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April 30, 2010 8:05am by David Farrar

General Debate 30 April 2010

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General Debate

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eszett

And Pete, Christians pointing out the reality of hell is hardly a threat.

Gotta love “reality of hell”. Such nonsense!
Pointing out the absurdity of the concept of heaven and hell is what actually required.

And Kris K is on to his favourite topics again: hating Islam and beating children! Amusing to see how he manages to combine them.

The only reason why Christians are less violent these days than Moslems, is that we had the benefit of enlightenment and the age of reason. Religion in the west has been largely put in it’s place, the same thing needs to happen with Islam.

When people realise there is no heaven or hell and there are certainly no virgins waiting for you when you blow yourself up.
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April 30, 2010 2:48pm
Kris K

Pete George 2:08 pm,

Kris, a washed out bridge is something I can believe, floods happen. Bridges get washed out in real life.

Hell makes no sense (beyond being a commonly used and commonly understood scare tactic). There is no proof it exists, there is no indication where it might exist, or how it might exists, or how it would hold all those who didn’t believe something someone said.

But Pete, you base your reality only on your personal experiences – that you’ve encountered both bridges and flooding rivers. The fact that we ALL die, and no one has come back (so the argument goes) and told us what’s on the other side, doesn’t imply there is nothing there.

But if you want an insight into what is there I encourage you to read the account of Lazarus and the Rich Man:

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The reality of hell was so convincing to the Rich Man that once he realised his eternal fate was sealed, he desired that someone might go back from the dead and warn his brethren of their likely fate.
Abraham’s response is poignant:
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The warning is clear – if they hear not the ‘word of God’, neither will someone rising from the dead convince them. It is interesting that another Lazarus who Christ raised from the dead was sought by the Jewish religious authorities that they might kill him. And similarly, even though Christ rose from the dead and was witnessed by numerous individuals, people still reject Him. Just as they reject the word of God; the Bible.

Abraham makes it clear; the only ‘witness’ to us shall be the word of God, in conjunction with God’s Holy Spirit which testifies to our human spirit the truth of God’s word. And while not a ‘scientific’ proof, I’m afraid it’s all you’re going to get.

Oh yeah, God’s creation is another pretty big proof; but you guys attempt to reason that one away, too:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Without excuse, Pete [and others], WITHOUT EXCUSE!
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April 30, 2010 2:54pm
big bruv

Kris

You obviously have some real ability, why the hell waste it being a bible basher?
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April 30, 2010 2:56pm
Ryan Sproull

You obviously have some real ability, why the hell waste it being a bible basher?

“Everyone has in their heads a Thinker and a Prover. Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover will prove. And if the Thinker thinks passionately enough, the Prover will prove the thought so conclusively that you will never talk a person out of such a belief, even if it is something as remarkable as the notion that there is a gaseous vertebrate of astronomical heft (“GOD”) who will spend all eternity torturing people who do not believe in his religion.”
– Robert Anton Wilson
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April 30, 2010 3:02pm
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 1:44 pm,

How is Daniel Pipes insane Ryan?

I don’t know, maybe it’s congenital. Or drugs, could be drugs.

Ok Ryan, I’ve just put my “big-boy pants” on – why is Daniel Pipes, hyperbolically speaking, ‘insane’, based on your encounter with him?
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April 30, 2010 3:03pm
Brian Smaller

My chooks are giving us five eggs a day now. All those bennies living in on the dole and dpb need to start keeping a few chooks and their kids will be able to have a decent breakfast of eggs every morning.
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April 30, 2010 3:04pm
Pete George

But Pete, you base your reality only on your personal experiences – that you’ve encountered both bridges and flooding rivers. The fact that we ALL die, and no one has come back (so the argument goes) and told us what’s on the other side, doesn’t imply there is nothing there.

It doesn’t imply anything Kris.

More pointedly, it doesn’t imply there IS something there either.

No one has come back from the dead and said that they wooshed up a wormhole into a parallel universe and aged in reverse, so there is equal possibility that is what happens.
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April 30, 2010 3:08pm
Pete George

Brian, Dunedin City Council are proposing a bylaw change so that if anyone complains about a neighbour’s hens or sheep or whatever then you have to pick up all crap and either bury it or store in an airtight container.
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April 30, 2010 3:13pm
Kris K

big bruv 2:56 pm,

Kris

You obviously have some real ability, why the hell waste it being a bible basher?

Serious answer:
It is the only thing I can do as a Christian that has ANY eternal worth – to share the gospel of Christ that those that hear might receive forgiveness of sins and salvation.

And do you see the irony in your comment; “why the hell waste it being a bible basher?”
If I can help in pulling someone from the jaws of hell by sharing my faith here, then it is no ‘waste’ of my effort or ability; a sacrifice I’m more than prepared to make.
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April 30, 2010 3:16pm
Ryan Sproull

Ok Ryan, I’ve just put my “big-boy pants” on – why is Daniel Pipes, hyperbolically speaking, ‘insane’, based on your encounter with him?

You weren’t the one being a bit of a dick, Kris. You can talk to me with no pants on at all.

He had just given a two-part talk about Islamic extremism and the 2003 invasion of Iraq – those were the topics of the two separate parts of his talk. The audience was so up in arms about what they perceived as his racism that they didn’t ask anything about what he said about the invasion.

When I had a chance to talk to him, I asked him how on earth he could spend 20 minutes talking about his justifications for the invasion of Iraq without ever once mentioning weapons of mass destruction. To him, it was transparently obvious that the reason for invading Iraq was as part of some overarching battle between good and evil, with the United States being the good guys and Muslims, or perhaps anyone who gets in America’s way, in general being the baddies.

He said something along the lines of, “Well, Saddam did try to give us the impression that he had those weapons.” Which is all well and good, but those weapons were the justification provided by the US for invading Iraq, those weapons were the justification for seeking a UN Security Council resolution to make the invasion legal, and so on – to tack WMDs on as an afterthought seemed to betray a kind of apocalyptic battle-with-evil mindset that I consider a dangerous attitude, no matter how sophisticated the arguments are that build from it.

When I brought up international law, he replied that the invasion had set a great precedent for pre-emptive attacks on countries that could become threats in the future. That is also a dangerous way of thinking, to my mind.
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April 30, 2010 3:19pm
philu

“..My chooks are giving us five eggs a day now…”

mmm..!!..unfertilised chook fetuses..!

(but sometimes they are fertilised..eh..?

..isn’t that gross…?

..little bits of half-formed chook…?

ew..!….eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 30, 2010 3:19pm
big bruv

Kris

I am glad you answered the question seriously because that was the way I asked it.

However, I can only speak for myself when I say that I find your constant preaching to me and others on here to be a right pain in the arse.

I have no interest in your God, I respect your right to worship whoever and whatever you like and will always defend that right but I have no desire at all to have you ram it down my throat at every possible opportunity.

In short, give it a bloody rest please.
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April 30, 2010 3:21pm
Pete George

That’s really ironic Ryan.

In 2003, President George W. Bush nominated Daniel Pipes for the board of the United States Institute of Peace. After a controversy Pipes obtained the position by recess appointment.

Does he think you arrive at peace by annihilating the opposition?
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April 30, 2010 3:24pm
Kris K

Pete George 3:08 pm,

No one has come back from the dead …

Did you read the rest of what I said, Pete?
Both Lazarus and Christ rose from the dead – how many do you require to convince you?

You actually sound like my father; he says that he would believe if Christ revealed Himself to him personally. My response to him was, “so on the same basis Christ would need to appear to every generation, every individual, to convince them – what about the fact that He was witnessed by numerous individuals, and that was recorded in the Bible?”

The facts surrounding Christ, from a legal stance, are some of the most established facts of history based on multiple eye witness accounts. And then add into the mix prophetic insights from the Old Testament regarding Christ and any wriggle room has gone.

Once again, how many individuals would need to be raised from the dead to convince you, Pete?
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April 30, 2010 3:31pm
joe90

Terror attacks 1997-2009
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April 30, 2010 3:35pm
LeftRightOut

The facts surrounding Christ, from a legal stance, are some of the most established facts of history based on multiple eye witness accounts.

OK Kris, time to call you on this lie. And it is a lie, proven time and again. just where are these “eye witness accounts”? Most assuredly they are not in the bible. So come on, put up or shut up.

And then add into the mix prophetic insights from the Old Testament regarding Christ and any wriggle room has gone. You mean the ones where the christ story was adapted to ensure it fit? Why are prophecies only revealled after the event? Why, if the bible prohpecies about Jesus were so great, didn’t the jews recognise their fulfillment? I remember years and years of the Christadelhians going on about bible prophecy that the USSR would invade Israle and begin the rapture. What happened? Someone forget to tell Boris?
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April 30, 2010 3:39pm
Pete George

Evidence of one would be a good start. A few writings in old documents could mean anything. There is zero evidence of heaven, or of hell, or of life after death.
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April 30, 2010 3:41pm
Chthoniid

No Kris

The gospel accounts are hearsay. They were written years (decades) after the alleged events. They contradict each other in details (e.g. Judas’s death) and describe events that have no independent verification in contemporary Hellenistic, Roman or Hebrew sources.

Events such as earthquakes and the dead rising from their graves are mentioned, but despite the fantastical nature of these events, there is no mention in say, Pliny the Elder.

More telling, is simply that the gospels describe different people. The Jesus of Mark is completely at odds with the Jesus of John. They’re not the same person.

The legal stance argument only applies if you accept the opinion of a 19th C American legal scholar, and then all this does is argue that they would be admissible under the ‘ancient documents’ rules as it applied to the US back then.
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April 30, 2010 3:43pm
LeftRightOut

Just wait, KK is furiously googling for an answer ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..hoping like hell the rapture starts……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….NOW!
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April 30, 2010 3:50pm
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 3:19 pm,

You can talk to me with no pants on at all.

I was actually saving that for your Christmas present – especially as I missed your birthday and Valentines Day. 😉

He had just given a two-part talk about Islamic extremism and the 2003 invasion of Iraq …

… To him, it was transparently obvious that the reason for invading Iraq was as part of some overarching battle between good and evil, with the United States being the good guys and Muslims, or perhaps anyone who gets in America’s way, in general being the baddies.

He said something along the lines of, “Well, Saddam did try to give us the impression that he had those weapons.” Which is all well and good, but those weapons were the justification provided by the US for invading Iraq, those weapons were the justification for seeking a UN Security Council resolution to make the invasion legal, and so on – to tack WMDs on as an afterthought seemed to betray a kind of apocalyptic battle-with-evil mindset that I consider a dangerous attitude, no matter how sophisticated the arguments are that build from it.

Of course, the weapons inspectors didn’t have free reign as to where they could inspect. Many religious sites, etc., were off limits. Plus Sadam had plenty of time to move them (WMDs) to somewhere like Lebanon. So who really knows if he had them?
And I happen to agree with him that Islam is inherently ‘evil’, and, much as with Nazi Germany, it cannot be appeased.

When I brought up international law, he replied that the invasion had set a great precedent for pre-emptive attacks on countries that could become threats in the future. That is also a dangerous way of thinking, to my mind.

In some circumstances I think pre-emptive strikes are not only reasonable, but are in fact essential. Otherwise we end up with the likes of Iran gaining WMDs and raining them down on us BEFORE we respond. It’s not always good to be ‘reactive’ in such situations. Luckily for the West Israel will not allow Iran to achieve this without her intervening. Afterall, she’s likely to be the first one to be targetted by Iran.
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April 30, 2010 3:54pm
Kris K

Phool 3:19 pm,

mmm..!!..unfertilised chook fetuses..!

Contradiction in terms?
Good try, but no cigar, Phool.
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April 30, 2010 4:05pm
philu

here ya go kris k.

here is the word from your man…

..unlike the bible..actually written in his time..

it’s the one where he tells you what will happen to yo if you eat his animals..eh..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/and-jesus-said-choke-on-a-chicken-bone-and-die/

“..“..If you care to witness Jesus’ words untouched, read this from the Dead Sea Scrolls (long hidden by the Roman Catholic Church) ..

.. written in Jesus’ native language .. and written in his time.

Probably written by the man himself.

Don’t let corpse-munchers edit history with their, “My god says it’s cool to murder” shit!

Set the “I got an excuse for everything” blood-suckers straight with this nugget:

“It was said to them of old time, ‘Honor thy Heavenly Father and thy Earthly Mother, and do their commandments, that thy days may be long upon the earth.’

And next afterward was given this commandment, ‘Thou shalt not kill,’ ..

.. for life is given to all by God .. and that which God has given .. let not man take away.

For I tell you truly, from one Mother proceeds all that lives upon the earth.

Therefore, he who kills, kills his brother.

And from him will the Earthly Mother turn away .. and will pluck from him her quickening breasts.

And he will be shunned by her angels .. and Satan will have his dwelling in his body.

And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his own tomb.

For I tell you truly .. he who kills .. kills himself .. and whoso eats the flesh of slain beasts .. eats of the body of death.

For in his blood every drop of their blood turns to poison; ..

..in his breath their breath to stink; ..

..in his flesh their flesh to boils;

.. in his bones their bones to chalk; ..

.. in his bowels their bowels to decay; ..

.. in his eyes their eyes to scales; ..

.. in his ears their ears to waxy issue.

And their death will become his death.

For only in the service of your Heavenly Father are your debts of seven years forgiven in seven clays.

But Satan forgives you nothing .. and you must pay him for all.

‘Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot; burning for burning, wound for wound; life for life, death for death.’

For the wages of sin is death.

Kill not .. neither eat the flesh of your innocent prey .. lest you become the slaves of Satan.

For that is the path of sufferings .. and it leads unto death.

But do the will of God .. that his angels may serve you on the way of life.

Obey, therefore, the words of God: ..

.. ‘Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is breath of life ..

.. I give every green herb for meat.

But flesh, and the blood which quickens it, shall ye not eat.

And, surely, your spurting blood will I require, your blood wherein is your soul; I will require all slain beasts, and the souls of all slain men.

For I the Lord thy God am a God strong and jealous ..

.. visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; ..

.. and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me .. and keep my commandments.

Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength: this is the first and greatest commandment.’

And the second is like unto it: ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself’ ..

.. There is none other commandment greater than these.”

This passage is from: DEAD SEA SCROLLS—THE ESSENE GOSPEL OF PEACE, compared, edited, and translated by Edmond Bordeaux Szekely—

–purports to be a fragment (about 1/8 of the complete manuscript) of the ESSENE GOSPEL OF JOHN .. which details the healing works of Jesus.

What makes this document unique is that it is Szekely’s direct translation of the original text ..

.. which was discovered in the Vatican Library in Aramaic .. and which is in the Royal Library of the Hapsburgs in Old Slavonic.

The Aramaic text dates from the 1st century, while the Old Slavonic version is a literal translation of the former.

The Gospel is said to have traveled from Palestine into the heart of Asia and then into the hands of the Nestorian priests ..

.. who safeguarded it through the ages…”

food for thought there..eh..?..kris k..?

care to contemplate defying his words..?

as you do..

whoar..!..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 30, 2010 4:11pm
Inventory2

To change the subject completely, I see the Japanese have issed a warrant to arrest Paul Watson from Sea Shepherd – bring it on!

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/04/hoist-by-his-own-petard.html
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April 30, 2010 4:28pm
Pete George

Trying to get tough on traffic fine defaulters. Suspending licenses is easy, preventing unlicensed drivers from driving is more of a challenge, but being able to impound vehicles will help – if they get caught.

Legislation has been introduced which will allow driver licences to be suspended when people haven’t made arrangements to pay overdue traffic fines.

One of its proposed amendments is to the Land Transport Act, allowing driver licence stop orders (DLSOs) to be issued against fine defaulters.

“Eligible people will be sent a letter warning them that if they do not resolve their overdue traffic penalties within 14 days, their driver licences will be suspended.”

Licences will remain suspended until the overdue fines are resolved through payment or time-to-pay arrangements.

Vehicles will be impounded for 28 days if people drive in breach of a DLSO.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3644535/Licences-removed-from-defaulters
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April 30, 2010 4:45pm
chiz

Kris k:The facts surrounding Christ, from a legal stance, are some of the most established facts of history based on multiple eye witness accounts

Bollocks. There is still no reliable non-biblical evidence that he even existed, let alone that he rose from the dead.
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April 30, 2010 4:45pm
eszett

Both Lazarus and Christ rose from the dead – how many do you require to convince you?

You actually sound like my father; he says that he would believe if Christ revealed Himself to him personally. My response to him was, “so on the same basis Christ would need to appear to every generation, every individual, to convince them – what about the fact that He was witnessed by numerous individuals, and that was recorded in the Bible?”

And why not. Why wouldn’t he appear in every generation? Why wouldn’t God have an ambassador at all times? After creating the Universe it doesn’t seem such a hard ask, does it?

And maybe not every generation. Maybe just now. One with the scientific means to record and conserve it for the next 2 millennia. Is that too much to ask?

Actually there is no “fact” that He was witnessed by numerous individuals. The historic Jesus (the human, naturally conceived Jesus who died and was buried and stayed that way ever since) probably, but not one of those witnesses ever made it to the Bible.

And it is really funny that you regard that as evidence. How can than not believe in any of the other Gods? They all are supported by eye witness evidence, written down in some obscure books.
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April 30, 2010 4:46pm
Atheist1

http://godisimaginary.com/i15.htm
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April 30, 2010 5:18pm
Steve

If I had that much shit stored in my head, I would leave the Bong alone
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April 30, 2010 5:22pm
Hurf Durf

Oh great, more religion in a GD filled with religion-obsessed leftists. Zzzzzzz.

Also change the record joe90, your constant whining about Paylun does you no favours. Using Madcow as a source makes you as moronic as Marytn Bradbury, and you don’t want to go down that route.
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April 30, 2010 5:24pm
Ryan Sproull

Of course, the weapons inspectors didn’t have free reign as to where they could inspect. Many religious sites, etc., were off limits. Plus Sadam had plenty of time to move them (WMDs) to somewhere like Lebanon. So who really knows if he had them?

Who really knows if you have some? We know that he had some 10 years earlier, because the US, UK and Germany – among others – sold them to him. But they don’t last longer than three to five years, even if they’re kept perfectly. So the accusation the US made was that he had made more, despite how difficult that is even without the harsh trade sanctions on the country. And there was no reason to believe that he had. That’s why the US failed to get the UN resolution authorising force that it sought.

To leave that out of a 20-minute talk on the justification for invading defies credulity.

And I happen to agree with him that Islam is inherently ‘evil’, and, much as with Nazi Germany, it cannot be appeased.

Yes, I consider your view on the matter to be as insane as Pipes’.

In some circumstances I think pre-emptive strikes are not only reasonable, but are in fact essential. Otherwise we end up with the likes of Iran gaining WMDs and raining them down on us BEFORE we respond. It’s not always good to be ‘reactive’ in such situations. Luckily for the West Israel will not allow Iran to achieve this without her intervening. Afterall, she’s likely to be the first one to be targetted by Iran.

And if China pre-emptively strikes the US in anticipation of a perceived threat 20 years down the track, following the same justification and precedent?

That’s the problem with the rule of law. You have to do unto others as you’d have done unto yourself.
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April 30, 2010 6:58pm
Hurf Durf

Ryan Sprout manages to compare the antagonistic relationship between Iran and Israel to the mutually beneficial (and some might say, necessary) one between China and the US? Your average Crappum editor, ladies and gentlemen.
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April 30, 2010 7:35pm
chiz

Ryan:We know that he had some 10 years earlier, because the US, UK and Germany – among others – sold them to him. But they don’t last longer than three to five years, even if they’re kept perfectly. So the accusation the US made was that he had made more, despite how difficult that is even without the harsh trade sanctions on the country. And there was no reason to believe that he had.

Not true. The reason that people suspected he had various WMD and chemical munitions was because he hadn’t fully accounted for everything that we knew he had once had. Plus the fact that he was openly duplicitous and kept deliberately misleading people rather than co-operating.

Your claim about chemical weapons only lasting 3-5 isn’t completely true either. After the first 50 or so of the missing chemical weapons were found in Iraq, once the war was over, the Iraq Survey Group opined in their report that no more would be found and that they were too degraded to be a threat. A year later in their addendum they distanced themselves from both opinions and left open the possibility that they would find more of the chemical munitions and some of them might possibly have enough residue left to be a threat. They turned out to be right on that first one as more than 500 of the things have now been found. The pre-war intelligence turned out to be correct here.

That’s why the US failed to get the UN resolution authorising force that it sought.

The reason the US failed to get a resolution was because of obstruction by Russia and France who had massive oil deals with Saddam and didn’t want to see him deposed. In the commercial world France and Russia would have been required to recuse themselves from the debate because of their massive conflict of interests.
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April 30, 2010 7:43pm
thedonk

we have the same problem with tourists visiting the isle of man in the uk its a small island and we get thousands of drivers fron europe and there have been meny accidents with them driving on the wrong side of the road i decided to do somthing about it i make a small reflective arrow for the top edge of the wing mirror of m/cycles cars etc if you think it may help in nz website is http://www.roadsidereminder.co.uk if you would forward it on will be most greatfull andy
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April 30, 2010 7:49pm
Steve

Govt tips 470 public service jobs to go by the end of next year.
Labour’s state services spokesperson, Grant Robertson, says he expects even more jobs to be cut from the public sector in the next four years.

So Grant Robertson concedes Labour will not win the next election?

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2010/04/30/1247ff00198d
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April 30, 2010 8:18pm
RKBee

Grant Robertson no Albert Einstein is he.
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April 30, 2010 8:46pm
nickb

If anyone wants a truly inspirational story, watch this:

http://www.3news.co.nz/Video/CampbellLive/tabid/367/articleID/153600/Default.aspx

Brook was one of my best mates in college up north… stoked Darryl’s on his road back to recovery
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April 30, 2010 8:50pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan Sprout

Hurf Durf, what are you – eight years old hiding behind that alias?

manages to compare the antagonistic relationship between Iran and Israel to the mutually beneficial (and some might say, necessary) one between China and the US? Your average Crappum editor, ladies and gentlemen.

I was giving an example of a pre-emptive strike Kris might not approve of. Iran attacking Israel and using the same defence is a good enough example of something similarly undesirable, though, since you brought it up. “It was a pre-emptive strike. Even though they hadn’t attacked us yet, we believed they could potentially in a decade or two.” That was the justification Pipes said was a good thing in the instance of the US and Iraq.

That was a more civil response than your childish nonsense deserved.
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April 30, 2010 8:55pm
Ryan Sproull

Not true. The reason that people suspected he had various WMD and chemical munitions was because he hadn’t fully accounted for everything that we knew he had once had. Plus the fact that he was openly duplicitous and kept deliberately misleading people rather than co-operating.

Your claim about chemical weapons only lasting 3-5 isn’t completely true either. After the first 50 or so of the missing chemical weapons were found in Iraq, once the war was over, the Iraq Survey Group opined in their report that no more would be found and that they were too degraded to be a threat. A year later in their addendum they distanced themselves from both opinions and left open the possibility that they would find more of the chemical munitions and some of them might possibly have enough residue left to be a threat. They turned out to be right on that first one as more than 500 of the things have now been found. The pre-war intelligence turned out to be correct here.

Interesting. Got a reference to cite? I’m not sure it would quite justify the US breaking the law, but it might make proponents of the US feel better about the vigilantism.

The reason the US failed to get a resolution was because of obstruction by Russia and France who had massive oil deals with Saddam and didn’t want to see him deposed. In the commercial world France and Russia would have been required to recuse themselves from the debate because of their massive conflict of interests.

That was possibly a factor, but I’ve always been wary of blaming all of the woes of the world on big-business interests.
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April 30, 2010 9:00pm
Pete George

Durf just seems to hurf around their snarkiness, don’t think I’ve ever seen a positive contribution from her/him.
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April 30, 2010 9:31pm
Hurf Durf

Nothing I like more than sending some smug AUSA cunt back to earth, George. Life’s little pleasures and all.

[DPF: 30 demerits]
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April 30, 2010 9:37pm
Pete George

You have to have credibility to manage that.

Finally, the Highlanders show some guts and determinate and a will to win.
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April 30, 2010 9:47pm
LeftRightOut

Pete, you need to understand that hurf is the love child of redbirther and d4j
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April 30, 2010 9:53pm
Pete George

Don’t think there’s much love in that family.
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April 30, 2010 9:55pm
Hurf Durf

Better them than the hateful gutter of a woman who squeezed you out, Bonkers.
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April 30, 2010 10:37pm

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