Hurf the issues not where I lie on it but what others are doing with it. It’s an interesting test dynamic for the social engineers amongst us.
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August 18, 2010 6:59pm
reid

In my opinion, it is abundantly clear to all but the deliberately blind that the Hanover loans book which was at the centre of last December’s so-called rescue effort was hopelessly overvalued. Allied Farmers’ share price has since fallen through the floor. Commentators – including myself in last Wednesday’s column – have variously called for Allied Farmers to be put into statutory management, or into receivership.

Another excellent article from Fran.

But the dividends the directors approved in those last perilous months are said to have never left the business – they were paid on condition the money was used to reduce the related-party loans (to outfits associated with Hotchin and Watson) that riddled the company’s books and made Hanover unpalatable to the corporate lenders it was trying to woo…In my view, New Zealand investors are entitled to clear answers from the former chairmen of Hanover Finance, its former directors and shareholders on such issues.

We certainly are. Simon, how about getting into fucking gear, right now. This demands answers. Has for some time.
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August 18, 2010 7:29pm
Tauhei Notts

On Betfair the Aussie red head has shortened to $1.34 and Abbot has moved out to $3.85.
Why don’t the mainstream media mention these facts.
According to the market Gillard will shit in.
But on the radio various pundits, with not one dollar at risk, rave about how close it will be.
Bullshit baffles brains.
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August 18, 2010 8:09pm
Hurf Durf

Alas, Gizzard will probably call it in, then do an immediate about-turn and slap a carbon tax on those poor “fair dinkum” Aussie families. Would have preferred a Rudd vs Abbott showdown but we can’t have it all – and besides, we might to see the whole thing happen again in mid-2013 when her approval ratings suddenly shit the bed.

What’s with all these fucking old Labour and young Gween plants in this Town Hall I’m watching?
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August 18, 2010 8:22pm
Rex Widerstrom

Winston to stand against Key in Helensville.

So there’ll be no chance of a National/NZF coalition government I’d imagine. Time for Key to pretend he’s rediscovered his pre-election principles and start emphasising that a vote for NZF is a vote for Labour. And vice versa .
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August 18, 2010 8:32pm
krazykiwi

what Rex just said
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August 18, 2010 8:43pm
Manolo

A match made in hell: the venal pensioner Winston Peters challenging the flaccid liar Neville Key.
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August 18, 2010 9:59pm

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Dan Moskovitz

editor@kiwiblog.co.nz

PO Box 12270, Thorndon, Wellington 6144

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