General Debate 21 February 2010

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LeftRightOut

Religion topic of the day.

Does suffering improve us?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/feb/15/lent-suffering-religion-philosophy

John Richardson: Does suffering improve us? Few of seek it, but those of us who undergo great torment and survive can emerge all the better

Shame about those who suffer and don’t survive, ay?

Julian Baggini: You only need to look at the evidence life throws at us to realise that if suffering disappeared tomorrow, we’d be better off

Yep, I reckon Julian’s the winner.

What do you think?

Why are religions so focussed on suffering and torment?
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February 21, 2010 10:04am
Don the Kiwi

Back from church early are you, LRO? 😉
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February 21, 2010 10:15am
LeftRightOut

No, just on my way out now to see if I can lift a wafer from communion to see if it really can turn into flesh.
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February 21, 2010 10:26am
Jack5

More on the campervan rubbish n sewage disposal problem that was aired in Kiwiblog recently.

Perhaps it’s time to make toilets mandatory in all rented campervans, as some indicate is the position in some countries.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/3351982/Tourists-turning-NZ-into-rubbish-tip-says-operator
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February 21, 2010 10:34am
nickb

Does anyone else think that Richard Boock is the most pathetic wet handwringing journalist in NZ??

I wish he would fuck off and stop ruining the sports section of the SST, another bizarre rant today about our sportspeople being gutless in considering pulling out of tournaments in India.

Well Richard, when you yourself have been the target of a threat, we will take your concerns more seriously, however I am not aware of any al-Qaeda threats against left wing pinko journalists. Until then shut the hell up, and keep writing your colums about the pervasive racism in New Zealand croquet, or the danger to life of being hit with a cricket ball, etc etc..

On a happier note, does anyone think the upcoming Aussie tests are our best chance to knock them off since 1993? Of course we said this in 2000, 2002, 2005 etc etc, however the Australian team does not appear half as dangerous as the past. Their pace attack is no more spectacular then any other team going around, and their batting lineup is full of
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February 21, 2010 10:35am
Auberon

Perhaps the traditional, print newspaper companies would be able to arrest some of their slide against the evil internet if they could get their distribution right and actually deliver the newspapers people have subscribed to.

I subscribe to both the HoS and the SST. The HoS typically arrives no earlier than 10am. Today it’s not even here yet. The SST is just as patchy. And on at least three weekends this year one or other paper hasn’t arrived at all. If these companies want to keep customers the paper should arrive by 7am, no later. It’s pathetic service.
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February 21, 2010 10:38am
Rachael Rich

General Debate has now turner in to a cesspool. As soon as certain people pop in the debate turns to the same things so hands up for the following rules to be implemented:

– No discussions on religion – ALL religion
– No debates on Jews, Muslims, Palestine and Israel
– No debates on Climate Change

Maybe DPF can set up a separate GD for all of the above. And if any of the above are in a current news item, DBF will set up a new thread.
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February 21, 2010 10:38am
Johnboy

RR: Why not include sex, racisim, prostitution, beneficiary bashing and politics on your list and we would have a much better standard of debate here. 🙂
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February 21, 2010 10:45am
Pete George

I think there should be no discussion in GD on what topics should or should not be allowed. There should be a separate thread for that too.
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February 21, 2010 10:48am
dad4justice

Should we have a separate thread for people with more than one brain cell PeteY?
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February 21, 2010 10:49am
nickb

Don’t know what happened to my post.

But carrying on from it, the unfortunate thing is that we have possibly the weakest seam bowling attack in international cricket, this will count against us in the tests. Their is big responsibility on the shoulders of Guptill, Ingram, and McIntosh. They can bully Bangladesh, but can they foot it with Johnson, Bollinger, etc? We shall see
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February 21, 2010 10:51am
LeftRightOut

dad4justice (5903) Says:

February 21st, 2010 at 10:49 am
Should we have a separate thread for people with less than one brain cell PeteY

Yes, and it can be found here.
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February 21, 2010 11:11am
TimG_Oz

“On a happier note, does anyone think the upcoming Aussie tests are our best chance to knock them off since 1993?”

You are correct – this is quite a weak Australian team compared to those in the last 15 years. However, you are overlooking the fact that the current NZ cricket team is the most pathetic excuse for a cricket team I have ever seen in my lifetime.

Maybe Vettori batting at 6 will save you. But I doubt it.
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February 21, 2010 11:12am
Redbaiter

Quote

Arizona Speed Cameras Incite a Mini Revolt
Los Angeles Times

Arizonans drive long distances on their highways, and they like to do it fast. But since the Grand Canyon State began enforcing speed limits with roadside cameras, motorists are raging against the machines: They have blocked out the lenses with Post-it notes or Silly String.

During the Christmas holidays, they covered the cameras with boxes, complete with wrapping paper. One dissenting citizen went after a camera with a pick ax.

Arizona is the only state to implement “photo enforcement,” as it’s known, on major highways and is one of 12 states and 52 communities, plus the District of Columbia, with speed cameras, according to the nonprofit Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

The cameras, paired with radar devices, photograph vehicles exceeding the speed limit by 11 mph or more. A notice of violation — carrying a fine of $181.50 — is then sent to the address of the vehicle’s registered owner.

In California, speed cameras are illegal, but Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger proposed a program to add speed enforcement capabilities to 500 red-light cameras to generate $338 million for the 2010-11 budget. The proposal is unlikely to be a part of the Legislature’s upcoming budget recommendations.

State Assembly Budget Committee Chairwoman Noreen Evans (D-Santa Rosa) has described the proposal as “silly.”
“It’s using big-brother tactics to balance the state budget,” she said. “It’s outlandish.”

That’s certainly been the reaction in Arizona, where the cameras have incited a mini revolt.

Initially, the cameras were thought of as a revenue generator, expected to bring in more than $90 million in the first fiscal year of operation. But from October 2008, when the program began, to October 2009, the cameras generated about $19 million for the state’s cash-strapped general fund.

Unquote

Heart warming to see the Arizonians are not as willing to be bled dry as NZers, whose response to these devices has been to lie down, shove their arses in the air and beg for more.
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February 21, 2010 11:18am
nickb

Haha. I tend to agree with you Tim, unfortunately.

Why, oh why in the 4million + people in NZ can we not find someone who can bowl at 150km/h? (and does not break down with injury every game)
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February 21, 2010 11:20am
MT_Tinman

nickb if you read Boock you deserve all you get.

As to the badly selected, badly coached and atrociously led ND invitational XI’s chances against Oz in the upcoming two test series you must be joking.

This is a bowling line-up that had to resort to cheating to bowl Bangla-fucking-desh out for christs sake and a “batting” line-up who struggled to dominate the same team “led” by a cancerous sulking prick with no redeeming virtues.

And that’s just their strong points.
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February 21, 2010 11:24am
Redbaiter

” Why, oh why in the 4million + people in NZ can we not find someone who can bowl at 150km/h?”

Obviously we need more government funding, taxpayer funded training programs, WINZ counselors and surely somewhere there’s another politician with a regulation who can fix it.
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February 21, 2010 11:25am
nickb

Heh. Not an optimist then I take it Tinman.
Fair enough, supporting the NZ cricket team is not conducive to optimism sometimes haha.
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February 21, 2010 11:38am
reid

Tiger Woods announces return to sex:

PONTE VEDRA BEACH, FL—In an announcement highly anticipated by sex fans around the world, Tiger Woods told a small gathering of reporters, family, and lovers Friday that the most dominant fornicator on the planet would soon return to sex.

“Not being able to get out there and have sex has really been tough on me,” Woods said. “I’ve missed it. I love fucking with all my heart.”

Woods said that during his brief time away from sex, he couldn’t stop thinking about one day resuming his daily regimen of sexual intercourse with random women who look vaguely like his wife, only skankier….[continued]
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February 21, 2010 11:44am
Redbaiter

– No discussions on religion – ALL religion
– No debates on Jews, Muslims, Palestine and Israel
– No debates on Climate Change

Well to hell with that then- here’s Vanessa Amorosi-

http://www.sbs.com.au/rockwiz/past/328/Vanessa-Amorosi

Is that OK???
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February 21, 2010 11:48am
Johnboy

Meanwhile back to our local sex hero news:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/news/3354941/Fiji-police-recommend-charges-for-Robin-Brooke
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February 21, 2010 11:49am
Pete George

Vanessa Amorosi- ok, but that’s about it.

I like the bassline. Good voice. The lyrical phrasing often doesn’t gel with the melody. Pleasant enough song but nothing memorable about it.
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February 21, 2010 12:18pm
petal

“Does suffering improve us?”

Answer: dad4justice

QED
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February 21, 2010 12:33pm
eszett

Heart warming to see the Arizonians are not as willing to be bled dry as NZers, whose response to these devices has been to lie down, shove their arses in the air and beg for more.

Well, Red, then tell us, how many speed-cameras have you destroyed? Where is your “heart warming” civil disobedience?
Or is it again all bark and no bite, as usual.
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February 21, 2010 12:41pm
Luc Hansen

I’m amazed at the power one crank phone call can have. Raises all sorts of possibilities. Anyone for a call to the IPCC? Tell them, I don’t know, maybe that Kiwiblog is coming to get them?
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February 21, 2010 12:43pm
TimG_Oz

“Why, oh why in the 4million + people in NZ can we not find someone who can bowl at 150km/h?” ”

A couple of reasons:

– Cricket is a minor sport – of the 4 million, how many actually play Senior Mens cricket
– The coaching standards and money aren’t there – Mitchell Johnson was bowling at around 130-135 when he first made the Aussie team
– It’s actually a pretty hard thing to do (accurately, at least).

I’d love to see NZ get up, and I think that with the ODI specialists (Bond, Oram, Styris etc) they have a chance. Aussies will be very complancent. But lets get serious – the only real cricket is Test cricket, and the Kiwi Test side is really pathetic …
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February 21, 2010 12:44pm
Pete George

The problem the Black Caps have is that while it is easy enough o to pull off the occasional surprise win in one day it’s a lot harder to keep a surprise going for five days.

I agree our biggest chance in the upcoming series is Aussie complacency on wickets they are not so familiar with – but complacency shouldn’t last for five days either.
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February 21, 2010 12:48pm
Redbaiter

” Pleasant enough song but nothing memorable about it.”

Philistine.
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February 21, 2010 12:51pm
virtualmark

Now now Redbaiter. Using words like “Philistine” is just going to get us back to the whole Jews, Muslims, Palestine & Israel thing Rachel didn’t want to see again 🙂
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February 21, 2010 1:01pm
Pete George

Ok, I was wrong, I jumped the gun. While I didn’t notice any great hooks in the song there is one thing that is memorable – how imperfect the word perfect is for the most important word in a song. It’s not a word that can easily express what it’s supposed to mean, and it doesn’t flow easily when sung.

Progressive is another word that would be hard to meld into a melody, unless maybe it could be spat out derisively.
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February 21, 2010 1:04pm
virtualmark

Why can’t NZ Cricket organise something akin to golf’s long driving competitions to see if we can unearth some new fast bowling talent.

In the innings break in the ODIs measure out a pitch, setup a speed radar, and then open it up for all comers to run in as fast as they can and fire a ball down the wicket. Big cash prize to anyone who gets over 140kmh. And then a lot of coaching and training to see if they can fire them down at that speed ball after ball after ball.
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February 21, 2010 1:09pm
Rachael Rich

Excellent work people. Varied discussions on Cricket and Vanessa Amorossi are what GD should be about.

Philistines is allowed as it sticks with the music them – Virgins and Philistines was a song in the 80’s by the The Colourfield 🙂
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February 21, 2010 1:34pm
Redbaiter

Wow, I’m pleased we’re permitted to talk about Vanessa.

Here’s one that’s probably more up Pete’s Progressive/ Philistine alley-

http://www.sbs.com.au/rockwiz/past/327/Vanessa-Amorosi
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February 21, 2010 1:48pm
Inventory2

Sadly, it would be misguided to expect any significant success from the Clack Caps in the next four or five years, especially in test cricket.

Bowling-wise, the cupboard is bare. An attack spearheaded by Chris Martin and Daryl Tuffey won’t strike fear into the hearts of opposition batsmen. Batting-wise, there is cause for just an iota of optimism. In the test match at Hamilton, Guptill, McCullum and McIntosh (2nd innings) played excellent test-match innings.

I’ve been supporting New Zealand cricket for the better part of fifty years, and I’m not about to quit now. Sure, the immediate future looks bleak, but true fans stand by their teams regardless.
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February 21, 2010 2:01pm
jaba

talking about relegion .. just watching the replay between Everton and Man utd .. sad day indeed
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February 21, 2010 2:06pm
Inventory2

Yeah jaba – it’s always a tragedy when The Scum gets beaten 😉
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February 21, 2010 2:11pm
Johnboy

“I’ve been supporting New Zealand cricket for the better part of fifty years, and I’m not about to quit now. ”

That almost sounds like a relegion to me IV2.

I think you better stop talking about cricket right now.
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February 21, 2010 2:21pm
TimG_Oz

If you guys really want NZ Cricket to improve – here’s some tips

– Get behind Climate change – no use having all this rain in October November and March.
– Play Grade cricket on proper ovals with turf picthes, not synthetic pitches on parks made for rugby with overlapping boundaries
– Get it back on free to air TV
– Make sure they actually play international cricket in NZ (it’s gone awol – nothing between Dec-Jan!)
– Import some Indian stars. India accounts for 70% of revenue in the game world wide, and any interest in the NZ scene is going to bring $
– Import some Australian players … some of the second string Aussies would be walk up starters to the NZ Test team.
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February 21, 2010 3:03pm
jaba

we drove through Kaikohe on the way to Opononi on Wednesday and what a shocker .. apart from ignorant drivers, there were youths (aged 13-18 or so) hanging around the area by a library (maybe they were lost) and Wholesale Liquor Store. A car load of 18-30 yo’s turned up, windows down all smoking to pickup some grog (wife wouldn’t let me hang around to see what they got) and as we left the parking area we noticed about 3 groups of people that included school age kids lying around in the shade .. this was about lunchtime on a school day. We stopped in a small park to give the dogs a drink/stretch/pee and a van load of “people” drove past and leaned out of the window and yelled out abuse .. they may have been saying “hi, have a nice day” I guess. We couldn’t get our arses out of there quick enough and didn’t stop when we returned.
All I could think about was where were my taxes going and what use are school stds when so many don’t bother going to school.
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February 21, 2010 3:04pm
Shunda barunda

You guys crack me up, all the grizzling and bitching about religion and then first post is another big piece of bait and then a steady string of subtle hints.

Can’t we talk about something else? 😉
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February 21, 2010 3:05pm
Redbaiter

Glenn Beck’s speech to the CPAC conference today. Progressives should watch it at their own risk.

http://www.therightscoop.com/watch-glenn-becks-rousing-keynote-speech-at-cpac-2010/
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February 21, 2010 3:10pm
Yvette

jaba – “… what use are school stds when so many don’t bother going to school.”
__________
I am told by a primary school teacher that absenteeism is indeed a major issue. National standards and a voucher system for the top 10% and lower 20% of learners is going to do nothing [in the case especially of the lower 20%] if they are at school for only about two thirds of the days they should be. I don’t think this factor was raised in recent threads on education.
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February 21, 2010 3:22pm
dad4justice

Yvette – the red cross provide food for many primary school kids in my city. Are we a third world country?
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February 21, 2010 3:34pm
Whafe

It amazes me, well not really that MISS Clark speaks from a political viewpoint whilst here under UN business……

As she seperated from that whimp she is married to, with now in media being referred to as MISS….
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February 21, 2010 3:36pm
dad4justice

Whafe – is it another story Peter, Peter, had a wife and couldn’t keep her…….
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February 21, 2010 3:40pm
Inventory2

Going back to the original wind-up contributions to the “debate” today, does anyone else wonder whether LeftRightOut is billyborker circumventing his ban?
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February 21, 2010 4:05pm
cha

Meanwhile, former CPAC chairman Mickey Edwards writes, Why I’m Not at CPAC

Ronald Reagan would not have been welcome at today’s CPAC or a tea party rally, but he would not have wanted to be there, either. Neither do I.
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February 21, 2010 4:07pm
dad4justice

Invent2 – fugley-billyborker-leftrightout- all speak of only having one leg. Just like insane Burton!
Checkmate fug cake!
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February 21, 2010 4:28pm
Robert Black

I see Fijian police have reccomended that Robin Brooke be charged for both incidents.

Well done.

I hope he does in fcat get charged despite his civil settlements.

And the silly sausage went on Close-up with theb Walrus saying he couldn’t recall anything about the incidents.

Tough to dig a defence now isn’t it Robbie?
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February 21, 2010 5:47pm
Steve

10.04 it started.
During the day people asked a few things.
Very slow day on GENERAL DEBATE.
Those Devil Dodgers need a life. You are not intelligent, you are not the smartest on the planet. You are fuckwits that piss off the general public.
Have sex and travel
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February 21, 2010 6:32pm
Shunda barunda

What the hell are you talking about Steve?
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February 21, 2010 7:24pm
nickb

Steve judging by your last post I would perhaps suggest that you are the fuckwit.
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February 21, 2010 7:29pm
jaba

phoenix won .. yehaa
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February 21, 2010 7:46pm
Pete George

Yeah, good work by the Phoenix. It’s good to see a better level of soccer played regularly in NZ. And success for the Cake Tin too.
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February 21, 2010 7:56pm
Whafe

Sweet sweet result for the great roundball game……….
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February 21, 2010 8:29pm
kaya

Well if you really want to introduce music and female singers, here is Floyd’s classic – Great Gig in the Sky played live at Versailles in ’87. They use 3 hot female vocalists (Clare Torry did the original album version). If you never saw this it is brilliant, the 3rd singer brings tears to the eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD17OGkc5fA&feature=related
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February 21, 2010 8:53pm
Whafe

Add to that kaya, Brain Damage off of Dark Side of the Moon, stunning womans voice in that one, gives me goosebumps every time I get Floyded, which is once or twice per week at least!
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February 21, 2010 9:00pm
Pete George

Ha, another class of music altogether.
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February 21, 2010 9:36pm
calendar girl

“It amazes me, well not really that MISS Clark speaks from a political viewpoint whilst here under UN business……”

I’m not sure that she was here on UN business, Whafe. As she heads the UNDF, that might involve her admitting that the country she led 1999-2008 is indeed of third world status. Unless hers was a “begging bowl” visit, of course.

No, I think she was here on personal ego business, collecting gongs and telling us all (even her former Labour colleagues) how to run the country that she left in such a financial mess – NZ was in recession 6 months before the world credit crunch became evident.

I wonder what country she pays tax to from her US$500,000+ salary. If she pays tax here at 38%, then I’m happy to grant her a public opinion on our government policies and practices. If not, she should remember that, as a UN officer, she is expected to remain apolitical in her statements and actions. Being “passionate” about NZ (what a pathetic, hackneyed word in these circumstances) is not an acceptable excuse from a visiting UN representative.
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February 21, 2010 9:54pm
Luc Hansen

I must have a little rant about today’s example of Michael Laws’ usual vile spoutings in the SST. Today he took aim at RNZ, the jewel in the crown of radio in NZ.

As usual, he promotes absolute lies as fact, I see it so often it makes me sick, and he is exemplary in his use of the straw man argument.

The most egregious today is his statement that:

The National Programme is defended as some sort of bulwark against the decline of western civilisation. Without it, news and current affairs in this country would collapse

What a load of crap! Who the fuck says that? Some fucking anal political wannabe wanking in his lounge in Wanganui? (Come on, you can’t say being mayor of Wangafuckingnui – have you ever been to the dump? – is a political position!).

Anyway, he also says the same quality of new is delivered by 1ZB and, of course, his Radio Live. Excuse me. What crap. For a start, the commercial presenters are encouraged to adopt a stance. In this country, it seems a right wing stance is the flavour of the masses. Fair enough. But public broadcasting is intended to present the news from a neutral viewpoint.

Of course, RNZ does this admirably, and this (to put up my own straw man argument – what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, OK? – is what fucks off the right wing extremists like Laws.

Laws is predictable. When logic doesn’t support his stance, personal invective laden attacks take their place. This is what broadcasting in NZ would become under his model.

And he attacks Concert FM as being elitist. Well, I work in a factory and, currently, when I leave work at 6.00am what are my choices? I can tell you: insomniac talk radio of Laws’ aforementioned bastions of quality radio, rock, Radio Rheema FFS, or Morning Report, with the incisive and so neutral you can’t tell what his political stance is, if he has one, Sean Plunkett.

Guess which I listen to!
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February 21, 2010 9:56pm
MikeNZ

LUC
do you deliberately bullshit last thing at night or do you do it all the time?

Fair enough. But public broadcasting is intended to present the news from a neutral viewpoint.
Of course, RNZ does this admirably

You are a bullshit artist of the highest order here mate.
RNZ neutral, good God. That’s like saying a political party will always write laws for the country’s good.
I know you are not stupid, but devious, that’s a different thing, if you truly believe that.
The only thing that might be neutral about RNZ is Jim Mora’s afternoon show.
Go to bed you naughty boy!
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February 21, 2010 10:33pm
Hurf Durf

RNZ is legal cocaine for Remuera leftists.

But public broadcasting is intended to present the news from a neutral viewpoint. Of course, RNZ does this admirably,

LAWL. RNZ and indeed public broadcasting around the world hasn’t been neutral since 1948. The fact that Puke can’t even detect his own bias shows just how disjointed he is from reality. Then again, we are dealing with a man who looks through the world as though it were a ghetto community mural so why am I not surprised.
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February 21, 2010 10:42pm
Luc Hansen

yep, our guest tonight, discussing this post, said of course RNZ has a leftist bias.

I said you only think that because it is not obviously right wing: ergo, according to her, it must be left wing.

Well, my better half assures me Plunkett especially is very right wing, and she knows everything, so I must defer to her.

Anyway, my main point is that Laws has always been a jerk, cuddling up to jerks, and is getting worse with age, so predictable.

As someone with more talent than me would say, how bizarre.
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February 21, 2010 10:46pm
Luc Hansen

hurf, why 1948?

What’s the connection?

“Ghetto community mural.”

Good line.
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February 21, 2010 10:48pm
Rachael Rich

I thought Philin had a decent phrase with his “Many, not the few”. BUT, it is a rip off from Tony Blair back in 97.

What’s next Phil, how about “Future, not the past” or “Strong leadership, not drift”.

Labour haven’t got one single original idea! No wonder they are languishing in the polls.
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February 21, 2010 10:55pm
Redbaiter

“Anyway, my main point is that Laws has always been a jerk, cuddling up to jerks, and is getting worse with age, so predictable.”

That’s not actually a point of any worth, its just subjective shit from a left wing bigot. Here, it carries no weight whatsoever. I honestly don’t know why you bother.
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February 21, 2010 10:56pm
Luc Hansen

hey Rachael, for Phil, maybe “shoulder to shoulder,” and “staying the course”…

Yes, Labour has not got an original thought, I agree, but neither does Key’s lot, as Rod Oram pointed out so devastatingly in his SST column today.
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February 21, 2010 11:00pm
Luc Hansen

its just subjective shit from a left wing bigot.

I don’t agree with the left wing label but replace left with right and look in the mirror, my friend.
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February 21, 2010 11:03pm
Hurf Durf

Picked randomly for dramatic effect. And thank you.
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February 21, 2010 11:11pm
Rachael Rich

Rod Oram – enough said!!!
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February 21, 2010 11:17pm
Redbaiter

I linked earlier today (above) to Glenn Beck’s speech today at CPAC (probably the premier Conservative action group in the US) but the link was in six parts. The link below is the complete video.

Beck delivers a devastating critique of the Republican Party. Warns them about the Progressives in their ranks and advocates a return to Constitutional principles.

Well I know there is no constitution in NZ (worse luck) but the fact remains that the National Party was originally bound by roughly the same kind of principles that are articulated by the US Constitution. But nowadays they are much more infiltrated by Progressives than even the US Republican party, and are hopelessly lost in terms of political direction.

What a shame that John Key and Jackie Blue and Steven Joyce and Nikki Kaye and Simon Bridges and Nicky Wagner and all the rest of the hopeless liberals couldn’t be locked in a room and made to watch Beck’s speech over and over and over UNTIL THEY DAMN WELL GET IT..!!! Just about everything Beck says can be applied to NZ and the National Party.

http://www.watchglennbeck.com/CPAC2010/
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February 21, 2010 11:22pm
Redbaiter

“I don’t agree with the left wing label but replace left with right and look in the mirror, my friend.”

Are you a complete idiot? I admit to being right wing and have no problem with it. You on the other hand are another duplicitous far left extremist pretending to be a centrist. Just a disgusting coward and liar. Don’t try your cheap artifice on me commie. I’ve been dealing with amoral scum like you for years. I’m not fooled. I know exactly what you are, what you stand for and what you would do if you were not restrained by what remains of the democracy you seek to destroy, and I’m never going to be your friend.
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February 21, 2010 11:28pm
Ryan Sproull

Redbaiter,

Will you be my friend? I’ll shout you the first drink.
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February 21, 2010 11:34pm
pjje

Finally found time to read Dawkins’ “The Greatest Show on Earth”. A good read, really, though a bit polemical on the whole creationist thing. I enjoyed Gould’s essays, and the more popular of his books, and I think Dawkins misses a bit of Gould’s humiligty. But the subject matter is inherently interesting, the writing is very good.

Just thinking about how to introduce my son to the whole evolution concept, though, and it’s not that easy to find somthing right. in the end I think I’ll go with Gould (the one with the essay on the Kiwi’s egg). Just have to sort out the title and order a new copy – loaned the first one out and never got it back. Sign of a good book?

A propos of the discussion a day or so ago re palestine / Israel. In fact some Jewish chappie has demonstrated a remarkable consistency of descent among the Jewish priestly caste (see, eg, http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm, though it’s a bit, well, … positive. Maybe best to check out the original publication in Nature, I suppose, but I’m not really that interested. But it does suggest that those returning may in fact be descendants of those who left.

The interesting thing, in my view, is the idea that we should take any active interest at all, given the consistent history of that general area of the world, the particular circumstances of the Jewish state, and the difficulty of reconciliation.

Apparently the return from the diaaspora is but one more cycle in a history of departures (forced or otherwise) and returns where the returnees were better equipped that those who had stayed, and promptly set about dealing to them. I don’t remember where I first came across this, but those of a Biblical bent will be able to point to consistencies with the biblical tradition (and Boney-M: “Rivers of Babylon”).

One can’t help thinking that the Jewish survivors of the concentration camps were likely to be pretty ruthless in their approach, and well-schooled in some pretty nasty skills (I had the view in general terms for quite a while, but it’s worthwhile to read Fisk on this point). And also likely to be sceptical about exhortations referring to the brotherhood of man. An experience like the holocaust might be quite formative. And I presume it wouldn’t take many missiles over the kibbutz to reinforce the viewpoint. I just don’t think any sensible Israeli is going to be a risk-taker in political dealings with their near neighbours.

And we know from the history of the UK (ie the Irish resistance and the Orangemen in Northern Ireland – how long is that? 400 years or thereabouts) that a grudge like this can continue for quite some time. Especially if there is a way to make money or power out of it.

Perhaps the best lesson to learn from it is that the reconciliation process here will have real value if it can avoid or alleviate or resolve Maori grievances. I used to think that it was really only going to be a matter of a generation or three. Then people of Maori descent would have sufficient numbers to create electoral pressure to improve the lot of Maori (justified or not – just a matter of numbers). I still think that will happen. But I think continuing migration will mean that a significant portion of our population won’t qualify, which will itself be a source of friction. Maybe I should’t worry. But my children, grandhildren, etc will be affected.

So I support the Waitangi settlment process. I just wish there was some way to have confidence in the governance of the institutions that admiunister the settlements in the hands of the iwi. I’ve been impressed by Ngai Tahu, but I’m not sure about what happened in the Waikato – a corporate box for Warriors’ games? And where did all that money go?
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February 21, 2010 11:41pm
Redbaiter

” Will you be my friend? I’ll shout you the first drink. ”

Don’t expect it to lead any further than friendship.
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February 21, 2010 11:49pm
Redbaiter

” Rod Oram – enough said!!! ”

So right. Another damn lefty posing as a journalist.
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February 21, 2010 11:51pm
Ryan Sproull

Don’t expect it to lead any further than friendship.

I have to admit, I was kind of hoping we’d end up as a masked crime-fighting duo.
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February 22, 2010 12:04am
Luc Hansen

What sort of a handle is pjje for gods sake!

Anyway, your link as to genetics (Cohen: ha ha so neutral) can be countered with Qumsiyeh, not neutral, as he is a Palestinian, but he is also a US qualified geneticist. So take your choice as to credibility. By the way, Qumsiyeh lives with belligerent occupation, in Bethlehem, which is being taken over more and more, as we speak, by the so called settlers, supported all the way by the totally amoral conscripts of the IDF (actually the IOF)

I suggest you widen your reading beyond the Bible.
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February 22, 2010 12:07am
Luc Hansen

oops, forgot the link. here you go…

http://www.qumsiyeh.org
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February 22, 2010 12:10am
Luc Hansen

And a message for redbaiter, look me up next time you are in Auckland and we will see who the coward is, OK?
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February 22, 2010 12:12am
Redbaiter

Give me one good reason why I’d need to waste my time and “look up” some fuckwit leftist from the internet.
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February 22, 2010 12:17am
Redbaiter

“I have to admit, I was kind of hoping we’d end up as a masked crime-fighting duo.”

I have never believed those rumours about Batman and Robin.
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February 22, 2010 12:19am
Luc Hansen

Redbaiter

I blog under my real name.

I’m a real person. And I am fit and strong.

I don’t like being called a coward by anonymous posers.

Think about it.
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February 22, 2010 12:29am
Redbaiter

” Think about it. ”

Get a life you blustering threatening commie yellow back. What you don’t like matters to me not one jot. You think I like the deceit you employ when you post your never ending extreme left propaganda here at the same time as you profess to be a centrist? You’re a communist. Why don’t you grow some balls, drop the deceit and admit it?
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February 22, 2010 12:55am
Hurf Durf

Luc Hansen, revealed!
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February 22, 2010 1:08am
martin english

A clever new US Political AD – A bit more sophisticated than ‘demon sheep” !!
http://www.youtube.com/v/DZ_klXDGeQk
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February 22, 2010 1:56am
Pete George

Beck starts by saying he is a big fan of Rush Limbaugh. And then launches into the usual “us good, Progressives bad” spiel. And then trying to link the old Communist enemy stuff with Progressive enemy.

And yes, he targets the Repubs – the so called Conservatives want to take over the GOP first, then take over the country?

CPAC straw poll results:
32% – Ron Paul
22% – Mitt Romney
7% – Sarah Palin
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February 22, 2010 6:54am
kaya

Pete George – I don’t follow US politics in depth (the bunch of clowns here give me enough grief without looking at more) but Ron Paul is one politician who has said much that I like. He is the one who is pushing to audit the Federal Reserve and has seen it for what it is, a privately owned rort.
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February 22, 2010 10:01am
Hurf Durf

Delirium is a obsessive bedwetter, kaya. Ignore him.
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February 22, 2010 5:59pm

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