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May 4, 2010 8:45am by David Farrar

General Debate 4 May 2010

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General Debate

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Ryan Sproull

Malcolm … kind of the opposite, more modern translations are based on higher quality original sources.

More importantly, I’m sure that Kris, Phil and every other quoter of the KJV doesn’t wander around talking to people with Thees, Thous, Lest, Forsooth etc etc. It might be fun if you’re on the set of Pirates of the Caribbean IV. But language has moved on.

The modern ones lack poetry, though.

Perhaps you’d like… The Message.

When John realized that a lot of Pharisees and Sadducees were showing up for a baptismal experience because it was becoming the popular thing to do, he exploded: “Brood of snakes! What do you think you’re doing slithering down here to the river? Do you think a little water on your snakeskins is going to make any difference? It’s your life that must change, not your skin! And don’t think you can pull rank by claiming Abraham as father. Being a descendant of Abraham is neither here nor there. Descendants of Abraham are a dime a dozen. What counts is your life. Is it green and blossoming? Because if it’s deadwood, it goes on the fire.
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May 4, 2010 2:05pm
malcolm

@Virtualmark – ok, thanks.

Relying on humans to translate and publish your message does seem like a false economy for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.
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May 4, 2010 2:07pm
philu

“..and no doubt you won’t be the last. It really does depend on whom I’m interacting with…”

so..c’mon..!..i am presenting the vegan-teachings of jesus to you..

..’interact’..deny(?)…eh..?

if you really do ‘believe’..and it is not just a comfortable social construct for you..

..you should be shitting yrself..for yr animal abusing/killing/eating evil-ways’..

..eh..?

(i think you’ll need something more than fucken ‘shiny’ for this one..eh..?..)

(if you are sincere..)..feel yr culinary belief-foundations ‘shake’..eh..?..)

if not sincere..you will be able to just easily dimiss these teachings from jesus..

..teachings from his time..in his words…

..not written/re-written/edited/excised..as in whatever version of the bible you take as yr ‘word’..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 4, 2010 2:07pm
virtualmark

So Phil what you’re saying is that you’re trying to make a point about Christianity by referencing a document promoting vegetarianism that was written by an unknown author who was part of a Jewish sect devoted to ascetism?
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May 4, 2010 2:07pm
Kris K

virtualmark 1:46 pm,

And, for the love of God, if people feel the need to quote from the Bible can they please quote from a version that’s less than 400 years old.

Let’s be clear; apart from the Catholic church, most/all churches up to about 1950 used the King James Version. All so called modern versions were published subsequent to this time. Plus, and this is a big plus, ALL of the post 1950 ‘modern’ versions use corrupt Roman Catholic source texts; primarily Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Whereas the KJV uses the Majority Received Texts as source documents. Many of these same source texts were confirmed as accurate subsequent to the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

It is also accepted that human scholarship was at its peak around 1600 AD; the time when the KJV was compiled/translated from the Majority Received texts.

So on that basis I’ll be sticking with my “400 year old” Bible – no apologies.
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May 4, 2010 2:12pm
philu

no…i’m making a point about the evils of how we/’christians’ enslave/abuse/kill/eat animals..eh..?

by referencing a document..purporting to be his exact words/teachings…..

written/dated from his time..from the essene sect..from whence he came..eh..?

..warning of the hellfire that will ensue for those who fail to heed his word/teachings/warnings…

..namely…current-example:..kkk…

mmm..kay…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 4, 2010 2:17pm
virtualmark

Ryan … FWIW I’ve been to Masters-level theology lectures from the guy who translated The Message. “Huge Euge”. Called that on account of his massive brain.

I don’t disagree that the gospels show Jesus taking a robust line with the religious authorities of the day, who (paraphrasing) he regarded as being too focussed on their own position and status rather than on the truth. Probably quite right for Christians to have a similarly cautious view of religious authorities today.

But he also spoke very simply and with incredible compassion – the sermon on the Mount for example. I’d feel happier if I could see some Christians posting here who displayed the same compassion and lack of judgementalism.
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May 4, 2010 2:18pm
philu

as you will see…kkk..who is so eager to ‘interact’..to push his barrow…

runs and hides on this one..

..eh..?

kinda ‘telling’ really..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 4, 2010 2:19pm
philu

“..Many of these same source texts were confirmed as accurate subsequent to the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls…”

so..why do you find it impossible to believe..even react to..this dead sea scroll..

..eh..?

there is no doubt as to the authenticity of the scroll/message presented..

..what gives..?..kkk…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 4, 2010 2:24pm
Put it away

Virtualmark – you don’t have to “imagine” jesus using violent language, it’s in there.

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

Revelations is chockka with holy atrocities. There’s nothing of value in these primitive religions. Islam is undeniably the worse of the two, but that’s not much of recommendation for xtianity…
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May 4, 2010 2:26pm
virtualmark

Kris …

ALL of the post 1950 ‘modern’ versions use corrupt Roman Catholic source texts; primarily Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Whereas the KJV uses the Majority Received Texts as source documents. Many of these same source texts were confirmed as accurate subsequent to the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

It is also accepted that human scholarship was at its peak around 1600 AD; the time when the KJV was compiled/translated from the Majority Received texts.

Really??? The King Jimmy is based on the Textus Receptus, which are Byzantine-era portions of the New Testament books. It isn’t even a complete New Testament – the translators had to plug the gaps using Latin material from the Vulgate. Meanwhile the modern translations, such as the NIV, benefit from another 350 years of archeological findings and so can draw directly from Greek source material originating from much closer to the time of original writing.

As for human scholarship at its peak around 1600AD … well you’re entitled to your own opinion. But I’d contend that all fields of human knowledge have moved on a long way between 1600AD and today.

Ryan is fair enough though … the new translations don’t have the poetry of the KJV. But if I want poetry I’ll read Wordsworth.
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May 4, 2010 2:28pm
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 2:05 pm,

Perhaps you’d like… The Message.

… don’t get me started on the perversion that is The Message. And it ain’t just the lack of poetry.

Here’s a test for anyone:
Select a piece of KJV Bible text. Then try to rewrite it, a paraphrase if you will, while retaining ALL the information and clarity, in LESS words than the original KJV verse.

Ive tried it, and I can’t do it.

For example, try the following:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I think even ‘modern’ English speakers will have no problem understanding any of the above words.

NB The more I read the KJV the more I find myself structuring what I write along similar lines. And as a result, hopefully, what I say is presented with greater clarity.
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May 4, 2010 2:29pm
virtualmark

Put it away … do you really read that passage and believe that Jesus was saying that he expected his followers to literally take up a sword? And particularly against family members? If so then how do you rationalise Jesus’s comments to Peter in the Garden?

Alternatively you could read that passage as Jesus saying that he expected his true followers to abandon their old life and to whole-heartedly leave everything behind and devote themselves to a new life. If necessary to sever any ties – including family ties – that held them back from whole-heartedly living a Christian life. Jesus is saying he didn’t come to continue the status quo, he came to bring a disruptive message that would require believers to make a total break with their past.

An injunction that is difficult to see in today’s Christian church BTW.
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May 4, 2010 2:33pm
Pete George

Ryan, probably for the first time, and I “got” the Message! Written in a way that gets the message across and has a bit of interest and humour in it. I’m not about to convert, but that sort of parable makes a lot more sense than trying to teach with some boring old scripts.

BTW, I don’t like reading Shakespeare much either, generally I have no feel for his style although he can turn a mean phrase at times.
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May 4, 2010 2:35pm
virtualmark

How about “John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”

No begotten, no whosever, no believeth, no archaic use of “everlasting”.

Kris … if you regularly talk in thous, thees, believeths etc then all power to you, press on with the KJV.
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May 4, 2010 2:35pm
Pete George

Here’s a test for anyone:
Select a piece of KJV Bible text. Then try to rewrite it, a paraphrase if you will, while retaining ALL the information and clarity, in LESS words than the original KJV verse.

Ive tried it, and I can’t do it.

For example, try the following:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:16 God so loved the world he gave his only Son, so whoever believed in him would have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 God sent his Son into the world so the world might be saved.
Joh 3:18 If you believe in him you won’t be condemned: if you don’t you’re stuffed.
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May 4, 2010 2:43pm
Kris K

virtualmark 2:35 pm,

How about “John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”

No begotten, no whosever, no believeth, no archaic use of “everlasting”.

Kris … if you regularly talk in thous, thees, believeths etc then all power to you, press on with the KJV.

But you’ve lost meaning, and in a BIG way! And actually make my point perfectly.

KJV: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Your verse contains 26 words, whereas the KJV only 25 – but that’s not the point I want to make, although yours is one word longer.

Do you understand the terminology “only begotten Son” ?

God actually has many ‘sons’: Adam was described as God’s son, as are angels God’s sons – as they are direct creations of God. Christians, too, are described as becoming, or being, sons through adoption as a result of receiving Christ.
So in light of this, when your version says, “one and only Son”, this is actually inaccurate, as God has many sons. But God (the Father) only has ONE “begotten Son”. Christ was ‘begotten’ by the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary and resulting in the virgin birth. If you like; His humanity came about by this method. Not only is the virgin birth uniquely associated with Christ, but it also highlights the fact that Christ had no human father; a requirement for Him, humanly speaking, to be untainted with Adam’s sin. Sin being passed from father to children.

So everything that I’ve just expalined above is encapsulated in the phrase “only begotten Son”.
Do you see what I mean about ‘loss of meaning’, not to mention accuracy?
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May 4, 2010 2:59pm
virtualmark

Kris … I’m not worried about whether it’s 25 or 26 words. I’m looking for clarity and accessibility.

And yes, I understand the theological background of “begotten”. But … do you describe your children as your “begotten children”? No, thought not. And I don’t view that the underlying theological message is compromised in changing from “only begotten” to “one and only”. So no, I don’t believe the modern translations do lose meaning or accuracy.

Meanwhile, try Googling “translation errors in the king james bible”.

I know there’s a large number of diehards who believe the King Jimmy is the only accurate bible. But I don’t know any reputable theologians who agree with them.

You’re entitled to your view that the Message is a perversion. But I have to say that I’ve spent a considerable amount of time with the guy who did that translation – just one guy – and he’d tear you apart on theology and matters of faith. This is someone who reads the Bible in its original texts in all of its their original languages. He has a brain the size of a planet. I trust his take of what they say.
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May 4, 2010 3:06pm
MikeNZ

vitual
interesting point.
but what about the word “Only”
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May 4, 2010 3:11pm
MikeNZ

krazykiwi (4983) Says:
May 4th, 2010 at 11:30 am

absolutely on the button.
and across international borders too!

how many finance companies have gone bust in NZ in the last 3 yrs?
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May 4, 2010 3:14pm
Pete George

Mike, it depends on if you want to be pedantic or if you want to attract and retain the reader’s interest. The palaver may be ok for those that read the bible upside down and back to front, but to convey meaning to modern people it is a big advantage if it is in modern language.

If you want to try and convert Kris then go with what he likes. But if you want someone like me to learn something from it then he Message is a much better bet.
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May 4, 2010 3:15pm
MikeNZ

That isn’t Kris’s point Pete.
if you take the word only out of the sentence it is a very different sentence.

que?
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May 4, 2010 3:17pm
Put it away

Virutalmark
“do you really read that passage and believe that Jesus was saying that he expected his followers to literally take up a sword?

Well that’s pretty much been the favoured interpretation, going by the vast part of church history…

And particularly against family members?

Well that would match with the xtian’s god’s previous pattern of offending. Does Abraham and Isaac ring a bell ? He may have pulled the plug at the last minute, but he certainly expected him to be ready to kill his son, and considered that he’d passed the test by trying to do it.

If so then how do you rationalise Jesus’s comments to Peter in the Garden?

You mean when he chopped the guy’s ear? Now as you know, the bible story has it that it was always jesus’ plan to be seen “qo quietly”. The whole innocent man routine doesn’t really work if your buddy is ready to go down in a blaze of bloody swords does it? Save the swords for later, dude.
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May 4, 2010 3:28pm
Put it away

ahh dammit the italics formatted those quotes wrong and now it won’t let me edit. “don’t have permission” WTF?

“Well that’s pretty much been the favoured interpretation, going by the vast part of church history…” should be mine

“If so then how do you rationalise Jesus’s comments to Peter in the Garden?” should be virtualmark’s
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May 4, 2010 3:30pm
Pete George

Mike, the words that Kris thinks are so important aren’t the original words anyway. Who knows what the precise original meaning was?

If you want to be authentic to a particular time in history then fine. But if you want to be relevant today beyond a few academics then a modernised version would be a huge advantage.

I tried reading the bible when I was a kid but it missed the mark, by a long way. The most useful religious education I got was from Jesus Christ Superstar, I learnt all the words to that and I still enjoy it. I saw it performed live in Wellington early this century and enjoyed it immensely, even though the only seats we could get were up in the Gods. I own the movie version and a filmed stage version on DVD. I’ve never owned a bible.

Whether you believe in the religion or not there are a lot of useful things said in the Bible. If they are said on the right wavelength for people to tune in to.
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May 4, 2010 3:43pm
Fletch

I just posted this on the Dr Who thread, but it’s old so I don’t know who will read it there so…..

I just watched the show last night on Prime with the new doctor. Didn’t think much of him, to be honest, but then again i didn’t think much of Tennant’s first episode either, so the new one might grow on me yet. I didn’t think that much of the red-haired girl either.

I do agree with those who favour Tom baker. He was “my” doctor. Did anyone see the short episode where Tennant meets Peter Davidson’s doctor? It was done for a children’s charity. Well worth seeing those two doctors meet. Watch it HERE on youtube.

I love the bit where the old Doctor looks at the decor of the TARDIS and says, “you’ve changed the wallpaper!”
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May 4, 2010 3:50pm
philu

“..The most useful religious education I got was from Jesus Christ Superstar, I learnt all the words to that and I still enjoy it. I saw it performed live in Wellington early this century and enjoyed it immensely, even though the only seats we could get were up in the Gods. I own the movie version and a filmed stage version on DVD..”

that is just..utterly..utterly..brilliant..!

“.. I own the movie version and a filmed stage version on DVD..”

that is what earns you your second ‘utterly’…

i am almost speechless..

(and i’ll bet nobody has an answer to that curly-one/howler..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 4, 2010 3:55pm
philu

d’ya get yr fine-cuisine guidance from food-in-a-minute..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 4, 2010 3:57pm
virtualmark

Put it away …

“do you really read that passage and believe that Jesus was saying that he expected his followers to literally take up a sword?

Well that’s pretty much been the favoured interpretation, going by the vast part of church history…

Yes I partially agree that the church hasn’t been afraid to endorse violent action. The Crusades comes to mind as a clear example.

But I don’t see any theological support for “taking up a sword”, and I’ve always seen it as the church losing sight of its core message and getting caught up in man’s lust for power and authority.
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May 4, 2010 4:03pm
Pete George

No Phil. JCS is like gourmet for me, it is lyrical and is generally expressed with dollops of feeling. Reading the Bible is as interesting as eating uncooked porridge

Israel in 4BC had no mass communication
Some of his followers haven’t learnt that we have it now. You gotta pick the right medium.
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May 4, 2010 4:10pm
Jack5

New topic for a moment…

Free Trade child slaves! The dark secret of Free Trade chocolate

http://www.antislavery.org/english/press_and_news/news_and_press_releases_2009/250310_child_slavery_and_child_labour_found_on_west_african_fair_trade_cocoa_farms.aspx
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May 4, 2010 4:10pm
Ryan Sproull

Fletch,

Wait until you get to “Time of Angels” and “Flesh and Stone”. I didn’t think that much of the new Doctor until then.
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May 4, 2010 4:25pm
philu

what have you learnt from superheroes..there..p.g..?

do tell..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 4, 2010 4:28pm
Ryan Sproull

VirtualMark,

I see the value in The Message. I’m just a sucker for the old school. Bring back hymns. Loud rock band at the front go home.
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May 4, 2010 4:32pm
Pete George

Arctic amplification has been directly linked to diminishing sea ice in a new study. The degree of amplification was under-stated in IPCC reports.

The rise in Arctic near-surface air temperatures has been almost twice as large as the global average in recent decades.

The findings reinforce suggestions that strong positive ice–temperature feedbacks have emerged in the Arctic, increasing the chances of further rapid warming and sea ice loss.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7293/full/nature09051.html
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May 4, 2010 4:32pm
Pete George

He’s just a man, Phil.
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May 4, 2010 4:33pm
Ryan Sproull

With a man’s courage.
Nothing but a man
Who can never fail.
No one but the pure of heart can find the Golden Grail…
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May 4, 2010 4:36pm
philu

“..He’s just a man, Phil…”

who..?

(excuse me..i’m not up with the finer details of the spiritual-teachings of andrew lloyd webber..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 4, 2010 4:36pm
philu

didn’t he do ‘cats’…?

is that considered ‘important’..also..?

is this something else i have missed..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 4, 2010 4:38pm
Pete George

I didn’t really like Cats, saw it live last year.

But one song is very very good, spine tingling, Memory sung by Elaine Paige I think it’s this version.
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May 4, 2010 4:47pm
wreck1080

Thanks Mr Key, I see petrol prices will be nudging $2 a litre by the end of the year.
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May 4, 2010 5:25pm
dad4justice

What $2 a fing litre just when I bought a fast falkoon ute for me half century!
Grow up Peter.
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May 4, 2010 6:04pm
RightNow

It seems Charles Chauvel is keen to be taken for a sucker next (in the grand tradition of Goff over Neelam Choudary).
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10642684
Mr Chauvel said he had helped Ms Fuller with her initial complaint and offered ongoing support. He said she had contacted him via Facebook yesterday and indicated she would like to take up his offer.

“What she told me is that she is not interested in compensation and never has been,” he told reporters today.

He must be in the very small minority that would believe that for a second. His party has a habit of hitching their wagons to the wrong horses
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May 4, 2010 7:05pm
Steve

Phool,

(zu.oɔ.ɹɐoɥʍ)|ıɥd

¡..||ǝʇ op

¿..b.d..ǝɹǝɥʇ..sǝoɹǝɥɹǝdns ɯoɹɟ ʇuɹɐǝ| noʎ ǝʌɐɥ ʇɐɥʍ

Break a leg, or your neck, idiot
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May 4, 2010 7:46pm
Tauhei Notts

General Debate;
Take out Philu and the Devil Dodgers, and there is not much left.
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May 4, 2010 7:53pm
MikeNZ

Pete George (4862) Says:
May 4th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
I too have enjoyed that show.

I’m surprised that you haven’t read the bible as I took you for a truth seeker.
In of itself it is a book and like all books it can be read as a book and information gathered from it.
Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit however it is read differently, if you are genuinely seeking God.
As he speaks to you out of it to you personaly.
That is why it was written so that those who want to can know Him.

Tauhei
Some of us aren’t devil dodgers, but evictors, we have nothing to fear of devils, providing we stay close to Yeshua. 🙂
When did you last talk to Him?
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May 4, 2010 11:15pm
Tauhei Notts

I know what a Yeshiva is but Yeshua?
You may think from my earlier post that I have erred and strayed from my ways like a lost sheep.
And that there is no health in me.
But thou oh MikeNZ have mercy upon me, a miserable offender.
And MikeNZ, spare thou them who are penitent.
Religion; as I have written before; I am so religious that I backed Resurrection in the Easter Handicap.
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May 5, 2010 9:20pm

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