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July 26, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 26 July 2010

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Pete George

“We need a united force to dislodge the left. ”

Try uniting with the Muslims, everyone seems to be suggesting they want to defeat the West (that is supposedly overrun and controlled by socialists).
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July 26, 2010 4:28pm
RightNow

Pete – it’s a confusing question. I don’t know the label you’re after, and to be honest I’m not getting exactly what you mean either.

I thought about St Anselm, but I don’t think that’s quite what you’re putting forward. He held that faith precedes reason, but that reason can expand upon faith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Anselm#Writings
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July 26, 2010 4:31pm
Shunda barunda

It’s funny throughout history, the true Christians never seem to have wielded any political power and have only ever been the victims.

That was often the case. There is a line of true Christianity woven through history that most are unaware of, humble people that draw only attention to the gospel and the purposes of Christ tend not to make the headlines. They do things for the betterment of people (like invent the modern education system) and often go completely unrewarded.
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July 26, 2010 4:32pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria [July 25th, 2010 at 10:22 pm],

Kris @ 11:40am,

You’re like the guy that probably said nearly 2,000 years ago “Look, your leader’s just been crucified as a criminal, all his disciples have run away, oh except for the guy that betrayed his master and then killed himself .. it’s over. He never was the Messiah, it was all just a false religion.”

I have to agree that things look bad. However, as Peter said in John 6:68, “Domine, ad quem ibimus? verba vitæ æternæ habes” (“Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”) Likewise, the Lord’s Church gives us the means to eternal life.

There is nowhere else to go, and believe me, I’ve looked.

Oh, don’t worry, LM, I believe Christ was/will be Israel’s Messiah, and that He is my Lord and Saviour – irrespective of which church/denomination I may attend or be a member of.

And Peter got it right when he said,
“Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” [Jn 6:68, 69]
Salvation was and is based PURELY and SOLELY on belief on Christ. No mention of believing in some manmade church here; implied or otherwise! Show me from the Bible where one must believe in ANY church to obtain salvation and eternal life – I DARE YOU.

I’m sorry, LM, but you are deceived – you need to look to the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE for your salvation. The Roman Catholic church will lead you straight to hell. I say this with love, and because I care for your eternal destiny. You must make the decision in THIS life; there are no second chances via (a non-existent) purgatory.
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July 26, 2010 4:34pm
Shunda barunda

Kris, why won’t you tell us what church you belong to? I think due to your frequent commentary here that it is fair enough for everybody to know what flavour you are!!
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July 26, 2010 4:38pm
Redbaiter

“The fact is I’m not Clint and I’m not affiliated to ACT. That you have persisted for months in this delusion shows you mental acuity falls well short of you own fevered beliefs.”

For fuck’s sake, its something you could have corrected in one sentence at any time you useless poseur. Really, if you are not Clint Heine I couldn’t give a fuck what you think either, as the whole point of objecting to your insane obsession has just evaporated. You now exist as just another warped purveyor of anti-Christian hate, a species as common and uninteresting as any garden vegetable.

I apologise sincerely to Clint Heine for the incorrect references.
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July 26, 2010 4:39pm
Redbaiter

“Try uniting with the Muslims, everyone seems to be suggesting they want to defeat the West (that is supposedly overrun and controlled by socialists).”

What I am defending is my liberty. You want to take it from me, and I will fight you or the Muslims or any group that threatens it.
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July 26, 2010 4:42pm
krazykiwi

Agree with Shunda @ 4:32 – “They do things for the betterment of people (like invent the modern education system) and often go completely unrewarded”

Also agree with RightNow 4:13 – “Remembering also that in Charlemagne’s time the church held a lot more political power than in recent history, and many ‘holy’ acts were thinly veiled political acts.”

the West (that is supposedly overrun and controlled by socialists).

Not overrun if we only include the ones that have increasing levels of debt, swelling governemnts and increasingly invasive legislation. Hmmmm on second thoughts …
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July 26, 2010 4:43pm
Pete George

I’m sorry, LM, but you are deceived – you need to look to the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE for your salvation. The Roman Catholic church will lead you straight to hell. I say this with love, and because I care for your eternal destiny. You must make the decision in THIS life; there are no second chances via (a non-existent) purgatory.

That’s the sort of “my way is the only way” arrogance that makes atheism look appealing.

Redbaiter at 4:39 pm – that’s one of the funniest things you’ve posted.
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July 26, 2010 4:43pm
Yvette

Thanks Kris for your response 4:22
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July 26, 2010 4:44pm
Kris K

Pete George 4:12 pm,

On radical Christains:

In one way that sounds more or less like what I meant – a Christian who is staunch in their views but doesn’t come across as Christ-like.

Kris points out a few radical RC ideas (Kris has a few different radical ideas of his own).

No doubt Pete would think the following idividual a “radical Christian”:

Joh 2:13 And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.

So, Pete, was this individual being “Christ-like” when He “made a scourge of small cords, [and] drove them all out of the temple” ?

I take it you know what a scourge is?
No doubt those who made profit in the temple and the moneychangers had a few scars for their troubles.
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July 26, 2010 4:52pm
Yvette

“Transport Minister Steven Joyce has this evening confirmed Cabinet has decided not to lower the limit from 0.08mg/l down to 0.05mg/l.
Cabinet has today also agreed a series of further measures around alcohol-impaired driving. They are:

• A zero drink drive limit for recidivist drink drivers
• A zero drink drive limit for drivers under 20 years of age
• Much tougher penalties for serious offences causing death and drink driving causing death
• And the introduction of alcohol interlocks for repeat drink-drivers.

 Joyce said alcohol was a factor in almost one in three fatal crashes and current policies were not having a big enough impact. Repeat offenders and young offenders were a particular concern.
Further measures agreed by Cabinet will toughen the penalties for the following offences:

• Drink / drug driving causing death
• Dangerous / reckless driving causing death
• Illegal street racing causing death
• Failing to stop after a crash when someone is killed.”

– stuff.co.nz
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July 26, 2010 5:05pm
Kris K

Shunda barunda 4:38 pm,

Kris, why won’t you tell us what church you belong to? I think due to your frequent commentary here that it is fair enough for everybody to know what flavour you are!!

You accuse ‘my church’ of:

[SB 2:20 pm]:
They all sound so evil Kris!!
Do Muslims root little boys up the bum like your church does?

… and then have the audacity to DEMAND I tell you to which church I belong.
How does that work again, Shunda?!
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July 26, 2010 5:09pm
krazykiwi

It’s not enough that governments tax the life out of us. Now the UK one wants to force banks (who look after what the government hasn’t [yet] managed to get their hand on) to lend to businesses they otherwise wouldn’t touch.

Banks told: lend more or lose bonuses

Bankers are to be forced to lend to businesses or risk losing their bonuses under plans to be outlined by Vince Cable, the Business Secretary.

Socialism is very much alive and kicking as the Eurozone heads towards debt-laden meltdown.
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July 26, 2010 5:09pm
krazykiwi

@Kris – it works by turning the other cheek!

@Yvette – Common sense decision IMO.
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July 26, 2010 5:11pm
Shunda barunda

… and then have the audacity to DEMAND I tell you to which church I belong.
How does that work again, Shunda?!

Hiding your light huh?
Quite frankly I think it is a very fair question, it is an opportunity for you to display openness and honesty.
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July 26, 2010 5:15pm
Kris K

Pete George 4:43 pm,

I’m sorry, LM, but you are deceived – you need to look to the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE for your salvation. The Roman Catholic church will lead you straight to hell. I say this with love, and because I care for your eternal destiny. You must make the decision in THIS life; there are no second chances via (a non-existent) purgatory.

That’s the sort of “my way is the only way” arrogance that makes atheism look appealing.

It’s NOT “my way”, Pete, it’s the biblical way!
Show me where what I’ve said is UNBIBLICAL – I dare you!

Or are you really just a gutless wimp like most of us already suspect?!
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July 26, 2010 5:20pm
Yvette

What is a recidivist drink driver?
Drink / driving should simply be a three strikes offence.
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July 26, 2010 5:25pm
Don the Kiwi

Kris K.

For someone who spouts so much invective against the Catholic Church and yet claims to be Christian, I wonder if, when you quote St. Peter that you realsie that he was the first Pope of the Catholic Church, apointed by Jesus.

I suppose you condemn people for having a devotion to Mary, the mother of Jesus, as well. 😉
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July 26, 2010 5:26pm
Kris K

Shunda barunda 5:15 pm,

Hiding your light huh?
Quite frankly I think it is a very fair question, it is an opportunity for you to display openness and honesty.

You make an allegation built on a false premise, and then demand I clarify your false premise!!!
You, sir, are a hypocrite and a liar!

And then you additionally have the gall to IMPLY that I am other than ‘open’ and ‘honest’ – excuse me if I don’t feel like obliging.
Hypocrite!
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July 26, 2010 5:31pm
Yvette

Christ did not appoint Peter as the first Pope – read Matthew 16:18
The Roman Catholic Church make the claim, not scripture.
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July 26, 2010 5:39pm
Scott

Kris K- can’t agree with your attacks on the Catholics. Although I don’t agree with all their traditions eg the beliefs about Mary and worshipping her, I think that calling the Pope the anti Christ is pretty extreme and more than a little unhelpful in this debate.

We are debating with atheists and non believers about Christianity-what is a true Christian-some good questions there.
How about concentrating on that rather than bagging the pope?

For what its worth the previous pope for instance did some good stuff and was a fierce critic of totalitarianism from the right (Nazism which he encountered as a young man in WW2) and from the left (Communism in Poland in which he was as Pope a vital part of the resistance).
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July 26, 2010 5:46pm
Don the Kiwi

Yvette.

Correct Chapter and verse.

so how does….”Your are Peter (Cephas = Rock – Petrus in Latin) and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not prevail against it. I will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven.”

….not appoint Peter with authority to lead Jesus’ church after he has gone?
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July 26, 2010 5:46pm
Lucia Maria

Hi Kris,

I’m touched. Seriously.
I will respond to your 4:34 after 8:30.
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July 26, 2010 5:46pm
Kris K

Don the Kiwi 5:26 pm,

Kris K.

For someone who spouts so much invective against the Catholic Church and yet claims to be Christian, I wonder if, when you quote St. Peter that you realsie that he was the first Pope of the Catholic Church, apointed by Jesus.

I’m well aware of the FALSE claims of the RC church regarding Peter being the so-called foundation of the RC church. When it is in fact Christ who is the foundation of the TRUE church; the body of ALL believers. It was actually WHY I highlighted Peter’s quote in my earlier comment to Lucia Maria. Peter revealed he knew what his salvation was founded upon – it’s a shame most Catholics DO NOT.

I suppose you condemn people for having a devotion to Mary, the mother of Jesus, as well.

When people (Roman Catholics) pray to Mary (not to mention all the other so-called RC saints), it reveals not devotion, but worship. ONLY God is to be worshipped. And ONLY God can hear and answer prayer.
Also, notice how the Bible, after the crucifixion, is essentially SILENT about Mary – seems strange when the RC church places so much emphasis on her that the Bible says basically NOTHING.

These are yet MORE false and non-biblical teachings which come out of Rome.
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July 26, 2010 5:47pm
Don the Kiwi

Scott.

A little correction. Catholics do not worship Mary, we honour her – as her son Jesus does. God is alone the object of worship to all Catholics.

Pax.
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July 26, 2010 5:48pm
Don the Kiwi

Kris K.

If you claim that the interpretation of Matt.ch.16: 18…. does not appoint Peter as the leader of His flock, I would be interested to know how you interpret these words of Jesus.

Please enlighten me.
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July 26, 2010 5:52pm
grumpyoldhori

Kris K oh dear, I bet you hide under your bed at night away from those nasty Muslims coming to get you.
Head lopping, fuck that, I hope they grill you xtian fucks at the stake, happy clappy arseholes.
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July 26, 2010 5:53pm
Don the Kiwi

Also Kris,

You demonstrate you lack of understanding of intercessory prayer.

If I was very ill, and I asked you to pray for me,………..would you?

That is called intercessory prayer ( I certainly hope you would)
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July 26, 2010 5:55pm
Shunda barunda

And then you additionally have the gall to IMPLY that I am other than ‘open’ and ‘honest’ – excuse me if I don’t feel like obliging.
Hypocrite!

Burn me at the stake-ah!! into the everlasting fiiiiiires ah hell-ah!!!

Seriously Kris, you are giving the Catholics untold shite and you won’t even tell us which church you belong to.
Hypocrisy?
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July 26, 2010 5:58pm
Yvette

Don the Kiwi –
Christ refers to Peter’s faith, not Peter himself.
Peter uses the same imagery in his first epistle: the church is built of numerous small petros “living stones” 1 Peter 2:5. Christ elsewhere declared Himself to be the cornerstone upon which the ‘house’ was built.
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July 26, 2010 5:58pm
Pete George

The drink driving changes sound like well thought out practical options, addressing the problems without restricting those who act responsibility.
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July 26, 2010 6:01pm
Shunda barunda

If you claim that the interpretation of Matt.ch.16: 18…. does not appoint Peter as the leader of His flock, I would be interested to know how you interpret these words of Jesus.

Don, another explanation involves the context of that passage of scripture. It was the first time Peter had shown an understanding of who Jesus was and then Jesus responded with the verse in question. It is possible that Jesus was saying that the revelation that Peter had was the true foundation of Christianity and upon this(the revelation of who Christ is) his church would be built.
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July 26, 2010 6:04pm
Kris K

Scott 5:46 pm,

Kris K- can’t agree with your attacks on the Catholics. Although I don’t agree with all their traditions eg the beliefs about Mary and worshipping her, I think that calling the Pope the anti Christ is pretty extreme and more than a little unhelpful in this debate.

I hear you, Scott, and I actually said, “That the Pope is led by the spirit of antichrist is, I believe, clear.” Not that he was the antichrist – slightly different thing.

We are debating with atheists and non believers about Christianity-what is a true Christian-some good questions there.
How about concentrating on that rather than bagging the pope?

Most people, atheists included, attribute many of the Roman Catholic atrocities to Christianity in general. It’s important this distinction is made clear. Let’s not forget that Rome burnt thousands of Protestants and non-Catholic Christians alive at the stake for rejecting the authority of Rome and her Pope. Plus I have a real concern for Catholics who are caught up in what I believe is a corrupt spiritual system; which preaches a false gospel; one which DOESN’T lead to salvation.

For what its worth the previous pope for instance did some good stuff and was a fierce critic of totalitarianism from the right (Nazism which he encountered as a young man in WW2) and from the left (Communism in Poland in which he was as Pope a vital part of the resistance).

I know you’re familiar with the following verse, and the principle behind it, Scott:
“a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump”.
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July 26, 2010 6:08pm
Shunda barunda

I hear you, Scott, and I actually said, “That the Pope is led by the spirit of antichrist is, I believe, clear.” Not that he was the antichrist – slightly different thing.

And every Church that submits to the model of one Pastor over the flock is every bit as involved in the same papal system regardless of whether they are Catholoic or Protestant.

“call no man your father because you have but one father”
“call no man your teacher because you have but one teacher”

Your church have a Pastor Kris?
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July 26, 2010 6:18pm
Steve

Wasn’t that an interesting day?
Maybe tomorrow General Debate could be about something Generally Different instead of being the Devil Dodger’s C(h)at room
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July 26, 2010 6:27pm
Hurf Durf

Anyone else fancy chipping in for a one-way ticket to Turkey for DenseOldFuckwit? He can join the army and kill himself some Jooooooooz when the Israeli-Turkish War he so desperately wants to happen break out.
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July 26, 2010 6:29pm
Kris K

Don the Kiwi 5:55 pm,

Also Kris,
You demonstrate you lack of understanding of intercessory prayer.
If I was very ill, and I asked you to pray for me,………..would you?
That is called intercessory prayer ( I certainly hope you would)

This has nothing to do with intercessory prayer, as such.
While I, or another Christian, can pray for you intercessorily, the DEAD cannot!
This includes Mary and all the so called RC saints.

In fact God warns AGAINST ‘calling up the dead’; which is what praying to the dead is.
Read about Saul’s encounter with the witch of Endor when he wanted to seek advice from the DEAD Samuel [See 1 Sam 28].
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July 26, 2010 6:32pm
Steve

Some just seem to be hellbent on making other people’s lives as sad and fucking miserable as their own
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July 26, 2010 6:33pm
Kris K

Shunda barunda 6:18 pm,

And every Church that submits to the model of one Pastor over the flock is every bit as involved in the same papal system regardless of whether they are Catholoic or Protestant.

So what do you make of the following verses, then, Shunda?

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

[Note: Obviously not a RC Bishop as THIS guy has a wife and kids]
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July 26, 2010 6:40pm
Don the Kiwi

Kris K.

But these people are not DEAD, they are ALIVE in Christ.

Ther earthly bodies may have died, but their spirit is alive and well – or did Jesus not rise from the dead? as we will?

Seriously my friend, you really need to get to understand that which you condemn. Perhaps you have been reading too much Loraine Boettner or one of his disciples.

In condeming Catholics, you are condemning 1.3 billion Christians.
Other Christian comunities make up about 1.2 billion. I do not condemn them.

Do you really believe that so many people have been decieved? and that has been continuous for the last 2000 years.

Open your eyes brother.
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July 26, 2010 6:45pm
Kris K

Don the Kiwi 5:52 pm,

Kris K.
If you claim that the interpretation of Matt.ch.16: 18…. does not appoint Peter as the leader of His flock, I would be interested to know how you interpret these words of Jesus.
Please enlighten me.

Yvette 5:58 pm and Shunda 6:04 pm pretty much describe my understanding also.
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July 26, 2010 6:50pm
Shunda barunda

There is no way that protestant Christianity has any right to criticise the Catholics.

While Kris K can claim that the Catholics may have some doctrinal problems (which I also believe) protestant Christianity is in just as much of a doctrinal mess.

The Protestant Church has in effect replaced the Catholic way of doing things with their own often *unwritten* rules and laws, all an affront to the Cross, and all a pointless addition to a faith that is supposed to offer freedom and life.

In a sense the Catholics are more honest in their position, the Protestant churches (especially the independent ones Kris belongs to) tend to build rules and regulations based on the whims of their leaders, often with no scriptural mandate whatsoever.

Until Christian people stand up and refuse to submit themselves to this tyranny there will be no change, if they can there is a promise in scripture:

Then we will no longer be infants,tossed back and forth by the waves, and of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the head, that is Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Ephesians 4:14 – 16
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July 26, 2010 6:58pm
RightNow

The problem with python boots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8TM4CIk5g
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July 26, 2010 7:02pm
Kris K

Don the Kiwi 6:45 pm,

Kris K.
But these people are not DEAD, they are ALIVE in Christ.

You miss the point. So I’ll ask again:
Why was Saul condemned for calling up Samual from the DEAD? There is no question Samuel was saved, and therefore ‘alive’ spiritually.

Sorry, Don, but praying to the dead (those with no physical bodies) is NECROMANCY and it’s condemned in the stongest possible terms in the Bible. We are ONLY to pray to God (the Father), through Christ (the Son), as led by (God) the Holy Spirit.
Give me ONE example in the Bible of someone PRAYING TO the DEAD.
or
Of the DEAD praying for the LIVING.
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July 26, 2010 7:04pm
Shunda barunda

So what do you make of the following verses, then, Shunda?

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

[Note: Obviously not a RC Bishop as THIS guy has a wife and kids]

What to make of this Kris?

Well what I would make of it is that it is clear that those of selfish ambition have taken this mandate with out the perquisite character.
I have only met a handful of people that have enough respect for the faith to even bother about qualifying for this noble goal.
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July 26, 2010 7:10pm
Pete George

It seems that Christian groups spend far too time arguing about who is right and not enough time doing what is right.
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July 26, 2010 7:11pm
Kris K

Shunda barunda 6:58 pm,

There is no way that protestant Christianity has any right to criticise the Catholics.

[…]

Until Christian people stand up and refuse to submit themselves to this tyranny there will be no change, if they can there is a promise in scripture:

You didn’t answer my earlier question about 1 Tim 3:1-5 [my 6:40 pm comment], especially regarding,

1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

… which was in answer to your previous question about those in authority in the local church.
Come on, Shunda, no side stepping, now.

[Note: I follow no man blindly, and often query those in leadership in light of:

Act 17:11 These [Bereans] were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

If it ain’t in the Bible, then forget it]
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July 26, 2010 7:19pm
Redbaiter

“There is no way that protestant Christianity has any right to criticise the Catholics.”

This is a political blog. Not a religious blog. I suggest you take your lengthy differences on your faith to a more appropriate forum.
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July 26, 2010 7:19pm
Pete George

This is a political blog.

If that’s the case you’d better complain to higher powers. Look at today’s topics, one on national politics, one on local body politics, 6/8 on other topics:

XT v Vodafone for the iPad
Streakers
Yay!
Great service
Hong Kong Island
Getting silly over expenses
General Debate 26 July 2010
A minor miracle

Yeah, religious “discussions” can end up getting tedious but some people find political arguments just as futile.
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July 26, 2010 7:34pm
Kris K

Shunda barunda 7:10 pm,

What to make of this Kris?

Well what I would make of it is that it is clear that those of selfish ambition have taken this mandate with out the perquisite character.
I have only met a handful of people that have enough respect for the faith to even bother about qualifying for this noble goal.

[Ignore the first half of my 7:19 comment]

You and I both.
If you suspect the local church leader is guilty of “selfish ambition … with out the perquisite character”, or they don’t have “enough respect for the faith”, or if they’re preaching false doctrine – then find another church.

I’ve moved on for a combination of some of the above reasons. I’m loyal to a church leader ONLY so long as they are true to the word of God, and their heart is in the right place. My loyalty is FIRST AND FOREMOST to God and His word – everything else is secondary.

As I said before:
Be like a Berean and “[receive] the word with all readiness of mind, and [search] the scriptures daily, [to see] whether those things were so.”
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July 26, 2010 7:35pm
Pete George

Kris, it does seem odd that someone arguing so strongly that their brand of Christianity is the only true brand won’t advertise which brand they are trying to sell.
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July 26, 2010 7:38pm
Shunda barunda

This is a political blog. Not a religious blog. I suggest you take your lengthy differences on your faith to a more appropriate forum.

Well as long as they are saying a prayer in parliament I will feel fine about talking about matters of faith on a political blog.

If DPF orders a cessation in hostilities I will respect his wishes and avoid the subject.
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July 26, 2010 7:43pm
Don the Kiwi

So Kris K.

What you are saying is, that Jesus has no regard for His own mother. Remember the third commandment.

Jesus honours His mother.

Why shouldn’t we? Or any of those who have found God’s favour?

What truly animates us? Our physical body, or our “anima” – our soul ?

And your understanding, along with Yvette and Shunda of Matt.16:18…….. is flawed and illogical and does not follow syntax. Peter is the subject of the discussion, and of course, Jesus is the foudation. But Jesus calls Peter’s faith the “rock” – he names Simon bar Jonah “Kepha” (Aramaic for rock) and appoints Peter as his shepherd of His flock for when He departs.

“Peter, do you love Me?” “Yes Lord, you know I love you.” Feed my lambs.” etc.

Actually, the bible even states that we should not put our own interpretations on Scripture…………just saying 😉
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July 26, 2010 7:44pm
Steve

Guess what?

Full moon 26.07.10. Lunatics?
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July 26, 2010 7:50pm
Pete George

It’s sometimes not possible to separate politics and religion.

How did David Barker become a Liberal candidate?

“And he will not be our candidate by the close of business today,” Hockey declared. “Tony Abbott has taken a very firm view on this.”

Questioned about Barker’s anti-Muslim Facebook comments on Channel Nine on Sunday, shadow treasurer Joe Hockey condemned Barker for “trying to use religion as some sort of tool in the election campaign”.

Which raises the question of just how a party that has previously been stung by a religious vilification scandal in western Sydney could think that pitting a radical Christian against a Muslim candidate in Chifley was a good idea in the first place.
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July 26, 2010 7:56pm
Don the Kiwi

Well Steve,

touched by something – maybe not the moon. But Hey, who knows, maybe you’re right 🙂
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July 26, 2010 7:56pm
Kris K

I sense the natives are restless, and so will say goodnight.

I understand your concern, Red, but it’s not that often we ‘really get into it’ – at least it’s not the bloody rugby. 😉

I promise to be better behaved tomorow.
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July 26, 2010 7:58pm
Steve

They really don’t know how weird they are (lunatics)
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July 26, 2010 8:00pm
Shunda barunda

Well Steve,

touched by something – maybe not the moon. But Hey, who knows, maybe you’re right

They really don’t know how weird they are (lunatics)

Yet here you both are 😉

What’s that Steve? your 4th I’m not interested in this crap post?
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July 26, 2010 8:15pm
Shunda barunda

I know I am weird by the way.
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July 26, 2010 8:17pm
Don the Kiwi

Well Shunda,

That makes 50 of us 😉
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July 26, 2010 8:23pm
Viking2

Well the whole day of GD stuffed. Quite an achievement Pete.

http://5dias.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/derrame-BP.jpg
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July 26, 2010 9:35pm
RightNow

I’m in four minds about it
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July 26, 2010 9:36pm
Lucia Maria

Kris,

And Peter got it right when he said,
“Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” [Jn 6:68, 69]

Salvation was and is based PURELY and SOLELY on belief on Christ.

Jesus did not say that salvation was based purely and solely on belief in Him. He told what that belief entailed, when He said in the same passage:

53 Then Jesus said to them: “Amen, amen, I say unto you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 54 He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father has sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eats me, the same also shall live by me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers ate manna and are dead. He that eats this bread shall live for ever.”

I can testify to this. The longer I go without eating Jesus, the more spiritually dead I become. I become less peaceful, angered more easily and care less about others. Even though intellectually I remain similar, I change over time.

No mention of believing in some manmade church here; implied or otherwise!

Well, there needs to be some sort of means to be able to eat Our Lord’s and drink His Blood, otherwise how could we fulfil what He is explicitly demanding here.

Show me from the Bible where one must believe in ANY church to obtain salvation and eternal life – I DARE YOU.

The Church is the Bride of Christ. He set Her when He died on the Cross. She is the means through which Our Lord gives us to fulfil His commandments, especially John 6:56. You only have to look at the writings of the early Christians to see that this point was well understood and obeyed right from the beginning (such as St Justin Martyr’s First Apology).

I’m sorry, LM, but you are deceived – you need to look to the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE for your salvation. The Roman Catholic church will lead you straight to hell. I say this with love, and because I care for your eternal destiny. You must make the decision in THIS life; there are no second chances via (a non-existent) purgatory.

I do look to the Lord Jesus for my salvation. And I follow His commandments, as best as I can. I also appreciate that you care enough to say what you’ve said, however, it’s obvious you don’t really know much about Catholicism, therefore misconceptions are understandable.

Such as, Purgatory is not a “second chance”. It’s a state of purification for souls that are on their way to Heaven. That way they can enter Heaven completely spotless. Best to be avoided, as much as possible, as from what I hear it is an agonising place to be, with the worst part being the separation from God.
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July 26, 2010 9:54pm
MikeNZ

Kris K & Lucia

Can you explain to me why Paul said 1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-5.htm

Is this also talking about the same thing?
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
http://biblebrowser.com/1_john/2-1.htm

I’m not cherry picking here but I’ve just got in and read the thread and these scriptures came to mind.
I find the whole of I John 2 interesting esp the bits about the Love of the world (15-16) and anti-christs and denying God (18-24) But buried in the heart of it is he who does the will of God lives forever (17).
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July 26, 2010 11:17pm
Viking2

So Johnkey wants the traders in charge. Not content with having a good candidate they are intent on challenging their own, rather than their competitors in the race for power. Around Wellington there are how many Labour held seats that are there for the picking? Oh yep that will mean hard work and door knocking and all that. you know the stuff that humbles those that wish to be MP’s and brings them face to face with the real life of many.
But no the new aspirants don’t want that. They want to piggy back on the efforts of others. HMMM sounds like socialism practices at their worst.
Go do the hard yards MR Scott.

Rising star eyes Nat MP’s seat
By VERNON SMALL
Last updated 05:00 27/07/2010

Wairarapa MP John Hayes is facing a challenge for the seat from within the National Party by a multimillionaire investment banker.

In an echo of Prime Minister John Key’s route to Parliament, when he successfully challenged sitting Helensville MP Brian Neeson, former Credit Suisse First Boston managing director Alastair Scott is signalling he will throw his hat in the ring.
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July 27, 2010 7:02am
Nefarious

Can anyone recommend a good church for me?
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July 27, 2010 7:07am
Manolo

“Can anyone recommend a good church for me?”

What about the “yourself” church? Where you live for yourself, behave well and respect others, and above all enjoy your own life.

The advantages over other churches are: 1) Do not have to donate money to them; 2) Nobody forces you to believe in fiction and myth; 3) No dodgy priests or unsavoury characters lead the organisation.

I commend it to you.
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July 27, 2010 7:37am
Nefarious

I like it, “The Church of Nefarious”.

I might struggle to convince the flock of point 3.

All joking aside, probably the best unexpected advice posted here.
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July 27, 2010 7:42am
MikeNZ

Why do people join churches in the first place Nefarious?
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July 27, 2010 12:12pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria [July 26th, 2010 at 9:54 pm],

Salvation, whether Old Testament or New, is ALWAYS founded upon faith and belief in God’s grace and forgiveness for sin.

You confuse what Christ was pointing out in John 6:
Christ is comparing the Jews in the wilderness eating PHYSICAL bread (manna), with those who choose to follow Him eating SPIRITUAL bread. Notice how the physical bread (manna) only provided sustenance for the body (the flesh); they still died, whereas the spiritual bread (Christ) provides eternal life – those that ‘eat’ of Christ are the beneficiaries of eternal life.

Now Christ isn’t speaking of LITERALLY eating and drinking HIm; but rather of Him becoming part of the believer in a spiritual sense. Just as food becomes part of the physical body and renews it, partaking of Christ spiritually (through belief and faith) renews our human spirit; we become spiritually ‘alive’ at the point of salvation when the Holy Spirit takes up residence in our human spirit.

To highlight the fact that we DO NOT actually eat Christ LITERALLY I would point out that:
1) the disciples didn’t eat Christ physically at the last supper, and
2) Christ, in His glorified body, is now seated on the right hand of the Father in heaven – and He certainly DOESN’T come down and manifest Himself physically at each and every Roman Catholic mass so attendees can practice human cannibalism.

Jesus even clarified this for the disciples:

Joh 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Like RCs they were thinking along the lines of eating His physical flesh – cannibalism.

…
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

“Doth this [cannibalism] offend you?” – Are you STILL confused?

…
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Christ is saying that His “flesh profiteth nothing” – you don’t eat me PHYSICALLY – “It is the spirit that quickeneth” – that gives eternal/spiritual life. Christ then clarifies this further by saying, “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life”. And then He says, “But there are some of you that believe not”.
So clearly ‘the words of Christ’ (God’s word; God’s spiritual ‘bread’) are them which give eternal/spiritual life. And those who believe on those words (who and what Christ claimed to be) are the beneficiaries of eternal/spiritual life.

So the only way we can avail our selves of the ‘Bread of God’ (Christ Himself) is by believing on the ‘bread of God’ (the words of Christ; the word of God; the scriptures).

Christ EVEN clarifies this further in the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:
The rich man asked that Lazarus might be sent back to the world of the living to warn his family, Christ quotes Abraham in reply, and the rich man responds …

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

When Christ/Abraham says, “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded”, He is actually saying ‘If they hear not the word of God, neither will they be persuaded’. Even if “one rose from the dead” they will still not be persuaded – Christ here alludes to His own resurrection.
Once again it is God’s word that gives spiritual/eternal life.

So when Christ says …

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

… what He is actually saying is, ‘For my words [flesh and blood] are spiritual food indeed’.
********

[LM:] I can testify to this. The longer I go without eating Jesus, the more spiritually dead I become. I become less peaceful, angered more easily and care less about others. Even though intellectually I remain similar, I change over time.

As I have just highlighted:
To partake of Christ you need to partake of his bread; His word. We get to know our Lord and Saviour, and His Father, through God’s word; God’s spiritual bread. God is a God of relationship – He speaks to us through His word, and by His Spirit; and we speak to Him through prayer. It’s a two way relationship.
Do this, and you will be truly satisfied.
The RC mass only leads to spiritual death – it is a blasphemy and an abomination!

And while the local church is important, it is still SECONDARY to God’s word, and it MUST be subservient to God’s word – the scriptures are the final authority, NOT a body made up of fallible men (yes, I include the Pope).

Remember Paul’s commendation of the Bereans:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; …

Paul commends them for testing EVERYTHING he said against the scriptures (- a far cry from the RC church’s and the ‘infallible’ (sic) Pope’s claims to be the sole arbiter of scripture). As a result of this many BELIEVED and received salvation.
********

[LM:] Well, there needs to be some sort of means to be able to eat Our Lord’s and drink His Blood, otherwise how could we fulfil what He is explicitly demanding here.

As I have just pointed out, and while the local church should expound the scriptures (God’s spiritual bread), this is not to replace the importance of the individual believer immersing themselves in God’s word (His spiritual bread), and spending time in prayer with Him.
Once again you confuse the RC mass with partaking of God’s spiritual food; His word.
********

[LM:] The Church is the Bride of Christ. He set Her when He died on the Cross. She is the means through which Our Lord gives us to fulfil His commandments, especially John 6:56.

While the global church (made up of all who BELIEVE on Christ for salvation) is indeed the Bride/Body of Christ, the local church is (or should be) only a subset of this greater body. The local church is and must be subservient to God’s word (God’s spiritual food). Once again, you confuse the RC mass with the word of God; the scriptures.
********

[LM:] I do look to the Lord Jesus for my salvation. And I follow His commandments, as best as I can. I also appreciate that you care enough to say what you’ve said, however, it’s obvious you don’t really know much about Catholicism, therefore misconceptions are understandable.

I think that’s the trouble, LM, I understand the aims and intents of the RC church all too well.
When you follow a system which elevates the Pope and his church to a position ABOVE and SUPERIOR to the word of God, and your faith is primarily in that ‘system’, rather than God, to bring you to salvation, then I believe you are adhering to a false gospel, and that you are ADDING to the completed works of Christ when He died on the cross.

The fact that you have openly admitted there is NO SALVATION outside of the RC church, and that the Pope is infallible, and that he ALONE is able to interpret scripture reveals to me that your faith and hope is in the RC church and its Pope, and NOT the Lord Jesus Christ and the word of God. You are following an UNBIBLICAL spiritual system which I have more than adequatley shown you to be in error, and to be in direct contradiction to the word of God.

I am deadly serious, Lucia, when I say that your eternal destiny is at stake, and that the RC church and its Pope will take you straight to hell.

[LM:] Such as, Purgatory is not a “second chance”. It’s a state of purification for souls that are on their way to Heaven. That way they can enter Heaven completely spotless. Best to be avoided, as much as possible, as from what I hear it is an agonising place to be, with the worst part being the separation from God.

We are only made “spiritually spotless” when we are hidden behind the cross of Christ and washed in His (spiritual) blood – which happens at salvation. This is no ‘process’ which includes some imaginary purification period spent in some equally imaginary location called purgatory. As I’ve said before, salvation is an instantaneous spiritual transaction which occurs when an individual receives Christ as their Lord and Saviour.
Show me, from the Bible, where purgatory is mentioned; and where it is stated that it is for the purification of souls.

As I’ve said before:
I say this with love, and because I care for your eternal destiny. You must make the decision in THIS life; there are no second chances.
I trust you will prayerfully consider what I’ve said above in light of the scriptures ALONE – remember Paul’s commendation to the Bereans:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, [to see] whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them BELIEVED …
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July 28, 2010 1:19pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria [July 26th, 2010 at 9:54 pm],

Salvation, whether Old Testament or New, is ALWAYS founded upon faith and belief in God’s grace and forgiveness for sin.

You confuse what Christ was pointing out in John 6:
Christ is comparing the Jews in the wilderness eating PHYSICAL bread (manna), with those who choose to follow Him eating SPIRITUAL bread. Notice how the physical bread (manna) only provided sustenance for the body (the flesh); they still died, whereas the spiritual bread (Christ) provides eternal life – those that ‘eat’ of Christ are the beneficiaries of eternal life.

Now Christ isn’t speaking of LITERALLY eating and drinking HIm; but rather of Him becoming part of the believer in a spiritual sense. Just as food becomes part of the physical body and renews it, partaking of Christ spiritually (through belief and faith) renews our human spirit; we become spiritually ‘alive’ at the point of salvation when the Holy Spirit takes up residence in our human spirit.

To highlight the fact that we DO NOT actually eat Christ LITERALLY I would point out that:
1) the disciples didn’t eat Christ physically at the last supper, and
2) Christ, in His glorified body, is now seated on the right hand of the Father in heaven – and He certainly DOESN’T come down and manifest Himself physically at each and every Roman Catholic mass so attendees can practice human cannibalism.

Jesus even clarified this for the disciples:

Joh 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Like RCs they were thinking along the lines of eating His physical flesh – cannibalism.

…
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

“Doth this [cannibalism] offend you?” – Are you STILL confused?

…
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Christ is saying that His “flesh profiteth nothing” – you don’t eat me PHYSICALLY – “It is the spirit that quickeneth” – that gives eternal/spiritual life. Christ then clarifies this further by saying, “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life”. And then He says, “But there are some of you that believe not”.
So clearly ‘the words of Christ’ (God’s word; God’s spiritual ‘bread’) are them which give eternal/spiritual life. And those who believe on those words (who and what Christ claimed to be) are the beneficiaries of eternal/spiritual life.

So the only way we can avail our selves of the ‘Bread of God’ (Christ Himself) is by believing on the ‘bread of God’ (the words of Christ; the word of God; the scriptures).

Christ EVEN clarifies this further in the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:
The rich man asked that Lazarus might be sent back to the world of the living to warn his family, Christ quotes Abraham in reply, and the rich man responds …

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

When Christ/Abraham says, “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded”, He is actually saying ‘If they hear not the word of God, neither will they be persuaded’. Even if “one rose from the dead” they will still not be persuaded – Christ here alludes to His own resurrection.
Once again it is God’s word that gives spiritual/eternal life.

So when Christ says …

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

… what He is actually saying is, ‘For my words [flesh and blood] are spiritual food indeed’.
********
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July 28, 2010 2:46pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria [July 26th, 2010 at 9:54 pm],
Part 2

[LM:] I can testify to this. The longer I go without eating Jesus, the more spiritually dead I become. I become less peaceful, angered more easily and care less about others. Even though intellectually I remain similar, I change over time.

As I have just highlighted:
To partake of Christ you need to partake of his bread; His word. We get to know our Lord and Saviour, and His Father, through God’s word; God’s spiritual bread. God is a God of relationship – He speaks to us through His word, and by His Spirit; and we speak to Him through prayer. It’s a two way relationship.
Do this, and you will be truly satisfied.
The RC mass only leads to spiritual death – it is a blasphemy and an abomination!

And while the local church is important, it is still SECONDARY to God’s word, and it MUST be subservient to God’s word – the scriptures are the final authority, NOT a body made up of fallible men (yes, I include the Pope).

Remember Paul’s commendation of the Bereans:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; …

Paul commends them for testing EVERYTHING he said against the scriptures (- a far cry from the RC church’s and the ‘infallible’ (sic) Pope’s claims to be the sole arbiter of scripture). As a result of this many BELIEVED and received salvation.
********

[LM:] Well, there needs to be some sort of means to be able to eat Our Lord’s and drink His Blood, otherwise how could we fulfil what He is explicitly demanding here.

As I have just pointed out, and while the local church should expound the scriptures (God’s spiritual bread), this is not to replace the importance of the individual believer immersing themselves in God’s word (His spiritual bread), and spending time in prayer with Him.
Once again you confuse the RC mass with partaking of God’s spiritual food; His word.
********

[LM:] The Church is the Bride of Christ. He set Her when He died on the Cross. She is the means through which Our Lord gives us to fulfil His commandments, especially John 6:56.

While the global church (made up of all who BELIEVE on Christ for salvation) is indeed the Bride/Body of Christ, the local church is (or should be) only a subset of this greater body. The local church is and must be subservient to God’s word (God’s spiritual food). Once again, you confuse the RC mass with the word of God; the scriptures.
********

[LM:] I do look to the Lord Jesus for my salvation. And I follow His commandments, as best as I can. I also appreciate that you care enough to say what you’ve said, however, it’s obvious you don’t really know much about Catholicism, therefore misconceptions are understandable.

I think that’s the trouble, LM, I understand the aims and intents of the RC church all too well.
When you follow a system which elevates the Pope and his church to a position ABOVE and SUPERIOR to the word of God, and your faith is primarily in that ‘system’, rather than God, to bring you to salvation, then I believe you are adhering to a false gospel, and that you are ADDING to the completed works of Christ when He died on the cross.

The fact that you have openly admitted there is NO SALVATION outside of the RC church, and that the Pope is infallible, and that he ALONE is able to interpret scripture reveals to me that your faith and hope is in the RC church and its Pope, and NOT the Lord Jesus Christ and the word of God. You are following an UNBIBLICAL spiritual system which I have more than adequatley shown you to be in error, and to be in direct contradiction to the word of God.

I am deadly serious, Lucia, when I say that your eternal destiny is at stake, and that the RC church and its Pope will take you straight to hell.

[LM:] Such as, Purgatory is not a “second chance”. It’s a state of purification for souls that are on their way to Heaven. That way they can enter Heaven completely spotless. Best to be avoided, as much as possible, as from what I hear it is an agonising place to be, with the worst part being the separation from God.

We are only made “spiritually spotless” when we are hidden behind the cross of Christ and washed in His (spiritual) blood – which happens at salvation. This is no ‘process’ which includes some imaginary purification period spent in some equally imaginary location called purgatory. As I’ve said before, salvation is an instantaneous spiritual transaction which occurs when an individual receives Christ as their Lord and Saviour.
Show me, from the Bible, where purgatory is mentioned; and where it is stated that it is for the purification of souls.

As I’ve said before:
I say this with love, and because I care for your eternal destiny. You must make the decision in THIS life; there are no second chances.
I trust you will prayerfully consider what I’ve said above in light of the scriptures ALONE – remember Paul’s commendation to the Bereans:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, [to see] whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them BELIEVED …
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July 28, 2010 2:48pm
Courage Wolf

Gee, you better start reading those Jack Chick tracts Lucie – didn’t you know that all Catholics have devils gleefully rubbing their hands behind them? And don’t forget – he emphasises that he is doing it because he loves Catholics and cares for their eternal destinies!
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July 28, 2010 3:16pm
Kris K

MikeNZ [July 26th, 2010 at 11:17 pm], FOR YOU TOO, LUCIA,

Kris K & Lucia

Can you explain to me why Paul said 1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-5.htm

Is this also talking about the same thing?
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
http://biblebrowser.com/1_john/2-1.htm

I’m not cherry picking here but I’ve just got in and read the thread and these scriptures came to mind.
I find the whole of I John 2 interesting esp the bits about the Love of the world (15-16) and anti-christs and denying God (18-24) But buried in the heart of it is he who does the will of God lives forever (17).

Mike, here’s my understanding:

1 Timothy 2:5

Wesley’s Notes (from your link):
1 Tim 2:5 For – The fourth verse is proved by the fifth; the first, by the fourth. There is one God – And they who have not him, through the one Mediator, have no God. One mediator also – We could not rejoice that there is a God, were there not a mediator also; one who stands between God and men, to reconcile man to God, and to transact the whole affair of our salvation. This excludes all other mediators, as saints and angels, whom the Papists set up and idolatrously worship as such: just as the heathens of old set up many mediators, to pacify their superior gods. The man – Therefore all men are to apply to this mediator, who gave himself for all.

Wesley gets it right:
Christ alone is the only mediator between God and man. NOT angels, not dead ‘saints’, not priests, not Popes; but Christ alone.
Christ is/became our high priest; and when He died on the cross the veil between the outer court and the holy of holies was torn in two showing that the old priesthood had passed away (where men were the intermediaries between God and man), and this was NOW replaced with a NEW and BETTER covenant.

This is why we are instructed to … “call no man your father upon the earth”:

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

This is where the RC church goes wrong – there are no longer priests, (spiritual) fathers, or (spiritual) masters on the earth – Christ did away with ALL these when He died on the cross. Once again, the word of God is our ONLY authority as believers. Any church we may attend MUST be subservient to and accountable to God’s word; the Bible.
********

1 John 2:1

Once again, that Christ alone is the only advocate on behalf of men, and that He alone petitions God (the Father) on our behalf is made clear. And that Christ, too, is the only one who is righteous.
This does away with the possibility of Mary, or other so called dead saints, speaking on behalf of men before God (the Father).

So yes, 1 Tim 2:5 and 1 John 2:1 essentially cover the same ground – and that they are in direct contradiction to RC teaching is clear.
********

Yes 1 John 2 is a very interesting chapter.

[17] “… but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
Obviously only someone who is ‘in Christ’ can please God, and can do His will. We know that at conversion we become new creatures in Christ – an unsaved individual CANNOT please God. And believers (sons of God) can only please God when we obey His word and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit (which indwells and seals us from conversion onward).

Those that would usurp and take the place of Christ are indeed antichrists [vs 18], and we know that there will be many which would come in the end times – essentially the times from when Christ revealed Himself until He comes for His own – at which time the LITERAL Antichrist will be revealed.
Of course I believe the RC church hierarchy and its Pope[s] are one of the antichrists mentioned in verse 18.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Any religious system which adds to, or subtracts from, the completed works of Christ does, in fact, deny Christ. Belief on Christ ALONE is foundational to salvation; any addition requirements are blasphemous and heretical. That the RC church and its Pope is guilty of this is manifestly clear.

The apostle John even warns us again in Revelation:

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

A dire warning indeed to those who would guilty of such things – including those who find themselves in submission to a corrupt spiritual system.
Once again, I advise the average Catholic to GET OUT of the RC church, submit to God’s word, obey it, and ensure that your name is written in the Lambs book of life by putting your faith and trust in Christ alone as revealed in the scriptures.
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July 28, 2010 4:00pm
Courage Wolf

That’s right Lucie and all you other Catholics following your FALSE RELIGION. You better GET OUT of your Church! Forget all your family members and the relationships with your priests and other Catholics that you’ve made in your life! If you continue following your FALSE DOCTRINES you will END UP IN HELL!!! I ONLY SAY THIS BECAUSE GOD LOVES YOU AND CARES ABOUT YOUR SOUL!!!

Your religion is WRONG because you believe in the POPE AS BEING BIGGER THAN GOD!!!

I quote to you the following scriptures to prove my point:

“And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.” Deuteronomy 31:16

THIS IS CLEARLY A REFERENCE TO THOSE WHO FOLLOW IN CATHOLIC TEACHINGS! You are prostituting yourself to the devil!

This verse on the other hand:

Philippians 1:22-23 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don’t know which is better. I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. (NLT)

This is clearly referring to Protestant Christianity – the only one true religion.

So do not ignore what I have to say – because I say it with a grieving heart that you and your family members are going to end up in Hell if you continue following the false religion that is Catholicism.

Anyhow, I’m sure that’s what Kris K is trying to tell you. You better listen to it… OR ELSE.
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July 28, 2010 4:32pm
Fletch

Kris, I am not going to answer all of that because it would take awhile, but the main thing I want to say is that I think you do not understand.

I think that the rationale you use to explain away the Body and Blood of Christ is just that: a rationale – so much difficult ‘maybe it means this’, or ‘maybe it means that’, when sometimes the obvious is what Christ meant. When those followers in John 6 started walking away because the saying of Jesus was too hard and they “followed Him no more”. Do you not think He would have called them back and said, “hey guys, I didn’t mean for you to take me literally there”. In other parts of the Gospel Jesus calls Himself the Gate, the Vine, the Shepherd, and if someone does not understand, He explains it.

In this instance when even His apostles are grumbling, he doesn’t say (when they are alone together, when he often explained His parables to them away from the crowds), “well, I didn’t really mean it – I meant spiritually”. No – instead he asks, “and you, do you want to leave too”? He does not take back what he said or explain it away as a parable – he means it literally.

I don’t think you can put it more literally than saying –

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

It is pretty obvious. And in translation, the word he uses for “eat” is “gnaw”. He is not talking figuratively.

In Corinthians, Paul says –

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

That is pretty obvious to me, as well.

What did the Early Church Fathers say about the Eucharist? Ignatius of Antioch writing in 110 AD says –

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justyn Martyr –

“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, another venerable Church Father, wrote,

“Since then he has declared instead of the bread, ‘This is my body,’ who after that will venture to doubt. And seeing that he has affirmed and said, ‘This is my blood,’ who will raise a question and say it is not his blood?”

If the bread and wine are just bread and wine, then why the seriousness about who could partake of it? No – all down through the Churches history from the first apostles until now, the bread and wine are proclaimed to be the actual body and blood of Christ. You will find it hard in the first eight centuries to find anyone denying the Real Presence of Jesus in the bread and wine.
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July 28, 2010 7:53pm
Fletch

It is worth noting that even Martin Luther believed in the Real Presence, as he explains in The Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ–Against the Fanatics

Here is a summary from Wiki –

What one must believe is explained by “the clear text and the plain words of Christ” in the Words of Institution.[16] Whoever does not believe these words has fallen into a mind trick devised by the devil[17] and has a perspective distorted by “colored glass.”[18] The word “is” means “is” in the literal way that one uses for common speaking at the dinner table.[19] Christ distributes his body and blood in the sacrament in a way similar to how he distributes himself across the entire world.[20]

Rational arguments counter the reasons the Swiss do not accept Christ’s true body and blood in the sacrament. To those who claim that there must be a location for Christ’s body to be present under the bread, Luther responds that the soul is also illocal, yet is still really present throughout the body.[21] Lest anyone think that the real presence it is too great a miracle to be present in all the churches all the time, Luther cites the sprouting of seeds and the power of words to persuade as common, great, proliferating miracles.[22] When objectors cite the incompatibility of non-living objects with Christ, Luther reminds them that the presence of Christ in the hearts of faithful is an even a greater miracle.[23] Against the lack of an entry site for Christ’s body to enter the bread, Luther notes that the Christ entered into the Virgin Mary solely through the power of the Word, without any noticeable physical entry.[24]

Luther noticed an inherent danger in his appeal to Christ’s ubiquity to assert his real presence. If Christ is in all things, then perhaps he can be found in all things, similar to pantheism. Luther prevents pantheism from joining the discussion table by limiting the search for Christ to what God’s Word alone has authorized. Any searching for Christ apart from the Word is idolatry.[25]
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July 28, 2010 8:14pm
Lucia Maria

Fletch,

Thanks for all that!
I don’t disagree with anything you said.
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July 28, 2010 9:04pm
Don the Kiwi

Fletch.

A very good response to Kris K.
Sadly, he is among the many decieived who follow the bile of Lorraine Boettner, or as Courage Wolf says, the Jack Chick tracts.

Kris K needs to understand that ther is NOTHING in the teaching of the Catholic Church that was not taught by Christ and His apostles. The Pope and bishops are the suucessors of the apostles who were given the duty to lead His church.
He also needs to understand that he cannot say that other are condemned to Hell. His words reek of judgementalism.

“Judge Not, and you will not be judged.”
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July 28, 2010 9:14pm
MikeNZ

hi guys
Can you tell me where in the Eucharist does the biscuit become the body and the wine become the blood?
Similarly why can only the priest make the reserved sacrament and why is there a light on in the sacristy to mark it?

How does the priesthood of all believers fit in with this?
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July 28, 2010 11:40pm
Lucia Maria

MikeNZ,

You asked about Christ as Mediator. Here is the Catholic position on that:

A mediator is one who brings estranged parties to an amicable agreement. In New Testament theology the term invariably implies that the estranged beings are God and man, and it is appropriated to Christ, the One Mediator. When special friends of God — angels, saints, holy men — plead our cause before God, they mediate “with Christ”; their mediation is only secondary and is better called intercession. Moses, howover, is the proper mediator of the Old Testament (Galatians 3:19-20).

I’ve just quoted the introduction to the Catholic Encyclopaedia page that goes through this in detail. For more information, see Mediator (Christ as Mediator)
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July 29, 2010 11:23am
Kris K

Just a quick note regarding my comments yesterday, Wednesday 28-07-10, to Lucia Maria:

As my original comment at 1:19 pm didn’t come through initially due to moderation, I split it into TWO comments; the first at 2:46 pm, the second at 2:48 pm. Now that the original FULL LENGTH comment (1:19 pm) has come through, please ignore the two half comments of 2:46 & 2:48 pm.
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July 29, 2010 2:19pm

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