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May 29, 2010 7:37am by David Farrar

General Debate 28 May 2010

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Nomestradamus

Philu:

Any developments since this exchange?

Bryan Spondre (now there’s a name that’s gone down a plug-hole) asked:

Bryan Spondre aka The Link Whore (225) Says:
July 27th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

@philu – come on phil – show us your credentials for pontificating on successful blogging.
How much money do you make out of whoar.co.nz ?

To which you replied:

philu (8545) Says:
July 27th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

yeah..no..i’m not doing advertising yet..
at the moment i’m working with the americans who have approached me to provide the daily news content for their/our new commercial beast over there..
..when we kick that off..
..i’m gonna get the designers etc to give whoar the bells and whistles..to complement the already great content..
..so bryan..
..it could well be me that rocks up to the mortgagee-sale of that ‘villa in ponsonby’..eh..?

You seemed very upbeat last year. What’s happened?
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May 29, 2010 7:44pm
philu

mmm//!!

as a teetotal pot-head..going dancing with a climate-change denier..who already has a half a bottle of whisky under his belt…@7.44 pm…

(i’ve had better offers.eh..?.)

and..um..!..i really do need to wash my hair tonight..

but thank you..(i think..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 29, 2010 7:45pm
Nomestradamus

Falafulu Fisi:

I think Philu’s reference to “a climate-change denier..who already has a half a bottle of whisky under his belt…@7.44 pm…” was meant to be about you. Have you met Philu before at, say, bloggers’ drinks? Were you at that infamous shitstorm that went down at last year’s event?
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May 29, 2010 7:51pm
krazykiwi

A thought about the Mercury Energy price rise discussed up-thread. We’ve already heard how >90% of Mercury’s power is sourced from hydro and geothermal sources. The implication is that the ETS shouldn’t greatly impact their retail price. But it’s going up, just like the other retailers’ prices.

Now the ‘advertised’ idea behind the ETS is to reduce our emissions (setting aside the science of human caused emissions being statistically irrelevant in the climate debate). So in theory Mercury power should be cheaper than alternatives and people would switch, abandoning nasty carbon-dependent generators & suppliers. This would create a medium-term supply issue, but let’s assume that would work its way out of the supply model.

What will happen in practice is that the government will enjoy increased taxation-by-dividends from it’s state owned energy companies, while the market finds a new, higher price equilibrium.

The ETS is demonstrably a tax masquerading as environmental concern.

Shame on you John Key for your totalitarian ‘leadership’.

Shame on you Nick Smith for your lies and deceit.

Shame on you National MP’s for your spineless duplicity.
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May 29, 2010 7:56pm
Nomestradamus

Falafulu Fisi:

My previous comment was, bizarrely, marked as spam. Anyway, after last year’s experience, I don’t think Philu mixes with right-wing bloggers over drinks.
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May 29, 2010 7:56pm
philu

were you there..nosty..?

you mean that one where i tired of the rich gloating/boasting/jeering how they exploit those who clean their homes for them..?

..not to mention the anti-semitic jokes…

..and i said ..’fuck you..!..i’m not listening to anymore of this shit..’..and walked out..

is that the one you are talking about..?

which of that odious crew were you…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 29, 2010 7:58pm
philu

when will farrar clean ths sewer up..?

and make commenters use their real names…

(‘it won’t happen overnight..but it will happen’…eh..?..)

what will you do then nosty..?

no longer able to snivel from behind a fake name…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 29, 2010 8:05pm
Steve

‘Mr Bethune’s legal team has a two-hour session with him this afternoon. Lawyer Dan Harris says Mr Bethune will be arguing everything he did was legal, because Japan’s whaling is illegal.’

Yep everything he did was legal. Gee I feel so sorry for Bethune. When in Rome do as the Romans do. When on the high sea you do not do what Bethune did. Japan will send him down and the soft cocks in NZ will protest.
BIG FUCKING DEAL he made his bed many times
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May 29, 2010 8:10pm
Steve

Oh the link that I forgot
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=176334
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May 29, 2010 8:14pm
Hurf Durf

Did it happen in international waters?

cos I want the Japs to fuck Bethune’s virgin arsehole then kill every enviroshithead using their security services. I want to see Garfy Hooes CRY WITH FEAR HAHAAHAHAHA
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May 29, 2010 8:14pm
Steve

This blog may be a sewer to some, only because of the crap spouted. Have another bong Phool
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May 29, 2010 8:16pm
Nomestradamus

Phool:

were you there..nosty..?

I’ve enjoyed a social drink with one or two Kiwiblog readers. I wasn’t at that event but read Whaleoil’s account – I must say he has a rather different version of events. One of you is lying.

when will farrar clean ths sewer up..?
…
what will you do then nosty..?
no longer able to snivel from behind a fake name…?

I’d say if DPF gets around to “clean[ing] this sewer up”, you’d be goneski 🙂

Edit: Two of my previous comments appeared briefly but have now disappeared. Has anyone else found their comments “swallowed up” like this?
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May 29, 2010 8:23pm
Steve

F5
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May 29, 2010 8:27pm
Chicken Little

I’m surprised you guys don’t know by now – PHOOL’S FULL OF SHIT

Call him on anything and he’ll start whining as above. I been coming here since 2005, its always been the same.

Once a junkie loser always a junkie loser, he can twist and turn until Side Shows’ cows get home but it doesn’t change reality.
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May 29, 2010 8:43pm
Nomestradamus

Phool:

This is Whaleoil’s account of that infamous bloggers drinks. Really doesn’t seem to square with your 7:58pm account above.

Some quotes:

Well this raised the blood pressure of the aforementioned obnoxious ass who promptly changed the subject to something else while being lambasted for being racist because he didn’t want third world labourers in New Zealand. His next topic for discussion then centred around the minimum wage. Cactus Kate asked why he should sit on the DPB when he could easily get a minimum wage job. His answer was that he had a Masters Degree and thus was over qualified for minimum wage jobs. The howls of elitist and racist were by now being hurled by all across the table at the aforementioned obnoxious ass.

The reaction from aforementioned obnoxious ass was simply spectacular. He stood up called us all racists and anti-semites, forgetting that he had just 5 minutes before been telling how evil the Jewish State was for killing innocent Palestinians. He then stormed off muttering and screaming to resounding applause and high fives from all the rest of us.

Now this is the funny part. We had objectivists, libertarians, fundy Christians, Conservative Christians, atheists, agnostics, homos, dying people, National supporters, Act supporters, Cactus Kate who is a category all on her own and one leftist, green aforementioned obnoxious ass. Everyone but him got on fine with much hilarity for the entire night except for this humourless prick.

Judging by Whaleoil’s account you had a hissy-fit and walked out because you were being ridiculed by everyone there. Are you seriously asking me to believe that Whaleoil and the other attendees (a very diverse bunch by all accounts) are lying?
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May 29, 2010 8:44pm
Nomestradamus

Phool:

*Sigh*
Another comment has disappeared so I’ll try posting without the link. Steve, F5 doesn’t resolve the issue, so I’ll just assume that WordPress is playing up.

Whaleoil’s account of that infamous bloggers drinks really doesn’t seem to square with your 7:58pm account above. Some quotes:

Well this raised the blood pressure of the aforementioned obnoxious ass who promptly changed the subject to something else while being lambasted for being racist because he didn’t want third world labourers in New Zealand. His next topic for discussion then centred around the minimum wage. Cactus Kate asked why he should sit on the DPB when he could easily get a minimum wage job. His answer was that he had a Masters Degree and thus was over qualified for minimum wage jobs. The howls of elitist and racist were by now being hurled by all across the table at the aforementioned obnoxious ass.

The reaction from aforementioned obnoxious ass was simply spectacular. He stood up called us all racists and anti-semites, forgetting that he had just 5 minutes before been telling how evil the Jewish State was for killing innocent Palestinians. He then stormed off muttering and screaming to resounding applause and high fives from all the rest of us.

Now this is the funny part. We had objectivists, libertarians, fundy Christians, Conservative Christians, atheists, agnostics, homos, dying people, National supporters, Act supporters, Cactus Kate who is a category all on her own and one leftist, green aforementioned obnoxious ass. Everyone but him got on fine with much hilarity for the entire night except for this humourless prick.

Judging by Whaleoil’s account you had a hissy-fit and walked out because you were being ridiculed by everyone there. Are you seriously asking me to believe that Whaleoil and the other attendees (a very diverse bunch by all accounts) are lying?
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May 29, 2010 8:46pm
philu

oh look..!..it’s nostalgia/retro-time…!

it’s that silly old prick..chicky..!

wazzup chicky..?

which rock you been hiding under.?..eh…?

come back for some more..?..have you..?

watcha got for us..?

..we cd do with a laff..eh..?

and yr always gd 4 one..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 29, 2010 8:53pm
Hurf Durf

Philip’s always been a joke of a human being.

I feel sorry for his kids.
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May 29, 2010 8:55pm
philu

“..Are you seriously asking me to believe that Whaleoil and the other attendees (a very diverse bunch by all accounts) are lying?..”

rightwingers..?..probalnbly liars..

and i haven’t read blubbys’ acccount…

what exactly were they ‘ridiculing’ me about..?

i mean..it was just totally a exercise in them showing themselves as living up to every caricature of the nasty/selfish/greedy/fuck-everyone-else rightie…eh..?

nah..!..it was the ‘easy’ anti-semitism that had me out the door…

..blubby can make up whatever bullshit he likes..

but that’s what went down…

..it was kinda like some of that gripping reality television..

..where you can’t believe the people on screen are human beings..

(think ‘wife-swap’…)

..they are so cold/callous/uncaring/hating…

..but ultimatly..very fearful/scared/obviously fucked-up people..eh..?

..so..what exactly was it they were ‘ridicuiing’ me about…?..again..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 29, 2010 9:03pm
Nomestradamus

Philu:

..so..what exactly was it they were ‘ridicuiing’ me about…?..again..?

I gather this exchange took place:

His next topic for discussion then centred around the minimum wage. Cactus Kate asked why he should sit on the DPB when he could easily get a minimum wage job. His answer was that he had a Masters Degree and thus was over qualified for minimum wage jobs. The howls of elitist and racist were by now being hurled by all across the table at the aforementioned obnoxious ass.

Did you really say this?

There were apparently “objectivists, libertarians, fundy Christians, Conservative Christians, atheists, agnostics, homos, dying people, National supporters, Act supporters, Cactus Kate who is a category all on her own and one leftist, green aforementioned obnoxious ass [oh wait, that’s apparently you]” in attendance. Why would they all lie about this?

And will you be going to any future bloggers’ drinks events, or has that experience put you off?
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May 29, 2010 9:29pm
philu

no….

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 29, 2010 9:30pm
philu

nosty..i really don’t give a flying fuck..eh..?..what you think..about anything..

and i can’t be bothered ‘playing’ your game..eh..?

you’ll have to do a ‘solo’…

(but that wouldn’t be unusual for you..eh..?..)

(i se you are still obsessively collecting/collating all my comments..

..you are a weird strange little loser/stalker lawyer-person…aren’t you..eh..?

saturday night..eh..?

why don’t you go dancing with full-of-it..?

(tho’.he’s probably finished the bottle of whisky…and passed out by now…)

..you really are a sad fuck..eh..?

why don’t you try and get yrself a life..?

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 29, 2010 9:36pm
philu

“..objectivists, libertarians, fundy Christians, Conservative Christians, atheists, agnostics, homos, dying people, National supporters, Act supporters, Cactus Kate..”

but there were only four-five people…

who was doubling-up…?

..and all multiples..?..and multiple nearly-deceased..?

a bit of ‘exaggeration’ going on there..eh..?

where was uncle tom cobbly..was he there too..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 29, 2010 9:41pm
Hurf Durf

They’re ridiculing you because you’re a stoned fuckwit, philip.

When’s this American concern buying your shit blog, Philip? Surely in the year since you lied out of your face, it would have attracted even more attention, right?
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May 29, 2010 9:45pm
Nomestradamus

Phool:

Wow – looks like I struck a raw nerve!

When Falafulu (is that a real name?) invited you to join him for a night of drinking and dancing, it got me thinking back to the hoo-ha last year after that bloggers drinks. It was a series of allegations (from Whaleoil) that were left hanging.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of your Saturday night 🙂
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May 29, 2010 9:46pm
JiveKitty

Fallacies of the left and right: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/05/the_2020_budget.html
Financial reform in the USA: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw=%5B36899,157778%5D?RS_show_page=0

Thoughts?

Oh, I almost forgot. For the Palin lovers!: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw=%5B3351,10985%5D (The reason for the date is that it was written a few years ago but only posted online recently)
Another more recent piece on Palin by the same guy: http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2010/05/15/i-sarah-palin-goes-redneck/

Thoughts on the critiques therein? And I don’t mean rant about how the media’s out to get her. Are the critiques correct? If not, what is wrong with them? Are they inaccurate? If so, what is inaccurate about them?

As you may have guessed I have been reading a bit of Taibbi’s stuff today.
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May 29, 2010 9:48pm
Hurf Durf

Matt Taibbi is a fucking liar, along with the rest of the scumbag left wing pricks who write for shit mags no one reads like Rolling Tossers.
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May 29, 2010 9:50pm
JiveKitty

@Falafulu: That was a very nice offer to Philu. Michael Jackson had pretty sweet moves before his amount of messed-upness became too apparent.

@Philu: You intimated you didn’t care what Nomestradamus thinks, but then continued responding. The best way to show you don’t care is not to show a revealed preference which implies you do care, but to ignore Nomestradamus.

I believe you, amongst others, have criticised the standard of debate and/or posts by commenters here at Kiwiblog. Getting into an argument with Nomestradamus about some personal matter which Nomestradamus doesn’t have first-hand knowledge of and which involved you some considerable time ago also brings down the standard of debate/posts. Furthermore, it detracts from the apparent intent of Kiwiblog being open to all comments, which even in the General Debate thread is probably be less about flame wars and more about actual issues/events (probably those not covered by DPF at the time of commenting) and possibly even networking.

That said, I am intrigued. Nomestradamus asked three questions: “Did you really say this?

…

And will you be going to any future bloggers’ drinks events, or has that experience put you off?”

You replied with: “no….”

Which question were you responding to?
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May 29, 2010 10:04pm
JiveKitty

@Hurf Durf: Thoughts on the critiques therein? Are the critiques correct? If not, what is wrong with them? Are they inaccurate? If so, what is inaccurate about them? Or are you just going to make comments without substance?
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May 29, 2010 10:07pm
Hurf Durf

I’m too drunk to read his shit tbqh.
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May 29, 2010 10:13pm
Nomestradamus

JiveKitty:

Just to respond to your 10:04pm comment. I’ve read Kiwiblog on and off for quite some time – about 5 years actually. During that time Philu has, at times, engaged in constructive debate. In more recent times, however, I’d say he’s set about promoting his blog. I can’t speak for others but I believe he’s widely seen as a troll. Now, I don’t know if you’re new here or not, but DPF’s previously said something to the effect that Philu gets what he deserves because of his inflammatory posting style. I gather DPF takes that into account before dishing out demerits for comments directed in Philu’s direction.

At least one of your links (the one about financial reform in the USA) doesn’t seem to work. What did you get out of that link in particular?
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May 29, 2010 10:16pm
pentwig

C’mon Liar-bry-phool

You have been called out.

All the lies you have propagated on this (KB) blog

About your blog,(selling to USA interests), about your not having home internet, about your account of the infamous bloggers meeting, etc. to nominate a few.

You are a pathetical teller of untruths.

Fuck off back to the strandred where people of your elk are welcome.
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May 29, 2010 10:20pm
philu

“..where people of your elk ..”

heh…!

“..pathetical..”

aah..!..the involuntary humor of the illiterate/dumb-as-dishwater…eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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May 29, 2010 10:29pm
JiveKitty

@Nomestradamus: It was actually another Taibbi link. I found it quite interesting as it does align somewhat with what I have seen in American politics and nobody comes off well, really. It deals with the recent lobbying around efforts at financial reform in the USA. It’s titled “Wall Street’s War” and should be the first link on the top left at http://www.rollingstone.com/politics

@Hurf Durf: Fair enough. Can’t knock a person for being drunk on a Saturday night if they’re not causing any harm to others than themselves.
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May 29, 2010 10:37pm
Hurf Durf

Fuck yes.
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May 29, 2010 10:46pm
Hurf Durf

I called him out on his anti-semitism based on his pathological obsession with Israel and total lack of attention on other places where Muslims have a hard time like Indonesia and the Horn of Africa and he fucked off quick smart. In spite of all his bluster, the guy’s a coward. I feel sorry for his daughter.

See what I mean? Here Lukey Lukey Lukey. Oh wait, I forgot, you’re a fucking joke.
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May 29, 2010 11:05pm
Hurf Durf

And a prick.
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May 29, 2010 11:12pm
krazykiwi

I’ve read Kiwiblog on and off for quite some time – about 5 years actually. During that time Philu has, at times, engaged in constructive debate. In more recent times, however, I’d say he’s set about promoting his blog. I can’t speak for others but I believe he’s widely seen as a troll.

I’ve been here a similar length of time, perhaps 4.5yrs. I agree with the troll assessment. If DPF does clean up his blog it will be a trollendectomy for sure.
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May 29, 2010 11:18pm
Nomestradamus

JiveKitty:

To be honest, I’m really not across the full detail of the financial reform. I’ve skim-read the article you mentioned; I don’t think its polemical style is particularly helpful in sorting out the issues (why shouldn’t investment banks, like anyone else, make submissions on the proposed legislative content?), but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and read it more fully tomorrow.

As an aside, I don’t understand this editorial note at the end:

This article originally appeared in RS 1106 from June 10, 2010.

Whoops – sounds like a bit of a future-dating cock-up there…

Anyway, I recently read the following commentary (subscription only, so I’ll reproduce it) that may interest you:

I watched some of the Congressional hearings with Goldman Sachs this week and, as I wrote at the time, they were speaking Martian and the senators were speaking another language called Politics, so real communication was minimal.

But since then I’ve been reflecting on what it all means. They spent six hours talking at cross purposes about the morality of Goldman shorting the market while selling securities to clients. That’s also the essence of the SEC’s civil charge against the firm over one particular mortgage security: that it was created in conjunction with a hedge fund operator who was simultaneously shorting the mortgages, and the buyers weren’t told that.

Goldman’s defence of the fact that it was short the market in 2007 (that is, betting it would fall) even though it was still putting on a positive face for clients it was selling stuff to, is that it was a “market maker”. CEO Lloyd Blankfein kept saying that, as did his other executives.

The politicians simply couldn’t grasp this, and nor could most ordinary people. The senators tried to get Goldman to concede that it was morally wrong to bet against securities they were presenting to clients as good investments, but they got nowhere.

Blankfein patiently explained that “there’s been a change in the sociology of the business in the last 10 to 15 years”. Somewhere along the line big clients stopped asking investment banks for good advice and started to seek them out only to set up deals for them, merely to underwrite the transactions and be on the other side of them.

That meant Goldman and other investment banks changed from private partnerships to listed companies to get access to the capital needed to do these deals and it also, according to them, removed the notion of morality and fiduciary duty from their work. Goldman’s only job was to provide an efficient market service to clients, not to advise. Caveat emptor.

It was a remarkable insight into the reason behind the moral decay of Wall Street and came as a deep shock to the politicians, which is why they’re now talking about introducing a statutory fiduciary duty for investment banks as part of the regulatory response to the GFC.

As a lawyer myself, I’m intrigued to know how the proposed statutory fiduciary duty would operate in practice, as it’d effectively cut across the “market maker” concept (ie an investment bank couldn’t have conflicting duties to countertparties on both sides of a particular transaction).

Anyway, seeing as you’ve read the article, do you have any thoughts?
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May 29, 2010 11:19pm
krazykiwi

Oh dear. I see the Lib Democrat MP David Laws (Chief Secretary to the Treasury) is in a spot of bother.

Seems he’s been keeping a young James Lundy (Political Activist), flush with lots of rental income from the public purse. About £40,000 to be more precise.

Apparently Lundy was the landlord and the rent boy – both on long term leases.
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May 29, 2010 11:42pm
Manolo

“The ETS is demonstrably a tax masquerading as environmental concern.”

It has been my thesis from day one. So much for a government elected under the promise to reduce taxes. We know now it was all a big lie, a con artist doing a con job on New Zealand.

Shame on Key, the National Party and their staunch sycophants and spin doctors.
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May 30, 2010 6:04am
Michael

Well done to the All Whites, a remarkable win beating Serbia! And even better was keeping Serbia scoreless. This proves that the All Whites deserve their place at the World Cup and will not be easy beats like everyone was predicting.

I wonder if Slovakia and Paraguay are not so sure about drawing into Pool F with Italy and NZ anymore.
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May 30, 2010 8:47am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Lib Democrat MP David Laws has now resigned. That’s how fast scandal is dealt with these days in the UK. You can tell we no longer have a Labour government in power.
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May 30, 2010 9:11am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Talking of Labour government out of power in the UK, isn’t it great that Gordon Brown now has lots of free time on his hands to sulk about never receiving the vote of the people?
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May 30, 2010 9:13am
starboard

The wife of prominent blogger Whale Oil says mental health problems are driving his internet behaviour – which has included a campaign to break suppression orders and insult people online.

Juana Atkins also says husband Cameron Slater has “no thought of the consequences for himself or others or indeed his family” when he makes his online attacks.

The emotional outburst was sparked by the couple’s forced sale of their East Auckland family home. The house was sold after Slater’s insurance payments for depression were canned by insurer Fidelity Life.

“The house is gone, there is nothing left,” Slater wrote under the persona Whale Oil on his Gotcha blog.

…Ouch !..
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May 30, 2010 9:16am
Kris K

krazykiwi (May 29th, 2010 at 11:42 pm),

Oh dear. I see the Lib Democrat MP David Laws (Chief Secretary to the Treasury) is in a spot of bother.

Seems he’s been keeping a young James Lundy (Political Activist), flush with lots of rental income from the public purse. About £40,000 to be more precise.

Apparently Lundy was the landlord and the rent boy – both on long term leases.

Another sodomite left wing MP caught with his hand in the cooky jar.
One must really question the morality of the left on MANY counts. Why are these people allowed into positions of power and influence?

(Yeah, go on, call me ‘homophobic’ – you know you want to)
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May 30, 2010 10:09am
big bruv

Kris

You’re not for real are you?

In 2010 nobody could be that small minded, I have long suspected that you are a left wing troll who has a huge problem with religion.
Why not leave those who want to worship in peace, IMHO they are barking mad but at least I do not see any need to abuse them (unless they start to tell me how to live my life)

Seriously Kris, the joke is wearing a little thin.
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May 30, 2010 10:16am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

David Laws was to the right of his party and a former banker.

The Liberal Democrats were already getting flakey with Vince Cable resigning as Deputy Leader. There might be early elections yet in which the Conservatives will sweep the board. Funny if it happens before Labour elect a new leader.
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May 30, 2010 10:33am
JiveKitty

@Nomestradamus: Re: the Taibbi article. I know polemics are often not helpful, but I understand why he is like that. With the state of political discourse as it is, the primary way to get attention is to be polemical and I don’t mind it in an opinion piece – as his was – particularly as he is typically pretty good with the facts (he did make a mistake with the political alignment of a senator, I believe, but political alignment was not relevant to the points he was making). He’s also been around a while and I think he is pretty disillusioned. What I got from it was not that he was against lobbying in and of itself (personally I think lobbying can serve a useful function provided those in government realise that lobbyists are not their only constituents and will typically present a heavily slanted idea of what should happen in order to benefit their interests), and not that he was for or against one party or the other. Neither were looked upon fondly.

I felt he was making similar points, or points which fit in with what I’m told are the theories of Quigley and Tainter (discussed by John Robb here: http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2010/04/avoiding-collapse.html) In the context of what Taibbi was saying, government deals in terms of its own entrenched interests and perpetuation with as little change as possible instead of fulfilling its ostensible functions. However, it has also become increasingly complex in such a manner as to make significant change extremely difficult.

I agree with you on the “market maker” concept. I also feel that informational asymmetries are a huge problem in markets, particularly financial.
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May 30, 2010 11:17am
Kris K

Viking2 (May 29th, 2010 at 5:53 pm),

Kris k; hell no. left there in 1973 for warmer climes. If you want to email me at Vikingonmars@gmail.com so we can converse privately that would be best.

V2, have just flicked you an email [KrisKWgtn@gmail].

Look forward to hearing from you.
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May 30, 2010 11:23am

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