General Debate 6 April 2010

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LeftRightOut

Why is NZ remaining complicit in propping up the Afghanistan Kleptocracy?

Karzai will simply hand the country back to the taleban if he doesn’t get his own way.

Time to stop wasting money on this drug peddling thief.

Jakarta is coming.
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April 6, 2010 8:24am
Banana Llama

Because we are part of a hegemony?
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April 6, 2010 8:33am
Grant Michael McKenna

Jakarta? If LRO is referring to Al-Qaeda’s Indonesian links, then surely that is a rationale for fighting them in Afghanistan?
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April 6, 2010 8:34am
MikeNZ

LRO
This is a conundrum isn’t it?
In the name of democracy ( or was it for the oil?) we helped the Iraqis set up an Islamic constitution, that clearly discriminates against all other Iraqis who aren’t Muslim.
As a result they are fleeing the country, so in effect we are helping set up an apartheid state.
No doubt we’ll be doing the same in Afghanistan too.

Like we helped in Bosnia and are assisting the UN with the Palestinians in Gaza and if Hamas get their way in the West bank also.
Good old clean green NZ helps fund all this by paying for “other stuff” so freeing up monies for weapons and explosives.

This makes me sad, so maybe I could possibly join the ploughshares in their next action.
At least they are doing something agaist this so called war against terror.
Though my motives wouldn’t be as pure as theirs though, would it?
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April 6, 2010 8:35am
Tauhei Notts

I have just heard some woman with her snout deep in the Te Papa trough talking about Phar Lap, and his connection with the Trentham Racing Club.
She reminded me of the water colour by Gustavus Von Tempsky that they showed in the first month at Te Papa. It was a landscape showing the confluence of the Karapiro Stream and the Waikato River. Te Papa called it the scene of the Battle of Orakau.
Tell that sow that the Wellington Racing Club have a course at Trentham. And Orakau is on the Kihikihi – Arapuni road, thirty or so kilometres from the Karapiro stream. Motorists cross the Karapiro stream at the south end of Cambridge village.
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April 6, 2010 8:48am
Kris K

MikeNZ 8:35 am,

Like we helped in Bosnia and are assisting the UN with the Palestinians in Gaza and if Hamas get their way in the West bank also.
Good old clean green NZ helps fund all this by paying for “other stuff” so freeing up monies for weapons and explosives.

Indeed, Mike.
This is kind of my argument against providing (or selectively limiting) aid, etc to worn torn regions or places where ‘acts of God’ have occurred; where those areas/nations are fundamentally anti Western/Christian/Democracy. Either we end up proping up corrupt and oppressive regimes, and/or underwriting Islamic regimes sought on, ultimately, coming against and subjugating the West.

While I’m all for helping out the innocent victims who may find themselves in these situations, it’s often a fine line between doing this and doing what I’ve just outlined above. And more often than not I think we end up doing the latter.

How and who we assist in this regard needs the application of wisdom – wisdom seriously lacking in certainly our government, and forget the UN. If they were genuinely interested in sourcing this wisdom I have a suggestion of where they may find it – but I fear my offer will not be taken up.
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April 6, 2010 9:01am
Chicken Little

Eco-terrorists coming to your town soon.

Lock your doors, hide your treasure and your women. Pray that Gaia forgives.

If you’re one of those who have spent their lives undermining progressive climate legislation, bankrolling junk science, fueling spurious debates around false solutions, and cattle-prodding democratically-elected governments into submission, then hear this:

We know who you are. We know where you live. We know where you work.

And we be many, but you be few.
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April 6, 2010 9:34am
JiveKitty

“5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad — including two Reuters news staff.

Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.”

http://collateralmurder.com/

Oh dear.
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April 6, 2010 9:35am
Manolo

Imagine the wowsers’ outcry if this KFC “sandwich” makes it to NZ: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36179954/ns/business-consumer_news/?gt1=43001
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April 6, 2010 9:41am
nickb

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10636525

Surprise surprise, more Green fingerprints on the trough
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April 6, 2010 9:45am
MikeNZ

JK
Doesn’t look good, the van could have been civilians picking up wounded.
I couldn’t make out the kids in the van even with the pointer.
It seemed the one helo was keen to shoot the van but was turning out of sight line.
Interesting perspective though.
bet people didn’t congregate around people with weapons in that area again.
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April 6, 2010 10:09am
gazzmaniac

Manolo – that sandwich looks delicious! Might almost make me want to visit KFC
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April 6, 2010 10:12am
Banana Llama

I Would like to know more than what was happening on the video footage myself JK sounds like some Soldiers had been shot at 4:20 onwards.
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April 6, 2010 10:27am
Bevan

Jakarta is coming.

We better buy some fighter jets then – can’t do fuck all with two frigates and a pair of pop guns….
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April 6, 2010 10:32am
JiveKitty

@MikeNZ: Yeah, what was said afterwards wasn’t exactly confidence-inspiring either. I do worry about more pressure coming to bear on wikileaks after this.
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April 6, 2010 10:32am
JiveKitty

@Banana Llama: I’d like to know more about the entire situation as well. The fact that it had to come through wikileaks doesn’t inspire confidence in the official view though.
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April 6, 2010 10:38am
Brian Smaller

“5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad — including two Reuters news staff.

Oh dear.

So, there is a guy peering around the corner with what looks like a rifle, with a whole bunch of others congregated around behind him, and they get hammered. War photography is a dangerous game. A lot of them get killed. As far as ther kids and the van…there are helos flyiong around and you drive into a battlezone to pick up wounded. You are asking for trouble. These things happen in combat.
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April 6, 2010 10:53am
krazykiwi

Study reveals older is wiser
It turns out nana was right: Listen to your elders.

New research indicates that older people are indeed wise, both in knowing how to deal with conflicts between people and accepting life’s uncertainties and ever-present change.

Oh the irony. They needed a study to confirm this… when anyone with a few decades of life experience could have told them this in the first place!
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April 6, 2010 10:58am
nickb

Can someone please give me a quick breakdown on who and what Rick Giles is, along with what happened with his Oliver Driver interview? Just watching youtube now, he looks like a bit of a moron
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April 6, 2010 11:04am
cha

Yeah Brian, those stupid Iraqis, driving around like they owned the place.
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April 6, 2010 11:04am
Owen McShane

Aother nail in the ETS?

The New Zealand
Climate Science Coalition
Hon Secretary, Terry Dunleavy MBE, 14A Bayview Road, Hauraki, North
Shore City 0622
Phone (09) 486 3859 – Mobile 0274 836688 – Email –
terry.dunleavy@nzclimatescience.org.nz

6 April 2010 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Arctic ice scare seems to be history

There’s great news from the frozen North, reports Barry Brill, chairman of the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition. “The size of the Arctic ice cap has increased sharply, to comfortably reverse the ‘great melt’ of 2007, and extending coverage over a vast area of the Arctic Sea, to levels not seen since 2001,” he said.
“Scientists emphasise that the fluctuations of ice in the Arctic are natural variations in weather which have little relevance for long-term climate change. The principal driver is the Arctic Oscillation which usually set up a ring of strong winds circulating anti-clockwise around the North Pole.”
Mr Brill says that Mark Serreze, director of the National Snow and Ice Data Centre (NSIDC) has regretted the Centre’s 2007 conclusions that global warming had pushed the Arctic to a tipping point from which it might not recover – and said this was, in retrospect, an over-statement.
“The lesson is that we must be more careful in not reading too much into one event”, said Dr Serreze.
Mr Brill said the news is even better when looking southward. “The earth has two poles. And for reasons which are not well understood, when one pole warms, the other pole cools. Looking at just the Arctic sea ice is like looking at someone who is pouring water from one glass to another and back again. If we want to see how much water there is, it is useless to observe just one of the person’s hands. We need to look at both hands to see what is happening with the water.
“While it is certainly true that the Arctic had been losing ice, over the past few years, the Antarctic has been gaining ice. And the TOTAL global sea ice has barely changed at all over a period of 30 years. It goes up a little, it goes down a little, it goes nowhere …
“And to cap it off, the CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna) conference held at Doha on 18 March rejected a US proposal to classify polar bears as an endangered species. Delegates from 175 countries heard that most polar bear populations are increasing, and they are not yet experiencing the predicted stresses of loss of habitat. With Arctic sea ice back to normal, the oft–mentioned threat to polar bears seems unlikely to eventuate,” Mr Brill concluded.
Ends
398 words
Contact: Barry Brill, tel 09 402 8011, mob 021 486858
Email: barry.brill@gmail.com
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April 6, 2010 11:25am
paul henry

Noisy Moron Michael Laws.

The River Queen.

Whanganui’s Sorrow.
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April 6, 2010 12:39pm
eszett

Owen McShane (967) Says:
April 6th, 2010 at 11:25 am

Aother nail in the ETS?

Maybe not. Barry Brill is being a bit selective with his quotes and not quite telling the whole story. Mischievous really.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7086746.ece
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201004050019
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1263207/Increase-Arctic-ice-confounds-doomsayers.html

But this year, levels continued to grow in the second half of March. Dr Mark Serreze, of the NSlDC, said parts of the Arctic were going through an unusually cold spring – but that other areas were warmer than normal.

He added: ‘What this doesn’t show is any indication that global warming is over. If you look at the Arctic as a whole we might get to average amounts of sea ice for the time of year. But the ice is thin and quite vulnerable and it can melt very quickly.’

The best measure of the health of the Arctic was not only the amount of cover, but also the thickness of ice, he said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1263207/Increase-Arctic-ice-confounds-doomsayers.html#ixzz0kHC9e26C

and

Scientists emphasise that the regrowth of ice in the Arctic and the fierce US blizzards are natural variations in weather which have little relevance for long-term climate change.

“Records kept by Nasa show that in January and February global average temperatures were actually well above the long-term average by around 0.7C,” Serreze said
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April 6, 2010 12:48pm
southtop

Re: Chicken Little 9.34am
Just been reading your ecoterrorist link; the comments section is bloody funny.
Patrick Moore (former member of Greenpeace and now called an eco-judas by said org) at http://www.greenspirit.com/

“I now find that many environmental groups have drifted into self-serving cliques with narrow vision and rigid ideology. At the same time that business and government are embracing public participation and inclusiveness, many environmentalists are showing signs of elitism, left-wingism, and downright eco-fascism. The once politically centrist, science-based vision of environmentalism has been largely replaced with extremist rhetoric. Science and logic have been abandoned and the movement is often used to promote other causes such as class struggle and anti-corporatism.”
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April 6, 2010 12:58pm
Bevan

Yeah Brian, those stupid Iraqis, driving around like they owned the place.

Its called a warzone genius. You know armed helicopters buzzing around looking for insurgents out to cause death and destruction.

Gee I wonder what the London population were doing while doing while under air attack in the 40’s – out sipping tea and watching the light show if you believe cha…
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April 6, 2010 1:35pm
side show bob

How fitting, an explanation from southtop on why we must suffer the likes of eszett.
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April 6, 2010 3:01pm
philu

tom scott..on national radio..on drugs/pot..

total hysterical/reactionary fool..talking absolute lies/bullshit..

(the usual lies..”pot is 50 times stronger now..than in the 70’s..”

blathering wanker..!…)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 4:54pm
Chicken Little

southtop – yeah those comments are probably not quite what they were expecting ( and kudos to the site mod for putting them up ).

The guy that wrote it is the Greenpeace Communications manager for India. For someone that official in the organisation to be basically saying ‘we need to take the law into our own hands for what we perceive as good’ is flabbergasting.

In reality Greenpeace has turned into the political corporate beast it rails against. Worldwide turnover in the hundreds of millions and a giga-cackle of paid PR flunkies to spin spin spin the story that keeps the donations and grants rolling in.

I think the next few years will see likes of Greenpeace and WWF suffering a massive drop-off in support unless they curb their political activism and return to their environmental roots.
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April 6, 2010 5:12pm
southtop

Agreed Chicken Little and dodgy crap like this is not going to endear them to clear thinking people either. I’d like them to continue with the good work lol
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10634412
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April 6, 2010 5:32pm
Repton

This is kind of my argument against providing (or selectively limiting) aid, etc to worn torn regions or places where ‘acts of God’ have occurred; where those areas/nations are fundamentally anti Western/Christian/Democracy. Either we end up proping up corrupt and oppressive regimes, and/or underwriting Islamic regimes sought on, ultimately, coming against and subjugating the West.

If the kids next door weren’t getting enough to eat because their alcoholic dad keeps taking money for booze, would you help out the kids by giving them something to eat now and then?

Assume you live in a right-wing paradise where CYF doesn’t exist, so you can’t just call on the government to make everything better. And assume that the dad feels really guilty about his alcoholism and occasionally does get them something to eat.
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April 6, 2010 5:40pm
philu

are you still receiving monies from the climate-change-denial front-groups there..?..mcshane..?

y’know..!..for being part of their dis/misinformation campaigns..?

your history of this means/dictates you have all the credibility of a tobacco-company shill telling us that tobacco dosen’t cause lung cancer..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 5:44pm
krazykiwi

Leave Chris Cater alone. Any criticism of his forthcoming trip to Europe is simply because he’s gay.
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April 6, 2010 6:06pm
starboard

3 news report quiss carter is going on a 2 half week junket to Europe…part of it to monitor the English elections..what the fuck ?? Dont you ever learn carter ??? Trougher supreme.
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April 6, 2010 6:08pm
Kris K

Repton 5:40 pm,

This is kind of my argument against providing (or selectively limiting) aid, etc to worn torn regions or places where ‘acts of God’ have occurred; where those areas/nations are fundamentally anti Western/Christian/Democracy. Either we end up proping up corrupt and oppressive regimes, and/or underwriting Islamic regimes sought on, ultimately, coming against and subjugating the West.

If the kids next door weren’t getting enough to eat because their alcoholic dad keeps taking money for booze, would you help out the kids by giving them something to eat now and then?

Assume you live in a right-wing paradise where CYF doesn’t exist, so you can’t just call on the government to make everything better. And assume that the dad feels really guilty about his alcoholism and occasionally does get them something to eat.

I did counter it with the following in the same comment:

While I’m all for helping out the innocent victims who may find themselves in these situations, it’s often a fine line between doing this and doing what I’ve just outlined above. And more often than not I think we end up doing the latter.

The point I was try to highlight was that if we send aid in the form of food, etc., but all we end up doing is freeing other funds to procure arms/bombs, etc., or perhaps the aid/food we do send is directed to militia and never gets to starving children, for example, should we send the aid at all?

This is also the kind of issue Israel is confronted with:
How do you allow the free flow of food and medical supplies, etc. to the (sic) Palestinians but restrict the free flow of weaponry?
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April 6, 2010 6:43pm
philu

when did barry become barack..?

(obama ..’this change agent’..explained..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/barack-obama-the-opacity-of-hope/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 8:01pm
philu

“..How do you allow the free flow of food and medical supplies, etc. to the (sic) Palestinians but restrict the free flow of weaponry?..”

train the border guards to tell the differences between the two..?

‘y’know..!..’bandages..guns…guns..bandages’..got that..?’)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 8:04pm
big bruv

“tom scott..on national radio..on drugs/pot..

total hysterical/reactionary fool..talking absolute lies/bullshit..

(the usual lies..”pot is 50 times stronger now..than in the 70’s..”

blathering wanker..!…)”

And of course you can PROVE that he is telling lies Phool?
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April 6, 2010 8:17pm
philu

having smoked pot then..and now..and the times in between..yes..yes i can..!

does scott still barge around the narrow back streets of ponsonby..like toad of toad hall..?..

..does anyone know..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 8:26pm
philu

was toad of toad hall based on george bernard shaw..?

does anyone know..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 8:28pm
Ryan Sproull

was toad of toad hall based on george bernard shaw..?

does anyone know..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Shaw was a slim vegetarian. Chesterton was more portly.

GK Chesterton once said to Shaw, “To look at you, GBS, one would think there was a famine in England.”

To which Shaw replied, “And to look at you, GKC, one would know what caused it.”

Ah, those were the days.

Imagine if they were alive today?

“george bernard whore, u r a gay vegetarian lol only fags dont eat meet”

“stfu ur fat and 8 all da piez”
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April 6, 2010 8:34pm
philu

in the 70’s we had thai-sticks..sumatran..sth african(durban-poison)..hash..and good quality hash-oil..

..and the beginnings of good local..(grown from those thai/sumatran/durban imports..)

dope that pisses all over much of the current locally-grown..

(especially if you live in ..say..northland..with its’ (now) clapped-out strains of weed..

..looks ok..sorta smells like pot..but does s.f.a..

..the dope from the 70’s would be more than several times stronger than that..eh..?

..just one example/refuting of the total bullshit scott spouts on this subject..

‘cheers..!’..eh tom..?..what’s your ‘poison’..eh..?.’..

does it come with a cork..?..or in a cask..?

hypocrite..!)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 8:36pm
big bruv

Phool

It is just as I suspected, you have no proof at all.

Tell me, have you really been smoking that shit and sponging from the rest of us for forty years?
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April 6, 2010 8:52pm
philu

btw..that ‘pot is stronger now’ meme was totally dismissed by an examination of historical/currentl court records ..

..where the levels of thc have been tested as evidence in a court case..

and guess what..?..no real change is ‘what’..

now..you could sit scott down..and present him with this irrefutable evidence of the horseshit he spouts..

..and he would get up..walk out the door..and just continue telling the same alarmist lies..

he has all the credibility of an owen mcshane pontificating on climatechange..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 8:54pm
philu

would you like some salad dressing with those words there..?..large sibling..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 9:05pm
Hurf Durf

Phillip, you crackhead, stop spamming GD.

Gordo about to announce General Election. Looking forward to watching Union-controlled Labour get trounced and tasting the delicious tears of Labourgs.

Billy Bonkers is just repeating that McGuffin from Spooks a few series ago. Ignore him.

And lol Greenpeace. Fucking scummers, bring it on.
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April 6, 2010 9:10pm
philu

and yeah..we could do with a brace of shaws about now..

..(hold the chestertons tho’..he was more a farrar/russel brown of his time….

..hopelessly mired in/beholden to/an apologist for ..’the establishment’/status quo..)

..their feud was intense..and fun to behold..

..chesterton would pontificate/bellow on some subject..

..and shaw would pirouette around him..

..and demolish him..using humour as his weapon of choice….

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 9:13pm
philu

“..My method is to take the utmost trouble to find the right thing to say, and then to say it with the utmost levity..”

g.b.s..we miss you..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 6, 2010 9:32pm
Hurf Durf

God, the Beeb’s coverage of this is absolutely shit, totally insipid. I’m looking forward to the Tories getting rid of its unwarranted funding.
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April 6, 2010 9:45pm
Banana Llama

BBC is a good cure for insomnia though HurfDurf, the should give it funding from the public health system.
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April 6, 2010 9:56pm
Hurf Durf

And because it’s the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation it’ll be all Liarbore shilling all the time. Glad I don’t watch it anymore, except for when I’m forced to.
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April 6, 2010 10:54pm
Put it away

Phool mistakes the fact that he has built up tolerance ( burnt out all the THC receptors in what’s left of his brain) for the idea that the weed is weaker these days. Incidentally phool, how many people read Scott’s cartoons compared to your cavernously empty wasteland of a blog ? Even in his old, tired, boring state, he gets at least a thousand times as much attention as you ever will.
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April 6, 2010 11:25pm
Put it away

Phool at 8:36 pm “..the dope from the 70’s would be more than several times stronger than that..eh..?”

Phool at 8:54 pm “an examination of historical/currentl court records ….where the levels of thc have been tested as evidence in a court case..and guess what..?..no real change is ‘what’..”

Contradicting yourself a mere 18 minutes apart ? Little bit of short-term-memory damage going on there eh phool?
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April 6, 2010 11:45pm
philu

um..!..no..the first is talking about the clapped-out strains in northland..

..and the second is talking about evidential cannabis..over the decades..

got that now..?

(little bit of basic-comprehension-issues going on there..eh put-it-wherever..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 7, 2010 6:12am
Put it away

No phool, you said “much of the current locally-grown” was weak, not just Northland. And then you said there is “no real change”. Which is it, phool, is “much” of it weaker, or is there “no real change” ? You really can’t see that you are making two arguments that contractict themselves ? If these alleged court tests you refer to have failed to detect that “much of it” is weaker, what value are they? Or alternatively, if the tests are telling us something useful about the strength of dope, and you are telling us the opposite, then what value are you?
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April 7, 2010 6:25am
philu

and how is scott measuring up..?

with his ’50 times stronger’ claims..?

eh.?..oh pedantic one..?

how about you direct some of that pedantry his way..?..

..eh..?

ol’ tom ’50 times stronger’ scott..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 7, 2010 6:51am
Put it away

Phool can you cite a source of Scott saying weed IS fifty times stronger than the seventies? I think he has previously said that any given joint COULD be five to fifty times stronger than the sixties, which sounds more likely than your drug-addled recollection.
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April 7, 2010 8:20am
philu

“..any given joint COULD be five to fifty times stronger than the sixties..”

he seems to have hardened/settled on the ‘fifty’..eh..?

go to the radio new zealand website..and listen to him..(in jim moras’ show..)

..if you think i am lying/making this up..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 7, 2010 12:07pm

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Kiwipolitico
This will not end well
Offsetting Behaviour
Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
Stats Chat
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

editor@kiwiblog.co.nz

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