General Debate 20 April 2010

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gazzmaniac

Sam Morgan reckons he doesn’t pay tax.
My first thoughts were good on him. I wish I could get away with that too. Then I realised that he does, in fact, pay tax. Every time he spends some of his money, he pays GST. As to does everyone, including those who don’t declare or don’t have taxable income. I do agree that the tax burden falls on workers, and it is the middle to high income earners and small businesspeople who pay the most tax, and get the least benefit from doing so.

The article also leans towards the idea of taxing people on their net worth rather than income. I’d suggest that’s a fucken stupid idea, least of all because you can’t really assess somebody’s net worth, and it’s pretty easy to hide money (and wealth will just flow offshore if that happens). I’m more inclined to get rid or severely lower income and company tax and raise GST. Then the likes of Sam Morgan will pay tax on money spent. It’s the only fair way to tax, plus it should promote a savings culture since money earning interest won’t be taxed.
Of course we won’t ever get that, since the government has a vested interest in keeping the masses away from being wealth.
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April 20, 2010 6:19am
Viking2

NZ does U-turn on rights charter
By TRACY WATKINS
Last updated 05:00 20/04/2010

AT THE UN: Maori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples has flown secretly to New York for a speech to the United Nations signing New Zealand up to a declaration on indigenous rights.
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Maori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples has flown secretly to New York for a speech to the United Nations signing New Zealand up to a declaration on indigenous rights.

The speech this morning (NZ time) comes after more than a year of hard negotiations between the Maori Party and National as New Zealand looked increasingly isolated over its repeated refusal to endorse the declaration. It was not confirmed until late last night.

Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd overturned the Howard government’s opposition last year while Canada, one of three other countries including New Zealand that opposed the declaration, is also now likely to support it. Only the United States remains opposed.

Dr Sharples said the decision would help to restore New Zealand’s mana in handling indigenous rights. The declaration set standards for all countries to aspire to.

Labour strongly opposed the declaration, fearing it was too sweeping and labelling it incompatible with New Zealand’s constitutional and legal arrangements and Treaty settlement policy.

It also feared the creation of two classes of citizenship and said the declaration would give indigenous people veto rights over laws made by Parliament.

But Prime Minister John Key stressed that the declaration was non-binding and would not compromise the “fundamentals” of his Government’s approach to resolving Treaty claims. The Government also rejected any suggestion that endorsing the declaration would give Maori, as New Zealand’s indigenous people, the right of veto over parliamentary law.

In its statement to the UN today, the Government stresses the non-binding nature of its support – acknowledging that Maori hold a special status as tangata whenua but emphasising the aspirational nature of the declaration.

WHAT IT MEANS

The UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples is non-binding. It was drafted more than 20 years ago but was adopted by the General Assembly only in September 2007. New Zealand was one of four countries to reject it, though several others abstained. It recognises the rights of indigenous people to self-determination, to maintain their own languages and cultures, to protect their natural and cultural heritage and manage their own affairs.

Disgraceful Govt.
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April 20, 2010 6:48am
starboard

Nice…the koran is now available in maori…and there are now 1600 maori muslim converts in NZ..just what we fucken need.
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April 20, 2010 8:27am
Ed Snack

I’m not sure what Sam means by “pays no tax”. He certainly earns money as a director of Fairfax (about $155K pa apparently) plus other directorships, so he must have direct income in the $200 – $400K mark, on which one assumes he pays income tax, and quite a bit at that. Then he’s worth, what, $230M or so, which presumably is invested somewhere. He may have clever tax accountants (probably has) and so pays less tax than he might.

I bet it’s a case that Sam doesn’t know that he’s paying taxes. If he objects, why not instruct his accountants to be less clever with their arrangements; or, make better investments so he makes a profit.
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April 20, 2010 8:47am
toad

Tim Smith (Nick Smith’s brother):

[Tim] Smith has pleaded guilty to 21 charges brought by ECan, whose councillors were sacked by [his brother] Nick Smith and Local Government Minister Rodney Hide last month.

Tim Smith and his company will be sentenced on the ECan charges, and another 12 charges brought by the city council over fencing and bund issues, in June.

Smith was last week fined $16,000 on charges brought by the city council for failing to have a building consent for a relocatable site shed, which he said was stored temporarily at the company’s 10-hectare Christchurch yard.

The ECan prosecution followed a police-accompanied inspection at the company’s Harewood yard last June, around the same time as Nick Smith was calling ECan “hopeless” in Parliament.

Tim Smith said he used more colourful language.

“I told them their organisation was bloody hopeless and they were all useless bastards who should be sacked,” he said.

“I also told them that with some luck my brother and Rodney Hide would do something about it.

Not a good look, as Double Dipton would say.
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April 20, 2010 8:49am
Pete George

“Nice…the koran is now available in maori…”

It’s not what “we” need, it’s not what I need (or want). But shouldn’t anyone have the freedom to follow any religious beliefs of their choice?
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April 20, 2010 8:49am
david

Nice splash in the mud Toad.
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April 20, 2010 8:53am
joe90

bund issues

A crane operator with “bund issues”, that would be the old ‘oil from arsehole to breakfast’ problem.
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April 20, 2010 8:58am
starboard

It’s not what “we” need, it’s not what I need (or want). But shouldn’t anyone have the freedom to follow any religious beliefs of their choice?

take a look at England Pete ..take a look at England Pete…we dont need/want that shit here. Some things need to be banned. Muslim = bad Pete.
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April 20, 2010 8:59am
SouthernRight

Heres a link that Helen Clark would be proud to implement here in Godzone

http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2010/04/19/school-laptop-spying-case-just-keeps-getting-creepier/
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April 20, 2010 8:59am
krazykiwi

No one is protesting the freedom angle Pete. starboard is expressing what is quite probably a widespread concern at Maori, who have been fed pan-generational hatred towards Europeans, adopting a religion that promotes violence and martyrdom. You should be concered about that. I am.
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April 20, 2010 9:01am
kaya

Pete George – your endless efforts to be seen as the voice of moderation in a rabid world may be well meaning and sincere but sometimes it wears thin. This is one of those times. What krazykiwi said is on the money.
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April 20, 2010 9:08am
gazzmaniac

Islam doesn’t promote martyrdom, it promotes peace. It is the bastardisation of that religion that people are worried about. And I’m just as worried about extremist christians as I am about extremist muslims.
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April 20, 2010 9:09am
starboard

..but you see very few extremist Christians blowing the shit out of themselves and taking 50 innocents with them…
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April 20, 2010 9:11am
Pete George

Why should concerned come into it? Would it be better if we banned Islam?

Should we ban Catholicism because we don’t want abuse shit here?
Should we ban Anglicans? A king’s desire to kill his wives so he could remarry, that sounds shitty.
Should we ban Russians? You know, that that shitty Stalin bastard.
Should we ban Maori? Some of their tribal stuff was shit.
Should we ban Poms? They inflicted a lot of shit in their empire phase.

Maybe we should just ban paranoia.
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April 20, 2010 9:12am
SouthernRight

extremist christians dont generally blow people up
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April 20, 2010 9:12am
gazzmaniac

SouthernRight – now we know why Kevin Rudd gave every kid in Australia a laptop
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April 20, 2010 9:13am
gazzmaniac

extremist christians dont generally blow people up

No, but they are known to kidnap children and make them into soldiers.
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April 20, 2010 9:16am
kaya

Fisher n Paykel’s decision to manufacture products in Mexico looks like it was a winner.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10639488

The executives responsible deserve a hefty bonus.
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April 20, 2010 9:23am
AG

“extremist christians dont generally blow people up”

Ever heard of Northern Ireland? And don’t tell me that was a “political”, not a “religious” matter, ’cause that’s a cop out.
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April 20, 2010 9:23am
kaya

Pete George – I take your point, I saw religion, protestant and catholic,used as an excuse to cause death and mayhem in Northern Ireland for many years. However my concern is still the same re the muslim faith being adopted by Maori.

People who feel disaffected often look for some divine intervention to help them. I would say many who adopt Islam do so because of a perverse admiration of the way they have taken on the “oppressors” from the west. I believe some Maori feel this way about the rest of us “newcomers”. I have no scientific evidence for this belief but I do genuinely believe it and it is something to keep an eye on.
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April 20, 2010 9:32am
Pete George

I think we sometimes forget how lucky we are to live in our time. Anzac reflection comes up with some sobering statistics, especially for blokes.

1,000,000 – approx NZ population in 1914
500,000 – approx male population
103000 (20.6% of males) – served
41317 (8.3% of males) – wounded
18166 (3.6% of males) – killed

Nearly 20% of men who served died
Over 50% of men who served killed or wounded

I don’t know what proportion of the male population would have been children, but assume it was quite high. So the % for men of serving age would be huge.

And we keep grizzling about stuff all, comparatively.
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April 20, 2010 9:34am
Pete George

Kaya – I agree, it is a potential problem, but there is a limit to what a reasonable society can do about trying to prevent potential problems by restricting freedoms, or trying to bash groups because of some sort of association no matter how remote.
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April 20, 2010 9:36am
krazykiwi

gazzmaniac – I can cite an example of a cow eating a chicken. That doesn’t make cows carnivorous (they’re vegetarian) – it just proves that I can find evidence to support my belief that cows are carnivorous. I think you might be adopting the same approach to modern Christianity and atrocities.

History is littered with evidence of people using the religious piety to justify selfish and manifestly inhumane behaviour towards their fellow man. The issue for me it to what extent the modern interpretation of a religion actively promotes such inhumanity. A comparison of teachings at mosques and churches would probably help form a view on this.
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April 20, 2010 9:38am
kaya

Pete George – again agreed, but as stated above I was showing concern, not bashing or advocating any freedom restrictions.
Religions of all hues have the potential to bring out the worst in people.
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April 20, 2010 9:43am
joe90

Here’s a challenge Pete, what percentage of registered senior club cricketers went to WW1 and compare to the national figure.
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April 20, 2010 9:47am
trout

Anybody else watch the Manly-Storm game last night. It was public knowledge that a punter had waged a great deal of money on the Storm to win. In the last ten minutes where Manly were leading but had clearly run out of steam Storm were looking to run over them for the win. Cameron Smith then missed an easy goal kick and then contrived to fumble the ball so that, assisted by another fumble by a Storm player, Manly survived to win. If it were a horse race the Stewards would be investigating and Cameron Smith would be asked to expain his financial affairs.
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April 20, 2010 9:56am
Ryan Sproull

Ever heard of Northern Ireland? And don’t tell me that was a “political”, not a “religious” matter, ’cause that’s a cop out.

It is not a cop-out.
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April 20, 2010 9:57am
side show bob

Another dingbat idea from the lunatic left in the EU. A overseas holiday for the poor? tourism for the underprivileged ? The EU now believes tourism should be a human right and those to poor to travel will have their holiday paid for by EU taxpayers. Fuck these clowns are as mad as maggots.The scheme will cost hundreds of millions a year, it is intended to promote a sense of pride in European culture. Apparently travel is now a human right as well as broadband internet ( Luc will be impressed)
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April 20, 2010 10:40am
Ryan Sproull

side show bob,

It’s a wonder anyone still lives over there!
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April 20, 2010 10:56am
Pauleastbay

A senior Iranian cleric says women who wear revealing clothing and behave promiscuously are to blame for earthquakes……………

And all you people thought it was becausee Wellington was built on a fault line..

Also Topless sunbathing causes global temperature flucuations, not natural events or humans as the fuckwits believe
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April 20, 2010 12:12pm
Chuck Bird

I see Whale has spotted this article in Investigate. Leighton mention it just before noon. Hopefully he will discuss it tomorrow.

Investigate drops a bombshell on Labour

All available lines to New York will be taken up tonight by Labour as they seek guidance from Helen Clark after Ian Wishart dropped a bombshell on Labour in the latest issue of Investigate. This is an epic Tory party style sex scandal, except all the players are Labour elite. It’s got the lot, gay sex, drunken parties, drugs, troughing and bribery.

The article is huge and can be summarised as follows:

* Claims Tim Barnett encouraged a 14 year old to leave school to work in his office. Is this grooming?
* Claims former Mayor Gary Moore also part of enticement with job offers. Labour pals stick together.
* Truancy Officer was Labour supporter and aided and abetted truancy. More pals involved.
* Government money used to fly 14 year old numerous times around country. Troughing.
* Given free reign around parliament and Beehive as a 14–15 year old. WTF!

For the rest

http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2010/04/20/investigate-drops-bombshell-on-labour/
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April 20, 2010 12:27pm
philu

no..it’s because of those ‘promiscuous’ wellington women..who..(weather permitting)..’wear revealing clothing’..

q.e.d..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 20, 2010 12:30pm
Chuck Bird

I see Whale has blogged on Investigate’s article, “Abuse of Trust”.

This goes to show how PC Labour is. Would anything have been said if the 14 year old was a girl and the MP a heterosexual male? I think something would have been said. I can only assume that many Labour MPs and party officials were scared to say too much for fear of being accused of being homophobic. Either that or they could see nothing wrong with a 14 year old boy having sex with mature adult male(s).

Whale summarised as follows:

* Claims Tim Barnett encouraged a 14 year old to leave school to work in his office. Is this grooming?
* Claims former Mayor Gary Moore also part of enticement with job offers. Labour pals stick together.
* Truancy Officer was Labour supporter and aided and abetted truancy. More pals involved.
* Government money used to fly 14 year old numerous times around country. Troughing.
* Given free reign around parliament and Beehive as a 14–15 year old. WTF!

For the rest

http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2010/04/20/investigate-drops-bombshell-on-labour/#comments
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April 20, 2010 1:00pm
wreck1080

Just read about Vodafones new $12 prepay add -on , where for $12 you get 200 minutes of free minutes to all NZ landlines, and vodafone mobiles.

Now, Vodafone could never make such an offer if it were not for their market share.

My opinion, is that Vodafone are using market share in combination with high interconnection fees to put 2-degrees out of business.

2-degrees could never make such an offer as the interconnect fees are way to high.

Disgraceful Vodafone!!
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April 20, 2010 1:25pm
Hurf Durf

And don’t tell me that was a “political”, not a “religious” matter,

But it was.
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April 20, 2010 1:28pm
krazykiwi

wreck1080 – Seems a bit unfair… but then 2-Degrees knew they would be taking on a couple of giants. Much as I like to see the underdog succeed there’s an element of investor beware in there. Think National Mail as another example. (Wished I could have shorted their stock on listing!)
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April 20, 2010 1:30pm
kaya

AG – “Ever heard of Northern Ireland? And don’t tell me that was a “political”, not a “religious” matter, ’cause that’s a cop out.”

It was political, religion was used by those extremists trying to achieve their particular ends. Same as the extremists in Islam. That’s the point I was trying to make and why I used NI as an analogy. It takes something to make people rise up and use violence against others, the vast majority of us are peaceful creatures. Religion is one of those guaranteed to be able to incite. Much more than poverty which is actually a more lgical reason. Go figure. People are irrational.
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April 20, 2010 1:40pm
Pete George

The financial eruption is about to commence?

Volcanic ash cloud: Met Office blamed for unnecessary six-day closure

The government agency was accused of using a scientific model based on “probability” rather than fact to forecast the spread of the volcanic ash cloud that made Europe a no-fly zone and ruined the plans of more than 2.5 million travellers in and out of Britain.

A senior European official said there was no clear scientific evidence behind the model, which air traffic control services used to justify the unprecedented shutdown.

Eleven major British airlines joined forces last night to publicly criticise Nats, the air traffic control centre, over the way it interpreted the Met Office’s “very limited empirical data”.

Legal experts suggested passengers and airlines may be able to sue the Government for more than £1?billion in compensation.
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April 20, 2010 1:41pm
si_rangi

I have been ‘stranded’ in LA since last Thursday since the volcano erupted in Iceland and need to comment here on the amazing service we have recieved from Air New Zealand. They have had people permenantly stationed at the hotel (where they have provided accommodation and meals) who have updated us regularly. The airline, quite frankly, has been brilliant. The four day lay over hasn’t been a complete waste with a trip to Vegas and Dodger Stadium for a baseball game. The latest update we have is that Air NZ is flying a plane up tomorrow for a 11.30 departure to Hethrow. However, given that we have planned our next excursion….The Eagles at the Hollywood Bowl, we won’t be too upset if we are delayed another day.
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April 20, 2010 2:20pm
Manolo

Hat Tip: No Minister

An incredible example of the duplicity of Key’s government, in this case, the words of the incompetent Nick Smith when he was Opposition.

We’re governed by a bunch of venal, self-serving politicians with more colours than a chameleon, who will sell their mothers to stay in power. The National Party is plumbing new depths with people like Key and Smith.

This is what Smith said:

“The appetite of Dr Cullen and this Government for more taxes is legendary, 43 new and increased levies and taxes have been introduced. The latest is the carbon tax. It will add 6c per litre to the price of petrol, 7c per litre to diesel, 6% to all power bills and put the price of coal and gas up by 9%.

This week National launches the axecarbontax.co.nz campaign. The new finely balanced Parliament gives us the opportunity to send the carbon tax the way of the fart tax.

The madness of the Government’s new carbon tax is that New Zealanders will be the only people in the world paying it. It will drive up the costs of living and undermine the competitiveness of New Zealand business for negligible environmental gain.

Labour Ministers may take pride in being toasted at International Climate conferences for being so bold and brave, but there is no justification for New Zealand going out in the cold by itself on this issue.

New Zealand’s greenhouse gas emissions made up only 0.4% of the global total and on a per capita basis our emissions are half those of countries like Australia and the United States. We are the only Southern Hemisphere country with binding legal obligations under Kyoto and giants like China and India have got off scot free.

A further concern of the carbon tax is its impact on inflation, interest rates and the exchange rate. It will add to the costs of fuel and power and these flow right through the economy to basics like food. This puts pressure on inflation, which in turn drives up interest rates and the kiwi dollar. The Government’s carbon tax is a classic example of the way the Government is making things tougher for the productive exporting sector.”
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April 20, 2010 3:20pm
philu

current affairs quizz:..

which oecd country has two former justice ministers facing charges of ripping off mum’n dad investors..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 20, 2010 4:03pm
wreck1080

Base rental car charge LAX Los Angeles: $519 usd, Extra charges: $520usd. For 9 days rental.

Americans are the best at hiding additional fees/taxes and charges. Part of the problem, is that travel insurance rental car cover is limited (only up to $3000nzd) so you must take all the extra cover options at the time of rental.

Doh!!

Anyone have any good tips for car rental from LAX?
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April 20, 2010 4:35pm
krazykiwi

Wreck1080 – Pick up one of these 🙂
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April 20, 2010 4:50pm
RKBee

The World cup Jesus Jones song ..sung by the Feelers.. that got the thumbs down by Garry McCormick and others… The Feelers might get the last laugh.. their own song Stand and be Counted.. has just been picked for the All Whites.
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April 20, 2010 7:42pm
krazykiwi

RKBee – hard to better the Jesus Jones rendition. It’s still sone of my fav’s (showing my age…)
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April 20, 2010 7:45pm
wreck1080

@krazykiwi , Ha, nice. BUt, how did you think i’m getting to LA in the first place 🙂
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April 20, 2010 7:48pm
krazykiwi

@Wrech1080 – Well you asked.
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April 20, 2010 8:01pm
godruelf

Don’t think a lot of Nick Smith but thought 3 News tonight was very poor with the Photo of Nick Smith under the “GUILTY” caption when it was his brother that was the Guilty one.
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April 20, 2010 8:45pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Sounds like a BSA complaint godruelf. Don’t you just love newsreaders having to read out BSA ordered public apologies for inaccurate reporting?
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April 21, 2010 1:43am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

It’s the 21st of April now.

That means it was Hitler’s birthday yesterday. Anyone do anythng special? You know he would be 121 years old if he was still alive today. Pretty much the same age as Jim Anderton.
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April 21, 2010 1:46am
Viking2

So Bill still thinks property owners need taxing.

IRD happy to help no-tax millionaire
4:00 AM Wednesday Apr 21, 2010

1. Facebook
2. Twitter
3. Email
4. Print

Sam Morgan. Photo / Daily Post
Sam Morgan. Photo / Daily Post

Trade Me founder and philanthropist Sam Morgan, who says the tax system is set up so the wealthy, such as himself, do not pay tax, is welcome to send a cheque to the Inland Revenue Department if he wishes, the Finance Minister says.

The Wellington entrepreneur, who founded Trade Me in 1999 and sold it in 2006 to Australian publisher Fairfax for more than $700 million, said he paid basically no tax.

“And that’s not right, but what am I supposed to do?”

Mr Morgan, 32, was estimated to have made at least $227 million from the sale of his business but did not have to pay a capital gains tax.

As he had effectively no income, he paid minimal tax.

The people who paid the most tax were workers, he said.

Finance Minister Bill English said the Government would welcome a contribution from Mr Morgan if he was feeling uneasy about the tax laws.

“He could look to just write out a cheque to IRD. They won’t send it back, they’ll bank it,” said Mr English yesterday.

While Mr Morgan probably did earn some income and pay some tax, the Government needed to make the system fairer so people were paying their fair share of tax, particularly if they had invested in property, he said.

– NZPA
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April 21, 2010 6:50am
Pete George

1. Property investors should pay a reasonable share of tax.

2. Morgan must be spending some money for living so he must be paying GST at least, unless he lives entirely by sponging off others. And he must pay some income tax, unless he offsets all the income he lives off with property investment losses.
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April 21, 2010 7:24am

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