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June 30, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 30 June 2010

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General Debate

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MikeNZ

big bruv (6717) Says:
June 30th, 2010 at 4:42 pm

They are heroes, because they say what needs to be said for free and frank discussion to happen.
rather like you sometimes 🙂
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June 30, 2010 4:49pm
side show bob

“I knew those wind-up comments would excite you all”. Oh come on Luc, wind-up comments, I don’t think so, more like arse covering after the comments.

3. I wonder how our glorious leader sees Al Bore now, he is after all Shonkey’s hero. Just proves there is a sucker born every minute
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June 30, 2010 4:59pm
wreck1080

Isn’t it just outrageous how the government will prosecute companies if they think they raise prices too much because of the ETS.

Where the hell do we live? Communist china?

I thought businesses are free to set prices how they like.
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June 30, 2010 5:03pm
philu

on this smoking thing….?

i used to smoke thirty a day…(back when cigarettes were cigarettes…advertised as ‘high-tar’…)

..and more than that when partying….

i used pot to ease me thru nicotine-withdrawals….

worked for me…

(just saying..!..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 30, 2010 5:14pm
grumpyoldhori

krazykiwi yes I do believe all politicians are a self serving bunch with a very few exceptions, and neither Hide not Douglas come into those exceptions
Now you seem to be stating that we voters should support a party whose leader seems to be ruled by the mantra, do as I say not as I do.
ACT against socialism, so why the fuck are they part of a socialistic coalition ?
Or is it those minister’s cars etc ?
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June 30, 2010 5:16pm
Redbaiter

“Where the hell do we live? Communist china?”

Someone was saying the other day there’s actually more freedom there. What kind of lame dumbfucks vote themselves into tyranny?? What an abuse of democracy.
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June 30, 2010 5:19pm
expat

Someone was wrong Red.
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June 30, 2010 5:24pm
philu

and a prediction for election time…?

we lose the rugby world cup…and the prisons are burning….

and i’ll tell you one thing for free…

there will be a rash of screw-resignations…

..timed for just before the ban comes in…

..just about every prison will be a flashpoint..

..and at the very least there will be serious assaults..

..at worst….deaths..and wholesale riots in prisons up and down the land….

this government is really getting the reputation for stupid/unworkable flights-of-fancy ‘ideas’…

..but this one..?

this on is the purler of all purlers…

mindnumbingly fucken dumb…

..and a ticking-clock countdown to a fucken disaster…

(btw..kim workman..on nat-rad yesterday..said the screws are terrified at the prospect…

..of all day spent with a large group of violent crims….who are jonesing thru nico-withdrawals..

fucken hell…!

i’d be running for the hills too…

..if i were them…)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 30, 2010 5:25pm
krazykiwi

@grumpy – No vote is a pure ‘win’ for me. I suspect this sentiment may be shared by quite a few (most?) voters. So there’s upside and downside. I weigh the options and choose to party vote ACT. That’s a better choice than would be abstaining IMO.
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June 30, 2010 5:25pm
grumpyoldhori

MikeNZ anti-Semite, you seem confused about that, a fair proportion of those who practice the Jewish faith in Israel are not Semite, but the majority of Arabs in the area are Semite.
There has been some interesting DNA studies on it.

The magazine article, seems to be stating that the Islamic faith should have no input into Turkish political life but ignores the fact that Israel is a country where the Jewish faith does have a bit of input into political life.
Not smart of Israel to get the Turks peefed, unlike some Muslims they are one bunch who can do a bayonet charge from hell.
If Israeli army decide to have another summer tour in Lebanon they could well find themselves facing a couple of hundred thousand Turks.
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June 30, 2010 5:42pm
WebWrat

“3. I wonder how our glorious leader sees Al Bore now, he is after all Shonkey’s hero. Just proves there is a sucker born every minute”

You mean to say the leader of our country thinks Al Gore is an OK guy?

We’re fucked

Give me strength.
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June 30, 2010 5:52pm
Put it away

Phool you really seem like you’re typing with one hand when you start hyperventilating and drooling about these non-existent riots and countdowns to disaster and other products of your drug-abused brain. Some states in Oz have done it. 25 states in the US have done it ( even Virginia… ), maybe you could give us a rundown of the death toll so far ?

phool – “i used pot to ease me thru nicotine-withdrawals….”

He swallowed the spider to catch the fly. I don’t know why he swallowed the fly. Probably just a bit thick ?
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June 30, 2010 5:53pm
redeye

Government introduces new tax causing Government owned enterprises to increase prices. Government then warns said Government owned enterprises not to increase the price too much or they’ll fine em. What’s the name of this game?
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June 30, 2010 6:06pm
Yvette

Genesis Energy, just quoted on ONE NEWS, has said they will not raise prices yet “until they know the true cost of the ETS” to them. The implication here is that those raising costs form tomorrow, are not passing on a cost but hedging against one. Surely this already qualifies for Commerce Commission questioning.
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June 30, 2010 6:18pm
krazykiwi

redeye – another angle on tax increases: Owners of state integrated schools (Catholic, Christian, Rudolf Steiner etc) are contracted to charge attendance dues inclusive of GST to a maximum amount which is inclusive of GST. This means the GST increase must be absorbed by the schools and can not be passed on. I’m investigating further.
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June 30, 2010 6:29pm
Steve

phool – “i used pot to ease me thru nicotine-withdrawals….”

He swallowed the spider to catch the fly. I don’t know why he swallowed the fly. Probably just a bit thick ?

I/we are still laughing. Very very fucked up person this phool
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June 30, 2010 6:42pm
krazykiwi

Ooops. It’s inclusive, but just once! Must check comment text
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June 30, 2010 6:43pm
side show bob

WebWrat , yes old Shonkey thinks Al’s the bees knees. Al Bore came to NZ some years ago to show the ruling elite his piece of shit ” The Inconvenient Truth”. Seems old Shonkey had some sort of eureka moment and came out of the theater claiming the world is fucked and Al is God. As I said one born every minute. I just wish someone would tell Shonkey the truth according to Al should be taken with a very small grain of salt..
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June 30, 2010 6:55pm
big bruv

Question.

What was the first political blog in NZ and is it still in existence?
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June 30, 2010 7:00pm
Manolo

“the truth according to Al should be taken with a very small grain of salt.”
Yes, followed by a nice relaxing massage session with a busty redhead.
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June 30, 2010 7:15pm
krazykiwi

Global Warming News: Sydney recorded its coldest June morning today since 1949, with temperatures diving to 4.3 degrees just before 6:00am.
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June 30, 2010 7:26pm
Viking2

Misleading Statement Number 1
In the next 12 months the government has to pay $1.1 billion to foresters, in the form of emissions credits for forests planted since 1990.

The Truth
Nick Smith’s own officials confirmed to me that this was not correct. This figure is a combination of payments for both pre 1990 forests and post 1989 forests. And there is a very important difference. The first is a lump sum; non-recurring payment ($420 million) and the second ($685 million) covers forests planted in 2008, 2009 and 2010 and has an ongoing recurring element Also, those who planted forests in the 1990s and early 2000’s did so without any expectation of emissions credits or subsidies from their fellow taxpayers.

The governments budget documents this year also showed that the payment due to foresters who planted post-1990, is $1.6 billion over the years 2008-2012 . This $1.6 billion is based on an assumption that 67 percent of eligible post-1989 foresters will take up their entitlement. Unfortunately for National, government officials have advised me that recent projections show that some 87 percent of foresters may now be planning to take up their entitlement. If this happens, the $1.6 billion will blow out to over $2 billion.

When will they come clean on that?

These subsidies will go to New Zealand and foreign-owned forests alike. These payouts will be funded by all New Zealanders, forced to pay more for electricity and fuel – and all for no environmental gain whatsoever!!

ACT says we should defer the ETS and compensate foresters who planted after the forestry aspect of the ETS came into effect on 1 January, 2008, because they did so with the expectation that they would receive carbon credits from the government. So it is only fair to compensate them. That would cost no more than $20 million and would be a much cheaper option.

Misleading Statement Number 2
The Government’s revenue in the first year from the ETS will be about $350 million.

The Truth
Nick Smith’s officials also confirmed to me that this figure excludes the windfall profit gains from the three government owned electricity generators. So Act expects the government revenue from the ETS will be in excess of $500 million pa

Misleading Statement 3
New Zealand is not leading the world with our ETS, because 29 other countries have one.

The Truth
The New Zealand ETS is a single country scheme; no other country in the world has a single country scheme. The European Union as a trading bloc has a scheme which covers 29 countries. The European ETS imposes costs on the entire European trading bloc and 80 percent of European exports are internal, only 20 % go outside of Europe. In contrast, 85% of New Zealand’s exports go to countries that do not have an ETS. New Zealand truly leads the world, in penalising our exporters and farmers, all for no environmental gain. The European ETS also excludes major parts of their economy, whereas our government has been very proud of the fact that our all gases/all sectors ETS is a world first.

Misleading Statement 4
New data shows that the moderated ETS has reversed the trend of deforestation which was a major worry under Labour.

The Truth
New Zealand’s plantation forest area grew extensively through the 1990s. In the lead up to 1 January, 2008, there was excessive harvesting of forests, only because people rushed to fell them before January 1 so they wouldn’t be subject to a bill of $17,000 per hectare. This would never have happened if it weren’t for the ETS.

Misleading Statement 5
National’s development and implementation of the ETS is in line with National’s 2008 election policy.

The Truth
It is true that National said they would continue with an ETS albeit an amended version. ACT was the only party last election who campaigned to “dump the ETS”. However, bear in mind that John Key also said in October 2008; “we shouldn’t be the world leader because that will come at the expense of our economy”.
Since the election, many things have changed. We are now the only single country with an all encompassing ETS. We are now world leaders.

Misleading Statement 6
In response to ACT’s statements about carbon taxes on petrol, you will be told that “29 countries have implemented an ETS. Most of the schemes include some kind of coverage of petrol, diesel and electricity generation.”

The Truth
The UK – has a carbon tax on petrol but it does not apply to the transport or domestic sector.
Sweden – has a carbon tax on petrol and its introduction coincided with a major tax reform with the aim to reduce taxes on income and capital and to increase environmental taxes.
Norway – has a carbon tax on all fossil fuels but some industry sectors were granted exemptions to preserve their competitive position.
Denmark – has a carbon tax on diesel only and does not cover the transport sector.
Finland –has a carbon tax covering fuels used for heating and transportation.
Ireland- has recently introduced a tax on petrol and auto-diesel which includes the transport sector but excludes the 12,000 installations, covering industrial and stationary energy activities already covered by the EU ETS

So of the 29 countries that come under the umbrella of the European ETS, only three have a carbon tax on petrol that covers the domestic sector. Nick Smith stretches the truth when he claims that “Most of the schemes include some kind of coverage of petrol…”

Outside of Europe Quebec has a small carbon tax on petrol of 0.8 cents per litre.

Misleading Statement 7
The Government views this issue as one of risk management. There are uncertainties in the science, just as there are over earthquakes, but the prudent approach is to take steps to reduce the risks.’

The Truth
This is ridiculous. Not only are there uncertainties over whether global warming is occurring – and if so, whether it is man-made – everyone agrees New Zealand is too small to make any difference to world climate. The Prime Minister’s own Chief Science Advisor Professor Sir Peter Gluckman has said ‘anything we do as a nation will in itself have little impact on the climate – our impact will be symbolic, moral and political.

Misleading Statement 8
The government is also conscious of concerns specific to New Zealand’s economic resilience, namely the high value consumer markets where issues of carbon footprint pose a long term risk to our key export industries.

The Truth
49% of New Zealand’s exports go to our top 4 trading partners, Australia, United States of America, People’s Republic of China and Japan. These total $18 billion per annum or 48.5 % of our total exports. None of these countries have an ETS and are unlikely to ever have one. Our exports to all of the EU countries combined total $5 billion per annum or 14.3 % of the total.

Thanks to John Boscowan.
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June 30, 2010 7:34pm
Viking2

Putting Us In Our Places
Chris Trotter

No Friend of Dissent: Like many Pakeha politicians who have embraced the Maori Nationalist cause, Attorney General, and Treaty Negotiations Minister, Chris Finlayson, reserves his most deadly venom for those who dare to question the State’s race relations policies.

AM I THE ONLY New Zealander feeling less than a respected citizen today? Or that the full and equal protection of the laws no longer applies to me? Am I alone in suspecting that, constitutionally-speaking, something important is about to take place – without the nation’s consent?

What set me to pondering these questions was an extraordinary interview broadcast by Radio New Zealand on Tuesday morning.

Morning Report’s Geoff Robinson was talking to Treaty Negotiations Minister, Chris Finlayson, about the agreement secured between National and the Maori Party over the repeal of the Foreshore & Seabed Act.

Preceding the interview listeners had heard reactions to that agreement from Dr Grant Morris, a law lecturer at Victoria University. Michael Barnett, CEO of the Auckland Chamber of Commerce. And Hugh Barr, spokesperson for the Coastal Coalition – a group devoted to preserving public access to New Zealand’s beaches.

All of these men had expressed critical views of the National-Maori Party deal and Finlayson had been asked to respond to their remarks.

What followed was extraordinary.

Rather than address the trio’s arguments, the Treaty Negotiations Minister immediately launched into a series of aggressive put-downs of his critics.

“I didn’t know that Grant Morris knew anything about this subject,” sneered the Minister, “I thought his specialty was legal systems or feminist legal studies.” Michael Barnett, according to Finlayson was “just sounding off because it’s Tuesday morning”. Hugh Barr received a ministerial tongue-lashing for “writing some crummy article in The Dominion Post which contradicted everything I had told him.”

Huffed Finlayson: “I can’t be bothered wasting my time with him.”

But, oh, what a difference a change of ethnicity produced in the Minister. When Morning Report asked for his reaction to the Maori MP, Hone Harawira’s, charge that the whole consultation exercise surrounding the Foreshore & Seabed issue had been “bullshit”, the Minister couldn’t have been sweeter:

“I’m a bit disappointed in Hone,” crooned Finlayson, “because in my opinion he’s a first class chap, and he’s a fantastic MP for the Far North, with John Carter. But one of the things I picked up, from his rohe [tribal territory] actually, was the idea that folk didn’t want to have to go to court, or negotiate, to prove their mana. And I thought that was a fair enough point. So, we’ve added in the universal recognition order as a result of that. So, I think Hone’s a little unfair, with the greatest of respect to him, because I was listening and I was the one who was up on the road hearing what people were saying.”

The contrast: in the Minister’s tone; in his careful choice of words; and most particularly in the extreme care he took not to give offence; was, to say the least, instructive.

The Minister’s Pakeha critics: the CEO of the Auckland Chamber of Commerce (an institution not noted for its hostility to National governments); a university lecturer whose comments were measured and utterly lacking in any kind of personal animus; and a champion of New Zealanders’ right to recreate themselves amidst this country’s spectacular natural beauty; were all the recipients of Finlayson’s disdain, and he expended no serious effort responding to their arguments or questions.

How different it was for the Te Tai Tokerau MP. The man who infamously referred to his fellow New Zealanders as “White Motherf***ers” was responded to with “the greatest of respect” because, in the assessment of the Treaty Negotiations Minister, he is “a first class chap” and, like his colleague, John Carter (the National MP who once impersonated a Maori dole-bludger on John Banks’ Radio Pacific talk-back show) is “a fantastic MP for the Far North”.

The Minister’s Pakeha critics had dared to suggest that the interests of thousands of New Zealanders had been sidelined in the Government’s rush to reach an agreement with the Maori Party.

As Mr Barnett observed: “We still don‘t know what contact has been made with the recreational and conservation interests, the business interests, the local government interests. But we do know that Government has been dealing with Maori, and that it doesn’t seem to be the so-called ‘balanced’ conversation that they suggested that they were going to have.”

Mr Harawira colourfully described this one-sided process as “pandering to the rednecks”.

Would that it were so.
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June 30, 2010 7:42pm
Viking2

*Roll Back: G20 Summit Drops Green Energy Pledge
Deutsche Presse Agentur, 28 June 2010

The leaders of the world’s 20 most powerful developed and developing states (G20) on Sunday dropped a pledge to invest in climate-friendly energy generation from their final summit statement.

Climate change topped the world agenda last year, but was eclipsed after the relative failure of a massive summit in Copenhagen in December. The G20’s decision further tones down international pledges to invest in the fight against global warming.

Earlier drafts of the statement for the summit, which brought together the leaders of key states such as China, India and the United States, said that G20 members “reiterate our commitment to … investments in clean energy.”

But that phrase was left out of the final version, which instead reiterated leaders’ “commitment to a green recovery and to sustainable global growth.”

G20 members are deeply at odds over the climate question. The European Union and Japan have already pledged to make deep greenhouse-gas emissions cuts, but other developed and developing states are at odds over the question of who should do how much.

“The issue shows that the G20 can’t do everything,” one diplomat commented drily.

http://www.nzcpr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32&p=30875#p30875
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June 30, 2010 7:47pm
Hurf Durf

Hey Philip, I’d ask why TVNZ is using taxpayers money to show MSNBC filth on TVNZ7, a channel all of about 20 people watch, when we should all be tightening our belts. Heard of that, Philip? How have you altered your budget to prevent any profligate spending? We’re all in this together after all. Communalism forever!
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June 30, 2010 8:07pm
Chicken Little

The best thing about power companies raising power prices for the ETS is that we make 70% of our power from renewables ( hydro, steam, wind), but because of the way the industry is set up, with the auction system, the highest price offered from, for example, companies with a coal fired station that need to pay for carbon credits, is the price that everyone gets. So companies that produce power from hydro, steam or wind get a windfall as they don’t need to pay for carbon credits but still get the equivalent price as companies that do.

In other words, the consumer (that’s us) is paying extra for the 70% of power that doesn’t attract a carbon charge. Good huh? Funnily enough, the honest ‘for the people’ good guys n gals in the National party have forgotten to mention this to us peasants.

Anyone want to guess who owns the majority of the non carbon tax attracting power producing companies?
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June 30, 2010 8:22pm
Redbaiter

” “I’m a bit disappointed in Hone,” crooned Finlayson, “because in my opinion he’s a first class chap, and he’s a fantastic MP for the Far North, ”

These arrogant treacherous National party Progressives need to be kicked out next election. Nothing surer.
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June 30, 2010 8:34pm
nickb

Did you ask that question to Nick Smith kk?

National have lost my vote forever, what a bunch of gutless wankers. I would rather have Labour in power at the moment, at last they make no secret of being socialist, instead of a bunch of empty suits like National. “Hollow men”, one might call them 🙂
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June 30, 2010 8:53pm
Redbaiter

I agree entirely Nick. National appear to believe that once they have been elected, they are free to treat those who voted for them as fools.

There is only one way to disabuse them of this notion and that is to kick them out. Give them the message that treachery has a cost, and they will not be elected ever again until their party is cleared of left wingers, and prepared to provide a real opposition to Labour.

Labour at least are true to their left wing beliefs. These National people are just utterly disgusting in their lack of purpose, principle and mission.
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June 30, 2010 9:06pm
nickb

Heartily agree.
Nick Smith especially exudes an attitude that he has been supremely annointed by god to be our ruler, and that we should be ever grateful, and dare not question his ETS.

I have a good idea for some anti-National billboards. They should go something like this.

1. Going down:
Income tax (marginally)

2. Going up:
GST
Petrol prices
Gas prices
Electricity prices
Tobacco prices
Alcohol prices
ACC earners levy
Car registrations
Motorcycle registrations
Inflation
Interest rates
Government (meaning your childrens’) debt
Rates
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June 30, 2010 9:13pm
krazykiwi

Did you ask that question to Nick Smith kk?

@nickb – No … I chair a charitable trust and our quarterly funding meeting was this evening. Not happy. Just home now. Very keen to hear how the ETS obfuscation meeting went. Anyone?
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June 30, 2010 10:23pm
krazykiwi

@Viking2 at 7:34 – That list of ETS ‘Misleading Statements’ and ‘Truths’ is gold. It needs to be full-page in every daily newspaper

edit: and so should Chicken Little’s 8:22 comment
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June 30, 2010 10:24pm
philu

what is the charitable trust..?

‘christian fascists for tolerance’…?

‘christian fascists for humanity’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 30, 2010 10:29pm
krazykiwi

And there I was thinking you’d RIPed me phil. I’m touched. Honestly.

Now, why did you lie to us all in claming that you had no internet access from your home? Why must you now ‘stay home’ to look after your son when a few years back you attended Akl Uni? And if you ‘stay home’ where there’s no internet how do you blog so much?

And the biggie… has Paula called yet?
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June 30, 2010 10:35pm
krazykiwi

MSD says: “Most people are honest and use Government services fairly. If you have information about someone who is misusing any of our services, please contact us. Call us on 0800 556 006”

For newcomers here I’d encourage you to help phil into a job. It will improve his self esteem and it would mean that more benefit money was available for the truly needy.

By way of background Phillip Ure lives in Auckland, has an MA in Political Science and is on the DBP which we claims is essential for the care of his teenage son who is a student. Phil has a history of drug abuse and has spent some time in prison, but despite what others here may say, he does have a functioning brain and is perfectly capable of working for a living. He just chooses not to work, and that people is benefit fraud.

So give MSD a call, and help phil help himself.
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June 30, 2010 10:51pm
philu

i don’t rip anyone..

i just ignore..and denigrate..and laugh at..

preachers of hatred and bigotry such as you…

basically..you ain’t gonna just get away with the evils you peddle..eh..?

it’s too dangerous not to stand up to christian fascist scum like you..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 30, 2010 10:52pm
philu

and and make sure you tell them he is really really nasty to mouthbreathing/knuckle-dragging christian fascists..

and could they please make him stop saying such terrible things about them…

‘cos..’cos..it interferes with the flow of the bigotry and the hatred..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 30, 2010 10:57pm
Hurf Durf

At least you can spell “fascist” these days, even if you don’t know what it means.
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June 30, 2010 11:55pm
RightNow

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5034582797873848517#
hilarious scene in this at 5.15
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July 1, 2010 12:45am
starboard

Broads gone…finished….see ya later tubby…no loss…
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July 1, 2010 5:21am
Viking2

Police boss told his time is up
By ANDREA VANCE – The Dominion Post
Last updated 05:00 01/07/2010
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Howard Broad
KEVIN STENT
HOWARD BROAD: Served in uniform and with the CIB for about 18 years before moving into policy, planning and strategy roles at national headquarters. In 1999, he became district commander of the Auckland City Police District. In 2003-04, he was seconded to the Police Standards Unit in the British Home Office and, in 2004, appointed assistant commissioner. He has a law degree and qualifications in police management.

Police Commissioner Broad to step down next year

New Zealand’s top cop has been axed. In a meeting with Police Minister Judith Collins this week, police commissioner Howard Broad learned she will not extend his contract. He will leave in March.

It is understood Mr Broad had been hoping the minister would continue his tenure, which is due to finish in April. He is one of the public service’s top earners, receiving between $490,000 and $499,999 a year.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3872368/Police-boss-told-his-time-is-up

Hopefully Collins will give that other prick Pope a push as well.
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July 1, 2010 6:43am
starboard

the last of klarks champions…” help me howie Im in the shite again”….”no worries H1″….”move along peasants..nothing to see here”…
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July 1, 2010 7:21am

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