General Debate 14 June 2010

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krazykiwi

burt – a telling quote about democracy:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage”
— Elmer T. Peterson
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June 14, 2010 9:29pm
Johnboy

“The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

The Poms have done well then haven’t they. Shame about the treaty.
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June 14, 2010 9:33pm
Gulag1917

Deafening silence from Left as Iranians protest
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/deafening-silence-from-left-as-iranians-protest/story-e6frg6zo-1225879191919
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June 14, 2010 9:35pm
krazykiwi

@Johnboy – Indeed. Where you you think NZ is on the progression? Are we in apathy en route to dependence?
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June 14, 2010 9:36pm
burt

krazykiwi

Cheers, I think mine was snappier but I must concede Peterson kicks my ass in all other regards.
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June 14, 2010 9:56pm
krazykiwi

One for Luc:

Climate Change: what do we know about the IPCC?

Mike Hulme and Martin Mahony, School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia [kk: !!]
::
Consensus-making in the IPCC has been largely driven by the desire to communicate climate science coherently to a wide spectrum of policy users – ‘to construct knowledge’ (Weingart, 1999) – but in so doing communicating uncertainties have been down-played (van der Sluijs, 1998). As Oppenheimer et al. (2007: 1506) remark: “The establishment of consensus by the IPCC is no longer as critical to governments as [is] a full exploration of uncertainty.” [kk: amen to that!]

Without a careful explanation about what it means, this drive for consensus can leave the IPCC vulnerable to outside criticism. Claims such as ‘2,500 of the world’s leading scientists have reached a consensus that human activities are having a significant influence on the climate’ are disingenuous. That particular consensus judgement, as are many others in the IPCC reports, is reached by only a few dozen experts in the specific field of detection and attribution studies; other IPCC authors are experts in other fields.
::

After reading this paper… I’m guessing that Messrs Hulme and Mahony are off the CRU Christmas card list!!!
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June 14, 2010 10:34pm
Redbaiter

That quote is attributed to Alexander Fraser Tytler. Elmer T Paterson only used it in a letter to a newspaper, a long time after it was first recorded.
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June 14, 2010 10:36pm
krazykiwi

Hmm, so it was. Thanks red. I stand corrected.
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June 14, 2010 10:40pm
RRM

The stomach-stapling operations have a one-off cost of less than $35,000, usually halve the patient’s weight and put an end to weight-related health problems. Economically it would appear to be a no-brainer that these operations are worth doing.

And on the “you-did-it-to-yourself” thing…

You can do yourself a virtually limitless number of injuries while playing rugby or any of the other similar, silly, pointless games, and ACC will pay to sort you out so you can run back out and do it again. 3 boys in our office play club rugby or league, and in the last 12 months they’ve been patched up at my expense a total of at least 6 times. They will carry on doing this until they get too old in their mid thirties. By then their knees and hips will be on borrowed time, and I will be stumping up again for joint replacements for them in their 50s and 60s. Not to save their lives, but just to keep them walking around in the manner they are accustomed to.

Go into A&E on a sunday morning to see what a drain sport is on the health system. If those people are worthy of being looked after by the public health system, then I can’t see anything that makes the morbidly obese any less worthy.
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June 14, 2010 11:54pm
Redbaiter

Gawd you commies have minds so poisoned by leftist claptrap. That whole argument says nothing logically other than that government funded health is a crock of shit.
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June 15, 2010 12:06am
Pete George

The stages of democracy look ominous, selfishness, complacency, apathy, dependence, concurrent stages in part at least? But it doesn’t mean we have to accept that course, shouldn’t we try and learn from past mistakes and do better?

What’s the alternative? The RB model? Sit around bitching and wait for a revolution, hope that it is all those you don’t like who end up hanging from lampposts (RB’s often expressed ideal) and start again from the rubble?

What if the revolution turns out to be against Fox and the corrupt Christians? Some of them must wake up to their stupidity too.

Communism raced through it’s stages in less than a century. Why should capitalism be exempt from going through similar type stages? As an ideal capitalism has obvious merit, but like everything else it is vulnerable to corruption and self destruction.

And when you interweave democracy with capitalism do you get a potentially more toxic recipe? It’s not just democracy that’s looking down the barrel.
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June 15, 2010 4:47am
Banana Llama

What do you mean when you say Capitalism PG? i tend to think it’s more like corporatism these days.
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June 15, 2010 8:06am
KiwiGreg

“Communism raced through it’s stages in less than a century. Why should capitalism be exempt from going through similar type stages?”

Maybe because capitalism actually works?
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June 15, 2010 8:20am
Pete George

Capitalism has been largely taken over by corporatism.

Faultless KiwiGreg? Unregulated?

Communism was criticised for trying to mold and brainwash the population. What does private enterprise marketing do? The faceless rule the masses.
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June 15, 2010 8:29am
Redbaiter

Eight idiotic questions and four statements of delusional crap. What a pathetic waste of time.
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June 15, 2010 8:31am
Pete George

The expert in delusional crap makes it’s appearance, wasting time contributing on wasting time.
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June 15, 2010 8:33am
Redbaiter

“What does private enterprise marketing do? ”

IT gives you choice you fucking Marxist bozo, something that your jack booted ghouls of communism would never permit. Take your brain damaged attempts at moral equivalency elsewhere you slimy poisonous dumbarse.
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June 15, 2010 8:35am
Pete George

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it’s evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don’t you know that you can count me out
Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
all right, all right
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June 15, 2010 8:44am
KiwiGreg

“Capitalism has been largely taken over by corporatism.

Faultless KiwiGreg? Unregulated?”

Dont know where you get your statements from, not from any fact-based analysis. The markets in all developed nations are heavily regulated. Have you never been in business? I dont even know what you mean by corporatism; companies are (an important) part of a market economy as they allow the efficient deployment of capital and allow enterprises to contineue longer than one person’s life.

Private enterprise marketing allows consumers to know what choices they have. A lot of it is mindless noise of course. If you dont like choice (and I’m guessing from your comments about capitalism and democracy you dont) then you wont like that of course.
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June 15, 2010 8:45am
Pete George

Just because I question the purity of capitalism doesn’t mean I’m anti capitalism. Generally it’s a good thing, but it can (and is) misused and abused.

Same with marketing, generally it’s a good thing, but it can be misused and overused. Most try to sell reasonably and fairly, some brainwash the market (successfully).

RB only sees red or not red. That’s just the game he plays. The real world works in shades and mixes.
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June 15, 2010 8:51am
Redbaiter

You’re just a constant weak gutless slimy apologist for totalitarian murderers PG.
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June 15, 2010 9:05am
Pete George

You’ve wound up your abuse generator early today RB.

Just try to relax a bit. National and Maori working together ain’t that bad. Save your blood pressure in case National decide to work together with teachers to come up with a joint approach on standards.
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June 15, 2010 9:16am
krazykiwi

Pete – Mrs krazykiwi is already involved in standards rollout.. vising staff and principals doing National Standards training and feedback. There is a high level of +ve feedback from the front lines, in contrast to the faux rage generated by teachers unions, labour et al. The blood pressure issues will belong to those parties as they realise their battering ram against National is rapidly becoming a limp noodle.
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June 15, 2010 9:25am

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