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May 12, 2010 10:45am by David Farrar

General Debate 12 May 2010

Had outages today! Not with Kiwiblog, but Vodafone which meant I could not connect to Kiwiblog.

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General Debate

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Kris K

Ryan Sproull 1:29 pm,

She’s talking mainly about Muslim extremists. The only time she’s not, she’s talking about what life was like growing up in Somalia, and I don’t think that environment is analogous to Kiwi Muslims.

Any comment on your claim that you only want changes of hearts and minds, not through legislation, yet have a problem with legalised gay marriage? (Third time. Today, at least. A few times yesterday too.)

You obviously didn’t listen very well to what she (Ayaan Hirsi Ali) said. I have taken the trouble of transcribing her from about three minutes into the video up to about four and a half minutes:

I grew up as a Muslim, and growing up as a Muslim I learned you don’t criticise Allah, the Koran, or the Prophet Mohammed and you should participate in condemning, and eventually killing anybody who does. So that is just what the religion tells us; that’s what Scripture tells us – there are some people who want to act on it, and there are some people who don’t. The majority of Muslims do not want to act on the Scripture, but they are silent when fellow Muslims do.

And you don’t see death threats from Jews when Moses is depicted in an unbecoming position, and you don’t see threats from Christians when Jesus Christ is put in a satire position … the South Park episode of last weekend … it wasn’t just witty, but it addressed an essential piece … in the times that we are living there is one group of people, one religion [Islam] that is claiming to be above criticism. And I hope that in the aftermath of this that we discuss that.

So you really have no issues with that, Ryan?

Just because some Muslims may not act on some offences doesn’t imply that will automatically be the case should the Muslim population greatly increase in New Zealand from what it is currently. Once again I cite examples such as Europe and the UK where they are of a much higher proportion, and where we see increasing levels of intolerance of Muslims against non-Muslims.
Once again; my Muslim ‘critical mass’ analogy.
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May 14, 2010 3:31pm
Ryan Sproull

Those are two separate parts of the interview, Kris. The first part is a description of her growing up in Somalia, as I said, and I think things are different for Kiwi Muslims.

In the second part, she’s referring to the Islamic extremists making threats against Parker and Stone, and I have made it clear I’m not talking about Islamic extremists, I’m talking about moderate mainstream Muslims – the great majority who do not make any such threats or take any such actions.

Your Muslim “critical mass” analogy doesn’t hold either. The truth is, if one in every 10,000 people calling themselves Muslim is inclined towards criminal actions in the name of his or her religion, then once you have 100,000 Muslims in New Zealand, you’ll have 10 nutter Muslims. That’s just statistical probability. “Critical mass” implies that at some tipping point, huge numbers of Muslims will suddenly turn around and attack. The vast numbers of Muslims not committing crimes in the UK and Europe are examples of the statistical approach holding up.

I know the National Front in New Zealand is less offensive than Muslim extremists, but it’s an example of how when you have enough Christians in one place, there will be a small number of nutters ticking off “Christian” on the census and doing absurd shit in the name of their religion. It’s not that there’s a critical mass of Christians and suddenly a bunch turn racist. It’s just statistics. Get enough people and the disturbing tiny fractions become visible.

And…

Any comment on your claim that you only want changes of hearts and minds, not through legislation, yet have a problem with legalised gay marriage? (Third time. Today, at least. A few times yesterday too. The last time was actually only the second time today. Now it’s three times today.)
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May 14, 2010 3:45pm
RightNow

Beer O’Clock boys, take a break
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May 14, 2010 3:50pm
Ryan Sproull

Half an hour left to go, RN ; )
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May 14, 2010 3:57pm

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