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March 25, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 25 March 2010

On a plane most of today so don’t expect much until this evening.

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General Debate

Comments (160)

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wreck1080

I see there has been a huge explosion in violence by children in the latest statistics.

No surprise, the anti-smacking law and other social legislation are starting to take an effect.

I forecast this a couple of years ago, and I was right.
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March 25, 2010 8:08am
Guy Fawkes

When will Winston Peters be paying the taxpayer money back?

Why has the current Government just pushed this aside? Had this been a DPB claimant, they would have been prosecuted.
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March 25, 2010 8:08am
Murray

Wreck Bob Heinlien predicted it in the 50’s.

In other news Bill Malone is getting a statue in Stratford this August 8th. http://hittingmetalwithahammer.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/and-not-before-time/

Now according to dug boy having provided a link to something I’ve linked to to counts as a public service and I’m entitled to sit on my ass and moralise at people paying for my life style.

A one man walk Tui Ad.
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March 25, 2010 8:24am
philu

got a migraine..?..irritable bowel system..?

maybe you just need more pot..eh..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/not-feeling-well-perhaps-youre-marijuana-deficient/

“.. Scientists have begun speculating that the root cause of disease conditions such as migraines and irritable bowel syndrome may be endocannabinoid deficiency..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 25, 2010 8:25am
kevin_mcm

wreck1080 – remember the labour party passed a restrospective law making the repayment voluntary
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March 25, 2010 8:28am
jcuknz

LOL Philu ….Your research efforts are to be commended 🙂
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March 25, 2010 8:29am
Murray

Another day another benefit bludger with a sense of entitlement.
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March 25, 2010 8:37am
Don the Kiwi

So philu

What should you take for your frontal lobe deficiency?
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March 25, 2010 8:48am
barry

Well – finally the dairy industry is getting what it wanted – its getting screwed by a foreign entity.

Theres an old saying – “farmers will always vote for poverty”. They voted Fonterra into existence, but they lost control of it. They think they have control – but they dont have any control except to prevent it getting outside money.
So now the outside money comes from overseas – and thats where the profits will go. The sale and the outflow of profits from the sale of Telecom (it used to be several billion a year) will have nothing on whats going to happen as the foreigners start buying up the dairy industry.

And the chinese plan is to process the milk as much as possible off-shore.

Time to get out of the industry and I feel sorry for the big borrowers – theyre fucked.
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March 25, 2010 8:56am
Inventory2

Phil – if your command of the English language is proof positive of the benefits of dope, I’ll give it a miss thanks all the same.
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March 25, 2010 8:57am
Murray

You can the same effect by wrapping a gum leaf around a brick and smashing into your forehead repeatedly Inv.
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March 25, 2010 9:01am
philu

um..!..you should have put a comma after ‘miss’..eh..?

good try tho’..!..

keep it up..!..eh..?

b-

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 25, 2010 9:02am
Murray

blerk blerk

gibber gibber

puncutate

punctuate

talk crap.

eh?
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March 25, 2010 9:03am
philu

another day..another sneer from the man who likes playing grown-up-dress-ups..with a distinct penchant for ‘man-robes’..

(does he take another name..?..when ‘dressed-up’..?

does he stick to his gender..or does he ‘stray?’..

so many questions..so little time..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 25, 2010 9:04am
Dave Mann

So, DPF, while you are away overseas your site goes from being frenetic, vital, energised, constantly updated and a must-see to just plain old topical, interesting and absorbing…. what a bastard….

Can’t wait for you to return 🙂
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March 25, 2010 9:11am
Murray

Once again a defamatory comment phool, you can applogise or I can request the demerits. Very very slow learner.
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March 25, 2010 9:31am
Chris2

In today’s NZ Herald is a story about the Army going against advice and buying $600,000 of ammunition that turned out to be useless.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3502207/Army-off-target-with-590-000-of-dud-bullets

This is just the latest in a continuing string of purchase errors (against advice) by the military, going back to the ill-fated purchase of the Navy’s “Charles Upham” vessel which made sailors too sea-sick to work in.

Has anyone ever cataloged all the shonky purchases by the military that have cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars over the last 20 years?
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March 25, 2010 9:32am
Murray

Quick lump on the army with a lot of ignorance fueled inuendo.

It wasn’t the army the purchased the ammo, it was the range. you’ll also find that 90% of purchases are at the direction of the Minister who as a matter of habit ignores the recomendations of the military.

ANZAC frigates – politcal decision
LAV’s – political decision
Styer – political decision

Make an effort to be informed or just be another phool.
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March 25, 2010 9:43am
starboard

Has anyone ever cataloged all the shonky purchases by the military that have cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars over the last 20 years?

delete military and add Govt departments…would make ya eyes water….billions and billions and billions….
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March 25, 2010 9:47am
philu

“..you can applogise or I can request the demerits…”

or you…can just stick it up yr man-robes..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 25, 2010 9:49am
philu

“..You can the same effect ..”

brilliant..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 25, 2010 9:50am
A1kmm

John Minto just put out an interesting press release on the Waihopai base:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1003/S00393.htm

I haven’t fact checked anything he says, but if he is right, it gives a lot more credibility to the claims that the Waihopai spy base is endangering lives, by helping the US and UK to spy on the UN and unduly influence other UN members to support the war.

Imagine the outrage if it emerged that a group of three district councils in NZ had bugged government offices, and were using information gained to manipulate the government to support their positions?

New Zealand should have nothing to do with helping the US spy on international organisations like the UN.
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March 25, 2010 9:55am
Adolf Fiinkensein

Another harvest day at the troll farm, I see.
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March 25, 2010 10:01am
philu

(this is a tidy summary of what is coming up..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/the-us-is-at-a-precipice/

“..We are at a precipice.

This is the end of one era and the beginning of another.

The “real” world that so many people believe in, here in America is not the world you see on your TV sets, that is the world that the government and the media want you to believe in.

We are so accustomed to believing in our own American ideology that we can’t understand the ramifications of what we have done.

So many people in this country continue to believe that what we have done can’t be undone.

This is the reason we have come to this point.

We are not “invincible”.

We are not “exceptional”.

We must abide by the same financial tenants that rest of the world must obey.

We cannot spend above our means.

We cannot spend 1.4 Trillion dollars on the military and get nothing back.

We cannot give trillions in fiat money to prop up the bankers and financiers on Wall Street.

The only ones benefiting from this spending spree America is going through are the families that own the banks that make up the Federal Reserve.

Every fiat dollar that is printed, six cents ends up in the transnational banks of these families.

We have mortgaged our own nation to the same people we fought the Revolutionary War against.

To me, the worst President in the world was Woodrow Wilson.

I hope he rots in hell.

Like Obama, that man reneged on almost everything he said he stood for.

He was pressured into the First World War, a war we should have stayed out of.

He also let us become slaves of a Central Bank.

Instead of printing our own money, we were now faced with printing money that included an automatic debt.

I believe that the only reason our government is waging these incessant wars and spending money that they don’t have ..

.. is so that the rest of the countries in the world remain afraid to refuse to take dollars as payment for oil and other imports.

The minute one nation refuses to accept dollars; there will be a cascade of other countries that will follow suit.

That will trigger hyper-inflation .. and our dollar will be worthless.

No more cheap imported oil.

No more cheap electronics.

No more spending on infrastructure.

We won’t have a pot to piss in..”

(next..?)…

war..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 25, 2010 10:11am
starboard

philu (7508) Says:

March 25th, 2010 at 10:11 am

zzzzzzzzzzzzz
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March 25, 2010 10:15am
Banana Llama

Sometimes i wonder if the military are still an Apolitical force, having to pay incentives to keep specialists on for more than two years and then having some bureaucrat moan about purchases that are forced on them must start to wear thin.
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March 25, 2010 10:16am
MikeNZ

A1kmm (21) Says:
March 25th, 2010 at 9:55 am

It depends on which side of the fence you are on.
If you consider said international organisation eg The UN to be benign and positive to the global community then you would say that.
however,
If you consider the UN as a botched, corrupt dangerous entity to National sovereignty’s then you would spy on them and the organisations and countries inside it.
Wake up mate, try the OIC for one but there are dozens.
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March 25, 2010 10:22am
philu

one in four of the drooling/gibbering/rightwing knuckledraggers..(american branch)..

..think that obama ‘might be the anti-christ’..

brilliant..!..eh..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/scary-new-gop-pollrepublican-attitudes-about-obama/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 25, 2010 10:54am
Luc Hansen

Phil, is it just a coincidence that your post above immediately followed MikeNZ?

Quite apt, I thought.
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March 25, 2010 11:08am
Luc Hansen

Anyway, in a sign of rising seas, an island off the coast of Bangladesh has now completely disappeared under the sea (no doubt Owen McShane or Chris de Freitas will report soon how the islanders sold off their topsoil and that is why the island is now below the surface of the sea!).

Some areas are hit harder than others by rising sea levels, we are one of those least affected at this early stage, but as these events mulitply, the deniers will gradually quieten down.

But in the meantime, disaster beckons for many, many, millions.
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March 25, 2010 11:15am
KiwiGreg

“But in the meantime, disaster beckons for many, many, millions.”

And I can feel the smug happiness at the prospect eminating from you too.

Fortunately you are wrong.
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March 25, 2010 11:20am
menace

todays comparison.

John key facebook fans 19,573

“No mining in NZ’s National Parks” group memebers 10,353.

No mining in NZ’s National Parks is up by almost a thousand in just 18 hours.

Surely it pretty obvious what people want isnt it? hes had a head start of about 18 months too.

and for those of you that are interested, heres one easy way, http://www.greenpeace.org.nz/action/mining/action.asp
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March 25, 2010 11:25am
Banana Llama

lmao Menace.

Donkey ignored 50% of the country on a referendum going to need more than facebook to stop him, best of luck though.
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March 25, 2010 11:29am
Brian Smaller

Luc – If the Island in question is part of the Ganges Delta then who is suprised at this news? From the Physical Geography that I remember from Massey, deltas change all the time. Islands built up by mud get washed away, get built up, wash away again.
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March 25, 2010 11:30am
kowtow

Bangladesh is a huge ,massively overpopulated delta.

I’ve seen the panic stricken bullshit from the al BBC on this area in the past( not this particular instance tho)and any idiot could tell you that these islands are made of sand and clay and are constatly being eroded and recreated , its called nature.

To quote Corporal Jones ” Dont panic”.

I’ll bet that way back in the days of the glorious Raj that very few people lived in these marginal areas and thats why it wasnt a major issue then,population pressure is what will be driving these crises, in that sense it is most definately a man made issue.
Theres a thought ,why not let them all come here. Its what they’d like after all,and we can increase our taxes to pay for them too.
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March 25, 2010 11:30am
Inventory2

Menace – you forgot one:

Number of New Zealanders who party-voted NZ First in 2008: 95,356

You have a long way to go to dupe as many people as Winston did 🙂
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March 25, 2010 11:39am
Puzzled in Ekatahuna

Philu, go back to your own blog …

… YOU SEEM TO HAVE ATTRACTED A COMMENT!!

… and it makes about as much sense as you usually do here

… because it seems to be a compilation of most of your comments

dropped here so far this morning.

… oh dear. bother/damn, bother
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March 25, 2010 11:41am
malcolm

Barry, you didn’t explain how a Chinese company buying dairy farms is bad for NZ. There are plenty of smart people in the farming community – let Crafers sell for inflated prices to the Chinese, let the Chinese lose money for a few years (or not make enough to satisfy their shareholders) and then buy back off them when prices have fallen.

And the chinese plan is to process the milk as much as possible off-shore.

Well they surely won’t be shipping whole milk to China so it’s really no different from the current situation where they can buy WMP or SMP from Fonterra or any number of other companies.
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March 25, 2010 11:42am
KiwiGreg

@ malcolm and that Chinese company is a long way away from actually buying anything. Has ANYONE put their hands up and said “I sold, here’s my cheque?”
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March 25, 2010 11:51am
menace

just passing th einfo out, cant eat bananas if you havnt got one, in the coming weeks ill be on the street getting letters/partitions signed, and ill be putting massaive preasure on tohers to do teh same too. gotta start somewhere.

shit loads more vote for the greens, that makes me pretty happy
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March 25, 2010 12:07pm
Murray

Makes you a smidge incoherent too.
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March 25, 2010 12:08pm
menace

i garentee most new zealanders dont want our protected land mined, just have to make that nown and then the money lovving bastards can fuck OFF
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March 25, 2010 12:08pm
big bruv

“shit loads more vote for the greens, that makes me pretty happy”

Then you could really rule our lives aye Menace
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March 25, 2010 12:09pm
Put it away

What is it with dope addicts and all their diseases ? If you believe the propaganda from the likes of phool and other abNORMLs, you get the impression no one is smoking the stuff to get baked, every single weedhead is suffereing from glaucoma or some terminal disease. Pinkeyes and terminal laziness maybe.
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March 25, 2010 12:11pm
menace

talk to me murray?
incoherent?
only by your perception and all i know is that you are blue and look like murray.
were as most the people i interact with seem to see things like i do,
perhaps from my percetion your in incoherent one
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March 25, 2010 12:12pm
side show bob

Brian S, take pity on poor old Luc, stuck with a shitload of useless carbon credits and unable to find anyone stupid enough to take them off his hands. I bet he’s praying for rain and lots of it.

Malcolm, quite right, the Chinese will have to play by the rules that all other farmers have to play to. The only problem I see is that they come in with the cash that NZ farmers do not have excess to. We may become salves in our own country if not careful or are greedy. If they are happy to pay vast amounts of cash for land they may well find themselves in a similar situation as the Crafers. Anyhow this group looks rather shady and have a questionable past.
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March 25, 2010 12:12pm
Put it away

@ Puzzled – ring the bells ! Light the signal fires ! LOL
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March 25, 2010 12:13pm
mattyroo

And the problem SSB is that the HK company behind this “offer” don’t seem to have the money. With a market cap of 205mm, they probably only have a cash backing of less than half of that. $1.5B is an awful lot to raise by a company that is new into this game, and they will have to raise a damn site more than that to get this “venture” off the ground.

Call me sceptical……
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March 25, 2010 12:18pm
Kris K

wreck1080 8:08 am,

I see there has been a huge explosion in violence by children in the latest statistics.

No surprise, the anti-smacking law and other social legislation are starting to take an effect.

I forecast this a couple of years ago, and I was right

Indeed, Wreck.
I sensed a similar outcome when they removed corporal punishment from schools back in the 80s.
Of course, it’s all on the same continuum.
But this is, as we know, the aims of the socialists/Marxists – it’s a brave new world.
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March 25, 2010 12:18pm
menace

Put it away

your so full of shit mate, so full of shit, “i can smell it on your breath” lol(fuck that was a man that could speech).

alcohole is ten times worse than the weed.
alcohole
4.4 billion per year in negative costs(in nz)
plus all the death and abused children and beaten wives etc etc, the list just goes on.

Now if you wanna say your not full shit of then show me the stats mate, i want new zealand stats, you show me that weed is worse than alcohole.

alcohole is the presedent for acceptible right?
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March 25, 2010 12:18pm
big bruv

“Now if you wanna say your not full shit of then show me the stats mate, i want new zealand stats, you show me that weed is worse than alcohole.”

Who needs “stats” when you have examples such as this.
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March 25, 2010 12:25pm
menace

you to big bruv, i know ill find the stats to counter yoru arguements, so put your money were your mouth is too aye, come on, dont be such a pussy mate, i dare you? or are you to scared you cant find the info to back up you alogations? no hypothetical dribble from the 80s either please.
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March 25, 2010 12:34pm
Kris K

barry 8:56 am,

So now the outside money comes from overseas – and thats where the profits will go. The sale and the outflow of profits from the sale of Telecom (it used to be several billion a year) will have nothing on whats going to happen as the foreigners start buying up the dairy industry.

Indee, Barry.
This doesn’t bode well for New Zealand’s future if major portions of our dairy industry are flogged off to overseas interests.

We’ve already lost much of our manufacturing base; pine forestry; Telecom (as has been stated); Rail system; etc.
If we also lose much of our primary sector to offshore interests, what exactly will we have left to generate export dollars – Tourism?

Ah, you say, but this is the ‘benefit’ of a global free market.
And you guys wonder why I’m against a global free market, and free trade agreements with the likes of China.

The only thing I see coming out of a global free marketplace is, ultimately, global government with a global taxation system – say goodbye to the sovereign nation state.

And this is, once again, exactly what the socialists/Marxists/one worlders have been aiming for – a single global socialist state; where they reign supreme.

Do we sense a trend here? – an overarching agenda?
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March 25, 2010 12:37pm
Luc Hansen

Brian and Kowtow

The BBC report contains very specific comment by Indian scientists attributing the loss of the island to sea level change brought about by climate change.

No if, no buts, no maybes.

But I congratulate you for not falling into my trap of blaming the locals – there are no locals. But there are on the islands next in line.

Bangladesh stands to be devastated by the loss of its mangroves, which help to shield it from extreme weather events coming in from the sea. There will be millions of people who will need to be relocated. But the world, at governmental level, continues to keep its head in the sand with petty politicking taking precedence over the upcoming humanitarian crises.

KiwiGreg

Your usual offensive bile. There is nothing to be happy about what is happening while we fiddle. You are the one who seems very happy at the idea of another round of suffering for tens of millions of the world’s poorest thanks once again to the rapacious West.

It won’t be long before boatloads of Indonesians head our way as their islands disappear – bypassing Australia’s machine guns. What will our response be?
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March 25, 2010 12:37pm
redeye

The poor grammar/punctuation is more down to the texting era than any mind altering substance Brendan. I know a shit load of illiterate drunks. Even when they’re sober.
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March 25, 2010 12:38pm
big bruv

Menace

“Stats” are not needed, both you and the other drug fucked wreck Phool Ure are classic examples of the damage ‘weed’ does to those stupid enough to smoke it.

You can bang on about it all you like, the reality of the situation is that ‘weed’ will never be legalised in the foreseeable future, many of us think that is a good thing.
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March 25, 2010 12:39pm
redeye

Good to see the ‘right-wing’ Bruv believes in Government interference into what a grown man can do in his own home.

I thought you lot were all about personal responsibility and freedom of choice.
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March 25, 2010 12:49pm
menace

some evidence to back up your allegation though mate, your opinion isn’t enough.

i think though that future you say isn’t foreseeable is perhaps a little closer than you think mate, twice in 7 years now the government has been advised by it self more or less that its stance on weed is probably not effective in its current form and thta perhaps prohibition enforcement is not the most effective path to harm reduction, and i dare say that in the future more and more advise will be the same.

do you believe alcohol is less harmful to society that weed?
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March 25, 2010 12:49pm
Kris K

A1kmm 9:55 am,

John Minto just put out an interesting press release on the Waihopai base:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1003/S00393.htm

I haven’t fact checked anything he says, but if he is right, it gives a lot more credibility to the claims that the Waihopai spy base is endangering lives, by helping the US and UK to spy on the UN and unduly influence other UN members to support the war.

Imagine the outrage if it emerged that a group of three district councils in NZ had bugged government offices, and were using information gained to manipulate the government to support their positions?

New Zealand should have nothing to do with helping the US spy on international organisations like the UN.

MikeNZ 10:22 am,

A1kmm (21) Says:
March 25th, 2010 at 9:55 am

It depends on which side of the fence you are on.
If you consider said international organisation eg The UN to be benign and positive to the global community then you would say that.
however,
If you consider the UN as a botched, corrupt dangerous entity to National sovereignty’s then you would spy on them and the organisations and countries inside it.
Wake up mate, try the OIC for one but there are dozens.

Absolutely agree, Mike.
And absolutely disagree, A1kmm.

How anyone can view the UN as not being “a botched, corrupt dangerous entity to National sovereignty’s”; anti-Semetic; against personal freedoms; not to mention absolutely useless and a financial burden on sovereign states is beyond me.

If someone doesn’t keep an eye on these pricks, and hold them to account, then they will supersede the national sovereign state by default – one world government, anyone?

Are we seeing a pattern yet?
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March 25, 2010 12:50pm
menace

redeye, tehy are mate and long as we do what they want on some things, a fine bunch so long as they have some perceived power.
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March 25, 2010 12:51pm
Inventory2

Ah yes – “weed”. Another word which has been captured by a single-interest group. “Weed” makes cannabis sound so much friendlier and less harmful, doesn’t it. Eventually the softened version slips into everyday usage, and thus the harm that cannabis causes is downplayed.
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March 25, 2010 12:53pm
Kris K

A1kmm 9:55 am,

John Minto just put out an interesting press release on the Waihopai base:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1003/S00393.htm

I haven’t fact checked anything he says, but if he is right, it gives a lot more credibility to the claims that the Waihopai spy base is endangering lives, by helping the US and UK to spy on the UN and unduly influence other UN members to support the war.

Imagine the outrage if it emerged that a group of three district councils in NZ had bugged government offices, and were using information gained to manipulate the government to support their positions?

New Zealand should have nothing to do with helping the US spy on international organisations like the UN.

MikeNZ 10:22 am,

A1kmm (21) Says:
March 25th, 2010 at 9:55 am

It depends on which side of the fence you are on.
If you consider said international organisation eg The UN to be benign and positive to the global community then you would say that.
however,
If you consider the UN as a botched, corrupt dangerous entity to National sovereignty’s then you would spy on them and the organisations and countries inside it.
Wake up mate, try the OIC for one but there are dozens.

Absolutely agree, Mike.
And absolutely disagree, A1kmm.

How anyone can view the UN as not being “a botched, corrupt dangerous entity to National sovereignty’s”; anti-Semetic; against personal freedoms; not to mention absolutely useless and a financial burden on sovereign states is beyond me.

If someone doesn’t keep an eye on these pricks, and hold them to account, then they will supersede the national sovereign state by default – one world government, anyone?

Are we seeing a pattern yet?

[ignore my 12:50 pm comment – won’t delete or edit]
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March 25, 2010 12:53pm
menace

minto’s article did give good insight into that case.
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March 25, 2010 12:54pm
Put it away

Menace, you provide the perfect example of a weedhead with your illogical, ungrammatical ( “That was a man who could speech” LOL ) comment that is completely unrelated to my comment. Try reading my post again. Since you utterly fail to get the point, I’ll summarise if for you. Read slowly. Try to focus your eyes. This is what you would get from my post if you were able to maintain concentration from one sentence to the next, and like them together:

Weedheads like Phool constantly promote weed as a cure for this or that disease, as if that is the real reason for their interest in weed. They never honestly say what their OVERWHELMING interest in weed is: they smoke it to get baked. Why the spin ? If sitting around the house getting baked is such a noble achievement, why is it always last on their list of reasons why dope is such a good thing, when they are trying to proselytise non-weedheads ?

Now tell me how your incoherent rant addresses that point in ANY way ? And tell me how weed hasn’t affected your ability to think rationally.
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March 25, 2010 12:59pm
menace

inventory, the only reason i use the word weed was to put a bit of slang or more normal everyday terms into my writing.

I don’t see how its a lessor word to use, i though weed would of had more association to the term “drugfucked” for eg than the word cannabis, anyhow…..

Perhaps you would like to attack my argument that alcohol is worse than “cannabis”, and that with alcohol being the precedent then surely cannabis should also be legal?
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March 25, 2010 12:59pm
Murray

I like menace, he make my engrish rook good!
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March 25, 2010 1:01pm
redeye

I’d personally like to know exactly what harm inventory is speaking of. Could he list em, and some proof that they actually exist? Little tip, the ‘gateway’ theory has been well and truly debunked.
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March 25, 2010 1:02pm
KiwiGreg

“Your usual offensive bile. ”

You might have to harden up if I actually try and be offensive.
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March 25, 2010 1:04pm
Kris K

Luc Hansen 11:08 am,

Phil, is it just a coincidence that your post above immediately followed MikeNZ?

Luc, you’re a one eyed, anti-Semite, AGW advocate, idiot.
And luckily you’re in the minority around this joint. Sadly, though, there are many useful idiots like you that permeate the global community, and who will be culpible for the demise of certainly Western society/culture, not to mention any semblance of the freedoms we currently take for granted.

Just another enabler!
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March 25, 2010 1:05pm
Murray

Let me know when Greg and we’ll tag team the sad little softcock.
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March 25, 2010 1:05pm
big bruv

redeye

I have no problem with people doing what they like in their own homes, the trouble is that almost all of these drug fucked wrecks are also pinko’s and as such they will expect me to pay for their drug rehab when they finally realise they are better off being drug free.

This is to say nothing of the benefits these bastards will be on when they become so addicted they cannot work.

So please, do not insult me by using the “freedom of choice” bullshit argument, if you are happy to fund their lifestyles then you go for it, but do not bloody well ask me to pay for it.
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March 25, 2010 1:07pm
Inventory2

redeye – you only have to read the rantings of a certain commenter here to see. Hint; he’s very generous with full-stops!
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March 25, 2010 1:07pm
Murray

Yeah but the fool wont stop Inv.
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March 25, 2010 1:09pm
Banana Llama

Global warming aint all that bad, imagine the millions that will survive thanks to milder winters world wide.
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March 25, 2010 1:13pm
menace

put it away, the medical thing is of course a strategy, and in case you hadn’t noticed, a strategy that’s working dam well.
The reason it works so dam well is because it does have great legitimate medical uses, and there for makes grand first step in the decriminalisation of cannabis. As you must know from watching any baby trying to climb stairs for the first time, once you got the first step, the rest are already trodden.

yes of course the the end goal is for people to have the right to get stoned, it doesn’t hurt society so of course it should be allowed. Its not allowed currently due to BS propaganda that started a very long time ago.

In direct response to you request, of course i understand your points but i only respond as i wish, of course, and i do think rationally, that’s why i look at the damage that alcohol does to society vs cannabis and wonder why there legal status isn’t the other way round!
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March 25, 2010 1:14pm
Bevan

got a migraine..?..irritable bowel system..?
maybe you just need more pot..eh..?
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/not-feeling-well-perhaps-youre-marijuana-deficient/
“.. Scientists have begun speculating that the root cause of disease conditions such as migraines and irritable bowel syndrome may be endocannabinoid deficiency..”
phil(whoar.co.nz)

I don’t believe this for a second, I used to smoke Marijuana when I was a teenager and during those years were when the frequency and severity of my migraines were the worst! Not saying marijuana made them worse, but it certainly didnt help, but I’m very skepticle of any findings from this ‘scientist’.
Haven’t smoked a joint since I was 18, and the frequency and severity of my migraines has tappered right off since my early 20’s
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March 25, 2010 1:18pm
menace

big bruv, you hit the nail on the head bruv, alcohol costs NZ 4.4 billion annually in negative costs, cannabis isn’t anywhere near that its like tennis to ping pong and most of the costs are associated with policing and the fact that it is illegal.
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March 25, 2010 1:20pm
menace

bevan, um, you trying to say that smoking joints was the biggest thing going on inside your body as a teenager? i think there’s no grounds to assume your headaches have anything to do with weed, yes sure in analysing there possible causes that should certainly be taken into account but analysing and assuming a two things.

and in any case you’ve illustrated just how addictive marijuana is!
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March 25, 2010 1:24pm
Put it away

I like the word “weed” and especially “weedhead” and I choose it carefully, to connote a useless thing growing amongst useful crops, using up their nutrients and sunlight, while offering nothing positive in return. It describes dopes like Phool as well as the dope he uses. But I seriously doubt he is capable of make the connection in meaning.
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March 25, 2010 1:25pm
big bruv

“yes of course the the end goal is for people to have the right to get stoned, it doesn’t hurt society”

Despite a fucking mountain of evidence that is does hurt society?

You bloody junkies make me want to puke, you demand the freedom to turn yourself into drug fucked wrecks yet you have no intention of ever paying the associated bills that come with your ‘freedom of choice’.
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March 25, 2010 1:36pm
big bruv

Menace

I have no bloody idea what point you are trying to make re alcohol, I did try and work out what you were saying but I had to stop when my eyes started bleeding.

Booze is legal, “weed” is not, deal with it and move on.
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March 25, 2010 1:38pm
Bevan

bevan, um, you trying to say that smoking joints was the biggest thing going on inside your body as a teenager?

No, I’m saying that I don’t think smoking marijuana did anything to reduce the severity and frequency of my migraines. It was a response to what philu posted.

i think there’s no grounds to assume your headaches have anything to do with weed, yes sure in analysing there possible causes that should certainly be taken into account but analysing and assuming a two things.

Which is what I have stated in my post. Did you actually read it?

and in any case you’ve illustrated just how addictive marijuana is!

Really? I don’t think so – in fact I dont think I was even ‘addicted’, and considered myself a ‘social toker’, didnt particularly feel the need to light up a joint morning, noon and night even when I was alone. All I have just illustrated is that I smoked marijuana during my teenage years and during those years my migraines were both more severe and frequent than they are now.
Shit I might add that after smoking cigarettes for 14 years I was able to kick the habit cold turkey – that doesnt mean that nicotine is not addictive now does it. When you really want to quit something its not that hard when you set your mind to it, and you REALLY want to quit.
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March 25, 2010 1:43pm
menace

big bruv “Booze is legal, “weed” is not, deal with it and move on.”

but that’s my point, the law is wrong, weed does not kill anybody or break families etc, these are the things that alcohol does, and the money cost of alcohol are 4 times greater than that of illegal drugs, what’s more, most illegal drug costs associates to pot are the costs of enforcing, and a greater portion of the cost of illegal drugs will be of the harder drugs that cause serious crime etc. Therefore if weed was to be decriminalised then its costs would be probably one hundredth that of alcohol.

Therefore it should be decriminalised.
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March 25, 2010 1:45pm
dime

stoners are just gross.

questionable hygiene too.
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March 25, 2010 1:46pm
Luc Hansen

Banana Llama, you raise a very good point. We are going to get to the stage where bio-engineering projects, aimed at cooling the planet, will be deemed essential to forestall deleterious effects of temperature rise, including devastating sea level rise. But what about those areas, like Russia, which have benefited overall from a more temperate climate, and threaten nuclear annihilation on those who attempt such projects?

This shouldn’t happen in our lifetime, but it could well be faced by our grandchildren. I suppose they will thank us for such an inheritance!
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March 25, 2010 1:47pm
Murray

You all stop wrestling with this pig.

For one thing its a stoner pig. For another it accepts no reason or logic outside its own perceptions.
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March 25, 2010 1:47pm
Put it away

Menace, I think you’ll find that any bad rep that weed has today has nothing to do with the “Propaganda that started a long time ago”. The era of “Reefer Madness” – when it dopers were a bizarre rarity and hardly anyone knew a dopehead in real life – is long gone, people today form their opinions about weed from seeing its effects on people directly. Phool being a prime example.
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March 25, 2010 1:47pm
Bevan

but that’s my point, the law is wrong, weed does not kill anybody or break families etc, these are the things that alcohol does,

None so blind as those that cannot see.

weed does not kill anybody

Unless you drive after smoking it and crash your car into some poor innocent motorist, therefore killing them.
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March 25, 2010 1:52pm
menace

bevan, excellent, you’ve illustrated just how dangerous weed is and just illegal it should be.

and also the fact that you looked back at a time of using a recreational drug and used that as an analysis as to the medical qualities of that recreational drug does nothing to inform us of its medical qualities. The fact that many doctors endorse marijuana as having great medical qualities does tell us that when proscribed correctly that it does.

P.S. I’m not having ago at you bevan, just using your comments to illustrate certain points..
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March 25, 2010 1:54pm
Gooner

There’s a storm brewing:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10634261
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March 25, 2010 1:54pm
Yvette

Menace, your argument regarding alcohol is a bloody waste of time. It is the same as suggesting it is OK to have HIV because it is not as bad as full-blown cancer.
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March 25, 2010 1:55pm
menace

dime, if I was a stoner i would take that to heart, but I’m not so…..
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March 25, 2010 1:56pm
barry

Oh – Malcolm – you havent thought this through.

In China they dont have the type of welfare we have. Their welfare goes like this:
The government sees the jobless wandering the street causing trouble but instead of giving them more money to cause even more trouble, they give money to successful industries to build new factories and to employ people. The company is able to keep the money if they employ more people (in line with the conditions on the money). Afetr all – there is no future in just giving it to people to do nothing. the chinese long ago figured out that using welfare money to create jobs was a smarter deal than the stupid european type model.

(Mind you there a few problems for the business owners if they dont meet the conditions – usually pretty serious consequences.)

So – the money used to buy NZ dairy farms is almost certainly chinese government welfare money. They dont need to worry about the value of the farms – their job is to provide chinese jobs – Ill say it again – their job is to provide chinese jobs.

a)The chinese wont be selling any farms that they buy.
b) It doesnt matter what the milk cost is, its still cheaper than paying welfare to people to do nothing.
c) Its all about CHINESE jobs.
d) Owning a NZ farm confers the NZ quality label on all the milk they will get from other places (Yes even chinese milk)
e) And if recall correctly, the Hong Kong based company is called something likes this: Natural Dairy NZ Holdings.!! Interesting name for a Hong Kong company. Note those two words ‘Natural’ and ‘Dairy’ – oh, and shit I almost forgot the other bit – ‘NZ’. The Chinese dont really give a shit about the price of the farm or the milk. They are buying a perception – which they will sell against Fonterra – who in china has an association with an product called malamine or some similar name.

Of course all this wouldnt arise if Fonterra had the money to buy these farms and keep the value in NZ, but they dont have the cash – their shareholders wont give it to them or allow them to get it on the sharemarket and Fonterra’s books are pretty heavily loaded with debt now – so they cant even go and borrow the money (from the chionese even!)
And anyway if Fontera did get heaps of money, theyd be off to S.America to buy more raw milk – its chaeper milk than they can get here.

dairy farm prices arent going to go up with these guys around
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March 25, 2010 2:01pm
menace

response to gooners link.
that’s been going on for a few years now, good on those countries for keeping control of there situations i say.
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March 25, 2010 2:02pm
RightNow

The island Luc claims has been ‘sunk’ by rising sea levels, known as New Moore Island, or South Talpatti island, has suffered from natural erosion. It was an unpopulated island, in a wetland at the base of a huge river, not the first to erode and unlikely to be the last.
In other news, it appears the lack of penguins in the Arctic is also a result of global warming.
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March 25, 2010 2:04pm
Banana Llama

Luc, Thats an interesting way of looking at things i never considered how a nation who benefits from a warmer climate might react.

Though i think sea level rises are over hyped myself, if one can cool down a planet then one can just as easily stop the water from flooding a city, poor nations could actually benefit greatly from such construction efforts as instead of spending money on a military apparatus to repress people they would instead have to mobilize a public workforce for the vast construction efforts required which would of course lead to a higher standard of living and more liberalized society over time. A small scale example would be what they are doing in Bangladesh already though it has been quite sometime since i followed that story with any interest.
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March 25, 2010 2:08pm
big bruv

Menace

“weed does not kill anybody or break families etc, ”

You do your argument no favours with stupid comments like that.
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March 25, 2010 2:09pm
Yvette

They need to shoot more polar bears because they’re eating all the Arctic penguins! South Pole – no polar bears: thousands of bloody penguins.
[Menace – it’s the same connection between alcohol and cannabis]
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March 25, 2010 2:14pm
menace

I’ll give a few numbers for those that seem to have things a bit wrong.

Costs of harmful alcohol and other drug use
Adrian Slack
Client: The Ministry of Health and ACC
Authors: Adrian Slack, Dr Ganesh Nana, Michael Webster, Fiona Stokes and Jiani Wu
Date: July 2009

This research estimates the social costs of harmful alcohol and other drug use, excluding tobacco, in New Zealand. Harms related to drug use include a wide range of crime, lost output, health service use and other diverted resources. Harmful use has both opportunity costs, which divert resources from alternative beneficial uses, and psychological or intangible costs, such as reduced quality or length of life.

The report provides four broad answers. It estimates the:

* total social costs from harmful drug use in 2005/06.
* potential level of social costs that are avoidable.
* cost to society stemming from alcohol and other drug-related injuries
* social costs from harmful drug use borne by the government

The study shows that harmful drug use imposed a substantial cost on New Zealand in 2005/06.

* Overall, harmful drug use in 2005/06 caused an estimated $6,525 million of social costs.
* Harmful alcohol use in 2005/06 cost New Zealand an estimated $4,437 million of diverted resources and lost welfare.
* Harmful other drug use was estimated to cost $1,427 million, of which $1,034 million were tangible costs.
* Joint alcohol and other drug use that could not be separately allocated to one drug category cost a further $661 million. If the joint costs are split proportionately, total alcohol and total other drug costs equate to $4,939 million (over three quarters) and $1,585 million (just under one quarter).
* Using estimates from international research, this study suggests that up to 50 percent ($3,260 million) of the social costs of harmful drug use may be avoidable.
* The research indicated that 29.9 percent (or $1,951 million) of the social costs of harmful drug use result from injury.
* The costs of harmful drug use from a government perspective amount to an estimated $1,602 million, or just over one third (35.1 percent) of the total tangible costs to society.

BERL project reference: #4577
http://www.berl.co.nz/874a1.page
————————————————————————

also,
The latest crime statistics released by the Police show they have put more effort into easy busts of pot smokers and less effort into hard drugs like methamphetamine (P).

Cannabis arrests were up 5.8% in the year to 30 June 2008, but arrests for “new drugs” such as meth went down 11%.

“That’s a trend everyone should be concerned about,” said NORML spokesperson Chris Fowlie. “Polls show the public do not support arresting and jailing people for using cannabis. Most people are more concerned with catching serious crooks, so the police should seriously reconsider their priorities.”

The reason for the increased emphasis on catching non-violent and otherwise law-abiding people who choose cannabis over other more harmful drugs such as alcohol, may be the high resolution rate. Most defendants plead guilty, thereby improving the resolution rate for all crime and making the police look better.

The crime statistics show cannabis offences had a resolution rate of 92.9%, compared to 47% for all offences. “No wonder the police like busting pot smokers,” said Mr Fowlie.

Although there is no evidence that law enforcement has any effect on people’s decision to use drugs, New Zealand continues to have the world’s highest arrest rate for cannabis.

“The one piece of good news is that the cannabis arrest rate is still down on the peak of 25,293 arrests in 1998/99, the year the Greens got into parliament and cannabis law reform got on the agenda,” said Mr Fowlie.

A recent study by the World Health Organisation found that New Zealand had the highest rate of cannabis use among the 17 countries surveyed. Researchers concluded drug use “is not simply related to drug policy, since countries with stringent user-level illegal drug policies did not have lower levels of use than countries with liberal ones … The Netherlands, with a less criminally punitive approach to cannabis use than the US, has experienced lower levels of use, particularly among younger adults.”

Highlights from the latest crime statistics:

NORML:Drugs – cannabis: 15,288 arrests, up 5.8%
NORML:Drugs (new drugs): 2,640 arrests, down 11.1%
NORML:Drugs (not cannabis): 1,331 arrests, down 10.7%
NORML:Total drugs: 19,259 arrests (4.5% of all recorded crime)
NORML:Cannabis: 3.58% of all recorded crime*
NORML:Personal cannabis offences: 11,591 people arrested (2.71% of all recorded crime)

The crime stats for the year ended 30 June 2008 are here: http://www.police.govt.nz

The Statistics NZ website lets you ask queries for more detailed statistics: http://www.stats.govt.nz
http://www.norml.org.nz/article681.html
———————————————————————————

Looks to me liek we would be doing the country a huge favours by decriminalizing cannabis.

If anybody would like to tell me how Im reading the stat’s wrong im open to you explanation.

Also i would urge anybody that is interested in true facts regarding cannabis and it effect in new zealand society to read the 2003 health select committees Inquiry into the public health strategies related to cannabis use and the most appropriate legal status, http://www.clerk.parliament.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/571B77EC-27CF-41AA-8364-7800E36A214D/13988/DBSCH_SCR_2531_23991.pdf right click, save as…..
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March 25, 2010 2:17pm
redeye

I’m not surprised by the hypocrisy. Our own Prime Minister says it would be far too ‘nanny-state’ to ban people from taking a drug on the beach that kills 5000 a year, and then in virtually the next breath dismisses a Law Commission report seeking a relaxation of the laws THAT KILL NO-ONE.

He doesn’t want to send the wrong message to our children he claims. I’m not sure what message that is, better to get addicted to nicotine?

Perhaps his message is, when, and it will almost certainly be when, the time comes for you to experiment, make sure you invest with the right gang? Or the right brewery? The drug that only kills 1000 a year?

Bruv, I personally have no trouble with you tightening the ability to claim any form of benefit but your perception of a dope smoker is well out of date.
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March 25, 2010 2:18pm

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