General Debate 28 April 2010

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Murray

Dear John, scrap the ETS or we’re all moving to Oz.
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April 28, 2010 8:06am
Pete George

Dear DCC, scrap this lunacy or there could be a few more moving to Oz.

Picking up sheep droppings ‘completely nuts’

The Dunedin City Council is considering rules which would force some property owners to collect the little black offerings left behind by animals, including sheep, pigs and goats, and also poultry. The rules would cover all residential and rural residential properties in Dunedin with smaller numbers of sheep and other animals.

The bylaw aimed to protect the public from noise, nuisance and health and safety threats caused by animals. Among the suggestions is a rule requiring owners to collect animal droppings. The material should either be stored in a fly-proof container and disposed of, or buried under at least 50mm of soil.

The DCC might find some up-picks in submissions on this.
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April 28, 2010 8:21am
wreck1080

John Key has pissed me off big time now.

This arrogant politician is putting NZ as a world leader regarding climate change and emissions tax.

HOw stupid is this man? NZ cannot lead the world when we are one of the smallest emitters so why punish us unnecessarily?

There will be people on the breadline who will be pushed into poverty.

Those who are just above the breadline, will be struggling even more. Any miniscule treats they enjoyed before will be gobbled up by the arrogance and stupidity of John Key.
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April 28, 2010 8:33am
Murray

John suffers from a problem we’ve seen before, hes made a decision that he thought would be good for the polls and he he has talked himself into it because to change his position would be bad for the polls.

Remind you of anyone?

Unfortunately Nationals poll fall will look like Labour gaining popularity which will confuse them into thinking they are doing something right when in fact the entire mob are just pissing most of us off.
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April 28, 2010 8:36am
Grendel

Anyone noticed that the lefties are trying to claim that the law commission is the govt?

i am seeing a lot of people blaming “national, for making things more expensive for regular people”. which ignores the fact that National rejected the tax hike, the greens are not hapy with the tax rejection, and that geoffrey palmer is a former labour PM.

nope this is all evil nationals fault apparently. even though the votes will be conscience votes.

its like its calculated spin to make it all nationals fault, and keep labour clean (and the greens) even though its their lot proposing it.

now that said, as national seem to want to keep the nanny state that labour built going, i expect to need a license to have a beer by the end of the year.
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April 28, 2010 8:49am
hj

Kevin Hague (painted into a corner)
Posted April 27, 2010 at 5:55 PM
One of jh’s themes has been dis-satisfaction with the Green Party for not being specific about the outcomes of our policy in relation to the Treaty. “What, specifically, will this country be like if we go down this course?”. It’s a question I have heard many times over the years, and it usually speaks from a position of fear and insecurity for Pakeha: what if I’ll be worse off? or even what if there’s no place for me?

I want to acknowledge that actually we are asking people to do something (and we are doing it too) quite different from what we usually ask with our policy. Normally we have a very clear idea of the outcome we are seeking, and establish a policy to reflect how we will get there.

But the Treaty is different. The words all have the potential to sound pretty hammy, but fundamentally the outcome being sought is a process: the process of absolute good faith negotiation, in which we Pakeha engage from a position of honour – acting ethically and morally.

That process involves courage because we don’t know the outcome (and because we know we have it pretty sweet just how things are, let’s be honest). It is pretty scary, but it’s also pretty damn exciting!
http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/04/27/d-r-i-p-%E2%80%93-like-water-on-a-stone/#comments
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April 28, 2010 8:52am
Razork

My understanding is that the govt are aware the “science” behind the ETS is flawed and privately acknowledge that it won’t make much, if any differance, to the climate.

BUT, they believe that many of our current and potential trading partners will go this way and they think that by being an early adapter some parties in other countries will promote NZ as a premier partner.

It’s all about that longer term trading view, not the climate.
Ironically the other parties in these trading party countries promoting NZ will most likely be the leftie sandle wearing tree huggers.
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April 28, 2010 9:09am
dime

razork – i see the strategy behind the ETS but i think its flawed.
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April 28, 2010 9:38am
starboard

party vote ACT.
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April 28, 2010 9:43am
Auberon

Dear Murray, while my instincts say our ETS should be delayed, if not abolished, if keeping it as is meant you moved to “Oz” then I’m seriously conflicted over what the government should do next.
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April 28, 2010 9:52am
MikeNZ

Yeah like its sensible to sign something that doesn’t mean anything and furtively send your maori affairs minister to New York to sign it!

Vote Party Vote ACT.
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April 28, 2010 9:58am
Auberon

Taxi for MikeNZ, Murray will take you to the airport.
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April 28, 2010 10:11am
MikeNZ

Wake up Auberon, Johns calling he needs another shoe polish.
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April 28, 2010 10:17am
philu

“..party vote ACT..”

trying to get them above 1.6%..?

(snigger..!..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 28, 2010 10:21am
Murray

Auberon if you watch really closely you might see me give a crap what you think.

Or not.
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April 28, 2010 10:39am
philu

dosen’t muzza speak for the poet within us all..?..eh..?

he is such a lyricist..

..and his words scream for a musical backing..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 28, 2010 10:42am
philu

maybe a high-pitched drone..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 28, 2010 11:05am
starboard

..the day will come whore when you will have no benefit…to eat and to survive you will have to get off your tired arse and work for an income or you will starve…you are the cancer…ACT is the cure…oh glory.. the day cant come quick enough…
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April 28, 2010 11:06am
big bruv

Only in NZ, the country where you can kill somebody, go to court and admit your guilt and the judiciary give you bail.

What the fuck is going on in this rapidly emerging third world nation?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3632014/Guilty-plea-to-Whakatane-principals-manslaughter
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April 28, 2010 11:09am
Atheist1

philu “trying to get them above 1.6%..?”

LOL! I love your comments. They’re the only reason I bother reading this blog! on the button. Keep it up, mate.
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April 28, 2010 11:09am
Murray

phul u the parasitic cancer within. A shit talking crapweasle who lives off over people work and sneers down at them. The perfect socialist.
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April 28, 2010 11:14am
starboard

Atheist1 (76) Says:

April 28th, 2010 at 11:09 am
philu “trying to get them above 1.6%..?”

LOL! I love your comments. They’re the only reason I bother reading this blog! on the button. Keep it up, mate

…President of the philwhore fan club…current membership..one…what a tool.
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April 28, 2010 11:18am
Ross Nixon

Party vote ACT.
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April 28, 2010 11:20am
Atheist1

“President of the philwhore fan club…current membership..one”

actually you’d be surprised, weird little Act freak-oid. What was that again? 1.6% and an Orange Man? hahahaha
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April 28, 2010 11:31am
philu

“..ACT is the cure..”

reality check darling…

..aside from being totally out-of-time…your funny little (pre-humanist-thinking/rand-ite) cult is on 1.6%..(and not growing..eh..?..)

..and if you are an act-ite..you already know that the (formerly) avuncular-one is looking shaky in epsom..eh..?

so..

..bye-bye..!..eh..?..is quite on the cards..eh..?…)

that ‘cure’ is just another of your (comforting?) fantasies..eh..?

do you use them to ..y’know..keep you going..?..there..bored..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 28, 2010 11:32am
starboard

whore…refer my earlier comment 11.06am..oh yeah and Murray’s at 11.14..now fuck off ..
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April 28, 2010 11:34am
philu

btw..while i think of it..

there will be an anti-mining conservation estate protest/march in auckland this coming saturday..

..it starts at britomart at 1.pm..

..be there..!..eh..?

(remember how effective the anti-ge march was..

make key blanch..and recant..

..eh..?

..like we did to clark..

..the echo of the stamp of many (white/middle-class) feet makes politicians quake in their boots..

..feel/exercise the power you have..

..eh..?

..and stop these bastards in their tracks..

..eh..?

(and..um..!..spread the word through yr networks..eh..?

..and come up and say hello/cyrse me..

i’m the one with two dogs in the whoar t-shirt….

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 28, 2010 11:37am
MT_Tinman

What the fuck is going on in this rapidly emerging third world nation?

Rapidly submerging third world nation.
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April 28, 2010 11:40am
JiveKitty

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8645485.stm
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April 28, 2010 11:42am
starboard

i’m the one with two dogs in the whoar t-shirt….

…heh, the unkempt one…dressed in a rubbish bag , smoking a crack pipe..will keep an eye out for ya
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April 28, 2010 11:57am
starboard

Only in NZ, the country where you can kill somebody, go to court and admit your guilt and the judiciary give you bail.

..c’mon , he’s got an appointment at a restorative justice conference..and he didnt mean to do it…so its ok…dont worry ’bout the dead dude…its NZ…its all ok….
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April 28, 2010 12:08pm
krazykiwi

Parliament TV boring? Tune in to Ukrane’s equivalent!

Lawmakers brawl in Ukraine over pro-Russia measure.

Fists, eggs, smoke bombs. Really! They’re playing catch-up with the Koreans 🙂
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April 28, 2010 12:12pm
cha

Poor IV2, looks like Blinglish is going to kill the Golden Goose.
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April 28, 2010 12:12pm
LeftRightOut

Today is International Workers’ Memorial Day, a day to remember all those who lost their lives while working. I have looked in vain to see where John Key is making his remembrance. He can race home for the funerals a few air force workers, but doesn’t seem to care about the other 100 or so kiwis who die in industrial accidents each year.

Come on John, man up and pay your respects to the workers.
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April 28, 2010 12:34pm
KiwiGreg

“Today is International Workers’ Memorial Day”

Says who.
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April 28, 2010 12:36pm
krazykiwi

a day to remember all those who lost their lives while working

That wouldn’t be many of your lot, would it?
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April 28, 2010 12:39pm
Swiftman the infidel

Have you heard of the Roger Award – it’s given annually by NZ commies to business they hate.

I think we need a NZ traitor of the Year Award. Perhaps May Day (1st May) would be appropriate as the commies are always stealing from us.

Contenders could include Shonkey, Minto, Mmmmatt MamamamaCarten and Jane Kelsey.

Any thoughts?
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April 28, 2010 12:56pm
Lance

Loved the TVNZ breakfast show this morning.
I normally can’t stand Paul Henry (goes down like a shit sandwich) but he nailed Full Goof in an interview.
Goof was prattling on about the tax cuts 38c down to 33c being only for the rich, and oh the humanity ‘what about the poor people’.
Henry pointed out that those on 38c had been left out of every benefit for a VERY long time. Goof denied this and went into endless tape recorder playback mode but wasn’t allowed to by Henry.
Classic.
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April 28, 2010 1:01pm
RRM

Kapiti Coast police are looking for……. A motorcyclist.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/7119930/motorcyclist-clocks-over-200kmh-police/
Truly journalism at its most incisive.
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April 28, 2010 1:06pm
Yvette

If New Zealand is going it alone in leading the world with our ETS who do we pay carbon credits [ or debits ] to?
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April 28, 2010 1:09pm
krazykiwi

I’d be interested to learn if Key’s personal wealth would be impacted by carbon trading. He was a substantial shareholder in Merrill Lynch, and after an all-stock takeover by Bank of America would have become a substantial private investor in BoA. Bank of America announced a $US20 billion investment in ‘Green Technologies’, including carbon trading. Extract:-

Carbon Emissions Trading: The bank will launch the capability to trade
carbon emissions credits in order to enable clients to achieve carbon
emission neutrality through existing and emerging market mechanisms.

So it’s rather a long bow, but nevertheless it’s possible that Key would benefit from active, profitable carbon market, just as Gore and Pachauri are currently benefiting. A simple declaration from Key would sort that out.
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April 28, 2010 1:31pm
camrun

Anyone else got the latest Labour propaganda? “Jobs and Families” and Robertson’s newsletter?

Firstly Goff’s “Jobs and Families” (surprisingly not about either of these things):

“I’m working to keep NZ Superannuation from age 65…”
Given JK has said repeatedly he’ll resign before raising age of eligibility, shouldn’t he be trying to do the opposite?
Also, how much can he even do? Does he realise Labour aren’t in power?

“…to bring down power prices…”
I guess that’s why he’s opposing the ETS. Oh, wait a minute.

“…and to make sure you don’t pay more for less cover from ACC.”
Because Labour’s management of ACC was so perfect.

And then Robertson’s newsletter:

– ‘Axe the Tax’ (Most misleading slogan ever?)
– National Standards (Oh no, accountability for teachers!!!)
– His ‘Keep the Sevens in Wellington’ campaign (It was never going to go anywhere, like the superannuation age)
– Something about National Archives losing transparency (One of the biggest issues facing NZ today, obviously)

So in conclusion, Labour have used my taxpayer money to tell me they’re working on issues that aren’t issues (Superannuation, Sevens, Archives), working on issues to save me money that they can’t effect (and caused in the first place) (power prices, ACC), working on an issue that they have said they won’t necessarily do anything about (GST) and working on an issue to cover teachers’ asses at the expense of children’s education (National Standards).

On the positive side, thanks for reminding me why I can’t bring myself to support Labour.
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April 28, 2010 1:32pm
Pita

Yvette”If New Zealand is going it alone in leading the world with our ETS who do we pay carbon credits [ or debits ] to?”

Indeed…and with carbon credits trading internationally at around $0.10 cents per tonne, how much are we going to be charged by the Government? rest assured it won’t be at that price…

The ETS is a TAX a rort a scam, call it what you will, that will achieve nothing for the climate nor Globl warming.

If the goverment were indeed serious about reducing New Zealands carbon (AGW) contribution it would cease selling coal to the Chinese…perhaps it may have more to do with their expose to the Cullen superfund?
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April 28, 2010 1:41pm
philu

really lance..?

i saw goff on breakfast also..

..and i wassurprised at how able/potent he was..

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/commentwhoarphil-goff-gets-on-messageand-kudos-to-the-greens-leaders/

those wondering if labour will ever start acting like an opposition party..

..should go to tvnz on-demand..and watch goff vs. henry on todays’ breakfast show..

..there you will see phil goff doing a worthy demolition of the ideologies/class-warfare behind the tax-’cut’ plans of national..

(plus he demolishes paul henrys’ spin/pleas/mewls for the long-suffering rich..

..(he even used the word ’screwed’..as in what national is doing to middle/low-income nz’ers..three times..(!)..)

but seriously..!..well done that phil goff…!

that combined with the lucid demolition of nationals’ lies about our ‘debt’..(as in …most of it is private-debt..not govt.-debt..by cunnliffe..

..gives one cheer..

(also of note recently..has been worthy performances in the house..from both the green party co-leaders..

and the new green..hughes..rattled mccully the other day..when he bored in on the whales-issue..heh..!)

..all in all..i am somewhat cheered by these developments..

national/key have been allowed to just get away with their lies/spin..for far too long..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 28, 2010 1:52pm
jinpy

sigh, keep posting on yesterdays debates…

This ones for Malcolm’s query yesterday on why racism is generally perceived as worse than other forms of discrimination:

Malcolm,
First, there is really no such thing as race given that genetic variation within a proposed racial group is always much greater than that between groups. While each of us has a particular genetic lineage, categorizing into races such as caucasoid, mongoloid… etc. is arbitrary, historical and increasingly out of use.

As to your point, I dont think racism is necessarily ‘more evil’ than other prejudices, beyond the fact that it acts as a more powerful in group/out group distinction leading to conflict on a larger scale. Also, unlike some things, it does not relate to a perceived behavior (like homosexuality) or a characteristic that could be controlled (like being fat) but relates to things that no-one can change, nor should they want to. Finally, racism is always subjective as it presupposes that someone’s physical characteristics mean they have a certain set of attributes. While I might be able to argue that ‘people with down syndrome are stupid’ or ‘people with autism are unfriendly’, any such statement on the basis of race is inherently prejudiced.

Other judgements can be made based on people’s appearance aside from race — blondes, people with glasses etc — but racism acts on the group level, is more binary — in group/out group, and directly relates to historical power structures. Thus, it is much more powerful within society to say ‘blacks are lazy’ when the divide is black/white and whites have historically been the colonisers/oppressors of blacks, than to say ‘people with glasses are stupid’ because we’ve never really divided power based on whether people wear glasses.
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April 28, 2010 1:59pm
KiwiGreg

Shouldn’t this headline be “Mindlessly stupid criminal jailed”?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3632809/Greedy-scam-victim-jailed

She’s a thief not a victim
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April 28, 2010 2:00pm
big bruv

Phool

I can only assume that you started on the dope early this morning.

http://tvnz.co.nz/breakfast-news/breakfast-wednesday-april-28-3496198/video?vid=3496337

Henry made Goff look like an idiot, now, I know that is not hard to do but Goff bumbled and stumbled through the interview like a man who has no policy or ideas other than to talk about making tax cuts “fair” for low income workers.

Mind you, Henry really missed the chance to destroy Goff, while he (Henry) briefly touched on the issue of the so called “rich pricks” not receiving anything out of Labour or National so far, he really should have hammered Goff on his statement that these tax cuts are “not fair”, given that so many low income workers effectively pay no tax then there is a bloody good argument to be made that it is quite right they should receive nothing or very little out of the upcoming budget.

Interesting that Goff has said he would reinstitute the envy tax so popular with the hard left, should this nation ever be dumb enough to elect another Labour government we can look forward to another exodus of out best and brightest.
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April 28, 2010 2:23pm
philu

y’know bruv..you just constantly lie..eh..?

so i can’t be fucked engaging with you any more..

..yr on the shit-list..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 28, 2010 2:32pm
lastmanstanding

Your economy is in a fragile state just but not quite emerging from a crisis. You can either introduce policies that will increase prices across the board worsening your exporters already dire competitive position adding to inflation and reducing the standard of living of most of your citizens

OR you can further reduce the tax take from your current position reel in the 25% of waste in your governments expenditure increase the opprotunities for your exporters and stimulate your ecomony and the living standards of your citizens

Which one do you chose JK?
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April 28, 2010 2:38pm
big bruv

“so i can’t be fucked engaging with you any more..”

Please tell me that is a promise!
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April 28, 2010 2:45pm
philu

correction on the anti-mining demo on sat..

it kicks off at 11 am..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 28, 2010 3:07pm
big bruv

Oh fuck…..

The National MP for Tasman and West coast is now asking patsy questions in the house about the ETS thus giving idiot Smith the chance to tell bare faced lies.

It is just another reason to dump the Nat’s
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April 28, 2010 3:22pm
chiz

jinpy:First, there is really no such thing as race given that genetic variation within a proposed racial group is always much greater than that between groups

This is statistical gibberish.
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April 28, 2010 3:26pm
big bruv

Can anybody tell me what useful purpose that complete waste of space Delahunty serves as a member of our house of representatives?

At $8000 a minute to run the place one would hope that the people speaking were at least sane and reasonable.
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April 28, 2010 3:40pm
Inventory2

Agreed big bruv – Mad Cath is neither sane nor reasonable!
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April 28, 2010 4:14pm
mattyroo

philu said:

“there will be an anti-mining conservation estate protest/march in auckland this coming saturday..”

I’ll be there philu, in my Cat D9, and the long haired, drug fucked loser in a whoar t-shirt with two mangy flea infested mutts will be the first fucker that gets to taste the pavement under the tracks of my bulldozer.
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April 28, 2010 4:32pm
big bruv

mattyroo

There is no evidence that Phools dogs are of the same loser mentality, if possible, can you avoid them while showing Phool what the tracks of your bulldozer look like?
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April 28, 2010 4:35pm
Pete George

While everyone is distracted by booze moves they slip in a quick increase on the fags.
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April 28, 2010 5:00pm
jinpy

chiz,
better not to comment if the ideas are too complex for you.
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April 28, 2010 5:02pm
MikeNZ

Give John Key and National a smack next election
Vote party Vote ACT
Big Bruv
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April 28, 2010 5:10pm
gingercrush

How much excise is in tobacco?
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April 28, 2010 5:15pm
Bevan

It is just another reason to dump the Nat’s

But who the hell is there to vote in their place? I can’t recall the last time Act polled over 5%. And going back to Labour – get fucked.

Fact is the soft cock Nats are controlling the party now, and are doing their best to prove they are the best damn Labour government this country has ever had.
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April 28, 2010 5:16pm
Swiftman the infidel

Just heard Prick Smith on talkback ZB say that the ETS is NOT a tax.

It’s a cost, folks. It is NOT a tax.

I want my vote back.
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April 28, 2010 5:25pm
starboard

..party vote ACT..
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April 28, 2010 6:20pm
Hurf Durf

Hey Phillip, the plod have shut down SOG, they’ll be ploughing through their records and onto you next. I’d be tearing apart that nice little set-up of yours if I were you.

And we all remember how successful the anti-supercity march was. At least this time the moonbats are being polite and doing it at the weekend.
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April 28, 2010 6:30pm
chiz

jinpy:better not to comment if the ideas are too complex for you.

They aren’t. They appear to be too complex for people like you however. Get yourself to primer on statistics sometime and learn about the difference between mean and variance and which one you use to compare populations.
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April 28, 2010 8:19pm
big bruv

Mike & Starboard

Give me an ACT party leader who has not been blinded by the baubles of office and I will gladly vote for them, until then, there is no chance I am ever going to vote for a man suffering from a mid life crisis.
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April 28, 2010 8:35pm
Viking2

Just cause you’ve got over your one BB.
Go talk to the man next time he’s around your way.
Party Vote ACT or put up with the crap we are getting now, which is no better than the crap we got from the last lot.
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April 28, 2010 8:43pm
big bruv

Viking

Never had one, as it happens, mind you, I never liked Porsche motor cars, there is nothing sadder than a middle aged man in a Porsche.

As for Baubles Hide, hell, he never comes down this way, he would not soil himself to be seen outside of Newmarket.

Why the hell would I want to talk to the guy anyway?, I have seen him in action, and as the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.
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April 28, 2010 8:50pm
starboard

BB , at this stage I see him as the only alternative to the limp wristed maori loving hone key. There is no one else. Fuck giving my vote to the homos on the left or the green pinkos. Call it my protest vote. Anyway..at the end of the day we are moving from NZ…just a bit sooner now than previously planned.

party vote ACT.
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April 28, 2010 9:06pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Gordon Brown describes voter as “Bigoted Woman”. This could make the UK election more exciting.
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April 29, 2010 12:13am
jinpy

Chiz,
My apologies for the earlier statement — was out of order.

I’m not sure in regard to the statistical ins and outs but the idea struck me as intuititve. Perhaps I need to explore it more before commenting. In any case, the measure I’m referring to is genetic variation, and its not only a statistical consideration but an active choice in how we define this variation–I’m not sure you can define a mean value for something like this…? Here I admit the limits of my knowledge, I don’t know how they determine genetic variation, but Ive read that if you take a group of people and compare people within that group the genetic variation between them is at least as great as picking two people from different predefined races. I don’t know how you then go on to summarize the populations — perhaps a mean level of genetic difference between two random people?
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April 29, 2010 8:43am
MikeNZ

Big Bruv
your logic is astounding, your not going to vote for a political party with a leader in a middle age crisis?
Yet on another thread you state you are going to vote labour as you would rather be arse rimmed by someone you hate, than I presume some one you like re: the fags tax.

I have to ask, “what part of middle aged white man in leathers on a motorbike going to political meeting don’t you understand”?

Give John Key a smacking at the next election
Vote Party Vote ACT
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April 29, 2010 8:44am
MikeNZ

If 25% of voters give their party votes to ACT in protest to National for being Labourlite and ignoring the taxpayer.

What will be ACT’s seats in parliament?
anyone know?

Wiil Key still be PM?
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April 29, 2010 8:47am
big bruv

Mike

Do you really think that Baubles Hide is ever going to be anything other than Neville Key’s lap dog?
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April 29, 2010 9:17am
Luc Hansen

Well done Jinpy, except for backing down unnecessarily. You are quite correct, these days it is recognised that the concept of race is an artifice (a word some on here are fond of using). The concept of race has been and is utilised to justify all sorts of monstrosities when, in fact, the real reason is, as you say, historical power groupings.

And as an addendum to that, there is no reason to hope for anything better when the oppressed eventually gain power because as Bertrand Russell pointed out, the oppressed are merely oppressors in waiting. Although I personally find that an unnecessarily pessimistic view of human nature. But I could be wrong.

Another thought: I agree the ETS is a waste of time, except in the political world. As Nick Smith said, he has watered down an already ineffective scheme. The answers to the problems capitalism has bestowed on us do not lie in the capitalist world (please note, this is not an attack on capitalism). I’m afraid my current view of our response to climate change is entirely pessimistic. I predict a temperature rise of over 4C from pre-industrial levels by the end of this century with consequences, including wars, we will be ill prepared for.

Such is the life my toddler has entered. However, my generation has had it easy, a brief respite from ongoing historical holocausts, and a gloomy prediction for the future is no reason to deny others the right to life because, let’s face it, I may be wrong.

Meanwhile, the illegitimate and ultimately doomed state of Israel uses lethal force from the sanctuary of an armoured vehicle (parked on stolen Palestinian land) against a rock throwing Palestinian demonstrator. A male, as is their usual choice.

I guess Bertrand Russell was onto something after all.
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April 29, 2010 9:41am
chiz

Jinpy the problem is that within-group variation is irrelevant to the question of whether there is between-group variation.

Consider for example gender and height. Men are generally taller than woman, but the variation in height within each gender is mauch larger than the difference the two genders. The fact that there is more genetic variation within each race rather than between them still doesn’t change the fact that there are discernable genetic differences between races.
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April 29, 2010 4:28pm
jinpy

chiz, thanks for the explanation on variation and the example, your comments have got me thinking — race can’t be ruled out entirely, I agree and my basic thinking was naive statistically.

But theres still something iffy with the idea IMO. For example, what about a mixed-race child, what race are they?

To validate the reality of race as a meaningful category surely you would have to be able to reasonably categorize the world into the different races — what categories would these be and how do you deal with the overlaps?

I’m going to try and get into this — seems like a good one on the topic…
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html

Excerpt from abstract:
“Clustering of individuals is correlated with geographic origin or ancestry. These clusters are also correlated with some traditional concepts of race, but the correlations are imperfect because genetic variation tends to be distributed in a continuous, overlapping fashion among populations. Therefore, ancestry, or even race, may in some cases prove useful in the biomedical setting, but direct assessment of disease-related genetic variation will ultimately yield more accurate and beneficial information.
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April 29, 2010 5:45pm
jinpy

This is good too:

http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Lewontin/
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April 29, 2010 5:55pm
chiz

Jinpy the problem is that racial categories don’t have sharp well defined edges. Words like black, maori, indian, chinese etc are all inexact. For any given ethnic group there are people who clearly belong, others who sort of do, and others who only slightly belong. There is,btw, nothing unique to racial categories about this problem. Many words lack precise meanings.
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April 29, 2010 5:56pm
chiz

Jinpy, google for Lewontin’s fallacy.
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April 29, 2010 6:00pm
dad4justice

Another Fourth Reich member in the slammer. Wonder who helped solve that one?
Hi Greg and Rex, no wonder you are called the keystone cops.
Shall I throw stones at the ducks on opening morning?
All will be revealed in the book.
Payback is sweet.
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April 29, 2010 6:26pm
philu

“..MikeNZ (1616) Says:
April 29th, 2010 at 8:47 am

If 25% of voters give their party votes to ACT..”

(heh..!..)

..from 1.6% to 25%..?

is this a new benchmark being set in irrational/delusional optimism..?..by that mikenz..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 29, 2010 6:32pm
philu

.star-bored said:

“..Anyway..at the end of the day we are moving from NZ…just a bit sooner now than previously planned.

party vote ACT…”

but..but..bored..!..you will cause the act vote to drop to 1.5%..if you leave..eh..?

and good news..!..eh..?..your upcoming departure..?

for good..?

…(fingers/toes crossed here..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 29, 2010 6:37pm

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