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April 14, 2010 7:53pm by David Farrar

Priest Off

This piss take ad is a couple of years old but very topical again.

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kiwitoffee

As I suggested when you originally posted this item, it’s not very funny.
File under ‘Boring’, ‘Predictable’ ‘Shallow’.
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April 14, 2010 8:10pm
RKBee

Now I know why they now have atheist churches… a church you can trust.
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April 14, 2010 8:33pm
Steve

Oh shit, here we go.
Devildodgers will go for this like a bull at a gate. How long before it gets twisted to other faith?
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April 14, 2010 8:41pm
vibenna

Oh, get with teh program. It’s all the fault of homosexuals. Yes, the Vatican Secretary of State has revealed the truth. Apparently, there is no problem until those filthy homosexuals conceal the crime from the police, move the abuser to another parish, delay dealing with it at the Vatican for years, and then protect the worst abusers (like Macial and Groer) from justice by blocking internal investigation and punishment. Those pesky homos!

Oh, hang on …..
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April 14, 2010 8:46pm
Steve

You get moved around to cover it up and nobody knows?
Welcome to the Internet Vatican City
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April 14, 2010 8:54pm
Shunda barunda

Ha!
A bit like “Clarkson island”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMuO-8S_0Wg

“I sprays em wiff de-gay”
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April 14, 2010 9:10pm
RKBee

I bet Big Bruv would like a can of PHIL-U- OFF.
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April 14, 2010 9:16pm
Fletch

More stuff like this just confirms to me that I am in the right Church –

“If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world, as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times, as Our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because he called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which amid the confusion of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly, it is other-worldly. Since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself.”
-Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen (1895-1979)
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April 14, 2010 10:09pm
vibenna

Fletch – under that definition, wouldn’t the Nazi’s be the perfect church ? Or maybe Stalin? Pol Pot would give them a run for their money too ? Or the Rwandan genocides ? Or perhaps Mao’s cultural revolution was the perfect example of a movement that was hated, behind the times, ignorant, sneered at, and rejected for claiming infallibility.

In fact it is just incoherent twaddle. I learnt in stage one logic that if you assume two contradictory premises, you can prove derive a formal proof of anything. Your quote is a prime example – garbage in, garbage out.
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April 14, 2010 10:25pm
Deborah

Fletch – you are using Jesus to defend raping children.
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April 14, 2010 10:27pm
burt

Deborah

It’s all in there Deborah, the bible can justify a lot of behaviours. Buying and selling slaves, stoning woman, killing your daughter even. What’s a few young boys between friends eh, it’s simply not true because this denigration of the Church is the work of Satan according to Fletch.
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April 14, 2010 10:39pm
malcolm

Fletch – more quoting out of context. Do you really think the Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen was referring to animosity directed at the church in response to their aiding and abetting of sexual abuse?
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April 14, 2010 10:40pm
MikeNZ

Fletch
You are the church me old son.
Not an organisation nor a place but a group of people.
marked for one thing, their heart allegiance to Jesus.
In fact if you are a Roman catholic (or any other denom) before you are a Christian
(and a disciple of Jesus) you are in idolatry.
You know what that means don’t you?
Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go straight to Jail 🙂
sorry mate but if I truly love you and want the very best for you I must tell the truth, yes?
Your brother Mike
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April 14, 2010 10:40pm
Guy Fawkes

There was a Catholic Priest accused of fiddling with the choirboys in the little market town of Cottingham, just outside of Hull.

I know the church quite well, and I had had occasion to hear them sing.

And frankly they deserved to be fucked.
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April 14, 2010 11:25pm
Biomag83

I see a bunch of Rabbi in New York were investigated by the police for abuse of Children. Its not just a Catholic problem
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April 15, 2010 12:34am
Redbaiter

http://spectator.org/archives/2010/04/13/the-curious-incident-at-the-ne/print

” New York Times national correspondent Richard Berke: “…literally three-quarters of the people deciding what’s on the front page are not-so-closeted homosexuals.” “
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April 15, 2010 1:01am
kisekiman

I’m sure there are some atheist kiddy fiddlers out there as well.
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April 15, 2010 1:53am
Haiku Dave

ah, the conundrum
of paedo priests has been solved
for you – blame the fags!

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/gay-priests-have-sex-with-men%2c-say-experts-201004142638/
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April 15, 2010 3:10am
BlairM

You’re all going to HELL Catholics! LOL. Only good Baptists go to heaven 😉

Seriously though, this has nothing to do with the Christian faith, and everything to do with an organisation and how it is run. The Pope should not be covering up kiddy-fiddling priests, and that is the charge against him.

I don’t, for the life of me, understand why it is compulsory for Catholic priests to be celibate. Orthodox priests were, and still are, not required to be celibate, and there is nothing in the Bible to support it. So why put the church in a situation where a disproportionate amount of men applying for the priesthood are those with an “odd” sexuality?
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April 15, 2010 4:28am
KiwiGreg

I thought “mom” was hot.
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April 15, 2010 7:43am
Angus

Of all of the claims (not just for sexual abuse, but inappropriate disciplinary methods), 60% were based on homosexual attractions to post-pubescent boys – ephebophilia. Blair’s solution would be a good one it seems.
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April 15, 2010 7:47am
Murray

Yes David is is quite old. Leads me to ask if you atre actually pushing the Catholic churches troubles as a saleable item like a few others. Not reporting but creating news.

Absolutlly true you can post whatever you like. I’m just wondering why you like to cover this line so much.
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April 15, 2010 8:21am
krazykiwi

What BlairM said
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April 15, 2010 8:42am
dime

guy fawkes – HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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April 15, 2010 9:11am
Fletch

1. I was not using Jesus to defend raping children. The abuse of children is a terrible thing and has been admitted by the Church and largely corrected. I was referring to the present ‘scandal’ (of which there is none) because ..

2. There is no ‘cover-up’. In fact it is a non-story as I have posted about before. The priest in question in the 1980s wanted to be dispensed from his vows of celibacy (in fact, a removal of restraint) and the Church took some time in doing so, which, for a man having been accused of abuse of children was a good thing. The office of Benedict in the 1980s had nothing to do with abuse cases until 2001. The dispensing of vows is an entirely different affair. His Bishop has the authority to remove him from active ministry and had done so. He had even been reported to the authorities and had been on probation. There is no need to write to Rome in that case.

3. Celibacy is not the cause of priestly abuse. Try using that argument in the secular world and you will get laughed out of town. See how the argument works if you apply it to a teacher accused of the same thing. “Oh, if only he was married he wouldn’t have done such a thing”. Well, teachers are free to marry, and some of them are married; in fact, the priest I was talking about in (2) received dispensation from his vows, got married, and abused children again in 2002, so how is marriage a “cure”? Most children are abused by fathers, step-fathers, uncles, etc who do not have to be celibate.
Go and watch the movie The Woodsman with Kevin Bacon to see how a man struggles with this problem, even though he has a girlfriend and is hardly celibate.

4. MikeNZ, I do appreciate your input, etc, but I guess we are from different churches or have different ideas about church. Jesus did say to Peter, “you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it”. Catholics do take this scripture to heart.
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April 15, 2010 9:21am
BlairM

Celibacy is not the cause of priestly abuse. Try using that argument in the secular world and you will get laughed out of town. See how the argument works if you apply it to a teacher accused of the same thing. “Oh, if only he was married he wouldn’t have done such a thing”. Well, teachers are free to marry, and some of them are married; in fact, the priest I was talking about in (2) received dispensation from his vows, got married, and abused children again in 2002, so how is marriage a “cure”? Most children are abused by fathers, step-fathers, uncles, etc who do not have to be celibate.

I never said it was the cause. My point was that some Catholic men who struggle with issues of love, relationships and sexuality often see the Priesthood – because of its stipulation of celibacy – as an “easy escape” from their problems. The celibacy requirement tailor-makes the role for such men. They think by becoming a priest, they can “pray the gay away”. Instead, they find themselves in a position of authority with easy access to vulnerable young people with whom they can act out. I believe that the number of paedophiles who become priests is disproportionate for that reason. Of course there is an abundance of married paedophiles too, but if you make a silly rule that’s hard to keep, you’re always going to have problems.
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April 15, 2010 10:04am
cha

Seriously though, this has nothing to do with the Christian faith, and everything to do with an organisation and how it is run. The Pope should not be covering up kiddy-fiddling priests, and that is the charge against him.

On the money BlairM , now watch how Destiny closes ranks to protect the organisation, 19 New Plymouth members have upped stakes and moved to Auckland, at the expense of the victims.
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April 15, 2010 10:20am
Lucia Maria

Blair,

My point was that some Catholic men who struggle with issues of love, relationships and sexuality often see the Priesthood – because of its stipulation of celibacy – as an “easy escape” from their problems.

You are quite likely right.

However, these men are seriously flawed to begin with and should never have been allowed to become priests in the first place.

In fact, the rules have tightened up dramatically in the last few years to prevent homosexual men from studying for the priesthood. Not sure how strictly the rules are being followed, though. Especially in countries that actively distance themselves from following the rules of Rome (such as NZ).
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April 15, 2010 10:50am
Lucia Maria

I came across a cool quote today:

Fire, darkness, worm, hell, correspond to passions–lusts of all kinds, the all-embracing darkness of ignorance, the unquenchable thirst for sensual pleasures…foretastes of the torments of hell, even now begin to torture sinners.
– St. Gregory of Sinai
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April 15, 2010 10:54am
RRM

ROFLMAO

Superb video!

I wonder if they’ll try to ban it like South Park?
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April 15, 2010 11:08am
MT_Tinman

Well I laughed out loud.
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April 15, 2010 11:15am
Pete George

Lucia Maria, I don’t think that quote is cool at all, I think it is gross. Hellfire and brimstone for sensual pleasures? Or am I reading that wrong.

Deliberately depriving oneself of any pleasures will result in a unbalanced mind. Why have nuns and priests hurt and abused children? Taking their frustration out on them because they can’t have their own?

Being a celibate priest or nun is more unnatural than being homosexual, it involves trying to repress one of human’s strongest and most basic urges.

And from what you say the church is confused between people with homosexual tendencies and people who will carry out acts of pedophilia.
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April 15, 2010 11:28am
Biomag83

Ive never seen a person that has such a chip on their shoulder regarding the Catholic Faith than you do David.
Whats that about?
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April 15, 2010 11:33am
Fletch

A better video – The “Dawkins Edition” Hitler video 😀

It should be noted (as is mentioned in the video) that Dawkins doesn’t really seem to think that child abuse is the worst crime in the world, or hasn’t in the past.

Here is what Dawkins wrote in ‘The God Delusion’ in 2006:

“Priestly abuse of children is nowadays taken to mean sexual abuse, and I feel obliged, at the outset, to get the whole matter of sexual abuse into proportion and out of the way. Others have noted that we live in a time of hysteria about pedophilia, a mob psychology that calls to mind the Salem witch-hunts of 1692… All three of the boarding schools I attended employed teachers whose affections for small boys overstepped the bounds of propriety. That was indeed reprehensible. Nevertheless, if, fifty years on, they had been hounded by vigilantes or lawyers as no better than child murderers, I should have felt obliged to come to their defense, even as the victim of one of them (an embarrassing but otherwise harmless experience).

“The Roman Catholic Church has borne a heavy share of such retrospective opprobrium. For all sorts of reasons I dislike the Roman Catholic Church. But I dislike unfairness even more, and I can’t help wondering whether this one institution has been unfairly demonized over the issue, especially in Ireland and America… We should be aware of the remarkable power of the mind to concoct false memories, especially when abetted by unscrupulous therapists and mercenary lawyers. The psychologist Elizabeth Loftus has shown great courage, in the face of spiteful vested interests, in demonstrating how easy it is for people to concoct memories that are entirely false but which seem, to the victim, every bit as real as true memories. This is so counter-intuitive that juries are easily swayed by sincere but false testimony from witnesses.

(The God Delusion, pp. 315-16)

My, but he has changed his tune now, hasn’t he….Now he is the one doing the “demonizing”
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April 15, 2010 11:45am
RRM

Cool story Fletch.

Priest Off is still funny sh!t though.
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April 15, 2010 11:54am
Lucia Maria

Pete,

Lucia Maria, I don’t think that quote is cool at all, I think it is gross. Hellfire and brimstone for sensual pleasures? Or am I reading that wrong.

Being tormented with the overwhelming desire for sensual pleasures is a foretaste of Hell. Those who are not destined for Hell are not constantly tormented this way. However, it’s not too late to change your path.

Deliberately depriving oneself of any pleasures will result in a unbalanced mind.

Or a very strong will, that is unmoved by the desires of the body.

Why have nuns and priests hurt and abused children? Taking their frustration out on them because they can’t have their own?

Probably because the children were accessible and powerless. Bullies tend to go for those that are weaker than them, not those that are stronger and can fight back.

Being a celibate priest or nun is more unnatural than being homosexual, it involves trying to repress one of human’s strongest and most basic urges.

It is a strong urge to have sex. However it is one that can be overcome, not purely by one’s own strength, but by relying on God. Everyone is tempted, however in the prayer Jesus taught his disciples, we should ask not to be tested beyond our strength.

Are you married, Pete?

And from what you say the church is confused between people with homosexual tendencies and people who will carry out acts of pedophilia.

No. Not confused. Pedophilies go for pre-pubescent children (a small percentage of the sex abuse cases), while as most of the sexual abuse by priests has been against boys in their teenaged years. In other words, man-boy sex abuse.
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April 15, 2010 12:10pm
Manolo

“Being tormented with the overwhelming desire for sensual pleasures is a foretaste of Hell. Those who are not destined for Hell are not constantly tormented this way.”

You must be kidding, mustnt’ you? What if your dreaded Hell doesn’t exist at all?
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April 15, 2010 12:16pm
Lucia Maria

Manolo,

If Hell doesn’t exist, then we all turn into worm food when we die and it doesn’t matter what we do while we are alive.
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April 15, 2010 12:20pm
dave

Lucia,

didnt the pope ( JPII) say that hell was not a literal place but a state of being? Or dont you believe it is a literal place now either…
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April 15, 2010 12:34pm
Manolo

“If Hell doesn’t exist, then we all turn into worm food when we die and it doesn’t matter what we do while we are alive.”

The first part of the above paragraph (we all turn into..) is 100% correct. The second (it doesn’t matter..) is not.
It does matter how we live and what we do in life, but you live your existence guided by ethical principles, not a collection of Middle-Eastern myths (Christianity, Islamism, etc) or any sort of religious belief.

Each one to his/her own, so if you’re happy to go with mythology, please be my guest.
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April 15, 2010 12:36pm
Lucia Maria

Dave,

Hell is a state of being. A soul that has chosen Hell when they die will be tormented no matter where they are. But it is also a place, as the original Italian indicates.

Here is what JPII said (translated to English):

3. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather* than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell'” (n. 1033).

“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.

*[Note: The original Italian says, “(Più che) More than a place, hell indicates…” This suggests correctly that although hell is not essentially “a place,” rather the definitive loss of God, confinement is included. Thus, after the general resurrection the bodies of the damned, being bodies not spirits, must be in “some place,” in which they will receive the punishment of fire.]
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April 15, 2010 12:44pm
vibenna

Dave, Lucia, you are on the wrong track. After death, the soul goes to the Halls of Mandos. Don’t you know anything?
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April 15, 2010 12:50pm
RRM

Wasn’t DPF going to do a “religious debate” thread, at one stage, so that all this stuff about what the bible says can be kept in one place instead of cluttering up the more interesting topics?
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April 15, 2010 12:50pm
Lucia Maria

Manolo,

WHY does it matter what we do if this life is all there is?

Wouldn’t it be better to live it up to the full, make the most of it, no matter who you hurt, as long as it doesn’t make you feel guilty?
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April 15, 2010 12:52pm
Lucia Maria

Maybe DPF needs to stop posting on religious topics, even in jest, so that those of us who would rather not be here, don’t have to keep coming in to defend the faith.
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April 15, 2010 12:54pm
Fletch

RRM, you could say that DPF started it with his posting of the video; what – he didn’t expect any comment on it by the religious among us?
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April 15, 2010 12:54pm
RRM

“Wouldn’t it be better to live it up to the full, make the most of it, no matter who you hurt, as long as it doesn’t make you feel guilty?”

You’ve just described one style of entrepreneurship that’s quite popular in New Zealand. Congratulations!
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April 15, 2010 12:55pm
krazykiwi

RRM – I though that described most politicians (of all shades) quite well.
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April 15, 2010 12:58pm
RRM

I don’t see pervert Priests molesting innocent children as a religious issue. It is a criminal issue. What the Bible says is irrelevant.

Generalizations about how some people sometimes conjure up some false memories, and therefore every single allegation is probably false and it’s all a beat-up is not very helpful either.

KK – Touche! 😀 LOL
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April 15, 2010 1:00pm
Danyl Mclauchlan

WHY does it matter what we do if this life is all there is?

Ah, Lucia – you remind me of myself when I was ten.
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April 15, 2010 1:06pm
Lucia Maria

Hey Danyl,

You have it all figured out now that you’re 30, huh?
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April 15, 2010 1:08pm
Shunda barunda

“Ah, Lucia – you remind me of myself when I was ten.”

Danyl, you once described yourself as “petty” ,I believe on your blog.
If you identify a trait in yourself that could be considered a character flaw, yet seem to lack any motivation to correct it, aren’t you proving Lucia correct?
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April 15, 2010 1:17pm
enough rope

Ah, Lucia – you remind me of myself when I was ten.

You had a thing for child molesters when you were ten eh? Just as well you never told, otherwise you’d be in hell now.
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April 15, 2010 1:25pm
RRM

Hey, I know, let’s try playing the man instead of the ball!
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April 15, 2010 1:26pm
Lucia Maria

Vibena,

Dave, Lucia, you are on the wrong track. After death, the soul goes to the Halls of Mandos. Don’t you know anything?>

Did you know that Tolkien was Catholic?
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April 15, 2010 1:31pm
Pete George

I do choose to be consumed by fire when I die, it’s sometimes called cremation. Then my ashes will be worm or plant food. And continue the cycle of life.

Wouldn’t it be better to live it up to the full, make the most of it, no matter who you hurt, as long as it doesn’t make you feel guilty?

Some do think that is “better”, but usually it backfires while they are still alive.

I think it is better to make the most of my life, and a key part of that is to do it with others (humans generally are social animals) which means considering the well being of others and co-operating with them.
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April 15, 2010 2:34pm
Pete George

RRM, if you don’t want your screen cluttered with all this bible stuff try spraying it with some Priest Off.
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April 15, 2010 2:37pm
Lucia Maria

Pete,

Thanks for that comment.

So, are you married?
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April 15, 2010 6:10pm
BlairM

I believe hell is an entirely real state of eternal torment for damned souls. I refuse to believe that Pol Pot could have inflicted the misery he did, only to die peacefully in his sleep, and have that be his final end.

Fortunately I also believe in the saving grace of God through Jesus. Hell is not something I worry about too much. If you believe it exists, you’re about halfway to not going there.
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April 16, 2010 8:14am
Pete George

Yes, Lucia Maria, I’m married.

In theory I see no real need for marriage. I think two people should be able to make a strong commitment to each other without it. But in practice I think getting married has something special about it. Maybe it is more of public show of commitment than a private promise, but I find it hard to explain.
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April 16, 2010 8:40am
Lucia Maria

Pete,

Right then.

As a married man, you, I assume, would constantly repress any feelings of lust towards women that are not your wife that might come up. The more you do this, the better you’d get at avoiding situations where you may feel lustful thoughts.

While this would be considered unnatural, it would also be necessary in order to keep yourself married. Otherwise, indulging in lustful thoughts, allowing yourself to get tempted would be destructive over the long term.

Human beings are capable of this sort of self-restraint, because we are more than just animals.

Some human beings are capable of turning fidelity that would normally be focused on one other person, towards God instead. Not everyone can do this, or would want to do this.

While for you, it would be extremely unnatural, it’s merely on the continuum of what you need to do to remain faithful to your wife.

When you say that being celibate is more unnatural than homosexuality, what you are really saying is that if we acted like animals and showed no restrain when we wanted to have sex, then that would be far more natural than say, as a married man, restricting yourself to your wife alone.

Either it’s natural to be restrained, as a human being, or it’s natural to be a sex-bunny with an energiser battery that doesn’t turn off.

Being a celibate priest or nun is more unnatural than being homosexual, it involves trying to repress one of human’s strongest and most basic urges.
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April 16, 2010 12:07pm
Pete George

I actually find it easy to be monogamous, that amply satisfies my “lust”. Some restraint is necessary even within a relationship, both partners are not always in the same mood at the same time. But it is restraint in the knowledge that you will most likely soon be satisfied.

Past experience, past relationship that had fizzled out, without my sexual needs being met, thoughts do wander around. I can understand why some peoples wanderings become physical – but not for me. Even after separation I was happy to wait until I had found the right partner – I knew I could have semi-satisfied my sexual needs short term but I was prepared to put more priority on the longer term, and I’m pleased that I did.

And another thing – I have children, and also now grandchildren, that helps satisfy my need to procreate, I am satisfied that I have done my bit.

This is all hugely different to someone committing themselves to attempted self restraint for the rest of their life, without leaving any offspring.
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April 16, 2010 12:18pm
MrTips

Ah, Lucia – you remind me of myself when I was ten.

Heh. Just last week eh Danyl?

Run along now and suck up to Farrar as you do.
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April 17, 2010 9:33am
enough rope

Run along now and suck up to Farrar as you do.

Farrar’s not a priest, you rosary-gnawing twerp.
That’ll cost you three Hail Marys, a perfect act of contrition, and a slow jog around the church with your underpants on your head.
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April 17, 2010 7:38pm

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Links

Justice in Brazil
No Right Turn
Peter Williams: Te Pati Maori End Game
Breaking Views
"Seymour is only doing openly what M?ori nationalists and their Pakeha allies have been doing, quietly for the past 50 years."
Not PC
Do the KCs believe in democracy
Utopia
More young offenders will get boot camp, bus drivers will get some protection – and there’s relief for southern farmers
Point of Order
Your Cheatin’ Ballot III: Pennsylvania Right Now
No Minister
Sowell says
Hompaddock
New Zealand government urged to back ICC arrest warrants for Israeli leaders without equivocation
The Daily Blog
Open mike 22/11/2024
The Standard
The transgender agenda sunk Kamala
Bob McCoskrie's McBlog
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT
No Punches Pulled (Bob Jones)
What does “reciprocity” mean in New Zealand laws?
Croaking Cassandra
A Day of Reckoning
NZCPR
Media Link: “A View from Afar” on the US elections.
Kiwipolitico
This will not end well
Offsetting Behaviour
Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
Stats Chat
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

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