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April 16, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General 16 April 2010

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Brian Harmer

Somebody has to be first
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April 16, 2010 8:04am
Buzz Aldrin

Damn. Second again
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April 16, 2010 8:13am
reid

Shift in US-Israel ME policy?

Several officials point out that Mr. Obama has now seized control of Middle East policy himself, particularly since the controversy several weeks ago when Israeli authorities announced new Jewish housing units in Jerusalem during a visit to Israel by Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. Mr. Obama, incensed by that snub, has given Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu a list of demands, and relations between the United States and Israel have fallen into a chilly standoff.

“The president is re-evaluating the tactics his administration is employing toward Israel and the entire Middle East,” said Robert Wexler, a former Democratic congressman who resigned in January to lead the Center for Middle East Peace, a Washington-based nonprofit institution that is working for a peace agreement.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
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April 16, 2010 8:21am
slightlyrighty

I see some cops in the US have gone all Rodney King on a basketball fan, then lied about the whole event to cover their asses, without realising the whole incident had been recorded on security CCTV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcHXAEbUSj8
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April 16, 2010 8:22am
Pete George

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Hard to know. We only see bits of what appears to be happening on the surface, there will be a lot more going on out of sight. And who knows how these things will develop. International diplomacy is a very complex unpredicatable thing.
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April 16, 2010 8:56am
peterwn

Got a card from the local Labour MP the other day – taxpayer funded of course.

It seeks response on three questions:
Support for lowering of power prices through reduced dividends to the Crown?
Support / opposition to Basin Reserve flyover?
Opposition to ACC charge increase and alleged benefit reduction.

What was more interesting was that it sought, as well as name and address, a cell phone number (but not a landline number) and a Email address.

Upon reflection, I do not think the MP or Party would give a hoot about the responses to the questions. Responses are IMO merely sought as a ‘bait’ to have the card returned (at the taxpayer’s expense for postage). What they really want are the cell phone number (for txting) and email so they can bombard people with just how slippery John Key is and similar things.
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April 16, 2010 9:04am
TripeWryter

To Reid:

Israel has exerted inordinate control over the United States since its formation. It’s astonishing, when you think about it, that a country not much bigger than the land area of the Canterbury Plains and with fewer people than Chicago can do that.

Israel has been giving the U.S., the U.N., and the world the finger for a long time.

For decades they were able to get away with it by reminding the world of the horrors of the Holocaust, and also by being able to control U.S. foreign policy by a combination of arm-twisting, lobbying, and mobilising the Jewish vote.

As well, saying something like I have just written was enough in the United States to have you accused of anti-Semitism.

For example, read what happened to General George S Brown, of the United States Air Force, in the 70s, when he made critical remarks about Israel. He in effect got sacked.

So if Obamara can rein them in over the settlements in east Jerusalem, I think that will be good.
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April 16, 2010 9:05am
TripeWryter

I’ve just checked the accuracy of what I wrote about General Brown.

He made remarks about Jews and banks, which could be construed as anti-Semitic, but other remarks were about Israel being a drain on the U.S. taxpayer, which don’t appear to have been.

He was rebuked, but was allowed to continue in his job as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff until he retired in 1978, dying later that same year.

I really should not rely on memory.
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April 16, 2010 9:12am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/10-ways-to-force-the-stinking-rich-to-share-their-wealth/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 9:20am
krazykiwi

Plan to make youths park up powerful cars
Young people will be stopped from driving powerful cars after the Cabinet approved driving changes.

Transport Minister Steven Joyce announced road safety measures aimed at young drivers yesterday.
:
“There is a mobility issue, but on balance … I think it’s pretty straightforward.”
:
The measures include an investigation into vehicle power restrictions for young drivers.

Power restrictions? Our family has three cars. A 5.5L V8 Petrol, a 2.0 Diesel and a 700cc Petrol. The 700cc flea is an order of magnitude more powerful in straight lines and around corners than the diesel. The 5.5L car is festooned with airbags, traction control etc, while the 700cc flea is not. Which is safer?

The answer of course is it depends. The vehicle is a tiny fraction of the equation, while the responsibility of the driver is vast majority.

I’m dismayed that Joyce thinks that by regulating everything that moves (literally!) he can improve driver behaviour. Has he been secretly attending Green indoctrination camps?

We have road rules which comprehensively address dangerous driving. Simply enforce them Joyce. Don’t constrain my young adults (and the majority) of responsible young drivers because you can be bothered enforcing the existing laws.
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April 16, 2010 9:20am
Ryan Sproull

Tripe,

A bit larger than the Canterbury Plains – http://mapfrappe.com/?show=1339

I think you overestimate how much Israel uses the US and underestimate how much the US uses Israel.
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April 16, 2010 9:23am
krazykiwi

phil – Get of your lazy ass and stop stealing from your fellow NZers, because at the moment you are an integrity/dignity-free zone.
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April 16, 2010 9:24am
Ryan Sproull

Phil, if I click on that link, is it just going to be a link to your page linking somewhere else?
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April 16, 2010 9:27am
TripeWryter

Ryan:

That’s pretty bloody cool. All right, so Israel, at a little over 8000 sq miles (about one-sixth of the South Island), is still able to exert a great deal of pressure over the U.S.

The U.S. arms Israel. The U.S. funds Israel — and for what?

The blighted peoples of the rest of the Middle East look at the U.S.- supplied jets, helicopters, artillery, guns and other military hardware the Israelis use on them and hate them.
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April 16, 2010 9:36am
RRM

Cruelty to animals makes me madder than a lot of other crimes for some reason.

Therefore, burning at the stake seems appropriate for the perpetrators of this:
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/7068629/family-cat-set-on-fire/
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April 16, 2010 9:42am
Bandycoot

And then there was the news article I heard this morning wherein our Socialist National Government (well Pansy Wong as Minister for Womens Affairs) indicated that we had a problem in this country with only 9% of company directors being women. Followed by a comment from someone else that perhaps a quota should be instigated.

No justification within the soundbite that is our news service for why this is actually a problem, no comment on possible reasons for the low number, and no suggestion that directors should be appointed based on skill sets not gender. What next, more research showing some other minority has poor stats in similar roles and should also be provided with a quota to remedy the situation, once again not based on skills or ability to do the job.
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April 16, 2010 9:44am
Levi

To all those against the mining of schedule 4 Conservation land, come along to our march in Queen street at 11am May 1st!!
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April 16, 2010 9:50am
krazykiwi

@Levi – Can those of us who support careful mining come along too?
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April 16, 2010 9:57am
Inventory2

MayDay eh Levi? That sounds like an appropriate day for all the leftie tree-huggers to march; all those who oppose private enterpise. Will you be having Soviet-style marching practise beforehand?
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April 16, 2010 9:59am
dime

what the hell. a quota system being proposed by a national mp?

is the PM out of the country or something!?
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April 16, 2010 10:00am
Neil

To bring up another thread. The British General Election.
I watched the leaders debate on BBC at 7.30am.
Three leaders- Brown,Cameron and Clegg.
My gut feeling is that the Tories will win,possibly easily, eventually. Individual polls six weeks before election day are skewed, what you look for are a mixture of polls a year ago,nine months ,six months and three months ago. Those polls showed the Tories with a lead up to 10%.
Suddenly rogue polls emerge from all quarters.
I laughed this morning at a Crosby-Texter poll of 100 marginals that the Tories have to win showing the Tories about 12% ahead. Remember the fuss they C-T created in NZ after they did work for the Nats .
A bit of a laugh when Lynton Crosby is working for the Tory party. Like taking notice of things from the Guardian newspaper.
Clegg was probably the best in the debate, simply because he will never have to implement his policies.
Brown was busy dissing the “dirt” at Cameron and schmoosing to Nick Clegg for support if a hung parliament comes along.
I thought Cameron did ok, nothing stronger, because he was even handed in dealing with the other leaders.Whatever result the election there are some difficult decisions to be made in the UK
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April 16, 2010 10:05am
david

You would be a shoe-in if you were a lesbian Maori quadraplegic. All the minority quota possibilities covered in one.
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April 16, 2010 10:07am
Luc Hansen

Well done Ryan, although you do include the occupied Palestinian territories in your outline of the State of Israel. Mind you, Israel does that too!

I’ve always understood that Northland is a better comparison in terms of size, and your illustration conforms that.

As for who is using who, who would know? But the US only started supporting Israel full bore after the 1967 war by Israel on the remnants of Palestine, Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Israel showed it could control the region and the US was interested in the Arab oil resources. Israel showed the Arabs it still controls the region most recently in the Gaza onslaught, massacre, whatever you want to call it but definitely not a war.
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April 16, 2010 10:13am
malcolm

We have road rules which comprehensively address dangerous driving. Simply enforce them Joyce. Don’t constrain my young adults (and the majority) of responsible young drivers because you can be bothered enforcing the existing laws.

Totally agree. Limiting young drivers to cars of a certain kW is both silly and impractical. And it shows a complete lack of appreciation of how easy it is to drive like a dickhead in practically any car made in the last 20 or so years. A modern 2 litre car is a rocket compared to V8’s of the 70’s, and many will do 200+ km/h.

Anyone with half a brain knows that peak kW is only one of a many factors which determine how racy a car is. There’s also weight, handling, and most important of all, torque. As they say, there’s no replacement for displacement.
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April 16, 2010 10:13am
Levi

Can those of us who support careful mining come along too?

Careful mining. Lol, now that’s a oxymoron.
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April 16, 2010 10:17am
Ryan Sproull

The U.S. arms Israel. The U.S. funds Israel — and for what?

The blighted peoples of the rest of the Middle East look at the U.S.- supplied jets, helicopters, artillery, guns and other military hardware the Israelis use on them and hate them.

So? It’s not a popularity contest.
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April 16, 2010 10:18am
reid

Levi, you guys planning also to sing the Internationale?

P.S. why is careful mining, in your opinion, an oxymoron. Cogent argument not emotive crap, please.
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April 16, 2010 10:18am
philu

ryan..as opposed to some numbnuts’ personal/unsubstantiated ‘opinion’..?

yeah ryan..i run a news aggregation site..

..didn’tyaknow..?

..i go and find the interesting stories..

..and point people at them..eh..?

..um..!..yr point..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 10:20am
Levi

Levi, you guys planning also to sing the Internationale?

Oh, pathetic. Contrary to what you may believe, we are not all a bunch of far left wing communist sympathizing nutters. How closed minded and petty.

If you paided attention to the news, you may have learned that 18% of National party voters oppose strongly the moves to mine our schedule 4 conservation land, for such little economic gain.
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April 16, 2010 10:22am
Inventory2

david said

You would be a shoe-in if you were a lesbian Maori quadraplegic. All the minority quota possibilities covered in one.

david – you left out solo parent. You might upset someone here 😉
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April 16, 2010 10:23am
Ryan Sproull

If there’s nothing to be gained by clicking to your site and then on to the actual story you’re talking about, just link the actual story.
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April 16, 2010 10:23am
reid

Phil perhaps the point is that your site traffic stats indicates the level of interest that others have in your stories. What’s that looking like?
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April 16, 2010 10:23am
big bruv

“yeah ryan..i run a news aggregation site..”

It would only be a news aggregation site if anybody bloody well used it or paid for it.

Since they obviously do not it is nothing but a hobby and as such cannot be considered work.
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April 16, 2010 10:25am
krazykiwi

@Levi – You know that there are different impacts for each different mining techniques. Given your oxymoron observation, can we assume you oppose all mining?
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April 16, 2010 10:25am
Inventory2

Levi said

If you paided attention to the news, you may have learned that 18% of National party voters oppose strongly the moves to mine our schedule 4 conservation land, for such little economic gain.

Levi – if you’d PAID attention at school, your spelling might be better 🙂
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April 16, 2010 10:27am
Levi

No, Krazy Kiwi, you can not assume that. I oppose mining on schedule 4 conservation land, given that there is so little gain from it.
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April 16, 2010 10:28am
Levi

Inventory2. Oh sorry, please forgive me for my typos.
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April 16, 2010 10:29am
Bandycoot

Hows about we let them do the geological survey of the Conservation land, then we can actually discuss the merits or otherwise of mining certain areas based on hard facts rather than emotive bollocks.

Claiming there is “so little value” is hard to prove when we don’t have a full appreciation for what is actually there and the potnetial benefits that mining (or not) could bring.
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April 16, 2010 10:29am
reid

“Oh, pathetic. Contrary to what you may believe, we are not all a bunch of far left wing communist sympathizing nutters. How closed minded and petty. If you paided attention to the news, you may have learned that 18% of National party voters oppose strongly the moves to mine our schedule 4 conservation land, for such little economic gain.”

So only 82% of you are “far left wing communist sympathizing nutters.” My apologies.

Actually I do paided attention to the news, and I wonder how on earth you know how much economic benefit we stand to gain when apparently the geologists don’t even know that.

I find the anti-mining stance moronic on the grounds that refusing to even consider a possibility is moronic.

The fucking decision hasn’t even been made yet, but the morons are screaming their emotive crap about environmental vandalism being inevitable based on nothing but their vapid opinion. Where’s your fucking evidence that such will occur? As I said, no emotive crap please. Facts only.
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April 16, 2010 10:30am
Bandycoot

Snap Reid
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April 16, 2010 10:33am
reid

Yes, Bandycoot, it appears many of us are of a like mind.

I see that Levi’s fallen silent. Perhaps he’s furiously typing in his “evidence.”
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April 16, 2010 10:34am
Inventory2

Here’s the Alexa rankings for Phil’s “news aggregation site”

Global 3,305,395
Alexa Traffic Rank Alexa Traffic Rank
A measure of a website’s popularity.

The rank is calculated using a combination of average daily visitors and pageviews over the past 3 months. The site with the highest combination of visitors and pageviews is ranked #1.

Updated Daily

New Zealand Flag 19,889
Traffic Rank in NZ

I guess that it must be a slow news day. And just to give context, Kiwiblog’s current rankings are 70963/107 (NZ). DPF’s is the 107th most visited site in New Zealand; Phil’s is the 19,889th. And for the record, Keeping Stock’s NZ ranking is 540 🙂
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April 16, 2010 10:35am
Inventory2

Indeed Reid – Levi’s protestations about mining decisions which are yet to be made is not unlike Phil Who?’s taxpayer-funded Axe the Tax bus trip, when Labour has no intention to reduce GST if National increases it.
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April 16, 2010 10:37am
philu

yes..alexa is that one you sign up for..eh..?

yes ryan..16 stories/links so far this morning..and more to come..

btw..where do you go for your daily/regular ‘news’..?

surely not just the herald/stuff..and and ..kiwiblog..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 10:41am
krazykiwi

I commented yesterday on how the Climategate review was a whitewash. This today from the financial post. Extract:-

:
The first of these inquiries has neatly dismissed all concerns of impropriety through the oversight of its chair, Lord Oxburgh of Liverpool, a man of impeccable credentials in the climate change field. Lord Oxburgh is chair of the multinational Falck Renewables, a European leader with major windfarms in the UK, France, Spain and Italy, and he’s chair of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association, a lobby group which argues that carbon capture could become a $1-trillion industry by 2050.

Lord Oxburgh’s judicial temperament also served him well in his role as chair of the university inquiry. “We are sleepwalking” into a global warming threat so dire, Lord Oxburgh explained in 2007, that the world may need to do more to discourage carbon dioxide emitters than to simply put a price on carbon. “It may be that we shall need, in parallel with that, regulations which impose very severe penalties on people who emit more than specified amounts of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere,” he explained.

So the review chair is on record lamenting the dire threats of AGW, and is up to his armpits in eco-related investments including carbon trading.

Given the tendency for those with vested interest (Oxburgh et al) to perpetuate/support the AGW myth, what are we to make of Key and Smith’s steadfast determination to ram the ETS onto us very soon?
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April 16, 2010 10:42am
KiwiGreg

One of our staffers is a female Vietnamese jew. I’ve told her to break a leg and start batting for the other team so we can get all our diversity in one package.
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April 16, 2010 10:44am
103PapPap

The largest Jewish city in the world is New York. If you look at the names of all the banks and finance houses they all have good Jewish names – Goldstein et al. These people are the richest people in NY, and spend a lot of their money on political parties – both Democrats and Republicans – so have enormous political clout.
So it’s actually quite easy to see why the US has always been a friend of Israel.
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April 16, 2010 10:45am
Ryan Sproull

yes ryan..16 stories/links so far this morning..and more to come..

So link to the stories when commenting here. Don’t link to a link to the stories. That’s a waste of time.

btw..where do you go for your daily/regular ‘news’..?

surely not just the herald/stuff..and and ..kiwiblog..?

I use a personalised http://www.newser.com/ for news, occasionally catch up on http://www.democracynow.org/ and check http://www.metafilter.com/ every day.
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April 16, 2010 10:48am
reid

“btw..where do you go for your daily/regular ‘news’..?”

phil, it occurs to me that never in the field of internet usage has a site proclaimed so much and delivered so little.

Sorry mate, but until you get penetrating insights rather than your usual left-wing oh-so-predictable crap, I don’t plan on visiting anytime soon.

It’s a shame really because you are a bright guy, if only you could drop your ideology, you could actually make whoar into what you so often proclaim that it is.
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April 16, 2010 10:48am
krazykiwi

phil, it occurs to me that never in the field of internet usage has a site proclaimed so much and delivered so little.

LOL reid 🙂
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April 16, 2010 10:53am
Luc Hansen

pappap

it wasn’t so much like that in 1967…

I think it started out geopolitical and now is more locopolitical.
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April 16, 2010 10:54am
tom hunter

But the US only started supporting Israel full bore after the 1967 war by Israel on the remnants of Palestine, Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Israel showed it could control the region and the US was interested in the Arab oil resources..

Because Palestine, Egypt, Jordan and Syria are well known as the major sources of the world’s oil supply……
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April 16, 2010 11:07am
philu

i check/scan times/independant/guardian/salon/huff-post/alternet/information clearing house/centre for media and democracy/the nation/utne reader/new scientist..

..to name just a few..

..oh..!..and the herald/stuff..for the local..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 11:17am
side show bob

Watched the Kenyan’s speech this morning on space exploration. He plans to increase NASA’s budget by 6 billion and with the extra funds NASA intends to develop a new rocket for space travel. What a joke. How many bloody years have humans being sitting on the top of rockets, 50 ?. You would think there would be technologies by now that would make a rocket look like a model T Ford. And from what I have read, seen and heard there are. Also there are no plans for further visits to the moon, why?
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April 16, 2010 11:27am
philu

i see the liberal democrat leader creamed both cameron and brown..in that british leaders-debate..

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/nick-clegg-seizes-his-moment-in-historic-tv-debate/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 11:32am
jinpy

yeah, it’s a hard one, talked with an israeli girl last night — she was left wing and not unsympathetic to the palestinian plight — had friends that went to army checkpoints to monitor army actions etc. From talking to her it seemd to me that overall people are used to the conflict, they feel they have a right to the land, are aware that bigger conflicts could arise in the future, but are more interested in getting on with their lives than thinking of how to negotiate a peace. On another level and involving completely different issues you could liken it to NZ and the worst parts of South Auckland. I know about it, it concerns me on a certain level, but I just try to further my own career and get on with it.
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April 16, 2010 11:32am
philu

neither herald..nor stuff..have covered this yet..

..(what do they do all day..?..eh..?..

last week..they (the herald) had an article about ethnic restuarants up there for about a week..

..i was thinking of starting a sweepstake..on when they would consider we had had ‘enough’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 11:35am
philu

“..Don’t link to a link to the stories. That’s a waste of time…”..

do you have r.s.i..?

is one click ‘beyond you’..?

too high a price to pay..?

..aren’t you the ‘precious’-one..?

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 11:41am
Kris K

Luc Hansen 10:13 am,

Well done Ryan, although you do include the occupied Palestinian territories in your outline of the State of Israel. Mind you, Israel does that too!

And let’s not forget that most/all Arab/Islamic Middle East nations DO NOT feature Israel at all on their maps of the world.
As far as they’re concerned Israel DOES NOT exist; and if they have their way it WON’T.
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April 16, 2010 11:46am
philu

also ryan..the reason to click through to whoar..

..is ‘cos i have chosen the ‘taste’ of the linked-story..

..a hand-picked paragraph or so….(..a skill in its’ own right..i would submit..)

..all designed so the reader can make a reasoned/fair decision whether to click through for the full story..

..(seeing as you asked..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 11:47am
side show bob

Gee philu you’re starting to sound desperate.
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April 16, 2010 11:54am
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 10:18 am,

The U.S. arms Israel. The U.S. funds Israel — and for what?

The blighted peoples of the rest of the Middle East look at the U.S.- supplied jets, helicopters, artillery, guns and other military hardware the Israelis use on them and hate them.

So? It’s not a popularity contest.

Indeed, Ryan.
I think Israel would rather have her enemies “hate them” and EXIST compared to the alternative.

The US has traditionally supported Israel because it is an allie, and the ONLY true Western democracy in the Middle East. And let’s not forget that the US is influenced by Christianity and the biblical view that ‘Israel is God’s chosen people’, and those that bless (support) her will be likewise blessed.

With Obomination at the helm, though, Israel’s preferential treatment by the US is likely to change IMHO.
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April 16, 2010 12:00pm
krazykiwi

Forgive me Father for I have sinned. At 9:24 I gave the troll oxygen
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April 16, 2010 12:01pm
MikeNZ

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-miller12-2010apr12,0,3752943.story

Another failed presidency in the offering.
The Arabs don’t and never have wanted a “settlement”
Israeli society is getting it now.
Obama and Hilary know this, so why?

Loved the mapfrappe, thanks.
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April 16, 2010 12:03pm
Ryan Sproull

also ryan..the reason to click through to whoar..

..is ‘cos i have chosen the ‘taste’ of the linked-story..

..a hand-picked paragraph or so….(..a skill in its’ own right..i would submit..)

..all designed so the reader can make a reasoned/fair decision whether to click through for the full story..

..(seeing as you asked..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

That’s a better reason, Phil.
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April 16, 2010 12:05pm
Levi

Reid, so anybody who isn’t a national party supporting kool aid drinker is a left wing nut?
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April 16, 2010 12:05pm
Pete George

And let’s not forget that most/all Arab/Islamic Middle East nations DO NOT feature Israel at all on their maps of the world.

Can you show any examples of this?

Some maps don’t show NZ, but that is for different reasons (we don’t really matter to most people).
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April 16, 2010 12:05pm
MT_Tinman

PhilU at 09:20 you posted a link “10-ways-to-force-the-stinking-rich-to-share-their-wealth”.

I haven’t clicked on it because unlike doped to the eyeballs fuckwits and lazy-ass Lefty near-do-wells full of envy I don’t want the filthy rich to share, I want to join the bastards.

Meanwhile I await the Green Party demos demanding the banning of volcanoes because they are polluting the atmosphere.
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April 16, 2010 12:09pm
Kris K

krazykiwi 12:01 pm,

Forgive me Father for I have sinned. At 9:24 I gave the troll oxygen

That’ll be 5 hail Marys and a couple of hows-ya-fathers.
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April 16, 2010 12:14pm
philu

what exactly is ‘desperate’..

..about explaining what whoar is/does..there..bloody-hands-bob..?

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 12:19pm
TimG_Oz

A lot of the usual unsubstantiated Bullshit about US and Israel. I guess if you attack Israel, nobody requires facts from you.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf21.html#e
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April 16, 2010 12:19pm
MikeNZ

where have you been living Pete G?
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April 16, 2010 12:20pm
reid

Reid, so anybody who isn’t a national party supporting kool aid drinker is a left wing nut?

Levi, I was just using your own description of yourself:

…we are not all a bunch of far left wing communist sympathizing nutters…18% of [us are] National party voters…

What else could I conclude other than that 82% of you are “far left wing communist sympathizing nutters?”

Of course the other evidence I had is your extraordinarily stupid position whereby you oppose even examining the question of exploring minerals in conservation land when you don’t even know what’s there. I mean that’s just fucking nuts. And not only that, you evidently also appear to be the world expert in mining technology since you apparently know that it’s not possible to perform mining without committing economic vandalism. Now either you are indeed the world’s leading expert in mining technology or you’re a fucking nutter. I used probability to conclude the latter.

So in summary, you are a left wing nut until you prove otherwise. Go ahead, I have an open mind. Give us some facts to support your propositions du jour.
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April 16, 2010 12:22pm
Pete George

Mike, I haven’t been living in countries that “DO NOT feature Israel at all on their maps of the world”, I haven’t seen it. I’m interested to see their maps to see what they do. It’s a lot easier to leave some remote islands off the edge of a map than to misdraw a significant part of civilisation.
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April 16, 2010 12:26pm
reid

“…”economic vandalism…”

I mean environmental vandalism.
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April 16, 2010 12:26pm
MikeNZ

Pete
I’ve been reading about that issue and looked at web pages since the 80’s.
fk mate that is 30 yrs!
Funny how you ask for proof when it’s against the pro Israel crowd but don’t check own up when it isn’t.
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April 16, 2010 12:28pm
Pete George

I’ve been called all sorts of left wing things (and right wing things elsewhere!).

Generally I’d like to see the conservation estate preserved, but I don’t see any problem seeing if there is a possible greater benefit from mining selected parts – if it adds up it could benefit the country financially and it could also be done so the nett result also has environment benefits.
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April 16, 2010 12:30pm
Ryan Sproull

Shouldn’t be hard to support the statement if it’s true, Mike.
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April 16, 2010 12:30pm
krazykiwi

Reid, so anybody who isn’t a national party supporting kool aid drinker is a left wing nut?

I hate kool aid… but quite like the idea of using resources wisely and effectively, rather than not using them because of ideological intransigence.
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April 16, 2010 12:33pm
Levi

Reid, you don’t need to pass judgment about me or my political beliefs. They are completely irrelevant to the issue here. You don’t need to assume anything, I haven’t assumed anything about your political beliefs.

Where are the benefits of mining? The royalties paid out to the Government are 1% of the profits a mining companies earns from a mining operation. The jobs created are not substantial or long term ether. So, where’s the long term economic benefit?
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April 16, 2010 12:34pm
Pete George

I don’t know what you are going off about Mike. I asked a simple question, there should be simple answers, or links…

Every time I ask something here I don’t feel a need to make sure I asked several other questions at the same time to make sure the overall mix of my questions is balanced and fair to all sides.

BTW, I don’t think I have posted anything anti-Israel at all on Kiwiblog. It is a complex situation in the Middle East, with many historic complications going back a long way. There are “rights” and “wrongs” and vested interests on all sides. It’s not an issue that I care to get involved with much.
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April 16, 2010 12:35pm
Pete George

Levi, the province I live in substantially benefited from and was largely built on mining. A significant part of it’s attraction now is because of mining that was kicked off by Gabriel Read 149 years ago.

That is a long term benefit.
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April 16, 2010 12:38pm
reid

“Where are the benefits of mining?”

Crikey Levi get this through your head. WE DON’T KNOW YET. That’s the point. I don’t know and you don’t know. But apparently, you’ve already made up your mind there aren’t any, and I don’t know what you’re basing that on because you haven’t told me. So are you going to tell me, or aren’t you?
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April 16, 2010 12:39pm
Levi

Reid. Have you not been paying any attention to the news at all?

Gerry Brownlee has already made estimations of the worth of minerals in the Coromandel. These estimations are quoted in its discussion paper as $54 billion for the Coromandel, and $18 billion for Coromandel conservation land it wishes to open up to mining.

To meet that project there needs to be 163 underground mines. Or 24 open pit mines. Now, must I go onto the environment damage that would cause to the Coromandel??

http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/24-open-pits-needed-meet-government039s-coromandel-projections-watchdog/5/42893
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April 16, 2010 12:47pm
philu

well..reid..just going on the information to hand..eh..?

dosen’t 1% of ‘profits’..staying here as a royalty..for allowing these foreign mining companies to fuck over our land..

..seem like a bit of a no-brainer..to say ‘no!’ to..?

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 12:48pm
reid

“must I go onto the environment damage that would cause to the Coromandel”

Yes please Levi because those estimates sound like they’re well worth pursuing to me. Don’t forget to detail precisely how you’ve come to your damage conclusions with respect to your knowledge of exactly how they intend to perform the extraction. I mean it. I want to know everything in great detail with respect to the technology they’ll use, the techniques they’ll use, the strategy they have for rectifying the site once they’ve finished and your sources for the information you give me. And if you can’t give that to me in the detail I’ve specified, then just don’t bother.

Phil, how do you know it’s 1% – same detail as Levi please and then what’s your calculation with respect to the contribution they’ll make to the local economy over the lifetime of the project?
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April 16, 2010 12:54pm
Kris K

Pete George 12:05 pm,

And let’s not forget that most/all Arab/Islamic Middle East nations DO NOT feature Israel at all on their maps of the world.

Can you show any examples of this?

Israel-free map

Also, many of the educational aids that Arab kids receive their ‘education’ from exclude Israel on all their maps – and no, I don’t have a link for that.

Bottom line, Pete, Islam (most Arab nations) refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of Israel. One method to ‘prove’ this is to not feature it on world maps.
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April 16, 2010 1:10pm
philu

gee reid..interesting to see you pimping for the mining industry..eh..?

and are you considering waihi..when considering yr ‘local economy-contributions’..?

..haven’t they done/ended-up well..

..and i see you are swallowing/promoting the key-hole-surgery chimera being created/spun around all this..

one word for you..’tailings’..

..eh..?

and just to summarise..these are foreign mining companies..taking all their profits off-shore..

..leaving us with a few (relatively-speaking) jobs..a miserly royalty-payment..

..and a fucked environment..?

(fuck..!..where do we sign up for that puppy..?..eh..?..

..whatta-deal..!..

..got any more like that..?..reid..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz0
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April 16, 2010 1:22pm
reid

er phil, I haven’t told anyone what my position on mining is because I HAVEN’T MADE UP MY MIND because WE DON’T KNOW YET whether it’s going to be worthwhile or not.

Sorry to shout but FFS.
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April 16, 2010 1:46pm
philu

well..(take a deep breath now..!..)

can’t we ‘go’..on how thse things usually ‘go’..?

and i repeat..

..are you citing waihi as a ‘local-contribution’ mining success story..?

..and i repeat..the word no mining company goes near..when spinning their case/stories..

..’tailings’..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 1:49pm
reid

“..are you citing waihi as a ‘local-contribution’ mining success story..”

No. See my 1:46.
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April 16, 2010 1:54pm
philu

gee..!..two former justice-ministers..facing fraud/finance-company-collapse-bad-guy criminal-charges..

..but reading our local media..and here..

ya would’t know it..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz0
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April 16, 2010 2:00pm
philu

what more ‘evidence’ do you need/are you looking for..there..reid..?

it’s kinda a no-brainer..really..eh..?

maybe if all the profit..or even a decent chunk of it were going to the gummint..maybe you could make a case on those grounds..

..but really..what possible arguments can you envisage in favor of..?

..when really..it is so simple..

foreign mining company exports all profits..

we get a few mining/infrastructure jobs..

..a (usually0 meagre pittance of a royalty..(on profits..!).

..and a fucked environment..

..what more could you possibly want/need to know..?

..examples please..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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April 16, 2010 2:05pm
Inventory2

Phil – you’ve chased everyone away, so you’re reduced to talking to yourself new .. eh?
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April 16, 2010 2:09pm
reid

“it’s kinda a no-brainer..really..eh..?”

phil if you want to leap to an unfounded conclusion based on speculation about what you think might happen, then you’re somewhat more lacking in mental agility than I’d previously thought.

It’s a very simple point. We don’t know whether it’s worthwhile because they haven’t told us what the proposal is nor even if they will in fact be looking at doing anything. Who the hell knows what they are going to do? You don’t and I don’t and neither does Levi.

So rather than getting all excited and emotional about it, isn’t the rational thing to do, to wait and see? I’m not responding anymore because a 10-year-old could have understood the point way back when I first raised it and I just can’t be arsed repeating myself over and over.
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April 16, 2010 2:19pm
Levi

Reid, I seriously recommend that you actually read the discussion paper and look at the proposals to remove areas of current schedule 4 land.
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April 16, 2010 2:30pm
Whafe

Go away to the US of A for some great mountain biking, come back, log on and what is the first thing I see, post fromt he scorge on society philu, enough to send a man to the loony bin…….
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April 16, 2010 3:07pm
Akaroa

Did everyone – except me – miss the brilliant understated subtlety of the joke in today’s second post on this blog?
To remind:

(Buzz Aldrin(1) Says:

April 16th, 2010 at 8:13 am
Damn. Second again)

Good on ya Buzz! (whoever you really are!!)
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April 16, 2010 3:22pm
Yvette

Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from the Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, “omission”) is a mark or series of marks […] that usually indicate an intentional omission of a word or a phrase from the original text. However ellipses overused in conjunction with alternate nouns, adjectives or other parts of speech separated by a forward slash often indicate a deep personal conflict resulting from having verbal diarrhea confounded by linguistic anal retention at the same/congruous time. Such a person/writer generally/often takes …
double/twice the f…cking time/duration to write/say …
anything that anyone else does/takes …
and can compound this by employing double spacing …
of lines/phrases …

BUT this is it’s only/single redeeming/saving grace …
in that this element/feature can in fact …

… make the writing quite distinctive …

and therefore easy to scroll past/beyond …

which can be an absolute blessing/time-saver …eh?

..whew … I mean great/good

..don’t change philu … or we might start/begin …

to read you bloody tripe/comments

by accident … eh?
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April 16, 2010 3:38pm
krazykiwi

This is kinda geeky-cool. Live airtraffic information at FlightRadar24.
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April 16, 2010 3:57pm

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