General Debate 19 April 2010

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kevin_mcm

Anyone noticed our tax dollars being used to advertise on the Gotcha blog? Can someone take the cheque book away from these clowns!
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April 19, 2010 9:23am
Pauleastbay

Just what Christchurch needs – Jim Anderton for Mayor.

Begs the question – do the xenophobes down there deserve him?
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April 19, 2010 9:24am
malcolm

But what about the Progressive Party, Jim? Oh that’s right – it’s just a name and a website.
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April 19, 2010 9:34am
Sonny Blount

The eruption in Iceland could help put an end to global warming hysteria.

It should lower global temps for a year or two and certainly make the temperature record ‘uncooperative’ with AGW.

This kind of event is exactly why the models are no good.
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April 19, 2010 10:12am
Bevan

Anyone noticed our tax dollars being used to advertise on the Gotcha blog? Can someone take the cheque book away from these clowns!

You know, Ive been looking and looking and reloading the page, but for the life of me cannot see what you are talking about.
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April 19, 2010 10:25am
Sonny Blount

Theres a depression ad or something at the top of the page. First time I’ve visited his blog in a long time.
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April 19, 2010 10:38am
stephen

This kind of event is exactly why the models are no good.

The effects tend to be temporary – a few years if that.
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April 19, 2010 11:23am
Sonny Blount

Yes but the longer we go without temperatures rising (it could get to 12 years now if this has any effect), the less and less patience taxpayers will have to having their money stolen.
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April 19, 2010 11:28am
Barnsley Bill

A fairly smart use of taxpayers dollars I think. If they are going to advertise they are right to put the ads where they are going to get the most eyeballs.
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April 19, 2010 11:34am
Pongo

Temperatures are irrelevant all you have to do is move your theromometer to the end of a runway, failing that take NIWAs approach and adjust them after the fact using Salingers 1981 methods.
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April 19, 2010 11:47am
Pete George

Odd then how Sir Peter Gluckman responded on Q&A:

PAUL How can we be so sure, tell the people at home again, how can we be so sure that climate change, or current climate change is human induced?

SIR PETER I think that there is no other explanation possible for the rate of change in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, there’s absolute lots of evidence that humans are degrading the planet in many ways, and the modelling and the analyses make it very clear that human activity is responsible for the way of the change in the planet.

PAUL Well let me put this to you. Just over a week ago the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition who I guess are anti emissions reductions, and they’re sceptics, the Honourable Barry Brill who I think served in Sir Robert Muldoon’s government, says you Sir Peter Gluckman are not qualified to pontificate about climate change, you have neither the expertise nor the personal attributes.

SIR PETER Well I won’t comment on the last bit, I’m not a climate change expert, obviously not, I am an advisor to the Prime Minister and like other science advisors around the world we’re responsible for interpreting what the scientific advice from the scientific community as a whole is to governments and what it means.

PAUL Yes but he says in writing your lengthy dissertation shortly after you became the Chief Science Advisor, and not being a climate change scientist that you became political, not technical, not scientific.

SIR PETER I’m not going to debate with this Dr Brill or Mr Brill, all I’m gonna say is every science advisor in the major democracies concurs that climate change is an important issue and has to be addressed now.

http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/sir-peter-gluckman-interviewed-paul-holmes-3470802

But what would he and all the other country science advisers know, and what access would they have to relevant information? Surely they must read what the experts say on Kiwiblog.
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April 19, 2010 11:55am
Manolo

Hat Tip: Lindsay Mitchell:

Take a look at some of the unbelievable policiies the Liberal Democrats are promoting in the UK (and implemented if they gain power):

Remove pre-interview sex discrimination with a ‘no name’ policy for job applications to stop employers making conscious (or subconscious) judgments about whether a woman can ‘do the job’.)

Scrap tuition fees for all part-time and full-time degree courses

Help women over 25 going back to study by paying the fees for their first Level 3 qualifications

A Citizen’s Pension for all based on residency and set above the poverty line, helping women who took time out from work to raise children. This would rise in line with earnings or inflation, whichever is higher

Recruit and train thousands more health visitors and midwives. These professionals will advise new mothers and families on parenting skills including, advice on the health of a baby and support for relationships, which can become particularly trained when a new child arrives.

Protect children from body image pressure by preventing the use of altered and enhanced images in advertising aimed at under 16s, through changes to Advertising Standards Authority rules. We would work with industry regulators and professionals to find ways to ensure that children have access to more realistic portrayals of women (and men) in advertising

Ensure that late night trains have a well-publicised ‘Secure Carriage’. This carriage would be where a guard would sit

Develop a ‘stopping on request’ element to night bus services so that women and men can get off the bus in between bus-stops, to minimise the distance they need to walk on their own
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April 19, 2010 12:14pm
philu

they all sound like sound ideas..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 19, 2010 12:17pm
Caleb

Pete, i like this part:

PAUL You have been in Washington talking to the Chief Science Advisor there, what kind of reaction did you get to a suggestion that we can get scientific initiatives like the Global Alliance Fund going, I mean is he keen on that idea, based so much on science and business of science in New Zealand?

SIR PETER A lot of the discussion with Dr John Holdrum was about the fact that science is an international activity, and the Americans see that they already have a large number of scientific activities jointly with the New Zealanders such as in the Antarctic and clearly they’ve been along with New Zealand the leaders in promoting the Global Research Alliance in climate change. A lot of our discussion however wasn’t actually about that, it was actually about the harm, around the issues you’ve raised before, has done to the public confidence and the integrity of the science system, and what John and I were discussing was initiatives that people like himself and myself need to take to restore and to ensure that the public has confidence in the science system as a whole.

Sir Peter openly saying most of his discussions were based on how to sell this ‘settled science’. I can only wonder what initiatives they came up with?
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April 19, 2010 12:28pm
James Stephenson

More proof that issuing tickets is more important to the police than actual, you know, safe driving behaviour on the roads:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3595827/Motorcyclist-killed-in-collision-with-police-car
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April 19, 2010 12:29pm
Chuck Bird

Abuse of Trust

Has anyone read this article in the latest Investigate? It is about Hamish Jevan Goulder who was just 14 year old when he quit school to begin working in Labour MP Tim Barnett’s Christchurch office.

I will not go into too many details but allegations made by Goulder may be the reason Tim Barnett is no longer in Parliament.

Goulder is now 21 and standing for Council in Wellington.

I will quote Ian’s summing up.

As for the abuse of trust, did Labour abuse its trust in looking after a troubled 12 year old badly, or did Jevan Goulder abuse the trust of a political party who’d taken him under their wing? Ultimately, that may be a question only forgiveness, and the voters of Wellington can decide.
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April 19, 2010 12:37pm
Sonny Blount

I would think that Peter Gluckman would know alot less about global climate that Richard Lindzen.
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April 19, 2010 12:40pm
Pete George

Richard Lindzen: To be sure, man’s emissions of carbon dioxide must have some impact. The important question, however, is how much.

Read more: http://www.modbee.com/2010/04/04/1114073/climate-change-is-simply-natural.html#ixzz0lVGAvLSH

And: “Being skeptical about global warming does not by itself make one a good scientist nor does endorsing global warming make one per se a good scientist,”
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April 19, 2010 12:58pm
Sonny Blount

Of course, the question is how much influence do we have compared to volcanoes and other natural things.

Here is a speech he used that quote in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS-cLp1PEGQ

He is good on a panel imo when his mild manner lets other commentators make fools of themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McsZ1U20W0M
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April 19, 2010 1:37pm
Pete George

Lindzen comes across to me as reasoned caution, which is refreshing amongst the many who are far less knowledgeable and make more noise .

Even if human emissions do end up having a nett warming effect once all the positive and negative feedbacks are taken into account the volcano shows how much we are all at the mercy of nature. Everything we do over a century or two could be overridden or overshadowed by a bloody great eruption. Time will tel how much effect the current one has.

The last few days does highlight how extensive and complex our transport system is. It’s amazing it functions so well most of the time, something I think we tend to take for granted, but it just takes one unnatural (eg 9-11) or natural event to throw a huge spanner in the jets that has a flow on effect around the world.

I hope the airlines get fully operational soon and nothing larger than a bit of ash falls out of the sky, I’m booked to head to Europe in a few weeks.
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April 19, 2010 2:07pm
backster

CHUCK……….Yes that article certainly gives an insight into the character and activities of the Labour Party during the Clark years. Just as well they had a compliant media.
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April 19, 2010 2:08pm
big bruv

Ponder this…..

I have a mate who has two employees currently stuck in Europe, they were due back at work this week, one is a hard working man who is a highly valuable staff member, the other is a shit stirring union low life who my mate would gladly see the back of.

The valuable staff member contacted my mate over the weekend as soon as he realised he would not be back in time, he is making every possible effort to get back as soon as possible and was most apologetic about being held up by circumstances beyond his control

The union low life only contacted my mate’s business this morning, he left a message with the receptionist that said nothing more than “stuck in Europe, don’t know when I will be back”

Both staff members have used up all of their annual leave on these trips, the question my mate has is this…..can he continue to pay the salary for one of these workers but not the other?
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April 19, 2010 2:16pm
wreck1080

The currently erupting Icelandic volcano has been linked in the past to a much larger angry sister, named Katla.

If Katla erupts, Europe can look forward to a very cold winter too.
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April 19, 2010 2:33pm
Pete George

BB – if it is paying more than he is legally required to pay he can choose to pay one and not the other. The Holidays Act determines minimum coverage only.

The employee is responsible for keeping their boss reasonably informed – ie the employee cannot be sacked if they have a reasonable excuse for not getting back to work after their holiday and advise their employer. While the second example you give didn’t do a wonderful job of informing they have probably met basic requirements.

As far as I understand it the employee is responsible for what in effect is extended leave. The employer can allow them to take leave without pay, or to take holidays in advance (they have some days accrued but not yet due). Travel insurance may or may not cover lost wages as well as additional expenses.

If the employer chooses to give additional paid leave to one employee and not another it’s entirely up to them. They could give them additional annual leave (similar to one off long service leave), or simply start paying them normal pay.

But an employer should be cautious about what they offer until they know the full extent of the extended absence – if they offer up front to pay for all the absent time they could be in a bind if the volcano keeps blowing and the wind keeps blowing the wrong way.
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April 19, 2010 2:38pm
Captain Neurotic

Big Bruv – In an idealistic and glorious world where the Government did not interfere with the private investment of citizens into their own business, you friend would have the autonomy to decide which employees were effective and keep and whom were not efficient and remove them.

However…. given the restriction and regulation of the laws of employment i would highly recommend that your friend bit-the-bullet and continued to pay the wages of this particular fuck stain or else the might of the Union will be grasping his balls for a PG. However I’m sure that eventually this scrotum will stuff up and therefor he will legitimate allowed to remove him.

What a sad world we live in when this is the case….

Your friend could always just reshuffle the organisation of his business and by chance have made this guy redundant though?
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April 19, 2010 2:47pm
big bruv

Thanks Pete and Captain Neurotic.
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April 19, 2010 2:53pm
Pete George

BB – note that it could easily be weeks instead of days of extended leave.

It could be tough on anyone caught overseas, but life is sometimes tough. The volcano is not an employer’s responsibility. I work for a very good employer but wouldn’t expect additional paid leave in this situation. If it was a day or few they may or may not pay anyway, but weeks is a huge ask.
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April 19, 2010 3:02pm
wreck1080

Saw something interesting. The average house price in greater Vancouver is nearly 1.3 million NZD.

That is crazy!

Is Vancouver the richest city in the whole world?
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April 19, 2010 3:06pm
big bruv

Pete

I know in the case of the valued worker my mate would gladly continue to pay him for a few weeks to come, having said that, this particular worker will find a way of getting back even if he has to drive right across Europe to do so.

The other bludger will just sit on his arse and do nothing, he will see this as extra leave and will no doubt kick up merry hell if he is not paid.
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April 19, 2010 3:18pm
Brian Smaller

So a cop does a U-turn and collects a bike, killing the rider. Good thing it wasn’t a van load of kids on a school trip. Anyone else would be done for dangerous driving causing death I am sure. You are supposed to make sure that you can perform your manouvre safely, and if you cannot tell what is coming over the brow of the hill right next to you, then it isn’t safe. I expect Nanny Joyce to be on the job banning U-Turns forthwith.
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April 19, 2010 3:21pm
RightNow

BB- the friend would potentially be providing one with an unfair advantage over the other if they aren’t treated the same, which could bite him in the proverbial if the bludger wanted to take a case against him.
On the other hand, it’s a good opportunity to give him a written warning, which gets him one step closer to the door.
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April 19, 2010 3:25pm
big bruv

Sound to me like the best way of getting around having to pay the union low life is to offer the good worker (who has been with the company for some considerable time) a term of long service leave.

Cheers lads.
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April 19, 2010 3:30pm
Pete George

It isn’t about unfair advantage if he offers one worker something extra. Extra leave (to what is legally required), like bonuses outside employment agreements, can be offered at the discretion of the employer. One employee doesn’t have to know what the other employee gets.

If it were only for a day or two then it may save hassle to just give the extra days as paid. But it’s quite possibly going to be week/s. It still may be a judgement by the employer on whether it’s worth the possible grief if the worker complains. But it may not be any problem, he may just accept it.

Others possibilities:
Employee is offered it as paid time, but declines saying his travel insurance covered it.
Employee is offered it as paid time and accepts it, plus pockets the travel insurance cover
Employee is not offered it as paid, employee kicks up even though it was covered by insurance
Employee is not offered it as paid, employee kicks up, not covered by insurance
Employee is not offered it as paid, no insurance cover, just accepts it as an adverse act of nature
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April 19, 2010 3:46pm
Dave Mann

On the question of Climate Change, I have often wondered why these bozos who pretend to measure temperatures etc are called ‘scientists’ at all?

Yes, an important part of the scientific method involves measurements, but surely ‘science’ is much more than that? Even at school, our science projects involved experimentation… so why are these people called ‘climate scientists”? What actual ‘science’ do any of them do? Most of what these time and money wasting parasites seem to do is wanking over computer ‘models’ – all of which are probably ejaculating faulty projections based on faulty or incomplete data.

I think its time we stopped referring to ‘climate scientists’. They don’t actually experiment with anything do they? They don’t physically introduce real variables to any actual tangible model climate and obsereve the results. All they do is make pretend ‘measurements’ and projections. This isn’t science. I call bullshit on the whole discipline of ‘climate science’.
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April 19, 2010 4:07pm
Sonny Blount

I think you find also Dave, that there are quite a few skeptical scientists amongst those actually involved in gathering measurement data compared to those running computer models.
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April 19, 2010 4:22pm
Pete George

sci·ence –noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6. a particular branch of knowledge.
7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.

You can argue about whether it is good science or not, but it’s difficult to argue against it being science.

A lot of science does not involve experiments. It’s not easy to experiment on a global basis, and we haven’t found any similar accessible planets we can do climate experiments on.
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April 19, 2010 4:25pm
Dave Mann

Yes Sonny… but even the term ‘skeptical’ is a misnomer when used in the contect of a real science isn’t it? I mean…. belief (and its opposite, skepticism) has no place in scientific thinking and therefore makes no sense at all when used in the scietific context.

Two definitions of scepticism are a) “denying or questioning the tenets of a religion: a skeptical approach to the nature of miracles and b) inclined to skepticism; having doubt: a skeptical young woman. (source: dictionary.com)

How are these two attitudes at all RELEVANT to the scientific method?
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April 19, 2010 4:34pm
Chicken Little

Claes Johnsons blog – for a glimpse into the mathematics behind Climate models and why they’re all wrong – if anyones interested.

I think he knows more than Gluckman too.

Pete George – Is that fence paling up your arse hurting yet?
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April 19, 2010 4:48pm
Dave Mann

Hey Pete…. just looking at your definitions of ‘science’, then I would say my assertion that climate science is NOT science holds good because the whole skaky edifice really fails to stand up to most of the principles outlined in your 7 points:

“facts or truths systematically arranged” ??? what???
“observation and experimentation” pull the other one hahahaha!!!
“systematized knowledge in general.” more properly stated as systematized lies and propaganda for the purpose of gaining grant moneys from taxpayers worldwide
“knowledge gained by systematic study” systematic distortion of the facts, actually
“reflecting a precise application of facts or principles” where does this happen in ‘climate science’?

I reassert my position that ‘climate’ science’ is actually an oxymoron.
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April 19, 2010 4:58pm
Sonny Blount

To be science it must be falsifiable.

What observational result would falsify AGW? There has to be one for it to be science.
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April 19, 2010 5:01pm
Pete George

The Chicken Little/Dave Mann approach to climate change is a long way further removed from science.
ALL climate models use the same wrong mathematics?
ALL lies and propaganda?

It’s not about sitting on the fence. It involves such a complex group of factors I doubt it will ever be “falsified” or “proven” – many things interacting with a moving target. It is a number of sciences that affect each other.

Varying outputs of the sun.
Varying orbit and inclination of the earth.
Clouds.
Air pollution (different types).
Ozone layer and holes.
Weather patterns.
Sea currents.
Ice cap behaviour.
Volcano emissions.
Etc

All interacting with various positive and negative influences, feedbacks, tipping points etc.
I’m with Lindzen to an extent, it is known humans influence all that, there is doubt about how much.

To write it all off as lies and all wrong is simply expressing non-scientific beliefs.
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April 19, 2010 5:17pm
Hurf Durf

The United States doesn’t have an effective plan for dealing with Iran’s nuclear programme. The Obama Administration has existed for OVER! A! YEAR! Something to think about when you read Matt McCarten getting a thrill up his leg over Barky getting such fearsome rogue states as Ukraine, Chile and Canada to give up their spent nuclear fuel.
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April 19, 2010 5:29pm
Dave Mann

Actually, Pete, I would rather you don’t write about my opinions in the context of ‘beliefs’, thank you very much. I think the scientific method has vastly benefitted mankind and it is thanks to science (real science) that we have made such huge progress since the industrial revolution.

These are not ‘beliefs’. I do not ‘believe’ in science. I ‘think’ that the evidence is there to support the hypothesis that science has benefitted humanity immensely.

I also think that the whole area of ‘climate science’ has been hijacked and propagandised to the point where it is more about ‘belief’ than ‘facts’ or ’emprically verifiable observations’. This to the poit where it is extremely doubtful whether or not anybody can recognise the ‘science’ from the ‘beliefs’. This is where the problem lies.
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April 19, 2010 5:34pm
Chicken Little

Come on Pete – do you not agree that there is, at a minimum, there is doubt about the science because of

– bad data practices and unrecorded method?

– seemingly unethical behavior by the top practitioners of Climate science?

– the politicisation of the subject by bureaucrats of every stripe?

– distorted and dis-truthful hype by media and others to ‘sell’ the story?

We’ve seen all these things in the last few months yet you still seem happy with the status quo?

Go and have a read of Claes, he’s a interesting chap.
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April 19, 2010 5:38pm
Pete George

I’ll read tonight Chicken.

I agree further doubt has been added due to all of the reasons you give. And add to that, on top of genuine questions, there has been a lot of misinformation, deliberate attempts to discredit, poorly informed opposition etc etc.

Ok Dave, not your beliefs, what you think instead.
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April 19, 2010 5:42pm
Guy Fawkes

More nonsense from the Alarmists!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/7604188/Volcanic-ash-cloud-Global-warming-may-trigger-more-volcanoes.html

Apparently extra taxation will cure it.
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April 19, 2010 6:59pm
MikeNZ

Manalo
brought this to our attention.
,i>Take a look at some of the unbelievable policiies the Liberal Democrats are promoting in the UK (and implemented if they gain power):

Remove pre-interview sex discrimination with a ‘no name’ policy for job applications to stop employers making conscious (or subconscious) judgments about whether a woman can ‘do the job’.) – So whats wrong with that?

Scrap tuition fees for all part-time and full-time degree courses – So what’s wrong with that?

Help women over 25 going back to study by paying the fees for their first Level 3 qualifications – age possibly too young, should be 30+ but so what?

A Citizen’s Pension for all based on residency and set above the poverty line, helping women who took time out from work to raise children. This would rise in line with earnings or inflation, whichever is higher – with no contribution this would be silly.

Recruit and train thousands more health visitors and midwives. These professionals will advise new mothers and families on parenting skills including, advice on the health of a baby and support for relationships, which can become particularly trained when a new child arrives. – whats wrong with that? great idea, our own plunket before the labour feminists did a good job.

Protect children from body image pressure by preventing the use of altered and enhanced images in advertising aimed at under 16s, through changes to Advertising Standards Authority rules. We would work with industry regulators and professionals to find ways to ensure that children have access to more realistic portrayals of women (and men) in advertising – whats wrong with that, good on them.

Ensure that late night trains have a well-publicised ‘Secure Carriage’. This carriage would be where a guard would sit – what a great idea, why hasn’t it been operating before now?

Develop a ’stopping on request’ element to night bus services so that women and men can get off the bus in between bus-stops, to minimise the distance they need to walk on their own – what a great idea, NZ bus companies take note!

So they have a silly idea about pensions. I think people realise in this day and age that that isn’t going to be tenable, unless they are looking for the immigrant market or the jobless.
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April 19, 2010 7:00pm
MikeNZ

Thanks for the link Chicken, I loved the Penguin logic just super.
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April 19, 2010 7:05pm
Sonny Blount

Just stick to the science Pete. It currently tells us no AGW. In any debate you can identify someone on the other side who is badly behaved if you go looking for it.

If you find some agreement with Lindzen you’ll see here he thinks Enron was and now Goldman Sachs amongst others are bankrolling AGW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmQtnZXxE2I&feature=related
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April 19, 2010 7:05pm
krazykiwi

It’s great to see AGW apologists starting to unravel at rate now exceeding that of the theory itself. I’m 100% certain of this, based in data I’ll fabricate, and on method that I’ll not publish for verification 🙂
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April 19, 2010 7:33pm
Steve

Thanks Sonny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmQtnZXxE2I&feature=related

I will watch it tomorrow. Some here cannot watch 2 minutes let alone 32 minutes. The start sounds interesting.
Any excuse to Tax others
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April 19, 2010 7:35pm
kaya

wreck 1080 – re property prices in Vancouver, the Chinese, awash with disneyland US dollars are spending up large before the whole Ponzi scheme implodes and the dollar falls down a hole. Better to get your hands on real assets!

International buyers are playing a “very significant” role in the upturn, according to Ross McCredie, president of Sotheby’s International Realty Canada. “Over half of the homes sold over $5 million in Vancouver sold to mainland Chinese,”

A dairy farm or two in NZ would be a nice addition to the portfolio…..
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April 19, 2010 9:50pm

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