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August 12, 2010 7:42am by David Farrar

General Debate 12 August 2010

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General Debate

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tom hunter

With regard to the ROE in Afghanistan it’s probably par for the course with most Western armies nowadays in most such situations and it is crap and it does result in failure.

Read Hanson’s book Carnage and Culture: one of the distinguishing characteristics of Western societies has been that they do not fight “symbolic” wars, that is wars where the fighting stops when the enemy’s “flag” is captured. The West has fought until its enemies were completely crushed. So no IED’s or stray shootings of Allied soliders in the remnants of Germany or Japan (or the Confederate states for that matter).

That did not mean that everybody was killed – it simply meant that the enemy was pursued until they really did stop fighting or died. Eiether way the fighting is truly at an end and a future can be built.

But nowadays that definition of victory is not acceptable in the West – hence the ongoing bleeding in numerous parts of the world – like the NZ soldier’s complaint about being unable to pursue the bastard Taliban across the border. Moreover it’s a common-sense thing – even Obama made reference to just that point during his campaign, although in his case I think he was just talking tough to appeal to Independants and Republicans.

I could accept holding back in the face of potential global nuclear war, but with that threat almost non-existent there just does not seem to be an excuse for this failure to want to win.

Having said that, this article in the Australian paper The Daily Telegraph paints a somewhat different picture than the recent gloomy takes on Afghanistan: Worth the body count

The current fighting season, the worst for Australia and the coalition, advances the proposition that the Taliban is gaining strength.

Australian soldiers have an opposite view. In earlier rotations special forces in particular experienced fighting “swarms” whereby insurgents attacked in numbers.

Now it is rare for the Taliban to assemble squads of fighters and when this occurs they take heavy losses

That last is right in line with one of Hanson’s main points. From a historian’s perspective he does not regard assymetric warfare as anything new nor unbeatable – if one wants to win.
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August 12, 2010 2:36pm
Kris K

malcolm 11:45 am,

Kris, that’s the best idea you’ve had all week.

I’d suggest that two convictions for violence (including burglary) gets you an offer of payment to be sterilised. If you have three, then you get an offer you can’t refuse and no payment. Kind of like three-strikes

Gee Malcolm, I thought I’d had at least ONE other better idea this week …

And I noticed you immediately went off topic and didn’t address any of the points in either the article or my comments. I don’t know why you bothered responding at all.
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August 12, 2010 2:39pm
wreck1080

@redbaiter: I was in LA when the Rizzo story broke. It was almost a joke, this area is not rich, but the civic leaders are certainly enriching themselves.

Similar occurs here though, our council CEO (Tauranga, pop 100k) is on over 300k per year. He has now resigned, unfortunately the new CEO will probably get the same. The money these clowns get for administrative jobs is crazy.
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August 12, 2010 2:39pm
Murray

Once upon a time I had the coolest job description on planet earth.” Locate, close with and destroy the enemy.”

Now its “locate, close with, observe… but don’t get too close… and don’t let them see you… if they do see you run away. Oh and try not offend them either… and don’t follow them when they move outside your AO to get away from you… just try not to upset anyone ok?”

Thats not going to make the top ten coolest job descriptions now is it. Its also not a war winning strategy.
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August 12, 2010 2:40pm
tom hunter

…..with your posts I never know what your position is. I read some of your links, which are interesting but I never know which bits of them you agree/disagree with and what the motive is in you posting them.

It might help if you specifically pointed to some of my posts where you think that’s the case. Over the last few years I think I’ve made it pretty clear to anybody reading where I stand on any number of things: the Gulf War (I and II), 9/11, economics, government, AGW, US Foreign policy in general and in history, healthcare, Islamism, NASA and most else that I’m interested in. I’ve made it clear on any number of occasions that I’m a right-wing conservative, although in my case I prefer the label “Classical Liberal”, if labels have to be applied.

Also, with regard to links, it might take a bloody long post to identify some, or even all of the things I agree/disagree with on a given link – and I’m certainly not going to bust my gut if nobody else is reacting to the link. I shrug my shoulders and move on. For future reference, if I do post a link you can bet that I agree with 50%+ at a minimum, and probably a lot more.

I admit that I don’t tend to statements like, Leftists – kill ’em all, if that’s what you’re looking for?

Since we have to start somewhere how about you take a look at my previous post on this thread and get stuck in. But bear in mind that I now have to focus back on getting a project across the line.
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August 12, 2010 2:48pm
Redbaiter

“It’s not just a few rightie victims that grizzle about it.”

Come off it. The mainstream media is held in wider contempt every day by more people every day, and as usual, you try to attack this reality with lies because 1) it confronts your leftist propaganda strategy and 2) you don’t ever have anything but lies.

The only idiots who “grizzle” that the media are right wing are uninformed extreme lefists like you Pete George, who are only annoyed that the left wing media are not far left enough. Like the idiots who would rather Kucinich was President than Obama, to coin a recently used phrase.
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August 12, 2010 2:49pm
jinpy

Kris,
u haven’t addressed any of my questions I notice>
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August 12, 2010 2:51pm
Redbaiter

“The money these clowns get for administrative jobs is crazy.”

We just have to stop voting for politicians (local and central) who support the status quo Wreck. The only answer. We are voting ourselves into tyranny and penury by supporting the same old same old.
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August 12, 2010 2:51pm
Pete George

“The mainstream media is held in wider contempt every day by more people every day,” – yes
“you try to attack this reality with lies” – no, I agree with it, so the rest of your diatribe is nonsense.

I didn’t say anything about the media being too right or left, just too hopeless. Journalistic standards keep deteriorating for everyone. A few galant righties are not on their own in their frustration and annoyance. You are not the Lone Ranger.
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August 12, 2010 2:57pm
Redbaiter

“You are not the Lone Ranger.”

Ooops, bad tactical mistake there PG. Keeping that for future use.
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August 12, 2010 2:59pm
Kris K

jinpy 12:02 pm,

Kris,
If you ‘breed out’ these people on the bottom will society be a utopia? Where do you draw the line? Some drug addicts go on to lead normal productive lives — is it fair to limit their rights because of the statistical likelihood that many will abuse children in some form? Do only drug addicts abuse their children? Should all people who abuse children be sterilised? what level of abuse will mean sterilization? Can drug addicts be rehabilitated or are they fucked for life?

I don’t think the object was to ” ‘breed out’ these people”. In fact the article stipulates that if the drug addict gets back on track then, essentially, mission accomplished. The trouble is what if it takes, say, ten years to get on track; and if for each of those ten years a child is conceived – ie ten unwanted and likely unloved and unwell children.

From the article:

D’Adria Bond, 36, has no regrets – so far. She had tubal ligation a couple of weeks ago after giving birth to a baby girl, Miracle, in a Virginia drug treatment centre. She’s been pregnant 11 times by 10 different men, resulting in one miscarriage, four abortions and six children. The only child she has custody of is Miracle. Bond had been using crack and alcohol since 1996, but got clean in January, when she was four months pregnant. “I was spending anywhere from $400 to $500 a week on drugs, and I was stealing to support my addiction,” she says. “I came to this drug treatment programme from jail.”

Pretty damning – “She’s been pregnant 11 times by 10 different men, resulting in one miscarriage, four abortions and six children”. This is the reality; many of these women will ABORT at least some of those children. Is it better to prevent them conceiving in the first place, or to allow them to have multiple conceptions, to multiple fathers, some of which will result in abortion?

In my book, contraception and/or sterilisation is NOT murder, whereas abortion IS.

And just for the record, I am against BOTH abortion and eugenics, but this is something different. Encouraging people (drug addicts) to take responsibility for their fertility is both fair and reasonable. To not do so is indeed “child abuse” at best, and will result in abortion in a worst case.
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August 12, 2010 3:02pm
Pete George

I agree with you here Kris. It’s far better to prevent pregnancies and abortions when they are into drugs, and IF they recover they have a much better chance of doing a decent job of having kids if they wish.

Oops RB, you smother yourself with tactics (especially diversionary), try just using some common sense every now and again.
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August 12, 2010 3:08pm
jinpy

Tom,
Yes well it may be that I haven’t paid enough attention over time to pick out the fuller details of your viewpoint. I also find that I don’t always know some of the terminology you’re familiar with, ROEs, asymmetric warfare, etc. Also fair enough, an article is information and doesn’t have to be used as a prop in a specific argument.
The iran nuclear question was an interesting article I thought — it was perhaps uncontroversial and seemd to convey a range of opinions. I guess my queries were, Do you think a nuclear strike is likely? Is Iran the enemy bent on Israel’s destruction, as suggested by many in the article? And are all Israel’s actions justified because of imminent danger, or is some criticism of particular issues such as continued settlement of disputed territories justified even if from the distant media? In one sense, it almost seems the Palestian question is peripheral to Israel’s ultimate security and that even if they are the model of reconciliation and peace-making they will always have this enemy–is this your view? Is Iran’s position towards Israel really as straightforward as the rhetoric of Ahmadinejad?
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August 12, 2010 3:11pm
Bevan

Ooops, bad tactical mistake there PG. Keeping that for future use.

What??? Are you saying that you ARE the Lone Ranger?

Someone call a Dr, we’ve got another for the loony bin!
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August 12, 2010 3:17pm
tom hunter

Fair enough jinpy – but I have to finish up here and take care of home before I can sit down to such questions.

Interesting article? Yes, bloody frightening actually.
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August 12, 2010 3:17pm
nickb

An update on story earlier today:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10665579

Good fucking riddance.

She said she was now more determined than ever to make sure the sandcastle competition went ahead in Christchurch and that it would be a success.

“I never thought there would be such a reaction to something that I thought was so positive. I believe I have done the right thing. I believe that this is absolutely going to benefit my community.”

Wait a sec… I thought rates were meant to be for drains and parks? Silly me
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August 12, 2010 3:19pm
cha

Afghan private security contractors in action, ‘spray n pray’, a threat to everyone, their own blokes at 00.42, but the enemy.
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August 12, 2010 3:23pm
jinpy

Kris K,
With an extreme case like that — it is hard to argue against at least the strong suggestion of voluntary sterilization or long-term contraception. But I think you have to be specific about the cases you are referring to — the article, while quoting some examples, didn’t seem that specific and just used the label ‘drug addict’. And it’s not just drug addicts that abuse their children, although frequently alcohol at least must be a standard aspect. I just want to be clear what you consider the target for this to be, and from that point it would be clearer to argue the morality.

Your motive is not a eugenics one based on removing the genes of a certain group, but there are some ethical questions. For example, around the world people of minority groups are more likely to be represented in the pool of drug addicts for sterilisation and in that case are you inadvertently advocating eugenics?

My answer is the lefty liberal nonsense — can’t we educate these people, and help those on this level to elevate themselves? Also, why not advise a long-term contraceptive rather than a tubal ligation? What is your position on advocating contraception throughout schooling?
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August 12, 2010 3:27pm
Lucia Maria

Redbaiter,

Great list at 2:02pm.

I had no idea Mike Moore was a Catholic, haven’t heard of Nos 2-4, and Pelosi… not surprised she is no 1!
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August 12, 2010 3:28pm
david

re sterilisation, two thoughts:
It should be for both transmitters and receivers
The justification can be the same one used by the dumbasses who punctured the satellite dome in Marlborough or that used by demented ones who physically attack abortion doctors – For the greater good and to prevent suffering . We are continually told by Keith Locke that we need a fence at the top of the cliff rather than an ambulance at the bottom. Well here is a fence!
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August 12, 2010 3:28pm
axeman

The UK Tories are putting the boot into Labour saying the Labour Party are in complete denial about their legacy of waste and reckless spending.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvG6IwLM4SQ
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August 12, 2010 3:38pm
Kris K

Rex Widerstrom 1:38 pm,

“Is it appropriate that long-term drug addicted (primarily) women are offered long term contraception and/or sterilisation to prevent them having numerous children?”

As someone who works amongst the after-effects of drug addiction as it hits the criminal justice sector, and is sometimes passing through a prison entrance as young children are led out sobbing for their incarcerated mother after a visit, I’d say yes… but with several provisos.

First, the operative word is choice.

Second, not non-reversible sterilisation. Drug addicts can and do turn their lives around.

Third, incentives, if paid, need to therefore be linked to ongoing childlessness – a kind of “reverse baby bonus for drug addicts”.

I agree with your three provisos.

Many addicts know they’re not fit to care for their children and entrust them to the care of family members. I think if they were offered the option of ensuring they did not have children whilst addicted many would take it up.

And that is a very good point – “ensuring they did not have children whilst addicted”
I felt this was the main thrust of the people behind the article. You certainly can’t parent while a hard drug addict who is still using IMHO.

While Lucia Maria suggests:

Just jail all drug users – that way they can’t have sex and make more babies.

Ahhh, I just love to bask in the warm glow of Christian compassion sometimes.

Except that attitude isn’t Christian at all, of course. What do you think Jesus would do if confronted with an addict? Blow his little whistle and call for the Centurions? Love thy neighbour… unless [insert long list of bigoted prejudices here] wasn’t the message. Or did the end bit get left off in translation?

With Lucia Maria I’m never sure whether it “Christian compassion” or ‘Roman Catholic compassion’ which motivates her? Especially in light of the RC church’s view on contraception and sterilisation.

As I said earlier to Jinpy (3:02 pm):
In my book, contraception and/or sterilisation is NOT murder, whereas abortion IS.

And just for the record, I am against BOTH abortion and eugenics, but this is something different. Encouraging people (drug addicts) to take responsibility for their fertility is both fair and reasonable. To not do so is indeed “child abuse” at best, and will result in abortion in a worst case.

My personal belief is that if Christ were confronted with a female drug addict He would strongly DISCOURAGE her from having children until she sorted her life out (not to mention get married, etc). In fact Christ would likely render her sterile (supernaturally) UNTIL she was back on track.
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August 12, 2010 3:40pm
Pete George

I had no idea Mike Moore was a Catholic, haven’t heard of Nos 2-4, and Pelosi… not surprised she is no 1!

Can’t have Catholics thinking for themselves and voting the way they want. Herd them back to the right flock!

Thankfully here religion is mostly kept at a healthy distance from politics. I suppose a few priests and pastors try and tell their sheep how they should vote, but the high level attempts at coercion are mostly absent.

In fact Christ would likely render her sterile (supernaturally) UNTIL she was back on track.

Kris, your post was going really well until this clanger at the end.
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August 12, 2010 3:46pm
Lucia Maria

Rex at 2:32pm,

Addiction itself is not a crime and it requires medical intervention not punishment. And second, if you want free access to cheap drugs, get yourself locked up in most of our prisons.

Aren’t most of the drugs that cause the problems illegal? (ie not including alcohol here) So while the addiction itself is not a crime, surely the feeding of that addiction is. The problem of drug use in prisons is a totally separate one. That’s likely more reflective of the lax attitude we have to drugs in society, for a closed environment such as a prison it should be dead easy to prevent drugs from getting in.

I also agree compassion doesn’t equal bleeding heart tolerance. For instance I’m all for offering any addict arrested for a drug-related crime that doesn’t involve bodily harm to another person the choice of an indefinite stay in a comfortable rehabilitation facility until such time as they beat their addiction or time in jail.

But, I do actually agree that prison is not a good place for addicts that have committed no other crime. So I agree with your rehab facility idea.

But I’d definitely be interested in hearing how your “lock ‘em all up” solution (for the simple fact of addiction and not for any crime) equates with a whole raft of Christian principles, including “judge not lest ye be judged”.

That “judge not lest ye be judged” applies to judging the state of a person’s soul. It doesn’t prevent us from locking people up to stop them from further harming themselves and bringing innocent life into the picture. By doing nothing, just offering sterilisation, you give the person society’s implicit permission to go out there to keep doing what they are doing. That is far more harmful than just locking them up for a time.
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August 12, 2010 3:49pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 3:08 pm,

I agree with you here Kris. It’s far better to prevent pregnancies and abortions when they are into drugs, and IF they recover they have a much better chance of doing a decent job of having kids if they wish.

We agree on something, Pete – and you were succinct and to the point. My faith has been restored. 😉
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August 12, 2010 3:54pm
Lucia Maria

Kris at 2:34pm,

Did you actually read the whole article, Lucia, or are you just against sterilisation (and perhaps contraception) because the RC church tells you it’s wrong? Or is it ONLY when it’s ‘incentivised’? What if having multiple kids, which you can’t care for, and who will have major health issues, etc. is not disincentive enough?

The group in the article actually put forward the options of BOTH contraception and sterilisation as CHOICES. And exactly WHY is sterilisation “a totally evil idea”? Are you ALSO against married men getting a vasectomy, or women getting their tubes tied, when they decide they have had enough children? If so, why?

Well, you got me there, Kris. I did not read the whole article and I am against sterilisation, and I’ve been against sterilisation for a very long time. As a Pole, I have been very interested in the history of Nazism and the aberrant ideas it espoused. Though they just didn’t sterilise the unfit – they killed them. But sterilisation as a means to prevent the unfit from breeding was around in the States before WW2. It’s eugenics, dressed up with false compassion, nothing more.

Abortion is sold as a “choice” as well. I don’t hold much stock in “choices”, as live organ donation could be dressed up as a choice as well. Sell your kidney for $10,000 – do we really want poor people being given that choice?

I think it would be difficult for me to explain why sterilisation is an evil idea without explaining why contraception of all types (tubes tied, vasectomies, the pill, etc ..) are all wrong. This article explains the position really well and it was also the last piece of writing that convinced me almost 4 years ago that if the Catholic Church did not have the Truth, no one did: Contraception: Why Not?

LOL about being surprised. That’s a good thing.
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August 12, 2010 4:14pm
Kris K

jinpy 3:27 pm,

Kris K,
With an extreme case like that — it is hard to argue against at least the strong suggestion of voluntary sterilization or long-term contraception. But I think you have to be specific about the cases you are referring to — the article, while quoting some examples, didn’t seem that specific and just used the label ‘drug addict’. And it’s not just drug addicts that abuse their children, although frequently alcohol at least must be a standard aspect. I just want to be clear what you consider the target for this to be, and from that point it would be clearer to argue the morality.

I got the impression the article was referring to long term hard drug users – not someone who has the ocassional joint, or even was addicted to cannibas, necessarily. And I felt the “abuse” was more along the lines of being unable to care for and provide the necessities of life (plus the medical complications of being an addict’s child), rather than one of beating the children. My “target” group would be the hard core hard drug user and addict – especially when ‘education’, etc had failed.

Your motive is not a eugenics one based on removing the genes of a certain group, but there are some ethical questions. For example, around the world people of minority groups are more likely to be represented in the pool of drug addicts for sterilisation and in that case are you inadvertently advocating eugenics?

I know what you mean, but I don’t know how you get around that one. I guess my personal preference would be “long term contraception” (perhaps sub-dermal or injection), rather than permanent sterilisation. But perhaps in extreme cases (like the women I cited earlier who had had 12 kids) sterilisation would be more appropriate.

My answer is the lefty liberal nonsense — can’t we educate these people, and help those on this level to elevate themselves? Also, why not advise a long-term contraceptive rather than a tubal ligation? What is your position on advocating contraception throughout schooling?

I don’t think education works without establishing a firm moral foundation beforehand. Much like those who get into drugs in the first place; it’s not lack of education, but rather them not having a moral foundation where they know drugs to be wrong – and hence they see nothing wrong with starting up with the habit.

Similar rational as to why sex education in schools doesn’t really impact positively on teenage promiscuity – in fact it appears to have exactly the opposite effect; increased promiscuity.
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August 12, 2010 4:19pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 3:46 pm,

“In fact Christ would likely render her sterile (supernaturally) UNTIL she was back on track.”

Kris, your post was going really well until this clanger at the end.

Purely my opinion, Pete – I don’t presume to talk for God.
But let me just say that God, in the Old Testament, both blessed with, and withheld, the ability to conceive for various reasons – so let’s not rule it out as a possibility.
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August 12, 2010 4:29pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria 4:14 pm,

Well, you got me there, Kris. I did not read the whole article and I am against sterilisation, and I’ve been against sterilisation for a very long time. As a Pole, I have been very interested in the history of Nazism and the aberrant ideas it espoused. Though they just didn’t sterilise the unfit – they killed them. But sterilisation as a means to prevent the unfit from breeding was around in the States before WW2. It’s eugenics, dressed up with false compassion, nothing more.

I know what you mean – I’m (obviously) against eugenics – and that Sanger was a nasty Godless piece of work.

But where do you stand on the following if it came down to a choice:

D’Adria Bond, 36, has no regrets – so far. She had tubal ligation a couple of weeks ago after giving birth to a baby girl, Miracle, in a Virginia drug treatment centre. She’s been pregnant 11 times by 10 different men, resulting in one miscarriage, four abortions and six children. The only child she has custody of is Miracle. Bond had been using crack and alcohol since 1996, but got clean in January, when she was four months pregnant. “I was spending anywhere from $400 to $500 a week on drugs, and I was stealing to support my addiction,” she says. “I came to this drug treatment programme from jail.”

Pretty damning – “She’s been pregnant 11 times by 10 different men, resulting in one miscarriage, four abortions and six children”. This is the reality; many of these women will ABORT at least some of those children. Is it better to prevent them conceiving in the first place, or to allow them to have multiple conceptions, to multiple fathers, some of which will result in abortion?

In my book, contraception and/or sterilisation is NOT murder, whereas abortion IS.

Surely preventing conception in such case is BETTER than murdering through abortion after the fact, Lucia?
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August 12, 2010 4:42pm
Pete George

Surely preventing conception in such case is BETTER than murdering through abortion after the fact

I agree with the concept but not entirely with the terminology.

What about an early term abortion for a drug addict in rehab? Then having a baby once they have recovered, much better chance of a healthy cared for baby?

Many early laws and church doctrine focused on “quickening,” when the initial motion of the fetus can be felt by the pregnant woman, as a way to differentiate when an abortion became impermissible.
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August 12, 2010 4:49pm
jinpy

‘…of being unable to care for and provide the necessities of life (plus the medical complications of being an addict’s child).”

Yeah, well it does seem sad that people in that state would continue to bring people into the world. so maybe I agree with part of what you say. I would argue your approach ultimately is ignoring the problem and suggests not being willing to do the hard work of understanding the problem and helping people even if it seems futile. I’m not really talking about the hard-core people described above, who almost must be judged mentally impaired, but people on the poverty line, born into such abuse who continue to perpetuate it but have the possibility for redemption.

Off topic really, but the broader ‘society in decline’ thing, promiscuity, pornography, decline in values, I think is overstated. I do agree that there seem to be some growing issues in modern life (such as internet pornography) but I think these are around increased availability and loss of community and identity in a complex world rather than a particular moral decline, although we may agree on some aspects.
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August 12, 2010 4:58pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 4:49 pm,

Surely preventing conception in such case[s] is BETTER than murdering through abortion after the fact

I agree with the concept but not entirely with the terminology.

I didn’t really want to get into the whole abortion debate, Pete.
The question is really directed to Lucia, who, like myself, believes life begins at conception, and who I’m also pretty sure believes, like me, that all abortion is wrong.
And on THAT basis preventing conception must be the lesser ‘evil’ than abortion/murder.
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August 12, 2010 5:02pm
Kris K

jinpy 4:58 pm,

I’m all for redemption when it’s a possibility. Sometimes, though, perhaps external influences need to encourage the prevention of the self destructive downward spiral of which children seem to be the greatest victims?

But I think we essentially understand each others POV – thanks for the discussion.
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August 12, 2010 5:12pm
Lucia Maria

Kris at 4:42 pm

The woman is clean now, so what exactly is the argument? That she should have been sterilised from the beginning?

When it comes to the existence of children on one side and the “it would have been better if they were never born” argument, I’ll come down on the side of life every time.

However, having that many children to that many men is of course a terrible thing when I look it at from the ideal.
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August 12, 2010 5:28pm
Rex Widerstrom

Lucia Maria:

So while the addiction itself is not a crime, surely the feeding of that addiction is.

Yes, and so it should be. But not all pushers / manufacturers are addicts (and indeed the worst ones usually aren’t, though they might be occasional users) and very few addicts are significant retailers of drugs since they simply can’t get themselves together sufficiently.

They might sell a bit here and there but the people we really need to get are full time manufacturers and dealers. That’s what I support legalising the possession and use of all drugs and making them available free from chemists (as methadone is now) on the condition the addict remains registered with a treatment programme.

Then on the other side of that coin, vastly increasing the penalties for the importation, manufacture and commercial distribution of drugs.

The problem of drug use in prisons is a totally separate one. That’s likely more reflective of the lax attitude we have to drugs in society, for a closed environment such as a prison it should be dead easy to prevent drugs from getting in.

I really must get round to makign a “fly on the wall” documentary on prisons, if only I can find a jurisdiction brave enough to let me. Drugs are brought in concealed within all sorts of body cavities, hidden in babies’ nappies, in sealed plastic pouches dropped into bottles of baby formula, thrown over fences, hidden in visit centres and collected later by the prisoner cleaners and a raft of other methods. Anecdotally I’d say the bulk of it is brought in by a handful of corrupt officers.

By doing nothing, just offering sterilisation, you give the person society’s implicit permission to go out there to keep doing what they are doing. That is far more harmful than just locking them up for a time.

I agree with the first part of that. But locking them up won’t “fix” them either. I think Kris’s formula (with incentives for rehabilitation as well) is a very practical, compassionate but sensible formula.

I know it’s impossible for a Catholic to accept contraception in any situation, even if to prevent the bringing into the world of a child whose mother is clearly incapable of raising it, and it offends my own sense of compassion. But I also know I have no hope of changing your mind. That’s why “dogma” is the etymological root of “dogmatic” 🙁
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August 12, 2010 5:39pm
mattyroo

What a surprise – A red MP proposing a solution to a problem that neither exists, or he understands:

THE Petroleum Exploration and Production Association of New Zealand has slammed an opposition politician’s bill to make failsafe preventative devices mandatory on all offshore oil and gas wells as inaccurate and unnecessary.

“This bill only confirms what we already know … there is a complete lack of understanding on the part of the politicians, and the general public, of how oil wells are drilled; all wells, not just offshore,” Pepanz executive officer John Pfahlert said.

Labour’s associate spokesperson for the environment, MP David Shearer, recently moved to have his Continental Shelf (Oil Exploration Safety) Amendment Bill introduced by ballot – “to protect New Zealand’s natural environment by requiring all petroleum extraction facilities on the Continental Shelf to include failsafe prevention devices”.

“This bill seeks to remedy the government’s failure to date to facilitate adequate environmental protection for New Zealand’s EEZ (Exclusive Economic Zone) by imposing a statutory condition on the granting of any permit to explore for, or to extract, petroleum from any area … that failsafe preventative devices be installed,” his proposed legislation says.

He said recent major leaks – in the Gulf of Mexico, the Timor Sea, and the Niger Delta – from offshore oil exploration operations have prompted major concerns about the safety of such projects though he conceded the government’s “overdue work” on updating the regulatory safety regime applicable to oil exploration in the EEZ was a step in the right direction.

However, he added that more needed to be done to protect the environment.

Pepanz rubbished Shearer’s comments, saying that a blowout preventer was the “failsafe prevention mechanism” that the Crown Minerals Act already required all wells to have in place while drilling, and that “all companies would require they be there even if it wasn’t in the act”.

“The industry is not aware of any other piece of equipment that can do the job differently or better. If there was, we would be using it already.”

Pfahlert said that one of the big issues regarding the BP Gulf of Mexico incident was to find out why BP could not close the BOP remotely or even manually.

“This goes directly to there having been an equipment failure which, once the investigation is completed, will most likely be determined to be due to some level of human error … anything from a serious failure of the drilling contractor to properly maintain the equipment to one of the rig workers accidentally crimping a control line or forgetting to screw something together tight enough.

“No amount of legislation or failsafe prevention mechanisms can prevent human errors from occurring.”

He said the key for the oil industry was to find out why the proper equipment failed and what other decisions were made that led to that equipment being used in the first place – “so we can put the proper management and oversight systems in place to prevent any similar incident from occurring again”.

Pfahlert told PetroleumNews.net yesterday that he was scheduled to meet Shearer next week – to explain the errors in his proposed bill and to highlight the fact that the oil industry already took all reasonable steps to ensure the safe operation of all drilling and production activities.

Further to this, why has the Obummer administration been so quiet on the Transocean disaster in the GoM, now that the leak has stopped? It wouldn’t be because Tony Hayward was right, and the leaking oil was a tiny amount, into a huge ocean? – Oil which has now all but disappeared.
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August 12, 2010 5:41pm
Pete George

I know it’s impossible for a Catholic to accept contraception in any situation

How come the birth rate in Italy is so low?

I think you’ll find that some Catholics are vocal about their ideals, but most practice pragmatism.
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August 12, 2010 6:04pm
Lucia Maria

Yeah, I’m the scary kind of Catholic. Most Catholics are in a pretty sad state in Europe and in the US.

There was a world-wide revolt to Humanae Vitae, where the Pope came down against contraception in the 60s, when just about everyone expected him to do the opposite.
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August 12, 2010 6:10pm
dad4justice

Is suicide the painless option for living in the cess pit New Zealand?
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August 12, 2010 7:03pm
Rex Widerstrom

d4j: You’re not seriously considering that, are you?
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August 12, 2010 7:10pm
krazykiwi

Rex, you’re a naughty naughty boy. Behave!

And in other news: Move over Greenwich!
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August 12, 2010 7:12pm
dad4justice

No Rex not thinking about it, not like 10 kiwi’s who take the suicide is painless option in the land of milk and honey every fucking week. What a disgusting country that is lost for answers. Our media and politicians are weak wimps.
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August 12, 2010 7:14pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria 5:28 pm,

The woman is clean now, so what exactly is the argument? That she should have been sterilised from the beginning?

Are you ignoring the fact that she ALSO had four abortions PRIOR to getting clean? And that if she had been sterilised, or used contraceptives, those same four children would never have been aborted? That is EXACTLY my argument.

When it comes to the existence of children on one side and the “it would have been better if they were never born” argument, I’ll come down on the side of life every time.

Once again, Lucia, children DON’T exist prior to conception. They have to be conceived BEFORE they can be born – this is pretty basic biology, even for a Roman Catholic. And then you have the audacity to imply that I am somehow NOT “on the side of life” – unbelievable!

I really struggle with the, as Rex said, dogmatic position of Roman Catholics in this regard. They won’t permit contraceptives or sterilisation EVEN IF by not doing so will result in ABORTIONS. You’ve as much as admitted that, Lucia Maria – and I’m appalled. Like Rex, this offends my own sense of compassion – and I say that as a Bible believing Christian. I also believe this hypocracy offends the God of the scriptures!
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August 12, 2010 7:15pm
Hurf Durf

Joke time!

How do you make a Prog useful?

Kill his gag reflex.

Two Progs are on a nature walk. They come across a pair of tracks. Prog 1 says they are rabbit tracks. Prog 2 says they are deer tracks. They were still arguing about it when the train hit them.

Prog 1 meets his friend Prog 2 down the vegan restaurant. Prog 1 says to Prog 2, “Hey! I was walking past your house last night and your curtains were open. I could see you shagging your equalitarian life partner!” Prog 2 laughs. “Hah! The joke’s on you! I wasn’t even home last night!”
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August 12, 2010 7:43pm
Steve

While you are there …

A man walks into a drug store with his 8-year old son.
They happen to walk by the condom
display, and the boy asks, “What are these,Dad?”
To which the man matter-of-factly replies, “Those are called condoms,
son… Men use them to have safe sex.”
“Oh, I see,” replied the boy pensively.
“Yes, I’ve heard of that in health class at school.”
He looks over the display and picks up a package of 3 and asks, “Why are
there 3 in this package?”
The dad replies, “Those are for high school boys. One for Friday, one
for Saturday, and one for Sunday.”
“Cool” says the boy. He notices a 6 pack and asks, “Then who are these
for?”
“Those are for college men.” The dad answers.
“Two for Friday, two for Saturday, and two for Sunday.”
“WOW!” exclaimed the boy, “then who uses THESE?” he asks, picking up a
12
pack.
With a sigh, the dad replied “Those are for married men.
One for January, one for February, one for March ……………………
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August 12, 2010 7:55pm
Lucia Maria

Kris at 7:15pm

Are you ignoring the fact that she ALSO had four abortions PRIOR to getting clean? And that if she had been sterilised, or used contraceptives, those same four children would never have been aborted? That is EXACTLY my argument.

I needed to understand what you were saying. The argument could also be made that if she were killed after her first child (not advocating this), then all the other children would not have come along. I say this because I believe that contraception is a terrible moral evil, and just to make the point.

Once again, Lucia, children DON’T exist prior to conception. They have to be conceived BEFORE they can be born – this is pretty basic biology, even for a Roman Catholic. And then you have the audacity to imply that I am somehow NOT “on the side of life” – unbelievable!

Yes I know that. But these children already exist. All this has already happened. You gave me this story and wanted to know what I thought. I had to understand at what point in time in the story did you want my opinion.

I really struggle with the, as Rex said, dogmatic position of Roman Catholics in this regard. They won’t permit contraceptives or sterilisation EVEN IF by not doing so will result in ABORTIONS.

Here’s the thing with a society that contracepts. There are always abortions. A society that contracepts needs a final solution for when contraception fails – because it does. Any one that uses contraception is not expecting it to fail, they are not expecting a child and they need a means to deal with that child should they come along. And they always do. You just have to watch the news stories. For instance, in the last couple of years an Aussie study found that 43% of women having abortions were doing so because of pill failure.

That’s why we are so dogmatic on this point. All this stuff is in the article I linked to a few comments back on contraception. It always leads to greater (and unexpected) evils, and therefore it should be opposed.

You’ve as much as admitted that, Lucia Maria – and I’m appalled. Like Rex, this offends my own sense of compassion – and I say that as a Bible believing Christian. I also believe this hypocracy offends the God of the scriptures!

Kris, you really need to educate yourself more in this regard. You’re just a babe in the woods here, getting offended at what the adults are dealing with.
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August 12, 2010 8:20pm
Rex Widerstrom

I’m not sure about the above “Progressive” joke, as Red calls me a “progressive” from time to time. I’m sure he doesn’t think I’m Jim Anderton (and he’s the only capital-P Progressive left) and since I hold a mix of views on different topics across the political spectrum it obviusly doesn’t mean “socialist”… anyway, I’ve decided it’s the opposite of “regressive” so I’ll take it as a compliment 😀 …

To redress the balance, here’s the second best political joke I know (the best one’s called “Winston” 😉 )

A primary teacher explained to her class that she is a proud Labour supporter. She asks her students to raise their hands if they were Labour supporters, too. Not really knowing what a Labour supporter was, but wanting to be like their teacher, their hands flew up into the air.

There was one exception. A girl named Lucy had not gone along with the crowd. The teacher asks her why she has decided to be different. “Because Im not a Labour supporter.”

“Then,” asks the teacher, “What are you?” “Why Im a libertarian,” boasts the little girl. The teacher, a little perturbed and her face slightly red, asked Lucy why she is a libertarian. “Well, I was brought up to trust in myself instead of relying on an intrusive government to care for me and do all of my thinking. My dad and mum are libertarians, and I am a libertarian too.”

The teacher, now angry, loudly says, “Thats no reason! What if your mum was a moron, and your dad was a moron? What would you be then?” The teacher paused and smiled. “Then,” Lucy said, “Id be a Labour supporter.”

😀
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August 12, 2010 8:24pm
nickb

D4J I would say that people who commit suicide are weak wimps.
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August 12, 2010 8:26pm
Lucia Maria

Rex at 5:39pm

That’s what I support legalising the possession and use of all drugs and making them available free from chemists (as methadone is now) on the condition the addict remains registered with a treatment programme.

Then on the other side of that coin, vastly increasing the penalties for the importation, manufacture and commercial distribution of drugs.

I don’t think that is a morally defensible position. That sends a very mixed message on the morality and the harm potential of drugs. People think if it’s legal, it must be ok. And that punishing the suppliers is more a government control thing than anything else. And eventually it will go the way of Prostitution reform where it was all legalised rather than only having one end illegal.

I really must get round to makign a “fly on the wall” documentary on prisons, if only I can find a jurisdiction brave enough to let me. Drugs are brought in concealed within all sorts of body cavities, hidden in babies’ nappies, in sealed plastic pouches dropped into bottles of baby formula, thrown over fences, hidden in visit centres and collected later by the prisoner cleaners and a raft of other methods. Anecdotally I’d say the bulk of it is brought in by a handful of corrupt officers.

It would be a great idea to do that. Highlight the drug problems in prison. I’m guessing there’s also no real political will to clean up the prisons because the population at large doesn’t care if prisoners are wrecking their bodies and minds with drugs.

I know it’s impossible for a Catholic to accept contraception in any situation, even if to prevent the bringing into the world of a child whose mother is clearly incapable of raising it, and it offends my own sense of compassion. But I also know I have no hope of changing your mind. That’s why “dogma” is the etymological root of “dogmatic” 🙁

Dogma is also a means of transmitting absolute truth. And once you start looking at the reasons behind the dogma, you might find yourself pleasantly surprised.
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August 12, 2010 8:31pm
Lucia Maria

A father who is very much concerned about his son’s bad grades in math decides to register him at a catholic school. After his first term there, the son brings home his report card: He’s getting “A”s in math.

The father is, of course, pleased, but wants to know: “Why are your math grades suddenly so good?”

“You know”, the son explains, “when I walked into the classroom the first day, and I saw that guy on the wall nailed to a plus sign, I knew one thing: This place means business!”
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August 12, 2010 8:33pm
Rex Widerstrom

Lucia Maria:

For instance, in the last couple of years an Aussie study found that 43% of women having abortions were doing so because of pill failure.

Unfortunately that statistic doesn’t do much to advance the argument one way or the other. If one considers the number of women that percentage represents then it must be cmpared to the number of women who took the pill and did not fall pregnant multiplied by the number of times they had sex. On that basis the number of women presenting for abortions as a result of pill failure would be infinitessimal.

The best statistic I could find is an old study (1988) which concluded that:

an undesired pregnancy, claimed to be due to “method failure” with oral contraceptive use and resulting in a request for induced abortion, occurs approximately twice per 10,000 woman-years

And don’t forget that with drug addicts (which is where this discussion started) we’d be relying on an injection, under-skin impant or some other form of long-lasting contraception, not relying on them remembering to take the pill, meaning an even higher level of reliability.

I can understand (though not agree with) the Catholic church arguing that a woman in possession of all her faculties should make a choice not to use contraception. But how it can say that a woman not as capable – fertile but mentally subnormal, or a drug addict – should not be permitted to avoid bringing a child into the world for whom she clearly could not care and who (in the case of a drug addict) may be left with the mother and come to harm… that I do not understand. On the scale of evil, that seems to me to far outweigh taking a contraceptive pill.

Incidentally but interesingly, as an aside, that 43% figure is an improvement over previous studies including a 1994 study of Auckland women which indicated that 63% of abortions at a Greenlane clinic were due to pill failure. But, as that study notes, “pill failure” doesn’t mean the pill, taken properly, had failed… the most common cause was women who had subsequently vomited not realising they should take another pill. The study suggested better education on contraception could reduce the numbers, and it seems it has.

LOL @ your joke 😀
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August 12, 2010 8:45pm
Pete George

Great joke Lucia Maria, so far tonight you win.

Contraception often fails through poor application. Natural methods can be quite effective if applied diligently.

But there is only one absolute truth – there are no absolute truths.
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August 12, 2010 8:48pm
dad4justice

nickb, I agree however the point I was trying to highlight was that suicides outnumber road deaths but the deranged Ministry of Health will not support or fund suicide research. The moronic gutless government has blood on its uncaring hands meanwhile the pathetic media say nothing.
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August 12, 2010 8:54pm
Rex Widerstrom

Pete George notes:

Contraception often fails through poor application. Natural methods can be quite effective if applied diligently.

But not all of us have your personality, Pete.

*badum cha!*

😀
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August 12, 2010 8:57pm
Pete George

It was quite a while ago Rex, newly married, but it worked fine, and no side effects.

A bit more sophisticated now: http://www.naturalfertility.co.nz/
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August 12, 2010 9:01pm
Rex Widerstrom

dad4justice says:

suicides outnumber road deaths but the deranged Ministry of Health will not support or fund suicide research.

I agree much more needs to be done to combat suicide. I heard a figure that claimed 5 men a day kill themselves in Australia and of those 3 have had some contact with the Family Court… a statistic I’m sure won’t surprise you.

However the Ministry does fund some suicide research. I was involved in the design and the promotion of a study into youth suicide which was accompanied by practice guidelines which were sent to all GPs to help them identify and treat depressed young people. That was funded by MoH and undertaken by the College of GPs.

But as I said, it’s not enough…

Pete George:

Not heard the one about “What do [insert least liked stereotype here] use as contraception?” “What?” “Their personalities”?

But thanks for the link. If there’s ever any chance I’ll summon the energy to have sex, I’ll look it up 😉
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August 12, 2010 9:01pm
Pete George

Rex, not heard the one about ignoring digs? Another natural method – after being on Kiwiblog for a while. Some of them think any reaction is a weakness to be exploited over and over. It’s simpler to just laugh away from the keyboard. Except for RB, it’s hard not to laugh through fingers at him.

Addressing suicide is tricky. Some guys get badly stuffed around in family and relationship breakups. But some simple don’t know how to deal with a defeat of their power, or mana, or control.
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August 12, 2010 9:12pm
MikeNZ

Rex
If 43% of pill takers had problems what does that say for condoms?
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24329

Maybe this might be one of the reasons we have such high Chlamydia rates, as the condom doesn’t protect women from it.
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August 12, 2010 11:05pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria 8:20 pm,

Kris, you really need to educate yourself more in this regard. You’re just a babe in the woods here, getting offended at what the adults are dealing with.

Don’t beat around the bush, Lucia – what you’re REALLY saying is that I need to embrace and blindly accept Roman Catholic dogma, like you have. If that’s what you mean when you say, “you really need to educate yourself more”, then you can forget it. And yes, Roman Catholic dogma, and those who peddle it, does offend me.

And who exactly are all these “adults” to which you refer? Your implication is that ONLY the Roman Catholic church, (and those deceived by her false and unbiblical doctrines), is the arbiter of spiritual truth – a belief which, in my opinion, will lead those caught up in such a corrupt spiritual system straight to hell. The woman does indeed ride the beast!
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August 13, 2010 10:46am
Viking2

Talking about beleving everything you see and hear. Check this out. Compare the headline to the substance.

House prices plummet

Friday, 13, Aug, 2010 12:29PM

It’s been the worst July in a decade for residential property sales turnover.

Figures just out from the Real Estate Institute show residential property transactions fell from 4,575 in June to 4,411 last month and that makes it the lowest July in 10 years – but it’s still higher than the record low of 3,666 in dwelling sales last January.

The highest number of residential property sales in July was 10,150 in 2003.

http://www.telstraclear.co.nz/news/news-story.cfm?content_id=794164
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August 13, 2010 5:09pm
Viking2

This will delight you Rex.

So Micheal has been jumping the fence in his spare time.

Laws admits ‘relationship’, secret texts
The Dominion Post
Last updated 16:24 13/08/2010

JOHN SELKIRK
MICHAEL LAWS: ‘Unwise’ relationship.

Whanganui Mayor Michael Laws has admitted a secret relationship, with details of ”intimate” texts about to become public.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4022557/Laws-admits-relationship-secret-texts
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August 13, 2010 5:23pm
Viking2

Helen will not be Pleased.
Abbott going to move away from UN.
Now there’s a man with the right idea.

Abbott in favour of shift away from UN
By Greg Ansley
5:30 AM Friday Aug 13, 2010

CANBERRA – A victory for Opposition Leader Tony Abbott in next week’s election could see a shift in the emphasis of Australian foreign policy away from the United Nations and other international institutions, with implications for the Pacific.

While Labor and the Coalition share similar views on most of the nation’s most important relationships, an Abbott Government would move back towards the bilateral focus of former Prime Minister John Howard.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10665721
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August 13, 2010 5:37pm
Viking2

There’s hope for you fella’s yet.

Man, 72, arrested for sex on a beach

* From: NewsCore
* August 13, 2010 1:19AM

A 72-YEAR-old man has been arrested for taking part in a sexual act with a woman on a beach on the Isle of Wight, just off England’s south coast.

Police were called after outraged members of the public witnessed the elderly man, from Derby, central England, and his younger lover in action on a local beach, the Isle of Wight County Press reported.

The amorous pair was arrested on suspicion of being involved in an act of outraging public decency and bailed pending further inquiries.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/man-72-arrested-for-sex-on-a-beach/story-e6frea73-1225904698853
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August 13, 2010 5:54pm
Steve

No GD on Friday August 13th? Wonder why?

Good call DPF not to do this. The post is under GD August 12th but when no General Debate on Friday the thirtenth the same fucking wankers come here on the 12th to push the Religous Bullshit.

Ain’t that right Kris K at 10.46am today and then Lucia Maria? Get yourselves a fucking chatroom and fuck off. General debate is for General Debate, not wanking on about Religion. No wonder readers here get the shits and don’t comment. Like me they read Kiwiblog but do not take part because the fucking Devil Dodgers have hijacked General Debate.

The next full moon is is 11 days you fucking plonkers. So sad when you use Kiwiblog at a pedestal to push your wheelbarrow
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August 13, 2010 7:11pm
Kris K

Steve 7:11 pm,

No GD on Friday August 13th? Wonder why?

Good call DPF not to do this. The post is under GD August 12th but when no General Debate on Friday the thirtenth the same fucking wankers come here on the 12th to push the Religous Bullshit.

Ain’t that right Kris K at 10.46am today …

How is citing an article on the merits of providing contraceptives and/or sterilisation to (female) hard drug users/addicts “Religous Bullshit”?

Once again, Steve, you reveal your comprehension skills are even MORE lacking than those of Mr George – and that’s saying something!

Personally I think you actually dislike anyone who may have a religious outlook on life making comment on ANYTHING here on Kiwiblog. With fascists likes you, who needs enemies?! Crawl back to your hole!
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August 14, 2010 2:05pm

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