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March 19, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 19 March 2010

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General Debate

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Luc Hansen

Pete:

“Afghanistan has been invaded many times, its boundaries and governments almost always in dispute. Invaders include the Mughal rulers of South Asia, Russian Tsars, Soviet Union, British Empire, and currently a coalition force of NATO troops with UN-backing led by US armed forces.” Wiki.

Nowhere do I see any reports that Afghans actually requested these invasions. I remember the US solemnly promising to bomb the country back to the stone age when the Soviets had already beaten them to it. But wtf was that about. Most Afghans had no idea Al Qaeda even existed.

Saddam cannot and does not deserve to be defended, but the conditions which led to his rise were again created by western colonial powers. Today is the 7th anniversary of the latest invasion of Iraq, which has resulted in a disputed death toll but an undisputed fleeing of the country by over 4m Iraqis and another 1.3m IDPs.

I’m listening as I type this to a report on the rise of Sharia (Law) in Iraq. Progress, I guess.

Yep, we did them a favour, for sure.
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March 20, 2010 9:29am
MikeNZ

I just love this RIP.

Niggly
Bryla isn’t a pacifist, he is anti european/coloniser iof he was a true pacifist he would do the same anywhere in the world against the truly bad people we have.
He won’t as he only acts in a safe place like the West.
I will start to give them credit when i see them sealing Saudi Arabian, Chinese, Zimabwean, Cuban and other consulates and making public protests.
They won’t because that’s not who they are. (useful idiots).

Komata
if you look closely at the ploughshares group you will see a solidarity to the so called Palestinians and other indigenous peoples against the usurper/colonisers so its not that Bryla underestimates Islam it is he and his fellow travelers choose to ignore their threat and in effect they side with them. (maybe their hatred of the western consumer gods is so all encompassing).

Tom
I don’t get him now, his loathing is an open sore in his writing.

Simon
The left are so arrogant they can’t conceive of anyone who doesn’t agree with them having the same or better brains than them, so they resort to attack attack attack. They hope by making it personal, they can invalidate anything others say. It only works with morons who have no brains and doesn’t change the content.
Never give in to them.
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March 20, 2010 10:10am
Johnboy

Why any of you bother engaging with Bryla is what I don’t understand. In his own land he is regarded as a hemorrhoid on the arse of society and like his brother in arms Russel Norman he has come to NZ because they see us as an easy mark. Going by the verdict of the twelve good jurors they are of course correct.

Unlike a real hemorrhoid it would be best to ignore him and he will wither from lack of attention which is the one thing that all pathetic little turds like him seek.
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March 20, 2010 10:26am
philu

“..MikeNZ (1488) Says:
March 20th, 2010 at 10:10 am

I just love this RIP..”

so you keep saying..

just who are you trying to convince..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 20, 2010 10:44am
niggly

Bryla (49) Says:
March 19th, 2010 at 9:13 pm

Righty ho, I now have a clearer understanding of your position (but do correct me if I’m wrong), which is the reason for you supporting the Ploughshares attack on Waihopai (and it seems this is the same position of the 3 men) is that if it could be taken out of action, you will be saving lives, including the lives of for example jihadist’s & AQ etc, because your reasoning is all life, including the lives of people with (so called) “bad” intent (ie from our mainstream western perspective) are just as important as anyone else’s ie ALL lives are important, no matter whether one is “good” or “bad” so to speak?

Is this so? Or if not (or not quite) could you elaborate a bit further please?

For the purposes of my writing I will assume for now that this is the case. Of course you are entitled to your belief (and as per your last comment last night clearly we both agree to disagree with each other at times and that is perfectly fine).

But one thing I am not certain about is whether you are a purist in that to achieve your aims and ends then people will suffer in the meantime which an acceptable price to pay for achieving the perfect solution … or whether you (like me) accept the ideal is minimising suffering?

What I mean is, it appears that the position of, say the Greens and some peace groups (and it seems the Robert Fisk’s and Noam Chomsky’s etc), is that the ideal is a withdraw of western forces from say, Iraq and leave the people there to sort it out themselves. The reality is that civilians will still die in the process, but that’s acceptable, because at least there is no western involvement or complicity etc.

Whereas I would say my ideal is to minimise (ideally stop) civilian deaths and if that means western forces remain there working alongside Iraqi forces then so be it at the invitation of the Iraqi Govt (and UN mandated) then so be it. Mind you it could be that you prefer this ideal as well, but the difference could be in ensuring that deaths of “insurgents” are minimised if not stopped ie not allowed to happen?

Australia is not going to be invaded by Indonesia – pragmatically because it doesn’t have enough armed force for external adventurism AND maintain its own internal control of the non-Javanese populations at the same time. Invade Australia, lose the homeland and then fail in the invasion.

Ok back onto the topic again and the Waihopai connection. But firstly, in your role as peace activist, you will be familiar with the tragedy that was East Timor (being invaded in 1975 whilst the west stood back). That history is well understood so let’s move forward to recent times. As you will know in 1999 the conditions fell into place for the “west” to assist the East Timorese with their independance, and Australia took the lead in establishing a UN mandated task force to ensure stability and drive out the remaining Indonesian backed militia etc.

I think I can assume that you are fully supportive of Timor Leste’s independance, right?

If so I think I can assume then that you, whilst perhaps preferring the ideal of the Timorese to have no outside western assistance, can accept that having for example NZ and OZ forces over there (and certainly not killing anyone) to ensure Timor Leste can establish good governance is actually a good thing, right?

If so, then you and the Ploughshare 3 then, need to realise that places like Waihopai are PIVOTAL in ensuring the security of places like Timor Leste by way of NZ (and thus OZ and sure the US too) are aware of what the Indonesians are planning. (Forget a Waihopia and Iraq connection, we’re talking about line of sight satellite tracking system, as I said before, grab a globe of the earth and a flat ruler, Waihopai cannot possibly “see” anything parked up Iraq ….. but apparently it can see those satellites/communications nearer the equator i.e. TIMOR LESTE.

And let’s not forget that whilst Indonesia currently is not seen as a threat to Australia as such, you will no doubt be also aware that in the other tragic case of West Papua, that despite Indonesia being a democracy now (fantastic), the Govt has not been able to (and no doubt won’t be able to) control those “rogue” elements of the Indonesian armed forces, the TNI, that control (at the point of a gun and via their proxy’s) very, very, very lucrative mining and timber felling industries there, that bare providing these rouge TNI elements many millions of dollars. It is critical that Waihopai (and other such western/NZ military and intelligence assets) be able to monitor these rogue TNI elements, which after all are killing and clearing out the native populations in certain areas.

Therefore can you now see what alot of Kiwiblog contributors have been saying, which is you and the Ploughshare 3 (and Keith Locke) are, when attacking Waihopai (as a means to get back at Uncle Sam for its Iraq invasion) are actually putting lives at risk, not only ANZAC/US/whatever forces in this region, but ultimately you are (inadvertantly) contributing to Indonesia complicity in West Papua (and who knows, thanks to Timor Leste’s new found gas an oil reserves) perhaps the very people of Timor Lester themselves.

If you accept my arguement, well, the right thing to do is admit the Ploughshare 3 got it wrong, and make amends. I don’t mean serve jail, the 3 were good intentioned in that the jury accepted it and the trial is over, but in my eyes a simple apology would be sufficent.
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March 20, 2010 10:47am
Bryla

Niggly,

I’m sitting in Wellington Railway station now, waiting for a bus to Otaki. Outside is a statue of Gandhi, who was influenced by events and Parihaka in his development of modern nonviolence.

I understand that you believe in armed force as a deterrent, and a corrective, but Gandhi would ask what kind of society are you really building that way, and are there better alternatives. gandhi had both a mystical and a pragmatic view of suffering. He often took on the suffering of others through fasting, in order to make visible the suffering of others – to whom the powers were paying no attention.

Psychologically, all people (apart from psychopaths) notice and are deeply affected by the suffering of others. When someone voluntarily takes on suffering, they begin to question and pay attention in a way that opens at least the possibility of change and further action. Nonviolence activists of any faith (even seculars) use these dynamics to advantage.

I understand the role of Waihopai in intelligence gathering, just as I understand the space-based nature of modern war-fighting (in which the US leads the world). Command, control, communications, and intelligence are greatly enhanced by space resources, and are called “force multipliers” with good reason.

Now, before I descend into the mechanics of “war-fighting” or “peace-keeping”, I’m going to ask whether or not you have confidence in the accountability of your government, its integrity, and its actual knowledge of how the US uses the Waihopai resource? Globally, Echelon has been exposed for its use in Commercial espionage (e.g. assisting Boeing over Airbus to win supply contracts), and diplomatic espionage (spying on UN Security Council members to influence their vote in 2003).

Are you sure that NZers would sign up for this kind of activity, and for it to be done at unilateral US discretion? Echelon is interrogated independently by each UK/USA signatory.

Then we might look at the alternatives. Milosevich in Serbia was removed from power and handed over to the ICC for trial through civil organisation. One youth group, Otpur, was funded by the US State Department to the tune of $24million, as part of that organisation, and it was all done in ways which strengthened democracy in that country. Iraq has cost some $3trillion, and has produced dire consequences.

Timor was a diplomatic failure by Australia long before it became a military atrocity. Whitlam, no doubt advised by “realists” in Foreign Affairs, consented to the military invasion. After war has started, nonviolent resolution and civil authority becomes orders of magnitude more difficult.

As for West Papua, colleagues of mine were involved in the negotiations that resulted in the OPM laying down its arms and becoming explicitly nonviolent (just as the ANC did in South Africa). That struggle has a fair way to travel, but is making progress.

It is for each person to make their own decisions about how they deal with these matters. I’ve chosen mine, but it doesn’t make me right – it just gives me a direction and a plan.

The Waihopai 3 were very humble in court, and frequently apologised for any inconvenience they caused. I doubt they’ll apologise for their intentions or their analysis, because they see themselves as making a contribution to restraining unaccountable, counter-productive state violence. Like me, they are anti-militarist and Christian, so I understand very clearly where they’re coming from.

So did the jury.
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March 20, 2010 11:19am
tom hunter

Psychologically, all people (apart from psychopaths) notice and are deeply affected by the suffering of others.

And when a psychopath – leading a group of like-minded psychopaths as an armed vanguard – successfully take over a society, pacifists become worse than useless, even Ghandi:

[the Jews] have in the Indian Satyagraha campaign in South Africa an exact parallel. There the Indians occupied precisely the same place that the Jews occupy in Germany. The persecutions had also a religious tinge. President Kruger used to say that the white Christians were the chosen of God and Indians were inferior beings created to serve the whites. A fundamental clause in the Transvaal constitution was that there should be no equality between the whites and colored races including Asiatics. There too the Indians were consigned to ghettos described as locations. The other disabilities were almost of the same type as those of the Jews in Germany. The Indians, a mere handful, resorted to Satyagraha without any backing from the world outside or the Indian Government. Indeed the British officials tried to dissuade the satyagrahis from their contemplated step. World opinion and the Indian Government came to their aid after eight years of fighting. And that too was by way of diplomatic pressure, not of a threat of war.

But the Jews of Germany can offer Satyagraha under infinitely better auspices than the Indians of South Africa. The Jews are a compact, homogeneous community in Germany. They are far more gifted than the Indians of South Africa. And they have organized world opinion behind them. I am convinced that, if someone with courage and vision can arise among them to lead them in non-violent action, the winter of their despair can in the twinkling of an eye be turned into the summer of hope. And what has today become a degrading man-hunt can be turned into a calm and determined stand offered by unarmed men and women possessing the strength of suffering given to them by Jehovah. It win be then a truly religious resistance offered against the godless fury of a dehumanized man. The German Jews will score a lasting victory over the German gentiles in the sense that they will have converted the latter to an appreciation of human dignity

The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imaged could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the God-fearing, death has no terror. It is a joyful sleep to be followed by a waking that would be all the more refreshing for the long sleep.
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March 20, 2010 11:28am
starboard

From Stuff…

“A woman was killed when a suspected drunk driver fled a police checkpoint and crashed into her vehicle in Blenheim last night”

Bastard should be charged with murder…then shot.
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March 20, 2010 11:34am
Pete George

It’s not just a problem with psychopaths leading like minded people – experiments suggest that the majority of ordinary people will carry out extraordinary cruelty under instruction.

Game of Death: France’s Shocking TV Experiment

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2010/03/100318_game_of_death_et_sl.shtml

It relates back to experiments carried out by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Milgram
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March 20, 2010 12:00pm
Johnboy

Shit I really miss Redbaiter.

Call him what you like but he always had a good answer for the liberal elite/wankers/peace activists/lefties/tossers/PC/tree-hugger/socialist toss-pots.

His single-minded hatred of all the above is sorely missed.

Thank God he will be back next week!
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March 20, 2010 12:06pm
tom hunter

Pete.

Indeed. And even aside from that is the conundrum in warfare that Most Afghans had no idea Al Qaeda even existed, in the same way that most Russians initially knew little of Lenin, most Chinese knew little of Mao, and only some 34% of Germans ever voted for the Nazis.
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March 20, 2010 12:27pm
Viking2

Indeed, bring back the Red man.

Hide protests over burden on Telecom
By MARTIN KAY – The Dominion Post
Last updated 05:00 20/03/2010

ACT leader Rodney Hide has attacked Government plans to make Telecom pay the lion’s share of a splurge on rural broadband – but says he does not intend resigning over the issue.

Mr Hide, who is also Regulatory Reform Minister, branded the plans a breach of National’s own regulations policy and a “sad indictment” on the Government.

He released a strongly-worded letter to Telecommunications Minister Steven Joyce that signals one of the biggest fallouts between ACT and National since the parties agreed to govern together.

“I’m very displeased and the reason I’m displeased is not only is it poor law-making, it also sends a signal to any investors into New Zealand that their investment isn’t safe, and therefore it makes it tougher to get the sort of infrastructure and the sort of investment we need to grow the economy,” he said.

He rejected suggestions his reaction would harm ACT’s relationship with National, saying both accepted there would be differences at times.

Mr Joyce said ACT’s opposition would not stop legislation, as the Maori Party, with many rural constituents, was in favour.

This week, Mr Joyce confirmed plans to force Telecom to bear most of the cost through changes to the Telecommunications Service Obligations, which effectively regulate the company.

Telecom will pay most of the $300 million to be raised through a new levy to increase broadband cover and speed, and from July will also pay the full cost of providing phone services, at a loss, to 58,000 rural customers.

Telecom warned the moves would wipe $168 million of its pre-tax profits over three years. Its share price fell 4 cents to a record low of $2.17 when the plans were announced on Tuesday.

Another National Fail as well. Telecom should shut down their system overnight and sell the parts for what they can get. This Govt. is no better than the last when it comes to stealing shareholders rights.
What the fuck goes on in their minds. Ahhh socialism of course.
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March 20, 2010 12:40pm
Bryla

I miss Bedrater too, but I can imagine his response:

The dirty commie motherf….ing sh..bag jurors are narcisistic retards causing all decent reasonable people to live in fear of the disgusting Islamic c…s and coc…..ers that want to rape our little children and stone our women before dismembering us at gitmo, sorry, abu graihb, sorry some hellhole in Iran. Get a brain ar…..es, and learn to be a little bit polite and respectful like I am.

Come to think of it, I don’t miss him that much.
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March 20, 2010 1:48pm
Kris K

Bryla,

Genuine question:
As you say you are a Christian, and that you believe civil disobedience is acceptable in some cases where lives are placed at risk, do you also support the destruction of, say, abortion clinics because they destroy the lives of children in the womb?
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March 20, 2010 2:03pm
Johnboy

Fuck off back to OZ hemorrhoid. BTW take Achmed and Russel with you.
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March 20, 2010 2:04pm
Angus

Here’s something for the peace activists to get their teeth in to.

http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/18/shaming-her-in-laws-costs-19-year-old-her-nose-ears/
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March 20, 2010 2:19pm
Bryla

Kris K, it’s not my particular issue but sure, I’d encourage anyone to act on their conscience and accept the consequences. I’d be happy if they were nonviolent and had a plan. but even if they aren’t and don’t it’s an improvement on apathetic folk who never go past having an opinion.

Johnboy, you really are just too, too kind. I don’t deserve all this attention from you and your elk.
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March 20, 2010 5:50pm
LeftRightOut

Angus (400) Says:

March 20th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Here’s something for the peace activists to get their teeth in to.

http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/18/shaming-her-in-laws-costs-19-year-old-her-nose-ears/

Angus, you’re about the 903rd right whinger to link to this and attempt to put the blamre anywhere except where it truly belongs – on a backward and barbaric people.

What do you suggest we do? Invade Afghanistan?
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March 20, 2010 5:56pm
Johnboy

The word is ilk Bryla.

Elk is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk

Here we call them Wapiti.
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March 20, 2010 5:57pm

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