General Debate 11 April 2010

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Nookin

What’s happened to Carter’s kicking?
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April 11, 2010 9:54am
Viking2

Sounds lawyer faces complaint
By David Fisher
4:00 AM Sunday Apr 11, 2010

Paul Davison, QC, is under scrutiny for a speech about the Scott Watson trial for the murders of Ben Smart and Olivia Hope. Photo / Brett Phibbs

One of the country’s top lawyers is under police scrutiny over claims he breached court orders made in the Scott Watson trial.

Police National Headquarters is reviewing alleged breaches of name suppression by Queen’s Counsel Paul Davison, who prosecuted Watson for the murders of Olivia Hope and Ben Smart.

The matter was referred to police by the Crown Law Office after Watson’s father contacted the Solicitor General.

Chris Watson complained after finding the names of suppressed witnesses on the internet. They were contained in a speech by Davison to the Auckland Medico-Legal Society in 2004.

Davison named four witnesses with name suppression and identified two others by family connection.

More @
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=10637662&pnum=0

The suppression orders were made during the three-month trial that ended with Scott Watson’s conviction.
XXXIXXX
CCID: 31814

He has never admitted the murders and is the focus of a campaign to have the conviction overturned.

Chris Watson wrote to the Solicitor General stating: “As chief prosecutor of Scott Watson there can be no excuse for being unaware of the suppression orders applying to these people, or as an officer of the court, any excuse for flouting them.

“For over 10 years I have observed these suppression orders out of some residual respect for justice system and for the people concerned.

“It is disconcerting to find that a supposed legal professional with, again supposedly, a greater understanding and respect for the law, has breached these orders with impunity.”

A Crown Law Office spokeswoman confirmed the complaint had been referred to Police National Headquarters. She said breaches of suppression orders were for police to investigate as possible criminal offences.

Headquarters spokesman Grant Ogilvie said police received the file a month ago.

It was being assessed before being assigned to an officer for investigation: “Whoever carries out the investigation and its scope will be determined by the findings of that assessment.”

Davison said he was unaware his speech was on the website and had asked the society to remove it as soon as he was alerted by the Crown Law Office.

“The form of the address appearing on the website contained reference to certain witnesses whose names had been suppressed for publication by the trial judge,” he said.

The inclusion of those names in the copy of the speech on the internet was “inadvertent”.

Davison did not respond to questions over whether his verbal speech also included names that were suppressed.

Auckland Medico-Legal Society former president Dr Ian Civil said the speech was taken off the website last month after Davison raised concerns.

“There can’t have been any issue that was perceived by Paul Davison at the time he provided that written report for us to publish,” he said.

david.fisher@hos.co.nz
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April 11, 2010 10:00am
tristanb

R.I.P. Jonah! (Oh he’s not dead.)
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April 11, 2010 10:03am
Viking2

Police confirm their status. They become twits.!

Bay police make Twitter first
Lyle McMahon lyle@thesun.co.nz
11 Apr 2010

The Bay of Plenty police district has made a Twitter first by becoming New Zealand’s first police district to use the online social media.
Bay of Plenty district operations manager, inspector Scott Fraser, says Bay of Plenty Police are constantly looking for new ways to communicate with its communities and members of the public and using Twitter is one way to achieve that.
“With the changes in technology we have seen in recent years, large numbers of people are increasingly getting their news and updates online, and more people are engaging with others in a social and business-related context through online media.”
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April 11, 2010 10:05am
Viking2

Missing pieces in the Ben Smart and Olivia Hope case
By David Fisher
4:00 AM Sunday Apr 11, 2010

More than a decade after Scott Watson was sentenced to life imprisonment for the murders of Ben Smart and Olivia Hope, questions remain about the safety of his conviction. Last week, chief reporter David Fisher re-enacted a crucial boat trip that – incredibly – police have never taken. He made some disturbing discoveries.
More interesting points at.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10637699&pnum=0
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April 11, 2010 10:23am
s.russell

SHOCK NEWS!

Matt McCarten talks sense
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April 11, 2010 10:28am
reid

You know it’s a real sad commentary on the system that once the first case has been heard and appeal refused, that forever thereafter questions of evidence are inadmissible.

Time after time we have seen this principle result in prima facie unsafe convictions.

Davidson alleges that the courts have properly considered the speed evidence. Well, what did they say when the fact was raised that to reconcile the arrival times with the witness statements, the boat would have to exceed maximum hull speed and thereby violate the laws of physics. What precisely I wonder, did they say when that point was raised?
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April 11, 2010 10:43am
Luc Hansen

Does anyone have an up to date figure for our external public and private debt? Or can tell me where to find it? I need it to work out our ranking of external debt to GDP ratio. The Herald has kindly provided the info for GDP and total government debt, but I presume part of the government debt is held locally.
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April 11, 2010 10:58am
F E Smith

That is an interesting article, Viking2. Of course, much of Watson’s fate rests on Kristy McDonald QC, who spent much time at the Crown Law Office as a prosecutor, and even today regularly sits on the Police Disciplinary Tribunal. She has also been involved in several high profile cases over the years, including acting as Counsel for the Police in the Commission of Inquiry into Police Conduct.

So, of course, she will be completely unbiased and have no prejudicial favour toward the police from all of her years prosecuting on their behalf…

Is it possible that the MoJ is expecting a bit of a Val Sim job to be done here? Why not appoint a truly independent QC, rather than one with strong connections to both the Police and the MoJ?

Ah well.
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April 11, 2010 10:59am
Luc Hansen

Regarding Scott Watson, I was amazed any case could go ahead after the initial police identikit pic of the suspect was so far off the beam when Watson was shown clean shaven and tidy. He’s not my kind of guy, but enough contrary evidence is coming out that it is an injustice that there is not a full public enquiry into the matter.

As there should also be in the Tamihere case, where the male was found in a different area to that proposed by the police and, more importantly, with his watch still on his wrist when police said Tamihere had taken it.

And secret witnesses should have no place in our justice system – they are simply bribed to tell the police whatever suits.
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April 11, 2010 11:04am
malcolm

At Scott Watson’s trial, Davison said of the Cook Strait-Erie Bay trip: “It doesn’t matter quite how you do the arithmetic of the distance and the time and all the rest of it, because the times of these events in every instance have to be taken as being a little bit fluid.”

I would be interested to hear what the defence had to say on this. Basically Davison is saying “don’t think too much about this – just take my word for it”. Scott would have been well aware of the speed of this boat and the distance and tides involved so I wonder they this wasn’t contested more thoroughly?
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April 11, 2010 11:13am
Viking2

FES. Is that a touch of irony there. Agree completely and a justice from outside of NZ should be asked. Preferably one that is hard on counsel and police but there you go the womens dept. got the nod. Power told me that he gets letters about this case almost daily(before the election). Sometimes he lets us down with his choices. If he would man up a bit and be his own person he is a good character but manning up is what he needs to do and toss out the toss pots that give him poor advice.
He needs to do what he should do rather than what he’s told by the hoipoli and the justice sleazes. All protecting their own behinds. Pope would be as bad as they get in this.

Like Ellis, Watson just could not have done this. Physically impossible. Always has been and always will be.
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April 11, 2010 11:20am
Viking2

malcolm; His defense was like Bains defense at the time. Piss poor.
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April 11, 2010 11:22am
F E Smith

Malcolm, the case was contested thoroughly by the defence (after all, it took three months) but legal aid didn’t then (under the old system) and won’t now pay for the sort of extensive investigations that it would take to do these tests. Not to mention that the boat would have been in police hands at the time and I am pretty sure they wouldn’t be letting the defence out with the boat for one moment.

The biggest surprise came on the last day, when the Crown introduced a completely new theory that hadn’t been raised in the case at all, and the judge let them close on it!!!

They have had so many witnesses recant their evidence that the conviction has to be unsafe, whatever the truth about Watson’s involvement in the matter.
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April 11, 2010 11:24am
Viking2

FES. I also thought that it was interesting that Davidson QC has breached the suppression orders on the witnesses. Assuming he’s no slug then it would have to have been a deliberate act on his part or the part of others in the Medico- legal Club in 2004. Sometime ago indeed and only recently discovered by Chris Watson.
So what was the reason a QC would deliberately breach suppression orders that he was implicated in putting in place?
Guilt maybe?

Perhaps Whaleoil can add to this.
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April 11, 2010 11:28am
F E Smith

Viking, defence lawyers can only put forward the case that they have the funds to work with. Many a time we ask for money for forensic tests and mostly we are turned down. Most defence lawyers only ever get to work with the results of police test that the police see fit to disclose (and I am sure there are many times that unfavourable tests don’t get disclosed to the defence).

Why is this? Because every lawyer knows that there isn’t a level playing field in the NZ criminal justice system, it is always tilted in the Crown’s favour. Our politicians admit this, as does the law society, but both groups also acknowledge that giving the defence equality of arms in criminal cases would cost the country millions more dollars than the $100 million we spend on legal aid now (although that includes Civil, Family and especially Treaty of Waitangi in that figure).

Everybody charged with an offence wants the benefit of legal aid because they don’t usually get an award of costs if the prosecution fails. This is in direct contrast to the UK, where there is almost always an award of costs to the defence if the prosecution fails, which means that more people are willing to fund their defence privately. This would make a huge difference in NZ.

Of course, when we get the sniffy treatment from the Herald, telling us that it is unfortunate that we say legal aid rates are too low, then what point is there in changing the system? Note they don’t say rates are too low, just that we shouldn’t say they are too low!

Bain’s first trial, which is what I think you refer too (seeing he won the second, so they can’t have been that bad) was hampered by a judge who wouldn’t let a lot of the relevant evidence in. That is why the first trial took two weeks and the second one three months. Also, the issue of forensic testing is relevant in that case also, as the first one had no defence forensic testing and the second one had a great deal of it.

Bain’s second trial, whether you agree with the verdict or not, shows what happens when the defence gets funding closer to what the police spend in a trial (and don’t forget that the police had something in the order of 20-30 officers working on that second trial, while the defence had the lawyers plus Karam).
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April 11, 2010 11:34am
Viking2

FES. If the police were being unduly restrictive with the boat then surely Watsons lawyer could have asked a judge to order the boat over to them for the effort of testing the journey times. I seem to recall that there was debate on the theory of the travel times based on hull speeds.
Sooner we go to a system of establishing the truth and independent Prosecuting Service the sooner crime and justice in NZ will take a leap forward.
Especially now that O’Connor is bleating about police corruption.
Now what was that about. He didn’t have that to say yesterday for no reason. Did he?
Something stinks in the wind.
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April 11, 2010 11:35am
nickb

FES have you read the Sunday Herald article today about it?
Very interesting, I have to say some of the evidence (or lack thereof) tying Watson to the murders is disturbing. And there was even a suggestion that the hair of Olivia Hope recovered from Blade may have been planted, as there was a 1cm long slit in the evidence bag which was not explained.
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April 11, 2010 11:36am
F E Smith

Why would Davidson QC breach the orders? Most likely he forgot about them while relating anecdotes from the trial!

The only other possibility is that he didn’t think such an obscure organisation would attract any publicity.

But I tend to favour the former of the possibilites.
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April 11, 2010 11:36am
F E Smith

NickB, yes, I have read it. I have known about the possible plant of the hairs for some time now.

More interestingly, I have a mate who saw the two masted ketch with round port holes and a blue stripe down the side in the area just a few days later. You know, the boat that the police say didn’t exist? Funnily enough, when he rang the cops to tell them they weren’t interested…
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April 11, 2010 11:39am
Viking2

Happen to agree and I am not a lawyer. But first Treaty if Waitangi crap has no place in the justice system legal aid. That’s a have and a smokescreen to hide the money being dished out.
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April 11, 2010 11:39am
side show bob

Just like to congratulate all the walkers in the Oxfam 100k at Taupo especially the wife and her mates. Got a text this morning at 4.45am the girls had just finished. Well done but I still think you are all bloody mad.
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April 11, 2010 11:40am
F E Smith

Viking, no judge is going to order that. If the prosecution doesn’t want to do something then it is extremely rare for the judiciary to force them to, especially if the suggestion comes from the defence. Tried to argue it a couple of times myself, never got anywhere. Bascially it is the defence’s job to get things like that done and if they don’t have the funding, then tough.

I laughed about O’Connor’s bleat about police corruption. Of course it happens in NZ, but the sort he is talking about is pretty rare today. There was a conviction down in ChCh last year, I think, of a cop who forced sexual favours out of a prostitute because of his position, but most of the problems in the NZ police come not from monetary corruption, but the corruption begat by power. I take the view that most of our cops can’t be bought. Interestingly, O’Connor talks about there being no corruption in his day- well I have had conversations with some of our more ‘experienced’ crims where they have admitted that in the 60’s and 70’s they and their then seniors in the criminal world did in fact pay off policemen from time to time. Those crims share my view, that there is less today than there was then. So somewhere O’Connor inhabited a different world to these guys I have talked with. Mind you, he was only a constable, so may not have got high enough!!!
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April 11, 2010 11:46am
F E Smith

Viking, the biggest legal aid earners are Treaty lawyers.
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April 11, 2010 11:47am
Viking2

Same boat was moored in the Ohiwa Harbour at Ohope early February. Saw it there over several weeks but by then the police had decided it wasn’t what they were looking for.

Davidson didn’t forget, he knows the rules and in my experience people like that giving speeches stick with the story and don’t include names.
Stinks of rotten fish all round this crown case.
Have a neighbor who was in the sounds at the time(living their) and he has a few interesting stories about life down their.

On wonders how Kiwi’s can have any trust in either the justice system or the police top brass when their is so much doubt over the actions of the people involved.

Lots of discussion here at:
http://www.nzcpr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=162&st=0&sk=t&sd=d&hilit=Trial+by+trickery&start=270

going forward.
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April 11, 2010 11:49am
F E Smith

Just think, the Officer in Charge of the investigation is likely to be our next Police Commissioner…
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April 11, 2010 11:53am
nickb

Really FE? Thats quite disturbing. I haven’t really read up enough on the case, but the article in the Herald throws doubts on any jury being able to convict beyond reasonable doubt. Perhaps the most shocking one was the police sketch of the suspect (long shaggy hair and beard) being the polar opposite of Watson on the day of the disappearances (close cropped, clean shaven).
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April 11, 2010 11:55am
F E Smith

Hmm, yes Nick, but anything is possible when you wish hard enough!

Viking, did you see this? http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/a-fair-cop-20100410-rzw2.html

Fortunately that is in Oz, not NZ!
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April 11, 2010 11:58am
malcolm

Ok thanks, Viking and F E Smith. I was out of the country at the time and didn’t follow the case closely but have since read more about it. It does seem to be a very weak case against Scott. Nowhere near as strong as the case against David Bain, just to give a random example.
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April 11, 2010 12:04pm
Viking2

FES. O’Connor didn’t just write that to fill a page in the local gossip column. There is something behind it for sure.

And corrupt cops have been around forever. Used to be a sheep for the freezer or firewood for the winter. You know the stuff. Indeed the case of one ex policeman in ChCh. is just one that got caught. Had a few in the central districts who got away with a lot more than they were ever charged with. Even though their bosses at the time knew. (that from one of the bosses.)
One only has to look closely at the Waimana raids to see that there was corruption driving them. Covert and political but none the less corrupt. Talked with both some of those affected and some police who belatedly realized it was not all at it was made out to be.
Arthur Allan Thomas is probably the first case of note but if you look closely at NZ history you can look at the effort by Senior policeman Mr Cullen who both was responsible for the shooting of miners at the Waihi Gold Mines but was also responsible for the raids on Rua Kenawa and the roundhouse at Maungapohatu in the Urerewa’s and the murder of two of his followers. Something he was never held accountable for.
All this was in the Urewera’s was at the behest of the Govt. and the much vaunted Aprirana Nagata but was about control of the land and forests. The person who engineered the police attacks in 2008 was again a Cullen. One who had risen to be in charge of security and carbon credits etc.
One finds its rather a co incidence that this same person is engaged by the same tribal fights that his predecessor. i.e. Poverty Bay versus Tuhoe.
Even more interesting is that what is probably regarded as the worst mass killing of family in NZ has the same name connection in one known as Margaret Cullen-Bain

Now not a common name is Cullen but well entrenched in our history and in none of these cases with distinction.
So yep corruption been around for a while.

History of the Urewera’s in Judith Binneys fine books. Mihaia and Encircled Lands.
As far as I know the only books written and publicly available about the Maori history of an area that are used as a base for Land Claims.
Tuhoe have had their case written for all to see.
Good on them. And no I’ have nothing to do with Tuhoe.
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April 11, 2010 12:13pm
Viking2

Interesting link, but who should be surprised. The Aussies have Labour Govts (State and National),and Labour unions that are as corrupt as you could be. Violence etc never far below the surface. When the head is corrupt then the body is always going to be sick.
Just follow whats happened over the school building fiasco or the insulation fiasco etc etc.

We may have our problems but this is still a nicer country to live.
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April 11, 2010 12:24pm
Viking2

Waihopai duo hold properties worth half a million
By LEIGH VAN DER STOEP – Sunday Star Times
Last updated 11:19 11/04/2010

Two of the three men who vandalised the Waihopai spy base hold interests in properties worth around half a million dollars, despite claiming they had less than $1000 between them.

But they don’t believe they’ll lose the properties if a $1.1 million damages claim by the Crown goes ahead.

Solicitor-General David Collins QC last week announced that the government would pursue a lawsuit against protesters Adrian Leason, Peter Murnane and Sam Land to recover costs associated with their slashing of a plastic cover which protected one of two satellite interception dishes.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3570413/Waihopai-duo-hold-properties-worth-half-a-million
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April 11, 2010 1:25pm
Viking2

http://ozymandiaswarning.com/boxing-match-bridges-v-brownlee/

Pretty Boy Bridges v’s Tough and Tumble Brownlee.
Simon will need his stylist while Gerry will be fine with a beer.

Boxing Match – Bridges v Brownlee
NEWS MAFIA Add comments
Apr 102010

Tauranga MP Simon Bridges has issued a unique proposal to fellow MP Gerry Brownlee challenging him to a boxing fight. The two MP’s not usually noted for their boxing have both been seen in a Wellington boxing club sharpening their skills this week in preparation.
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April 11, 2010 4:39pm
krazykiwi

British campaigner urges UN to accept ‘ecocide’ as international crime

A campaign to declare the mass destruction of ecosystems an international crime against peace – alongside genocide and crimes against humanity – is being launched in the UK. The proposal for the United Nations to accept “ecocide” as a fifth “crime against peace”, which could be tried at the International Criminal Court (ICC), is the brainchild of British lawyer-turned-campaigner Polly Higgins.
:
Supporters of a new ecocide law also believe it could be used to prosecute “climate deniers” who distort science and facts to discourage voters and politicians from taking action to tackle global warming and climate change.

Prosecution? Ha – bring it on!!
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April 11, 2010 6:48pm
Headcat

Just as Davison and Pope’s NZ Listener article was a sad and pathetic answer to Hunter’s ‘Trial by Trickery, So was the Medico Legal Society talk a similar answer to Hunter’s ‘Murder on the blade. Is it odd that both of these articles appeared mere weeks after the heat went on over the doco and book?
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April 11, 2010 7:00pm
Viking2

Here’s a bit of fun for all.

Where did you lose your virginity?
By SARAH HARVEY – Sunday Star Times
Last updated 10:28 11/04/2010

Was it in the back of a car, in a shed, on the beach, or the more traditional bedroom? Because, as a new TVNZ promotional website says, “everybody lost it somewhere”.

But more to the point – how long did it last, can you remember the other party’s name, and would you acknowledge them if you saw them in the street?

A “virginity map” launched last week to promote TV2’s Kiwi drama Go Girls invites people to relive the sometimes forgettable moment online by posting a virtual “pin” to show where it happened, plus commentary on how it went.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv/3570354/Where-did-you-lose-your-virginity

http://www.gogirlspromo.co.nz/
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April 11, 2010 7:06pm
Steve

@ krazykiwi 6.48
Polly Wolly Doodle all the Day is going to prosecute ‘Climate Change Deniers’ She can stick her ecocide where the global warming sun don’t shine.
It’s just sad that all of the Greens follow the Big Leader. Students and others protest on the bones of their arse and never wonder about Al Whore wasting energy. You stupid people have been taken over by the Commies.

Bring it on, where the f&ck do these watermelons come from? Actually Polly is not a watermelon, she just sees big $$$$$$$’s

Exterminate the evil Greens, tail wagging the dog
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April 11, 2010 7:15pm
Hurf Durf

HAHAAHA, the basis for their cult comes crashing down so they respond by threatening to club you over the head with a fine. The ecomentalists really are the biggest sacks of shit, aren’t they?
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April 11, 2010 7:34pm
Luc Hansen

As are, Hurf Durf, nasty ignoramuses like yourself, steve and viking above.

Instead of peddling your insidious crap on here, you would be better employed spending time in the website of The Royal Society. You can listen to climate change lecture podcasts by some of the finest scientist, including one of our own.

But for you, fiddling while we destroy the lives of millions around the globe, as we do militarily as well, in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine, for example, just enhances your pleasure, doesn’t it? You can shoot harder, faster, can’t you?
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April 11, 2010 9:04pm
Hurf Durf

Oh no! It’s PC Hansen and the Green Police! Leg it!
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April 11, 2010 9:13pm
krazykiwi

hey Luc I’m feeling left out of your list of ecocidial villians. Please add me. Thx
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April 11, 2010 9:14pm
big bruv

” in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine,”

And yet strangely, no mention of Israel.
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April 11, 2010 9:19pm
Banana Llama

“Supporters of a new ecocide law also believe it could be used to prosecute climate deniers”

WAT??

I swear that sentence was code for tighten up on your grouping.
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April 11, 2010 10:11pm
Pete George

Any other Kiwibloggers interested in this?

Back Benches is heading to Dunedin.

Back Benches is well established show talking about the politics and issues of the week over a pint. Come for a beer!

Panellists:
Meteria Turei – Co Leader Greens
Michael Woodhouse – National
Heather Roy – Act
Clare Curran – Labour

With the Mayor and other guests in the audience.
Come around 8 pm to get a seat.
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April 11, 2010 10:15pm

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