General Debate 14 March 2010

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Pete George

Deborah Doddington doesn’t beat around the bush pointing the finger at potentially major problems in the Act camp.

“Hide can no longer have faith in his maverick caucus not to get lost.”

“Now Garrett has destroyed the Act brand.”

“Richard Prebble once said small parties don’t survive leadership changes – maybe Heather Roy is determined to prove him right.”

If they can’t get their act together then Act may not remain together for long.
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March 14, 2010 10:16am
Pete George

(noticed an accidental typo on her name too late to edit)
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March 14, 2010 10:21am
Yvette

Regarding SST ‘revelations’ on New Zealand sporting venue security, at the same time they are selling papers and embarrassing Government and Police they are telling any agent, here or overseas [via Internet], how easy a target New Zealand is.
Meanwhile the Government has recently been publicising NZ SAS activities in Afghanistan, pushing forward public heroes, and aligning us with the US ‘interference in the Middle East.
Have they not heard of self-fulfilling prophecies?
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March 14, 2010 10:29am
Pete George

SST is planning next week’s exposé – they are planting people in newspaper offices to see if media companies have sufficient protection against stupidity.
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March 14, 2010 10:36am
Yvette

🙂 They shouldn’t waste their time – the answer is already obvious,
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March 14, 2010 10:57am
Redbaiter

Texas Progressives find their brainwashing educational tactics under fire. Parents are awakening to the dangers of liberal domination of the education sector and are starting to fight back.

Quote

AUSTIN — The State Board of Education tentatively approved new standards for social studies Friday with members divided along party lines — some blasting them as a fraud and conservative whitewash, others praising them as a tribute to the Founding Fathers that rightly portrays America as an exceptional country.

Snip

The board majority’s conservative approach to “culture, government and the changing political landscape” was impossible 13 years ago when the social studies curriculum last was updated, said David Bradley, R-Beaumont.

“There’s been a cultural and political shift in Texas, at least in the policy-making level,” he said. “We all represent a constituency. Elections matter.”

In 1997, Bradley was on the losing end of an 11-4 vote.

Unquote

“There has been a cultural and political shift”…??? Well, how about that.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6910429.html

The whining pack of subversive scum at the New York Times says it differently of course-

Quote-

Other changes seem aimed at tamping down criticism of the right. Conservatives passed one amendment, for instance, requiring that the history of McCarthyism include “how the later release of the Venona papers confirmed suspicions of communist infiltration in U.S. government.” The Venona papers were transcripts of some 3,000 communications between the Soviet Union and its agents in the United States.

” After the vote, Ms. Knight said, “The social conservatives have perverted accurate history to fulfill their own agenda.” ”

Unquote.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

Just one small step in the long march.
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March 14, 2010 11:17am
Luc Hansen

The NZ Herald yesterday included two “fluff’ stories on the fighting in Afghanistan. Both were notable for a complete lack of analysis on important topics like, what are we doing there, who are we fighting?

While on the individual level there is much to admire about the individuals featured in the stories, Willie Apiata and James Mckie, I wonder if either of these gentleman think about why they are in a faraway land, not theirs, killing locals in the name of…well, what, exactly?

And I would say one reason for the failure to address these issues is the fact that the cloud of fecal dust that envelops Afghanistan (sewage treatment not being one of the highlights of Afghan infrastructure) also envelops the truth about our involvement in this fight (I hesitate to use the term war, because I am not convinced that there is, in fact, one monolithic, united enemy).

The original mission was to “get” Bin Laden, “dead or alive,” according to the then US Fantasist in Chief (now exchanged for a more user friendly version of the same). Although this was a spectacular failure, success can be measured in terms of the inability of Bin Laden’s motley crew to mount anything like a serious attack on us, the West. The battle against Bin laden long ago morphed , as it should, into a covert exercise of intelligence gathering, including planting informants in their midst.

So we are no longer fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The mission now seems to be to “save” Afghans from themselves, even if this means killing large numbers of these unfortunate people, an undeniable moral hazard.

At the very least, our presence prevents Afghans from determining their own course, as we do through our interference in so many other non-European countries.

And the tragedy is that this interference is dressed up as “doing good,” and that this myth about the US, a country founded in genocide, slavery and domination of the resources it deems essential to its own existence, is so widely believed.
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March 14, 2010 11:20am
Redbaiter

You’re right Luc. We should just nuke the fuckers and get out of there.
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March 14, 2010 11:22am
Yvette

Luc Hansen – And the tragedy is that this interference is dressed up as “doing good,” and that this myth about the US, a country founded in genocide, slavery and domination of the resources it deems essential to its own existence, is so widely believed.

with which we are now associated

While on the individual level … Willie Apiata and James Mckie … think about why they are in a faraway land, not theirs, killing locals in the name of…well, what, exactly?

and perhaps ponder if too much publicity could make their families targets, or if the SST will divert retaliation to a more general tragedy?
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March 14, 2010 11:38am
RKBee

Isn’t it time we talked about giving young people major incentives to travel in and too NZ, plus other major incentives for the young to stay live work and raise their families in New Zealand. Instead of contiuing to provide our older people discount and incentives to live here, as well as giving our imergrates encouragment to bring in their older family members. Shouldn’t we instead be concentrating on the young. Who do we think is going to pay for all our old age retirement, If New Zealand doesn’t put in major incentives and policies that encourage the Worlds young to come to New Zealand, a place for them to come work live and play be vibrant and grow. New Zealand’s future is soon becoming a retirement home for the old. And we need to do something about now, or the reallity is we will need to join Australia just to pay our future retirement bill.
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March 14, 2010 11:42am
Pete George

Talking about brainwashing and the media, is it healthy in a democratic society for one person to run one organisation unchecked, with a progressing agenda for public propaganda supporting one party, like Roger Ailes? Attacks on “the left” for media subversion is a smokescreen for what may be actually happening to a greater degree.
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March 14, 2010 11:46am
Bryla

In the spirit of Hemingway, Hans Christian Anderson, and Hunter Thompson, here is my report on Day 5 of the Waihopai trial:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1003/S00153.htm

Cheers
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March 14, 2010 11:48am
cha

Meanwhile, Texas State Board of Education member Mary Helen Berlanga walked out of the meeting today, in protest over the Republican religious fanatics’ attempts to turn sociology into a “whites only” course.

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — A longtime State Board of Education member accused her colleagues of “whitewashing” curriculum standards Thursday and walked out of the panel’s meeting in frustration amid heated debates about race and the inclusion of Hispanics in lesson plans.

The board had rejected an effort to include the names of two Hispanic Medal of Honor recipients and one black recipient in lessons for a world history class, but agreed to revisit the amendment for an American history class. It also approved an amendment that deletes a requirement that sociology students “explain how institutional racism is evident in American society.”

“I mean we’ve already been whitewashing all of social studies up to this point and now we’re doing it in sociology?” Democratic board member Mary Helen Berlanga said after Republican Barbara Cargill’s amendment was proposed. “You’ve got to leave some integrity in this.”

The amendment was adopted on a 10-5 party line vote.

Of course there’s always the ignorance and stupidity of young earth creationist Don McLeroy who happens to be the head of the Texas Board of Education.
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March 14, 2010 11:48am
Redbaiter

” is it healthy in a democratic society ”

Funny that you should ask that question (leaving aside its putrid inaccuracy) now when the mainstream media has been dominated by Progressives for decades, and still is. The notion that FOX is a powerful influence is a farce. You need to read up on the difference between cable and broadcast, you lame repeater of left wing propaganda.
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March 14, 2010 11:50am
Redbaiter

” here is my report on Day 5 of the Waihopai trial ”

I had to stop reading after the first few lines. The disgust at such a rancid perversion of truth is too over powering.
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March 14, 2010 11:53am
Pete George

Funny that you downplay the influence of Fox today, you more often try to talk up it’s influence.

The disgust at such a rancid perversion of truth is too over powering.

To claim this I presume you must have been at the trial?
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March 14, 2010 11:54am
Angus

I want to see the ploughshare group over in Tibet doing their utmost to help the locals there against the oppressive Chicoms . . or protesting against their fellow Christians who are getting macheted to death in Nigeria.
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March 14, 2010 11:59am
cha

Blogging the Social Studies Debate

12:38 – Let the word go out here: The Texas State Board of Education today refused to require that students learn that the Constitution prevents the U.S. government from promoting one religion over all others. They voted to lie to students by omission.

Here was the amendment again: “examine the reasons the Founding Fathers protected religious freedom in America by barring government from promoting or disfavoring any particular religion over all others.” And this board, on a vote of 10-5, said they don’t want Texas students to learn about this basic protection for the religious freedom of everyone in America.
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March 14, 2010 11:59am
Angus

or protesting against the fact that their fellow Christians are getting macheted to death in Nigeria.
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March 14, 2010 12:03pm
Redbaiter

” you more often try to talk up it’s influence.”

Fuck I get tired of correcting your shallow ignorant perceptions. I congratulate FOX for its success over its rivals.
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March 14, 2010 12:05pm
reid

@Luc 11:20

FFS, you lefty twit. Don’t you know anything. Oh, I forgot, you’re a lefty, therefore you don’t. (Cogito lefty ergo ~~sum~~ Error – does not compute)

Afghanistan Luc, has a country called Pakistan on its border. Pakistan has something called “real nukes + delivery systems”)

Al Qaida’s main strongpoint is in the Pashtun region of Pakistan.

If the US gets out of Afghanistan, that opens the door to a Taliban style govt in Pakistan.

To the extent you can trust anything you read on the web, the US already has a plan to remove Pakistan’s nukes the instant that looks like arising. Naturally that’s a drastic step but the alternative is to expose the US to nuclear attack in one or more major metros. That cannot be allowed to happen and it would be a very foolish President who took steps now that lead to that down the track.

That’s why they are in Afghanistan and why they will remain in Afghanistan.
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March 14, 2010 12:06pm
pentwig

@ Bryla in LaLa land.

What a load of diversionary rubbish.

It would appear the prosecutor has got the criminals to admit their criminal actions.

Game, set and nonviolent match.

Guilty!

So off back to Australia with you, please ensure you take your muck racking attitude with you.

Our beautiful peaceful country is too good for the likes of you.
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March 14, 2010 12:12pm
LeftRightOut

That’s why they are in Afghanistan and why they will remain in Afghanistan.

Rather than in Pakistan, the country where al qaeda have their stronghold, the country where the nukes are, the country that has an unstable government unable to control regions such as Pashtun.

Yep, makes perfect sense to me.

In the meantime, all we are doing in Afghanistan is propping up a drug funded kleptocracy and raisng the next generation of jihadists.
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March 14, 2010 12:12pm
cha

Being hacked to death doesn’t even make the front page Angus but Nollywood… in search of corporate stimulant does.
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March 14, 2010 12:12pm
Bryla

Angus,

“I want to see the ploughshare group over in Tibet”, or Nigeria.

That’s a great idea Angus. At last an opportunity for us to cooperate. tell you what, you go and do the advance work, and help set up some of your friends and colleagues to do the civic development work here, and I’ll organise a small team to do NVDA in Tibet. Of course we’ll need funding, but a skilled and experienced democracy activist like yourself will be able to organise that pretty easily.

Or…..there’s an outside chance that you’re nothing but an opinionated blowhard without substance or capacity.

Which is it?
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March 14, 2010 12:12pm
Redbaiter

Cha, I get tired of your endless references to left wing opinion sources, especially when you’re too gutless to express your own view.

I guess that’s as a result of the few times when you’ve mustered that courage, you’ve had your arse handed to you on a plate.

——————————-

“I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional separation of church and state,” said David Bradley, a conservative from Beaumont who works in real estate. “I have $1,000 for the charity of your choice if you can find it in the Constitution.”
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March 14, 2010 12:13pm
Redbaiter

“Or…..there’s an outside chance that you’re nothing but an opinionated blowhard without substance or capacity.”

Like you. Using democracy to undermine it, but too gutless to take your message somewhere it would really do some good.
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March 14, 2010 12:15pm
Angus

“Which is it?”

Nah. I’m not the one choosing to “protest” against phantom enemies like the USA because you know that your personal safety is never in question. That’s you. If you’ve got the substance and capacity you’d be prepared to do the hard yards, but of course you won’t. Poseurs.
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March 14, 2010 12:16pm
Bryla

Oh no! There are some people who don’t like me. Boo hoo! Even if they remain anonymous, and parrot the easy prejudices, and are without influence or respect in their own communities – the weight of their displeasure utterly disheartens me and makes me want to slink away.

hee hee hee
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March 14, 2010 12:20pm
LeftRightOut

I’ll claim the 1k, “Article the third …… Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”

From the Bill of Rights, aka the first 10 amendments to the constitution.

For the meaning of establishement

“3. That which is established; as:
(a) A form of government, civil or ecclesiastical; especially, a system of religion maintained by the civil power; as, the Episcopal establishment of England.”

http://www.dictionary.net/establishment

So, how do you want to pay the $?
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March 14, 2010 12:22pm
Redbaiter

” Oh no! There are some people who don’t like me.”

Here, you’ll get asked the hard questions. I notice you have no answers apart from the usual hapless and narcisstic bluster of a charlatan exposed.
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March 14, 2010 12:24pm
Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left

Maybe its because I just got out of bed 30 mins ago, but this just doesnt add up

from

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3446307/Tax-cuts-what-you-ll-get

” The Sunday Star-Times understands the government has settled on lowering the tax rate for those earning between $14,000 to $48,000 – which represents the bulk of wage earners – from 21% to 19%.

The May budget is also expected to lower the tax rate for those earning up to $14,000 from 12.5% to 10%.

The Star-Times also understands the government will, in one hit, lower the top rate for those earning more than $70,000 from 38% to 33%, rather than doing it gradually.

If the changes are implemented, someone on the average wage of about $48,000 will be about $5-$10 a week better off, according to New Zealand Institute of Economic Research figures to be published this week. Those earning more than $70,000 would be about $20 a week better off”
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March 14, 2010 12:27pm
Bryla

Hey Bedrater! Hard questions? Where are they? I’ve seen some informed comments, and honestly held opinions I respect. None from you or yours though. Come on, I’m ready.
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March 14, 2010 12:30pm
Redbaiter

Why do you only carry out your protests in countries that are democratic and where you know you will be protected by that very democratic situation?

Its not democratic countries that are the problem. It is totalitarian dictatorships like China, using every dollar of foreign exchange they earn to build up their nuclear and conventional arsenals that are the real threat. When did your group last protest against the actions of the Communist Generals who rule China?
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March 14, 2010 12:35pm
Bryla

It’s my great good fortune to have been born in a democratic country, thanks to the efforts (and blood) of my ancestors.

2 things

First, my civic responsibility is to maintain and ensure government accountability in my own society, so I act in Australia on issues relevant to Australia, in order to meet my civic responsibility.

Second, democracy is not something that’s achieved once and then remains in place forever. It needs to be protected and remade in the face of efforts to subvert it. In my youth Bjelke-Petersen tried to subvert it in Queensland. In the US today, Habeus Corpus is under threat, and the US Supreme Court has found that Donald Rumsfeld breached the Geneva conventions.

So I’d ask you – why stick your head in the sand, and fail to meet your own responsibilities to NZcivil society?
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March 14, 2010 12:43pm
Redbaiter

Such pathetic answers prove my thesis. You and your group are just narcissists and blustering cowardly charlatans.
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March 14, 2010 12:45pm
Yvette

Bryla – where are you and your Waihopai friends on demonstrating against NZ SAS involvement in Afghanistan?
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March 14, 2010 12:55pm
tom hunter

Talking about brainwashing and the media, is it healthy in a democratic society for…..

Awwwww! Been reading Howell Raine’s little whinge and moan have you? Pining for the days of Scotty Reston an co., when the All The News That’s Fit To Print was decided by the pontiffs of the Big Apple.

…… for one person to run one organisation unchecked, with a progressing agenda for public propaganda supporting one party, like Pinch Sulzberger?

I think you and Howell are projecting again.
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March 14, 2010 12:59pm
LeftRightOut

Redbaiter, please make a $500.00 donation to the Red Cross and another $500.00 donation to Doctors without Borders, then post the receipts here.
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March 14, 2010 1:05pm
Bryla

Yvette,

I can’t really answer for anyone else, and my ignorance of NZ disqualifies me from an opinion.

I Australia I oppose all weapons. And so I don’t approve of armed troop deployments at all.

In Cairns, there are no locations where troops deploy from, and so I don’t do local actions against deployment.

Politically, Australia is a very long way from breaking with the US on military matters. e.g. John Howard’s government committed to a $34 Billion arms build up to equip Australia for riding in the US posse. Kevin Rudd has increased that to $100 Billion.

I want to address, and actually obstruct and interfere with actual war-fighting capacity.

Pine Gap is one of the most critically important ELINT and photo work anywhere in the world.

Shoalwater Bay (the bi-annual exercisie between 20,000 US Marines and Navy, and Australian insurgents, is growing in importance to the US as it is slowly forced to stop training in other countries.

US warship visits to Cairns see ships, sailors and marines going to and coming back from war. We see the Flagship of the 7th Fleet.

Over the past 5 years, I’ve worked withgroups both secular and Christian to intervene into each of those war-fighting components.

Right now I’m going off to be a tourist in Christchurch, and look for a green stone gift for my wife and son.

Cheers
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March 14, 2010 1:14pm
pentwig

Bryla in LaLa land

What civic responsibilities?

Who appointed you to be responsible for civic responsibilities?

How does performing criminal acts confirm to civic responsibilities?

What is the performance criteria of civic responsibility?

Just for starters.
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March 14, 2010 1:23pm
Redbaiter

” I Australia I oppose all weapons. And so I don’t approve of armed troop deployments at all.”

You insufferable preaching fraud. If it was not for our armed forces and the Waihopai base we would be under the rule of the Chinese Generals too, and when you attack those facilities and our troops in such a cowardly manner, you do the work of our enemies. Those enemies who would strip you of every right you enjoy today.

You are treasonist cowardly charlatans, and your “mission” is nothing but an example of spoilt brat sixties hippy narcissism mixed with the poison of leftist extremism that only navel gazing self absorbed mungbeans such as you are deranged enough to buy into.
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March 14, 2010 1:30pm
tom hunter

I want to address, and actually obstruct and interfere with actual war-fighting capacity

That’s not strictly true. You’re obstructing and interfering with only one group’s capacity for war – and predictably enough that’s the side that allows you to spread your voice widely and at worse threatens you merely with a few months in the clink when your obstruction takes physical form.

An easy and comfortable pose that is entirely appropriate for a well-fed and peaceful lifestyle.
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March 14, 2010 1:35pm
philu

has anyone yet tried to hook redbaiter into the national grid..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 14, 2010 1:48pm
Yvette

Bryla – my ignorance of NZ disqualifies me from an opinion.

Probably.
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March 14, 2010 1:52pm
LeftRightOut

Come on Redbaiter, where’s that $1000?

You bet, you lose, you pay up. Or are you just another rightwingranter with no scruples?
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March 14, 2010 1:54pm
Redbaiter

A cowboy from Texas attends a social function where Barack Obama is trying to gather support for his Health Plan. Once he discovers the cowboy is from President Bush’s home area, he starts to belittle him by talking in a southern drawl and single syllable words. As he was doing that, he kept swatting at some flies that were buzzing around his head.

The cowboy says, “Y’all havin’ some problem with them circle flies?”

Obama stopped talking and said, “Well, yes, if that’s what they’re called, but I’ve never heard of circle flies.”

“Well, sir,” the cowboy replies, “Circle flies hang around ranches. They’re called circle flies because they’re almost always found circling around the back end of a horse.”

“Oh,” Obama replies as he goes back to rambling. But, a moment later he stops and bluntly asks, “Are you calling me a horse’s ass?”

“No, sir,” the cowboy replies, “I have too much respect for the citizens of this country to call their president a horse’s ass.”

“That’s a good thing,” Obama responds and begins rambling on once more.

After a long pause, the cowboy, in his best Texas drawl says, “Hard to fool them flies, though.”

———————————-

With thanks to Diamond Mair at Crusader Rabbit.
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March 14, 2010 1:58pm
philu

i see obama will get his health reform package passed this week..

and he is using an ‘executive-privilege’..first popularised by bush jnr…(snicker..!)..to introduce the financial reforms wall st is so dreading..

that’s one effective ‘horses’ arse’..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

and redbaiter quoted karl marx..?..

w.t.f.is with that..?
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March 14, 2010 2:02pm
Grant Michael McKenna

Are we going to go to war with Japan over whaling? If not, why are we allowing a group to engage in self-declared acts of war against Japan from our national territory?
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March 14, 2010 2:14pm
LeftRightOut

We’re not. Does it hurt when you sue your brain coz you don’t seem to use it much.
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March 14, 2010 2:25pm
LeftRightOut

REDBAITER – WHERE’S THAT DONATION OF $1000.00?
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March 14, 2010 2:26pm
tom hunter

RIiiiiiiiiiP
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March 14, 2010 2:36pm
Inventory2

In a war between the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and the nation of Japan, I wouldn’t be backing the former. “Peace activist” is such an oxymoron, don’tcha think?
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March 14, 2010 2:49pm
calendar girl

“Or…..there’s an outside chance that you’re nothing but an opinionated blowhard without substance or capacity.”

Bryla has posed here as an ever-so-reasonable visitor, very complimentary about the beauty of our country, and even professing to revel light-heartedly in a robust exchange of views. It didn’t take long, however, for the hate to begin to show through in this kind of ad hominem outburst. Very restrained and Christian-like, I must say!

Having read the full Bryla account of day 5 at the trial, I am appalled by his description of attempts to use the NZ court system as a cheap platform for the promotion of unqualified pacifism. I regard defences being paraded at the trial in Wellington as irrelevant distortions of what New Zealanders expect under this country’s rule of law. Bryla, a foreign guest in our country, is an unashamed publicist of and cheerleader for behaviour repugnant to the ideals of New Zealand’s constitutional democracy.

We Kiwis regard Australians as our great friends, sharing much of our colonial and regional DNA in the same way as we have shared in the military defence of true western values over time. In the eyes of this one mere citizen of New Zealand, Bryla, you are unwelcome here. Please take your laughable media accreditation and your form of meddling in other countries’ affairs, and do whatever you like in your own country. In Australia I suspect that you will receive even less sympathy than here for your extremist views.
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March 14, 2010 2:49pm
wikiriwhis business

At the risk of getting pilloried on this site, Matt mcCarten had an outstanding article in the HoS today.

His comment on Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson shamelessly missing jail time will be perdictably ignored by the

two who could easily afford a civil case. And McCarten knows it.

Brilliant.
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March 14, 2010 2:51pm
wikiriwhis business

Why does Jerry Brownlee rail against rising power prices but say nothing about gas prices

why does the govt have no balls when it comes to petrol companies?
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March 14, 2010 3:09pm
Rod

One of the most civilised and balanced – and therefore informative – debates on the global warming issue I have seen
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2010/3/13/lindzen-on-tvo.html
When the quasi-religious activism and personal monetary agendas are removed from the scientific debate, there seems to be some real prospect of sensible progress – but the hysteria is too deeply entrenched for that to happen very often, which makes this a rare interview.
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March 14, 2010 3:35pm
Hagues

Bryla “It’s my great good fortune to have been born in a democratic country, thanks to the efforts (and blood) of my ancestors.”

Bryla “I oppose all weapons. And so I don’t approve of armed troop deployments at all.”

So quite happy to enjoy the benefits of the armed deployment (and loss) of your ancestors, but not happy for others to fight for the same benefit to be extended to others? Would you be happier if your anscestors also apposed all armed deployment and just surrendered to the Germans and the Japanese?
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March 14, 2010 3:40pm
reid

“At the risk of getting pilloried on this site, Matt mcCarten had an outstanding article in the HoS today.”

He does raise an interesting and important question wiki. However there’s a distinction between control and ownership [of Auckland City’s profitable assets] and I’ve got no problem with it in principle if all Joyce and Key are talking about is handing over operational management to those people – whoever they are (and it would be nice to know that). That’s a fair step from selling them off to those people which is what McCarten implies will happen.
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March 14, 2010 4:09pm
pentwig

Bryla in LaLa land.

You have the easy questions, the hard ones were to follow on your reply.

A hollow man.
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March 14, 2010 4:20pm
wikiriwhis business

Well Reid, in a democracy, we’re sposed to know who we being led by.

Faceless beaureaucrats with no accountability is not Kiwi but whayt politicians have been dreaming of for years

and it looks like we just going to hand them this scenario on a plate.
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March 14, 2010 5:21pm
Hurf Durf

Hey Puke, still trying to paint the Taliban as a national liberation movement, or have you given up trying to prop up a falsehood that big?

and he is using an ‘executive-privilege’..first popularised by bush jnr…(snicker..!)..to introduce the financial reforms wall st is so dreading..

I, too, am looking forward to the double dip recession that will result, phool.
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March 14, 2010 6:28pm
Redbaiter

Hey all you useless country wrecking old commies out there. Get ready. There’s some serious public odium coming your way in a decade or so.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1257631/How-baby-boomers-bust-Britain-Self-indulgence-left-country-financially-socially-morally-crippled.html
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March 14, 2010 7:14pm
Fale Andrew Lesa

hahahahaha

War against Japan over whaling?

We would last less than a day without our closest allies accompanying us.
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March 14, 2010 7:21pm
kaya

“The financial difficulties of local governments in consequence both of the inflation and deflation of real estate values demonstrates strikingly the unwisdom of a revenue system concentrated so heavily upon real estate….” – Herbert D. Simpson, Meeting of the American Economic Association, 1933

get ready for the payback.
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March 14, 2010 7:54pm
side show bob

WB “Why does Jerry Brownlee rail against rising power prices but say nothing about gas prices”?. Why would he, every rise in the gas price greatly enriches the sludge fund. Shit if the government wanted to do something about gas prices they could fix their tax intake but they won’t do that, will they.
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March 14, 2010 7:56pm
Grant Michael McKenna

The comment that I made as to war with Japan was of course in reference to the Sea Shepherds, who have called Peter Bethune “the first New Zealand prisoner of war to be transported to Japan as a political prisoner since World War II”. Hosting a group which wages war on a nation is an act of war, although it is moot whether the SS have in fact undertaken an act of war.
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March 14, 2010 8:40pm
MikeNZ

Bryla (31) Says:
March 14th, 2010 at 12:12 pm

Angus doesn’t have to go an do your advance work as groups like yours would never actually go somewhere where you are at risk.
No you are happy to give succor to our enemies by protesting against colonial white hegemony and the wicked consumer capitalists where you have protections in law and people have died and are dying to keep them for you.

You are the blowhard with your response to Angus to shut down criticism on an open site.

I sincerely hope your mates get 3 yrs and fine and damages as both punishment and as a deterrent to others. I’m only sorry the other “christians” amongst, you who provided aid to their breaking the law and knew about their intentions, haven’t the character to stand up and be counted in this democracy they live in.
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March 14, 2010 8:40pm
kiki

redbaiter the main turning point in NZ with respect to baby boomers was the election of muldoon to destroy labours individual super scheme.

Oddly the problem started with the war generation who sacrificed to ensure the next generation would never suffer like they did, I have read a book (can’t remember title) which laid out the taxes paid and the tax load was almost negative for the boomer generation with the costs carried by the generations either end.

This will unwind in almost every western country but it won’t be pretty. Already we hear about old people in homes receiving bad treatment and the call for more money but wait until the flood gates open of all those who have no family or supportive family.

Put up taxes and the young will leave to be replaced by low wage migrants. Cut spending and leave many in squalor. nice choice.
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March 14, 2010 8:40pm
tom hunter

Redbaiter

Along similar lines was a column from Robert Samuelson the other day, about the “Millennials” future dealings with various fabulous big government programs. I rather liked the title: Chump Generation
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March 14, 2010 8:47pm
Redbaiter

Thanks Tom. Demographics are interesting.
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March 14, 2010 9:31pm
calendar girl

kiki @ 8.40pm: “I have read a book (can’t remember title) which laid out the taxes paid and the tax load was almost negative for the boomer generation with the costs carried by the generations either end.”

I doubt that. Until Douglas’s tax reforms of the mid-1980s, baby boomers (and others) under Muldoon were paying top marginal tax rates of 60%, and ultimately 66%. These top rates cut in at absurdly low levels of income. While there was no GST to pay at that time, the overall tax burden was far from “almost negative” – it was indeed punitive. At the same time, first mortgage interest rates bounced around in the 15-20% range, making house-buying for boomers (then in their productive phase of around 30-40 years) a truly daunting challenge.

You should feel grateful that you were not a victim of the tax and mortgage interest environment of that period that you mistakenly believe was so benign.
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March 14, 2010 10:58pm
tom hunter

Redbaiter
I should finally respond to what you wrote last Sunday about my replies to Pete George, where I addressed his link to the WaPo piece on US education:

Tom, while I appreciate the effort, I really don’t think it is worth it. These people already know all of what you are telling them. They know it, but they don’t care.

They have no problem with the deceit, as they see it as advancing their political agenda and anything within the confines of democracy, honest or dishonest, is therefore acceptable, including mass deceit by a legion of left wingers posing as objective observers and calling themselves the media.

There is no profit in trying to persuade zealots like Mr. George. He already knows. The only advance we can make is exposing him and his acolytes to those who cannot yet see the deceit and are generally honest but innocently unaware of how they are being fooled and lied to and used.

Mr. George and his ilk are not due reason and respect, they are only due derision and contempt, and as long as we give them the former and not the latter, they will be winning.

When it comes to logical argument, you have to go past them. To do otherwise is a waste of energy

I’m under no illusions about Pete, and have not been since he first turned up on Kiwiblog spouting all the usual claptrap about the US healthcare debate.

But whether it is Pete, Luc or Toad I simply treat them as avatars for the ideas they spout, and engage accordingly. I know I won’t convince them but I am going past them even if it does not seem that way. I must say that at least Pete usually does not repeat specific claims when they’ve been specifically debunked – unlike Luc, who simply lays low for a couple of months before once again braying the same nonsense. That’s a real old-fashioned propaganda technique more suited to the days when memory holes really existed. I’m quite pleased that he does not get that the world has changed.

As far as derision and contempt is concerned, we will just have to agree to disagree. I prefer to analyse their mindless assertions. That takes time I don’t often have of course, so sometimes I just want to mock them. Still, exposing their cheap, shoddy attempts at emotive manipulation will hopefully draw the derision and contempt of a wider audience, which ultimately is more effective than simply telling them to fuck off.
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March 14, 2010 11:01pm
Redbaiter

Appreciate the response Tom. Agree entirely with your comments on Luc. Memory hole or rat hole, there’s definitely something weird that allows him to regularly black out past discussions. I call it the bubble effect, wherein they live in a permanent state of denial where anything that challenges their Progressive political paradigm cannot be acknowledged. Unless you’re prepared to discuss politics from a Progressive perspective, you just don’t exist. Any idea outside that paradigm does not exist. They live in a bubble of self delusion and ignorance. As you say, a weakness that can be easily exploited.
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March 15, 2010 12:14am
Pete George

Still, exposing their cheap, shoddy attempts at emotive manipulation will hopefully draw the derision and contempt of a wider audience

I’d rather come in here with an open mind interested in learning from others rather than as someone who overrates their own opinion as the only comprehensive and correct version.

Some topics I know reasonably well and will argue them more. Due to lack of time or interest in researching I sometimes just dive in to something and add a quick comment like most people here most of the time. Sometimes I just put forward something I have seen that I think could provoke some discussion, it doesn’t mean I agree with it, especially not fully.

Most posts on a blog like would be more inclined towards being a quick quip rather than a thesis.

The US health debate is complex and I only have a superficial knowledge of it, so what? I learnt something off you responses, I didn’t agree with everything, and couldn’t be bothered debating your arrogance. You seem to see it as a major victory, I see it as someone who rates their own opinion too much. The health system there is widely recognised as being far too expensive for everyone that can access it, and excludes many millions of people who don’t have sufficient access to reasonable care.

It’s funny seeing you discuss like that with RB – he is at least as bad as Luc at repeating deliberate propaganda. As he frequently does, his last post could as easily be about himself if you replace “Progressive” with “Conservative”. He has an obvious depth of knowledge and there is some intelligence there, but that is dumbed down by his pathological passion.

You say this of Luc “I’m quite pleased that he does not get that the world has changed.” Who wants to return to McCarthism? Who wants to return to when education was done right? (He hasn’t said when exactly that was supposed to be). Who wants return to when all families fitted the perfect prescription? Who wants the media to return to when they weren’t “controlled by the left”. That is not only ignoring that the world will always keep changing, it also seems to ignore the fact that his utopia never existed in the first place.

Tom, if you learnt to accept that opinions other than your own can have some value, that ideologies other than your own may have some merits and that ideologies you applaud have their own flaws then you might be find a wider more appreciative audience.

innocently unaware of how they are being fooled and lied to and used

Who seems to idolise Glen Beck? Don’t we all have a degree of innocence, and of guilt? I’m well aware of the strength and weaknesses of the media. And of the commercial world – surely there is a candidate for having a major hand in manipulating society partly for it’s own selfish good which can be contrary to the good of the target market? The health industry, especially in the US but also here, must be one of the prime culprits.
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March 15, 2010 7:15am
Luc Hansen

How interesting watching Tom and TB in a mutual masturbation session.

Tom, you poor deluded being, you have never debunked anything of mine. What you do is, as your soulmate RB does so often, present outright lies as truth. Why you do that is a mystery to me. I seek out information and make judgments in accordance with generally accepted legal principles and societal norms. You just take a position based on your Eurocentric, prejudiced mindset.

And I don’t “lay low”. I lead a busy life, busier now than a little while ago, and I usually either respond to ignorant nonsense on here, which is repetitive because the ignorant nonsense on here is repetitive, or I comment on current news items.

Pete, I suggest you look up the definition of propaganda and have a think. I see you often claiming to be objective, yet you, for example, cast doubts on established science – you consort with the maniacs while claiming to be the only sane one. That doesn’t wash with me. You need to get your bum off your fence before those splinters get infected.

Hurf Durf, another who hides behind a pseudonym, I suppose he doesn’t want to jeopardise his future job prospects for outing himself as the immature, simplistic extremist he really is, asks whether I think the Taliban is a national liberation movement.

The answer is no. The Taliban is the Pashtun arm of Afghan resistance to occupation by the West, again, which is not united and, when they all achieve their aim of ejecting the Western forces, will turn on each other. It’s always been like that over there, it seems.

But it’s none of our business. We have the means of ensuring Al Qaeda never regains a foothold there, or anywhere, and Afghanistan has now turned into the classic quagmire that will end with abrupt withdrawal, as all such quagmires do. Afghans know those lessons more than most.
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March 15, 2010 8:23am
tom hunter

Pete

My objection to your opinions is not the opinions themselves but the fact that many of them seem to be gut thoughts that are rarely backed up by any argument – and your gut obviously swings left in more than just a political sense:

The health system there is widely recognised as being far too expensive for everyone that can access it,….

And you never ask whether government might have a lot to do with that. In your world it’s just a given because the US health care system is (from an older quote of yours):

Highly commercial, where denying health care is good for profits. And there are plenty of profits.

A statement like that does not emerge from having only superficial knowledge of US healthcare: it’s a bone-deep expression of the contempt you have for profit, and it could be applied to any industry or business and leads to bending towards politicians and theoreticians who claim that they can fix the ‘problem’ with government action. No wonder you might vote National next year.

Saying that you could not be bothered debating my arrogance is just another way of saying that you had no counter arguments. Look around the blogs – you think any of the most prominent bloggers and commentators aren’t arrogant? Christ – Public Address and Politico reek of it and for them I see only a quiet respect from you.

Tom, if you learnt to accept that opinions other than your own can have some value, that ideologies other than your own may have some merits and that ideologies you applaud have their own flaws then you might be find a wider more appreciative audience.

I voted for Labour in 1999 – also 1984 and 1987 – and although I have no solid memories of the ’93 and ’96 campaigns I was still registered in Wellington Central and suspect I voted for (groan) fucking Chris Laidlaw. And although I cannot vote in the US the Presidential Candidates I would have voted for (based on my memories of them) are as follows:
1980 – Carter
1984 – Reagan
1988 – Dukakis
1992 – Clinton
1996 – Clinton
2000 – Gore
2004 – Bush
2004 – McCain

Since we’re having this little discussion about ‘merits of idealogies’, why don’t you tell us your voting history – to demonstrate your moderate bonafides.
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March 15, 2010 8:29am
krazykiwi (formerly getstaffed)

Hurf Durf, another who hides behind a pseudonym

As do you “Luc Hansen”
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March 15, 2010 8:32am
Pete George

I have never claimed to be sane Luc.

What established science have I cast doubts on?

Can you give me examples of where I have sat on the fence? I’d rather not have my opinions ring fenced by ideology. Discussing over then fence is usually more productive than two people on either side shouting at a brick wall.
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March 15, 2010 8:33am
Pete George

To be honest Tom I can’t remember specifics on my voting history, each election I make a decision and move on. I make my electorate vote based on which candidate I think would represent the electorate best, I don’t care about the party for that. My 2008 vote probably went Green or Labour, I knew National would romp in and preferred they didn’t get too big a margin. I have given National votes in the past – 2005 I wasn’t keen on Brash, but a third Labour term wasn’t good for us either, so that might have been Green (I’m happy for a minimum Green presence, no more). Looking ahead unless Green and Labour improve immensely I can’t see myself voting for them, Act is a possibility but it depends on whether (or how) they sort themselves out internally, which leaves National (too soon to call, this year is a major test for them) or a throwaway party vote. Or there could be something new to promote. I have never voted for Peters.

Yes, I think that politics is a major part of the US problem (health and otherwise) – and one reason for that is it is far too dollar dependent.

I’m not anti-profit. I have mostly worked for or owned small businesses. I think private enterprise is usually the preferred option, it just often needs restrictions, especially with larger companies. But there are some problems with the profit model – the tobacco industry is a prime example, encouraging people to get addicted to something they don’t need that compromises health – and life. The health industry is more complex – there’s no doubt that many drugs have made a huge positive difference to health outcomes, but I think in the quest for greater profits they are often pushed far more than is good for the recipients.

I’m curious why you stoke RB’s ego while dissing Luc for much the same approach.
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March 15, 2010 8:56am
Luc Hansen

Pete, over climate change.

You are actually non-ideological enough to understand that if the vast majority of climate scientists say it is so, then we need to act as if it is so. In this particular case, as I will have (hopefully) children and grandchildren around into next century, I take it all very seriously.

As for your insult in comparing me to RB, please substantiate.

Most of what Tom and RB write is just unadulterated, juvenile crap that they have probably been fed since birth and never questioned. But I could be wrong. They could be deliberately ignorant and amoral.
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March 15, 2010 9:09am
Hurf Durf

Hurf Durf, another who hides behind a pseudonym, I suppose he doesn’t want to jeopardise his future job prospects for outing himself as the immature, simplistic extremist he really is, asks whether I think the Taliban is a national liberation movement.

The answer is no. The Taliban is the Pashtun arm of Afghan resistance to occupation by the West, again, which is not united and, when they all achieve their aim of ejecting the Western forces, will turn on each other. It’s always been like that over there, it seems.

Ah, so a total reversal of your previous position then. Thanks for the clarification, Puke.
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March 15, 2010 3:57pm

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