General Debate 16 March 2010

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Pete George

Is the SuperGold card good value?

While it looks like any decisions will be purely political and based on the potential affect on votes, is it a fair government subsidy offering freebies to oldies? Concessions are uneven across the country, so some can get much more out of it than others depending on where they live. Should they have free non-essential benefits at all, or does it make more sense to subsidise only eg half price?

Is it a reasonable scheme? Or is everyone too scared of WP to address it?
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March 16, 2010 9:04am
Brian Smaller

I was at the North Island Secondary School’s rowing champs at Karapiro on the weekend. Great watching 1600 young NZers competing in such a hard sport. If any Kiwiblog readers are in the South Island next week then I recommend you get to Twizel to see the Maadi Cup.
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March 16, 2010 9:10am
Grant Michael McKenna

The 2010 Budget will be delivered on May 20th; so far I’m hoping for announcements on mining, tax cuts and perhaps something meaningful on crime. How disappointed will I be, on a scale on one to ten, with ten being suicidal and one being slightly morose?
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March 16, 2010 9:10am
malcolm

9; tax-cuts without indexed thresholds are a con.
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March 16, 2010 9:13am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/the-sub-prime-crash-is-explained/

“..I haven’t read Michael Lewis’s sure-to-be blockbuster The Big Short yet .. but everybody ought to watch his appearance on 60 Minutes last night.

The big news I guess would be that Lewis thinks Wall Street is “so disconnected from American life that it can’t be sustained,” in the words of Steve Kroft.

“He thinks it may take a while, but he believes that Wall Street as we know it has done itself in.”

Barring a revolution, howzat?

But the guy has a way with words (if you hadn’t noticed) and I think he puts the situation we find ourselves as well as just about anyone I’ve seen.

Here he is on why the billions in bonuses on Wall Street are unacceptable .. calling them an “elegant form of theft” (emphasis mine):

‘..Did they ever explain how they made all this money?

If you look at their businesses right now, they’re heavily government dependent.

If you were Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, or JPMorgan, you have access to a 0 percent loan in virtually unlimited quantities from the Federal Reserve.

You can take that money and re-invest it in Treasury bonds or in government agency securities and you will get a spread.

And you can do it over and over.

You’re essentially borrowing from the government, lending to the government ..

.. and taking a cut..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 16, 2010 9:14am
Captain Neurotic

I would like to be optimistic Grant but
I would only be lying to myself – cheeky 6 I say
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March 16, 2010 9:15am
petal

The NZ Herald’s shopping site is well grounded – these is the sort of kitchen ESSENTIALS you and I can afford

http://i41.tinypic.com/kdkh0w.jpg
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March 16, 2010 9:16am
MT_Tinman

There is a poll on Stuff – soccer world cup section – that showed when I looked at it just now that 52.3% of New Zealanders (votes tallied approx 13,000 at the time) are seriously deluded.

And these people get to choose our government?
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March 16, 2010 9:17am
MT_Tinman

Grant Michael McKenna (815) Says:
March 16th, 2010 at 9:10 am

The 2010 Budget will be delivered on May 20th; so far I’m hoping for announcements on mining, tax cuts and perhaps something meaningful on crime. How disappointed will I be, on a scale on one to ten, with ten being suicidal and one being slightly morose?

This is a National government Grant.

Take the OD now and save yourself the pain.
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March 16, 2010 9:19am
excusesofpuppets

The thought of mining our national parks, actually makes me a little bit sick. I’ve seen a few mines in my time, all of which are ugly. I have been shown some pictures of some “eco mines” that look passable, but the risk that this doesn’t happen? Risking a large part of a $21 BILLION dollar industry for what?

You know what, screw labour and all their nanny legislation, and screw the Green party for just being…well stupid…especially since the departure of Fitzsimmons. But if this goes ahead, I can name at least a dozen people right now who voted National, who will probably switch to Greens purely because of this dumb decision.
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March 16, 2010 9:20am
philu

this is a must-watch vid..

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/the-video-that-will-put-geithner-behind-bars/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 16, 2010 9:32am
MikeNZ

Drill baby drill!

Of course National won’t allow our pristine back wops to be blighted surely?
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March 16, 2010 9:32am
Tauhei Notts

MT_Tinman,
I had to have a look and was aghast.
The possibility exists that one must be a member of the Progressive Party to take part in that survey. To the 6% who think that New Zealand will top their pool; your day is coming up on 28th March. That is Palm Sunday and that is where you will have your penis – in your palm.
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March 16, 2010 9:33am
Murray

Who you going to make defamatory accusations against today phool. For a violent offender and drug abusing lay about you sure like to throw the shit about don’t you.
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March 16, 2010 9:34am
MikeNZ

can someone tell me how to sort this rip thing out please?
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March 16, 2010 9:36am
OTGO

And those people who switch to Greens because of any mining will be those sheeple who watch TV1 and TV3 segments about mining with pictures of our wonderful scenery in our national parks with some nice classical music playing while some reporter talks up the dangers of mining. Balanced reporting that ain’t. To balance it up I’d like to see a report of NZers driving Aston Martins, pissing up on Bollinger at NZ Cup day, taking overseas holidays in Milan because the minerals we sold to China and India allowed us an increase in wealth we were never previously able to achieve.
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March 16, 2010 9:36am
excusesofpuppets

Those people who switch to greens are the sort of transient voters who got National into where it is now. They pretty much vote on a single issue only. The last election, it was Smacking and Election Finance.

I don’t agree with their ethics, but hey, they are the ‘undecided voters’ who decide who gets to run the show.
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March 16, 2010 9:39am
Murray

I like the ieda of job and wealth creation myself otgo.

Dig more coal is the way to go. We’d rather look at trees than eat sounds like suicide to me.
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March 16, 2010 9:40am
Michaels

Is anyone else having trouble with (ihug) Vodafone email??
Can’t even get in via webmail.
And they talk about the XT network, this happens all to often!!!
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March 16, 2010 9:41am
grumpyoldhori

So can any of you so called Christians explain why this fuck should not resign and be charged with perverting the course of justice ?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7061540.ece

Or should those blokes take their own justice out on these fucks ?
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March 16, 2010 9:43am
stephen

To balance it up I’d like to see a report of NZers driving Aston Martins, pissing up on Bollinger at NZ Cup day, taking overseas holidays in Milan because the minerals we sold to China and India allowed us an increase in wealth we were never previously able to achieve.

John Ansell eat your heart out.
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March 16, 2010 9:51am
excusesofpuppets

# Murray (4675) Says:
March 16th, 2010 at 9:40 am

I like the ieda of job and wealth creation myself otgo.

Dig more coal is the way to go. We’d rather look at trees than eat sounds like suicide to me.
______________________________________________

People pay a lot of money to look at trees. Like, billions of dollars.
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March 16, 2010 9:53am
OTGO

Yes Michaels me too. I have just looked on the Vodafone support page and they acknowledge they are having webmail problems. They give the usual speil about working on it, don’t know when it’ll be resolved stuff.
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March 16, 2010 9:54am
Murray

Get a grip excuses, it’s not even an either or situation. And your grasp of the tourism industry in tenuous at best. It certainly does not create anywhere near the number of jobs that local industries do.

Go look at a few year books and then come back with some facts rather than your personal perceptions stated as fact.
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March 16, 2010 10:02am
Murray

grumpy your concern over religions is commendable. Your comment on this please http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16907
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March 16, 2010 10:04am
excusesofpuppets

okie dokie Mur. You’re a charming fellow aren’t ya. I will tottle off to some “year books”, because I was chocca-filled with facts, the $21 billion dollars the toursim I quoted isn’t already widely known. International tourism alone is worth almost 10 billion? I’ll go ask the Tourism ministry – or better yet, go look it up yourself. Thanks.

But you’re right. and mining is the ONLY way to create wealth.
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March 16, 2010 10:09am
andrei

So can any of you so called Christians explain why this fuck should not resign and be charged with perverting the course of justice ?

You sad fellow – you are going after a 70 year old man who was at a meeting 35 years ago concerning a priest who later, after being defrocked went on to abuse children.

A bad call was made by the Diocese then – bad calls are made by people in authority on a daily basis.

It is true the Church should be held to a higher standard – trouble is of course unlike your average bureaucrat who is a master of arse covering Churchmen are open and obvious a fact exploited by the mindless mob.
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March 16, 2010 10:10am
malcolm

Andrei I think you have misread the article:

has confirmed he was present at a closed canonical tribunal in 1975 when two child victims of Father Brendan Smyth were ordered to sign agreements under oath that they would not discuss what happened to them with anybody other than an approved priest
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March 16, 2010 10:19am
MikeNZ

If it can be shown that he knew of the mans offending and didn’t have him defrocked and prosecuted but allowed him to move to another parish then I’m with you grumpy.

More importantly he should be prosecuted as a matter of societal health.
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March 16, 2010 10:20am
Kris K

grumpyoldhori 9:43 am,

So can any of you so called Christians explain why this fuck should not resign and be charged with perverting the course of justice?

Grumpy, I think you’ll find that Cardinal Sean Brady is actually a Roman Catholic – from your article:

The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland resisted calls for his resignation yesterday, despite admitting that he took part in meetings where the victims of a paedophile priest were forced to take a vow of silence.

And I agree – the Roman Catholic Church needs to take responsibility for abuses by her priests against primarily young boys who are/were in their care/responsibility.

And one needs to seriously consider whether those that commit such abominable crimes are even Christians to start with. And similarly those that try to cover up and silence witnesses/victims to such crimes.

By their fruits ye shall know them …
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March 16, 2010 10:23am
KiwiGreg

” will tottle off to some “year books”, because I was chocca-filled with facts, the $21 billion dollars the toursim I quoted isn’t already widely known.”

What are you smoking?
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March 16, 2010 10:25am
Pete George

Those people who switch to greens are the sort of transient voters who got National into where it is now. They pretty much vote on a single issue only.

I’ve voted Green once or twice – do you call tactical voting a single issue?
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March 16, 2010 10:26am
philu

sheesh..!..andrei..

and there we all were..thinking it was just the church covering its own arse/reputation…

and just covering up the abuse..

..and just sending these priests to a new batch of boys..

eh..?

not the highest-motive-exercise you describe..eh..?

thanks for putting us ‘straight’ there..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 16, 2010 10:27am
James Stephenson

There is a poll on Stuff – soccer world cup section – that showed when I looked at it just now that 52.3% of New Zealanders (votes tallied approx 13,000 at the time) are seriously deluded.

I think what you’re seeing there is a symptom of the English heritage of so many New Zealanders…there’s nothing like a Football World Cup to bring out mass delusion in normally sensible people carrying those genes!
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March 16, 2010 10:33am
philu

“..There is a poll on Stuff …”

i mean..there you are..straight down the toilet..from the very get-go..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 16, 2010 10:36am
dime

heard the green co-leader on ZB last night. she was good enough to speak on behalf of all new zealanders. told larry what all new zealanders believe.

then the ginga freak from aussie was kind enough to speak for all new zealanders on ZB this morning.

amazing how the greens only get around 5% of the vote, even though they know how we all think.
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March 16, 2010 10:59am
Fletch

re: priestly cover-ups etc. Of course it is wrong but it is also a human response.

I think that back then, ANY group, agency or school that was found to have it’s members ‘interfering’ with people was probably deeply ashamed and embarrassed and didn’t know what to do except try to keep it quiet and move the offender to someplace they thought they would do less harm. With this current new ‘openness’ around the subject it’s too easy to look back in hindsight and say, they should have done this or they should have done that.
What would YOU have done had you been in his place in 1975? Gone to the cops and had the fellow thrown in jail? It’s really hard to say.

As I said, I don’t agree with the keeping quiet at all – it was wrong, but am I surprised? No. It’s human nature. Tell me an agency that wouldn’t try to protect it’s reputation.

I wonder how many secular groups have offenders out there that have been accused of the same thing that the media haven’t brought to our attention. They like to widely publicize any Christian organization but don’t bother overmuch to report abuse by secular agencies, although there is a report today of a Dutch teacher that abused 58 kids.
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March 16, 2010 11:02am
nickb

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3457144/Labour-MP-complains-about-noisy-toddler

More first class journalistic research…

It would take literally 10 seconds of research browsing the net to find that the blogger was NOT CLINT HEINE, who I am pretty sure does not even have children, but another poster on his website…
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March 16, 2010 11:08am
Brian Smaller

By their fruits ye shall know them …

Are we still talking about the Labour party?
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March 16, 2010 11:19am
RKBee

@dime10:59 am “amazing how the greens only get around 5% of the vote, even though they know how we all think”.

Thats more than the 1% that ask for our vote to run the country.
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March 16, 2010 11:33am
Kris K

Brian Smaller 11:19 am,

By their fruits ye shall know them …

Are we still talking about the Labour party?

If the shoe fits, Brian.
I’m a ‘fruit inspector’ from way back – it’s kind of one of my main methods to test an individual/group, of whatever makeup, as to their true base nature. It works pretty well in my experience.

And Labour certainly produced some pretty ‘bad fruit’.
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March 16, 2010 11:39am
cha

Homo Troughicis

1 When exactly did you add your mothers telecommunications expenses to your state paid Telecom bill?

2 How much per moth on average was your mothers state paid telecommunications bill?

She died 17 years ago.
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March 16, 2010 11:39am
malcolm

I think that back then, ANY group, agency or school that was found to have it’s members ‘interfering’ with people was probably deeply ashamed and embarrassed and didn’t know what to do except try to keep it quiet and move the offender to someplace they thought they would do less harm.

Fletch, that’s very weak. More-so for a church which puts such stock in moral absolutes. Hint: starts with ‘P’ and ends with ‘olice’.
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March 16, 2010 11:48am
Fletch

Malcolm, of course it’s weak and I’m not saying that it isn’t. It is wrong. But I’m saying I can understand the feelings involved.
You’re right in the the Church should be the moral absolute and again, I am not surprised. The Church is also run by imperfect human beings. Even while Jesus was on earth he and his Church were betrayed by Judas who was actually there. Do we think it will be different now? As Jesus said, “For if they do this when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

As a visiting Cardinal said when he visited NZ back in 2007 –

“When all is said and done, you are still talking about less than one out of 25 priests over a period of 60 years.

“When civil society finally accepts the challenge of making its own statistical survey as carefully and thoroughly as the Catholic Church has, I think we will find that the statistics of the Church are nowhere near as bad as the statistics of the rest of society.”

I’m not trying to use this an excuse; I think the abuse of children is a terrible thing, but I do feel for the 97% of priests who haven’t done anything.
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March 16, 2010 12:17pm
malcolm

Fair enough. FWIW I think the Catholic Church knew exactly what it was doing, hence the fuss about this bloke being involved in a meeting where kids were coerced into a vow of silence. For what purpose other than to protect the church (and deny law and justice)?

And all this talk of 1-in-25 serves only to deflect from the reality that the 1-in-25 were repeatedly protected and moved around by a significantly lower ratio of higher-ups within the church.
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March 16, 2010 12:40pm
Pete George

I sympathise with the 97% of priests (or however many there are) who seem to be innocent, but suggesting priestly stats may be “nowhere near as bad” as the rest of society may be a bit optimistic because:
– of the potential increased risks associated with unnaturally suppressed sexual urges
– the attraction to the priesthood of opportunist abusers
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March 16, 2010 12:50pm
KiwiGreg

@ Dime I think they know how we SHOULD think. Mental adjustments and corrections so that becomes how we DO think will only occur if we have a collective brain fart and actually gave them any power.
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March 16, 2010 12:58pm
Bryla

Hey groovers,

District Court no 3 in Wellington’s Ballance St has been closed to the public for one day and a half. Judge Harrop has been hearing argument from Counsel, and has made his decisions aboutthe shape and scope of the trial. In just over half an hour he will tell the jury and the public what those decisions are, and any remaining evidence will resume.

After all the evidence is given, the Prosecution and defence Counsel will give their closing address.

Then the judge “sums up” the case (by going through all the evidence in summary form, being careful to include all key elements), and then gives his directions (instructs the jury on what things the law requires them to consider and decide upon in coming to their verdict).

Finally the jury is sent out to deliberate, and if all goes well return a verdict.

If the jury convicts, there is a sentencing process to follow.

The trial will most likely take up the rest of this week, and may spill into next.

I’ll report on the Judge’s decisions this evening, and my feeling is they will be significant – both for the defendents, and for the processes of law in this country.

For gamblers, I’m still prepared to bet against a conviction. Any takers?
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March 16, 2010 1:47pm
Komata

On a different note, submitted for what it is worth:

The following notice (in all its red and yellow print-garishness) has appeared on noticeboards at the University of Waikato:

UNITE! ON CAMPUS

‘STUDENTS ARE WORKERS
WORKERS ARE STUDENTS
$15 MINIMUM WAGE NOW!
SIGN THE PETITION

Guest Speaker Matt McCarten

The wording of the poster is interesting (especially ‘Worker’s are Students’ which has certain ‘Animal Farm’ echoes), as was ‘Unite’s’ appearance on the UOW campus during the recent Orientation Week – circulating a petition which promises the impossible, while sugar-coating it as being a student’s ‘right’. Fifteen Dollars an hour? Absurd and unaffordable.

It would seem that it is not only Mr Goff who hasn’t done the math’s and serves as an interesting example of the creeping, oh so pervasive socialist agenda, carefully targetting the ‘sheeples’ in the name of ‘Cool’. Truth was, as always a casulaty.

As I said, for what it’s worth . . .
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March 16, 2010 1:52pm
philu

not much..komata..not much..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 16, 2010 2:03pm
RRM

No, Komata – those are the naive dreams of student politicians, that is all.

Thanks for posting though. I miss student politicians, they were always good for a laugh!
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March 16, 2010 2:07pm
Pete George

They don’t do Economics at Waikato?

Why has $15 been chosen for this minimum wage campaign? Someone thought it sounded about right? It’s a round figure? Chants well?

Or have employment, unemployment and wage scenarios been analysed and this is the magic number that was calculated?
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March 16, 2010 2:12pm
Komata

RRM

Agreed – dreams certainly but it was the presence of the name of a certain Mr. Matt McCarten which interested me, indicating that there is something approaching a Labour Party ‘official’ approval operating here-in, which would seem to be a somewhat unsual state of affairs, given Mr. McCarten’s known political views and ranking within ‘the party’

Pete

No idea. Someone, somewhere has decided that this amount ($15) is ‘the figure of desire’ and is pushing it for all its worth – presumably through all tertiary instiutions. The fact that the $15 per hour is being actively ‘peddled’ by a union (‘Unite!’) would seem to indicate that the amount being advocated has official sanction and that this is official ‘Unite!’ policy, although, to date I haven’t seen the MSM make any comment (Though perhaps that isn’t so surprising). Also, given the fact that the unions and the NZ Labour party are very closely intertwined, this too would seem to be a reflection of what Labour is really thinking – and that they (Labour) trying to persuade the ‘sheeples’ that it is a good idea. IF (and only IF), that is the idea, the ‘young and niave’ sheeples are certainly taking the bait, especially as ‘signing a petition’ is ‘sooooo cool and politically aware’

As Alice is recorded as saying:, ‘Curiouser and Curiouser. . .’
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March 16, 2010 2:34pm
philu

komata..are you that out of touch..that you don’t know that mccarten/unite having been running this minimum wage campaign..?

but more to the point..your point is..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 16, 2010 2:37pm
Viking2

Ratio of Maori’s in Australia greater than that in New Zealand

* Craig Johnstone
* From: The Courier-Mail
* March 16, 2010 3:21PM

THE Maori component of the expatriat New Zealand population in Australia was greater than the Maori component of the total population residing on the other side of the Tasman, a leading population expert says.

Professor Peter McDonald, who is chairing a public inquiry into the need for a population policy in Queensland, said one of the biggest drivers of the state’s growth was newly arrived New Zealanders due to the relaxed travel and settlement agreements between the two countries.

He told the inquiry’s Brisbane hearings that two major components of population growth – New Zealand migrants and foreign students – would be difficult to reduce.

Studies show there are about 110,000 Maori in Australia, representing about one in four of all New Zealand migrants who have settled here.

This compares with about 15 per cent of New Zealand’s total population declaring themselves to be Maori.

Prof McDonald, the director of the Australian Demographic and Social Research Institute, and fellow population and infrastructure experts Professor Lyndsay Neilson and Keith Hilless will head the inquiry set up by the Local Government Association of Queensland

The inquiry is due to produce an interim report by May.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/ratio-of-maoris-in-australia-greater-than-that-in-new-zealand/story-e6freoof-1225841489067
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March 16, 2010 7:13pm
Luc Hansen

You raise a good point Viking2. So many people are unaware of the fact that Maori were, in fact, even before the Treaty of Waitangi era, active participants in international trade. They exhibited a natural entrepreneurial bent, as exhibited by their eagerness to engage in trade with the British.

It’s no surprise to see that they are at the forefront of Kiwis taking advantage of more favourable economic conditions on Australia, as is one of my sons.
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March 17, 2010 8:21am

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