General Debate 8 January 2009

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Pita

“The First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics must be repealed for the survival of humanity.”

Something for John Key to consider.
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January 8, 2010 6:34am
Komata

It must be the NZ Summer School holidays – Minto and his muppet’s are out on the streets again (anyone seen Keith Locke recently – or Bradford?). I see now that the ‘Great Crusader of Righteous Causes’ is going to be turning his ‘Global Peace and Justice’ (love the title – and the inherent irony) sheeples onto Hilary Clinton and Co. when she arrives here (next week?) – somehow I doubt that it will be ‘global’, or ‘peaceful, or about ‘justice’ – just more rabbid anti-Americanism (same old, same old), with the usual strident, easily-impressed female hangers-on in attendance (ooooh, it’s soooooooooo cool to protest – even when I don’t know what I’m ptotesting about). (BTW – are female protestors sanguines?)

But can someone tell me please – now that Communism has been disproved and the glories of the ‘Worker’s paradise’ revealed, what are Minto’s politics based on – and who pays him? Is he just habitually Anti-American or is it the ‘smell of the tear-gass, the roar of the crowd’?

(Reminds me of the Willie Nelson song ‘He’s and old hippy . .’ – suitably modified of course).
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January 8, 2010 6:57am
Pete George

GOP chairman Michael Steele, in an interview with Fox News Channel talk show host Sean Hannity, said his party was unlikely to retake the House in 2010 and lacked the support of the American people. Asked by Hannity if Republicans would retake the House of Representatives in 2010, Steele replied, “Not this year.”

Steele also told Hannity he was uncertain about whether the GOP was even ready to resume leadership of a congressional chamber, thanks to the beliefs of some of the current crop of contenders.
“I don’t know. And that’s what I’m assessing and evaluating right now. Those candidates who are looking to run have to be anchored in these principles,” he said of the conservative values he laid out in his book.

Hannity doesn’t mention any of this on his summary of the show: http://www.hannity.com/show/2010/01/04

Steele reemphasized his pessimistic take on the GOP’s future during a Tuesday morning “Today” show appearance on NBC.

This led to a public rebuke from the National Republican Congressional Committee. He backpedaled Tuesday night in an interview with MSNBC’s Chris Matthews. “I agree with those in the party who believe that we have real shots this November, and I’m playing to win as well,” Steele said.
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January 8, 2010 7:39am
Swiftman the infidel

san⋅guine

–adjective
1. cheerfully optimistic, hopeful, or confident: a sanguine disposition; sanguine expectations.
2. reddish; ruddy: a sanguine complexion.
3. (in old physiology) having blood as the predominating humor and consequently being ruddy-faced, cheerful, etc.
4. bloody; sanguinary.
5. blood-red; red.
6. Heraldry. a reddish-purple tincture.
–noun
7. a red iron-oxide crayon used in making drawings.
Origin:
1275–1325; ME sanguyne a blood-red cloth < OF sanguin < L sanguineus bloody, equiv. to sanguin-, s. of sanguis blood + -eus -eous
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January 8, 2010 7:41am
Brian Smaller

The life of country gent with a satellite broadband connection. Not quite 0800 and I have deployed code to four databases i look after for our client, sorted my emails and work plan for the day, had breakfast and moved a mob of sheep from one paddock to another.
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January 8, 2010 7:58am
Reg

Is it just me, or have governments all aound the world (especially in the Norther Hemmishere) suddenly gone quiet about combatting the imminent catastrophe to be Caused by Anthropogenic Global Warming?
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January 8, 2010 8:00am
Swiftman the infidel

http://www.thestandard.org.nz/five-more-unlawful-arrests-of-protesters-today/#comments

A good insight into the fucked-up thinking and self importance of the ‘left’.
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January 8, 2010 8:06am
dad4justice

Europe is experiencing a 2010 Ice Age season, ask Gordie Wankbrain Brown, meanwhile on the other side of the globe, Al Gore is frozen and stuck in Hillary Canyon and Bill is not having sex with that chicken.
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January 8, 2010 8:09am
calendar girl

Great to see the pleasure you’re getting from your life-changing decision, Brian. How big is the “mob of sheep”, or are you like the rest of us new country dwellers – inclined to magnify the “farm” in our own eyes? (We have only 15 sheep – and a sheep dog to round them up!)

Keep us informed as things develop, and don’t hesitate to throw up queries for the Kiwiblog “mob” to attempt to answer when you’re stuck or puzzled. We would be lost without our own circle of helpers in the country!
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January 8, 2010 8:10am
Brian Smaller

CG – about forty. Except that they are not mine. Belong to the neighbours. I have not got any yet so they are keepign my grass down for me. I have a huge set of covered yards on my property that various locals use for a small consideration. The usual currency for that is whiskey and crates of wine. Our brand new neighbours have gone away for two weeks and I think are ‘testing’ us by leaving us in charge of their livestock and property. Best decision I ever made, but to be honest, without the ability to work from home it would not have been a starter.
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January 8, 2010 8:18am
Reg

Careful Brian, The IRD might want a percentage of that grog!
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January 8, 2010 8:21am
Murray

I see the stuff poll on Mintos mental protest was a hiding to nothing. Not really seeing those “thousands” of people that john boy was claiming to speak for.

Hes not the first person to find out that kiwis don’t like having other people talk for them, you think people would learn.
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January 8, 2010 8:36am
Thrash Cardiom

A good insight into the fucked-up thinking and self importance of the ‘left’.

Fucked up thinking or legitimate concerns about the role of the police in preventing legal protests:

Excerpt from Rees vs. Police judgement:

It is not correct to say that in exercising the right to protest, a citizen has the duty not to annoy. It is permissible, within limits, for a citizen to annoy others while protesting. It is not enough that the conduct is irritating or ill mannered or in bad taste. Protestors often set out to cause irritation, to attract attention to their message. That is not in itself illegitimate, or a breach of the criminal law. There is a line beyond which protestors cannot cross without offending the criminal law, and that line involves annoyance beyond that which is normal and acceptable to New Zealanders. Loud protests through a megaphone are not uncommon in New Zealand streets. It is a method of protest that is often used. It is not a breach of our criminal law in itself to use such a method of protest. It is not a breach of our criminal law to annoy others while doing so.

Source No Right Turn: http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2010/01/absolutely-outrageous.html
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January 8, 2010 8:37am
Reg

The Stuff Poll Murray referred to:
Even better than John Keys Ratings

Do you support protests against Israeli tennis player Shahar Peer’s participation at the ASB classic?
Yes
748 votes, 13.0%
No
5025 votes, 87.0%
Total 5773 votes
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January 8, 2010 8:44am
Murray

Way to focus Reg. ADD or what?

Key has what to do with this?
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January 8, 2010 8:57am
MikeNZ

REES VS Police Judge needs sacking.

It is not normal for loudhailers, if it were we would all carry them and use them.
shows lofty judiciary who need taking down a peg.
I don’t hear loudhailers going off whilst i am about my normal life.

Voices yes.
Crown needs to challenge this and sack the plonker and any other of his ilk!
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January 8, 2010 9:00am
Thrash Cardiom

Crown needs to challenge this and sack the plonker and any other of his ilk!

Get the law changed by all means but until it is changed, this is the law. The police do not have the right to override it as they wish. That is the sort of thing that happens in police states.
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January 8, 2010 9:12am
Reg

Way to focus Reg. ADD or what?

No Murray, just going cross-eyed, so many of the left’s strawmen are falling all at once. I feel like a little boy in a lolly shop!
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January 8, 2010 9:12am
Swiftman the infidel

John Minto is a weal and pathetic bully who thinks he is a big man because he picks on a young woman.

John Minto 0 Shahar Peer 1

Good job!
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January 8, 2010 9:19am
Bok2

Oh Joy, Oh Joy!
The infectious madness reigns supreme! I nearly wet myself laughing at this article, even though I constantly looked around to see if there were any creepies around. You know that feeling of something climbing up your leg under the desk.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/scurry-monsters-city-in-grip-of-funnelwebs-20100107-lwuh.html

Anyway! I love the reason for the influx of poisonous little critters.

“AN INFESTATION of funnel-web spiders has taken hold of Sydney over the summer holidays and spider experts are warning that climate change and a spate of wet weather are to blame.”

Oh very trendy and scientific! Especially when you read the next bit.

“I think climate change might have something to do with it. This season there’s more moisture and coolness and the spiders have been able to breed up,” he said.

So now AGW is coolness and moisture. Well maybe we can turn the Blue Mountains into a ski resort and irrigate the Nallabor by just putting a bit more CO2 into the air.

I love Global warmers! They provide hours of mirth.
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January 8, 2010 9:21am
CharlieBrown

Seems the gov’t is backing away from compulsory 3rd party car insurance due to the fact that most of us already a re insured:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10619032

Although I’m unsure about compulsion, I think that it would be more favourable not to introduce it if more people were uninsured as it would effect more people negatively. Typical gutless nats. The remaining people who are uninsured are likely to be the people that need it most, and forcing them to pay for risk based insurance is bound to make it more difficult for bad drivers to get cars.

Once again, the nats show how useless they are.
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January 8, 2010 9:23am
Reg

Beautiful Bok2
And a futher heatwave hits the UK.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240629/At-mercy-deep-freeze-Schools-shut-firms-hit–6-inches-snow.html
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January 8, 2010 9:33am
s.russell

I have seen many protest marches, and been on a few. I will staunchly defend people’s right to protest in this way, just as I staunchly defend free speech.

I have to agree with the judge. Using a loud hailer is not cause in itself to arrest someone. I agree that it should be “permissible, within limits, for a citizen to annoy others while protesting.”

The key point is “within limits”. I think Mr Minto and his friends have exceeded these. Even though I disagree with his protest, I support his right to loudly make his point. And then, point made, he should move on and let people get on with their lives, and tennis games, in peace.

Critics of Mr Minto should remember that not all protests are ones he would approve of – some have quite opposite political motivation. Remember for example, protests against the anti-smacking law and protests against the Electoral Finance Act.
I would prefer that everyone (no matter how wrong) retains the right to loudly protest (within limits) rather than no one to have it.
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January 8, 2010 10:13am
Southern Raider

Any body find it strange that we have just come out of the “hottest decade in history” and yet less than one week later the whole of Europe seems to be having a nuclear winter with no sign of the snow stopping?
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January 8, 2010 10:19am
KiwiGreg

“what are Minto’s politics based on – and who pays him?”

I believe we [still] do. Last time I head he was deputy principle at Western Springs College but I am probably out of date.
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January 8, 2010 10:21am
KiwiGreg

“Any body find it strange that we have just come out of the “hottest decade in history” and yet less than one week later the whole of Europe seems to be having a nuclear winter with no sign of the snow stopping?”

I’ve seen two pieces of rhetoric that made me laugh. One was a newspaper report on this which stated (as news, fact) that “global warming causes more energy to be released into the atmosphere resulting in more extreme weather events such as the European snow storms. The other was from our own global warming fanbois, NIWA, noting that the colder than normal tempertures in NZ at the moment are just part of ordinary cyclical variations (as opposed I guess to the clear evidence of a warming trend if they had been warmer).
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January 8, 2010 10:24am
Reg

Oh know India as well!
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?672201
It looks like SUVs and Coalfired power stations may be the only way to save the planet from the coming Ice Age!!
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January 8, 2010 10:34am
Brian Smaller

I have seen many protest marches, and been on a few. I will staunchly defend people’s right to protest in this way, just as I staunchly defend free speech.

As have I over the years. However, my tolerance for protests stops when the protestors are merely indulging in self-mastabatory fantasies that they are achieving something. All they are doing is bullying a young woman going about her private business – in this case playing tennis on an international circuit. Perhaps if she was representing her country they might have a small point.
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January 8, 2010 10:35am
Murray

Swiftman I’d pay to see Minto go toe to toe with her.

She’d kick his ass without working up a sweat. Now there’s some pay for view.
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January 8, 2010 10:41am
Southern Raider

KiwiGreg I know Invercargill is hoping for global warming after the last few weeks of “summer”
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January 8, 2010 10:47am
Elijah Lineberry

Last night was ‘Blogger Drinkies’ in Auckland and was well attended by the ‘Bloggerati’ (those of us comprising the cream of the blogging World)

It was nice to see Chuck, a kiwiblog regular, once again and the ‘usual suspects’.

Hope more of you chaps head along next month.

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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January 8, 2010 10:48am
Pete George

It’s not just one tennis player he was shitting on. It may have been more distracting for the opponents. And spectators – I would have been bloody annoyed if I payed to go and watch the tennis and it was continually disrupted by Minto’s unholy racket.
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January 8, 2010 10:49am
Murray

‘Bloggerati’????

Good lord time of death for blogging……………………………

Pete Minto’s existance is annoying enough to most and the stench of his mates could put a sewer worker off his fish and chips. Soap people, give it a go.
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January 8, 2010 11:00am
Pete George

I wish you had put a comma between the names there Murray, at a glance that made me shudder.
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January 8, 2010 11:05am
MikeNZ

srussel 10.13am
I would prefer that everyone (no matter how wrong) retains the right to loudly protest (within limits) rather than no one to have it.

Shouting certainly when talking to a crowd but not to destroy peoples enjoyment of an event they have paid money to go to and certainly not assisted by loudhailers.

remember quiet enjoyment????, those other people have rights too?????
They trump Mintos rights to destroy their quiet enjoyment.
sorry can’t agree with you there.
by all means speak to people and have placards but not whistles, drums and loudhailers.
they are designed to interfere with peoples quiet enjoyment.
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January 8, 2010 11:21am
MikeNZ

Now heres a group I would protest about when their leader comes.
Wonder if Key would organise a big bus like shipley did?

http://www.jamestown.org/programs/chinabrief/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=35880&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=25&cHash=e160070e18
http://www.jamestown.org/programs/chinabrief/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=35879&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=25&cHash=c74df55997
http://www.jamestown.org/programs/chinabrief/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=35883&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=25&cHash=a4ef69aa91
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January 8, 2010 11:23am
side show bob

Elijah “those of us comprising the CREAM of the blogging world”, good to hear you suffer no inferiority complexes Elijah
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January 8, 2010 11:24am
Inventory2

Elijah saod “Last night was ‘Blogger Drinkies’ in Auckland and was well attended by the ‘Bloggerati’ (those of us comprising the cream of the blogging World)”

Cream of the blogging world eh Elijah – or are you a legend in your own lunchtime 😉

BTW – did you realise that there is a link to your blog on your ID, and you don’t have to post a link to your blog EVERY time you post …
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January 8, 2010 11:26am
Repton

Seems the gov’t is backing away from compulsory 3rd party car insurance due to the fact that most of us already a re insured:

Is it the government’s place to tell us how to spend our money?
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January 8, 2010 11:28am
MikeNZ

yes he does 🙂
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January 8, 2010 11:33am
Pete George

3rd party car insurance is compulsory now, common sense wise. Trying to make those who should have it to get it may be more trouble than it’s worth.

Maybe those who don’t have it should have to display something prominent so the rest of us know who to avoid.
Not seriously. Mike’s idea below sounds better.
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January 8, 2010 11:36am
Murray

I see it now, sorry about that Pete. Have this one ,
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January 8, 2010 11:36am
MikeNZ

repton
I’d like to see car lis linked to up to date 3rd party ins (annual) linked to up to date driving lis.

that way the hoops all connect.
then they can’t lis car unless got 3rd pty and can’t get 3rd prty unless got valid drving lis.
make it serious pain if drive without drving lis, 3rd pty ins.
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January 8, 2010 11:36am
Southern Raider

Repton it shouldn’t cost you more more if you already have insurance.

National seem to be a complete bunch of morons some times. A survey (how accurate is that) said about 7 to 8% of cars don’t have any form of insurance. They seem to think thats such a small number so there is maybe no need for compulsary insurance.

What crap. That still gives an almost 1 in 10 chance that some idiot will run into you and not pay up. Probably the odds are actually higher as the people who don’t have insurance are more likely to be worse drivers and have unsafer cars.

Pisses me off that the Govt puts the inconvinence back on the motorist to sort this out. Its not that hard to do. Just add a fixed fee to the registration and then your premiums for full insurance should come down by the same amount.
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January 8, 2010 11:37am
CharlieBrown

Repton – Is it the government’s place to tell us how to spend our money?

No it isn’t. I am however worried behind the mindset of National thinking it would be preferrable to force a largely sensible large percentage of uninsured drivers to get insurance compared to forcing a small, unsensible percentage to get insured. IE, National thinks its ok to force large numbers of people and cause a huge disruption but not ok to force small numbers and cause a minor disruption.

The National party is plain stupid.
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January 8, 2010 11:41am
frankflintstone

I believe we [still] do. Last time I head he was deputy principle at Western Springs College but I am probably out of date.

Tangaroa College according to my search
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January 8, 2010 12:03pm
Luc Hansen

To those who conflate a weather event – a cold snap in Britain – with repudiation of global warming: you really need to get your heads around this important concept. Climate study is based on a minimum of 30 years of weather trends. Global warming does not exclude normal weather events, in this case evidently derived from conditions in the Arctic. All this is explained
here.

Part of the cocoon we inhabit in our little corner of the world is that we have been little affected so far, but that is not the case in the Northern Hemisphere, where threats of diseases from ticks and mites are increasing rapidly, dykes are being raised, and grape vines are being ripped up in favour of olive trees, as this article in Der Spiegal explains.

I saw James Hansen on Letterman (the show JK treasures as providing his best moment?) and he was challenged about why governments are so accepting of AGW when so many of their people still don’t accept the reality of the science. Hansen said the simple answer is that each country’s scientists are simply telling their leaders the facts. The politicians don’t like the facts – who does? – but recognise their duty to act.

Trouble is, democracies have to take their people with them and there is widespread failure in this aspect outside of Europe.

I am now convinced that the scientists have been far too conservative, partly out of not wanting to “scare the horses” and partly out of lack of precise data, but it does increasingly appear that dangerous warming is coming faster than predicted. One of the problems we will face within a couple of decades is climate refugees arriving down under for a new life. I wonder how we will react?

On the good news front, after battling the Egyptian police and border guards, George Galloway’s Free Gaza convey made it into Gaza at last. Not many people realise how despotic the Egyptian dictatorship really is and how much support it gets from the US and Israel – all in the name of preventing free elections which would undoubtedly install the wrong government. A good backgrounder here

Just how does “freedom,” our freedom, entail denying the same freedom to other nations’ peoples?

And all the abuse meted out here to John Minto ignores the fact that his cause is just, his bravery is unquestioned (I remember well the bashing he took after the 1981 Waikato non-game) and he was on the right side, as we must surely all acknowledge on the apartheid issue. The Israel/Palestine dispute is an extension of the same ideological conflict of basic human rights.

The bleating about the Israeli girl ignores countless examples of much, much worse treatment visited upon innocent young Palestinians by her government. For example, dozens of young children in Israeli jails, I think the youngest is 9, and hundreds of Palestinian students who have won scholarships to overseas universities but denied permission by the occupying power, Israel, to leave the territories.

I don’t associate with Minto because I don’t like his socialism and I carry out my own form of protests in ways that suit me, but I admire his dedication and commitment.
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January 8, 2010 12:20pm
Matt Long

Luc if you want Minto as a hero suggest he act as a human shield in Gaza during the next police action there, not harass a young women like some kind of aging pervert.
perhaps for the sake of fairness Mr Minto would also act as a human sheild against bombers in Israel too. Best of luck.
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January 8, 2010 12:36pm
Swiftman the infidel

Climate = ∑ Weather
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January 8, 2010 12:38pm
CharlieBrown

“Luc if you want Minto as a hero suggest he act as a human shield in Gaza ” – I suggest he should stand in front of the hamas soldier firing the rocket at civilian targets in Israel.
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January 8, 2010 12:40pm
Murray

Anti-Semitism is still just ugly bigotry even you call it anti-zionism and sip chardonnay while you do it.
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January 8, 2010 12:54pm
Murray

Looks like the AGW hystria collective believe 10 years isn;t a treand, 30 years is but 1,500 isn’t.

Actual science doesn’t allow selective sampling of data Luc. Religion does, but not science.
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January 8, 2010 12:56pm
Reg

Luc said…Climate study is based on a minimum of 30 years of weather trends.

Then why is it every time we have a, hot spell, or a bush fire, or a week with out rain, or a week with rain, or more funnel web spiders in Sydney,or dykes are being raised, or a heat wave in Florida, or snow in Florida, or the annual ice melt in the Arctic, or glaciers calving in the Antarctic its all indisputable evidence of AGW.

And by the way exactly how much has the world warmed in the last 30 years?
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January 8, 2010 12:57pm
CharlieBrown

“And all the abuse meted out here to John Minto ignores the fact that his cause is just, his bravery is unquestioned (I remember well the bashing he took after the 1981 Waikato non-game) and he was on the right side, as we must surely all acknowledge on the apartheid issue. The Israel/Palestine dispute is an extension of the same ideological conflict of basic human rights.”

His cause is unjust, his bravery is missdirected. He chose to violate fundamental rights in 1981 (intruding on private organisations/peoples freedom of movement), even if what he was protesting against was repugnant. The Israel/Palestine dispute is historical now. To intrude on an established nation with generations of citizens is wrong. A solution needs to be found, a two state solution where the Palestinian people accept Isreal and can stop the firing of rockets.

His lack of protest against France and russia who have annexed other countries territories within the last century proves that his cause is selective and wrong.
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January 8, 2010 12:57pm
Inventory2

Luc Hansen said “To those who conflate a weather event – a cold snap in Britain – with repudiation of global warming: you really need to get your heads around this important concept. Climate study is based on a minimum of 30 years of weather trends. Global warming does not exclude normal weather events, in this case evidently derived from conditions in the Arctic. All this is explained here.”

Sorry Luc – you lost me after “to those who conflate…..”
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January 8, 2010 12:57pm
Reg

Conflate: From the word Con lit. To decieve or conceal and flate- lessen as in deFlate
ie:”To hide the decline”
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January 8, 2010 1:03pm
Bok2

Luc
You are totally missing the point. Using their advanced climate information the renowned British met office has predicted uncommonly warm winters for the last 4 years. Every year they have been getting it more and more wrong.

Your total lack of logic wants us to accept 30 years as a trend, yet the last 2000 years was not a trend? There comes a time when beliefs turn into religion, and a time when adherence to dogma turns into intellectual dishonesty. You are past that point.
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January 8, 2010 1:17pm
Southern Raider

Luc please explain when the Palestinians established the cities of Hebron, Jericho etc?
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January 8, 2010 1:21pm
Southern Raider

Bok2 he also wants us to apply anything older than 30 years ago in regards to Israel as irrelevant as well.
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January 8, 2010 1:22pm
MyNameIsJack

CharlieBrown (190) Says:

January 8th, 2010 at 12:57 pm

His lack of protest against France and russia who have annexed other countries territories within the last century proves that his cause is selective and wrong.

And your precise actions were…?
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January 8, 2010 1:37pm
Southern Raider

Luc admires George Galloway. Need we say more?
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January 8, 2010 1:42pm
CharlieBrown

MNIJ “And your precise actions were…?”… I’m unsure what you are asking/stating?
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January 8, 2010 1:55pm
Reg

Don’t worry about Europe though Luc. Its all come right now
Look at this (Sorry it’s not from the Guardian) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/6937854/Britain-braced-for-heaviest-snowfall-in-50-years.html
There’s no way the Ticks and Mites will survive this winter.
The Canals aren’t rising any more -They’re frozen solid
and the Olive trees will be dead and they’ll be whipping out the grapes and planting apricots.
And if this trend continues in 30 years we’ll totally glacierated
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January 8, 2010 1:58pm
RightNow

What a delightful new year. Apparently the last decade was the ‘warmest on record’ by 0.03 deg celcius. So by 2100 we could expect warming of 0.3 deg C from 2000. The next decade will unfortunately be colder than the last by a lot more than 0.03 deg since we’ve entered another cooling phase, it’s a shame as I was so looking forward to warmer weather (Wellington must have missed the memo that we were meant to be warming).
I laugh at the alarmist jihadists too, since they seem quite content to say ‘but the observations match our models if you allow for this big margin of error’. Well, when you’re drowning I suppose grasping at straws is all you can do. It’s hard to perpetrate a con based on deception when we have such open access to the facts. There is no catastrophe according to the planet.
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January 8, 2010 2:02pm
Reg

Thanks Luc, you really gave us something to talk about.
He said:Trouble is, democracies have to take their people with them and there is widespread failure in this aspect outside of Europe.

Isn’t it a nuisance … “you can’t fool all the people all the time”.
I mean you can massage data, you can cherry pick temp readings, you can ply your tame reporters with catastrophic senarios, BUT you can’t stop the weather getting colder.
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January 8, 2010 2:16pm
side show bob

Luc, as your beloved, on more then several occasions quipped, “it’s time to move on”. I very rarely agreed with the old cow but in the this situation it’s probably the best of advice.
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January 8, 2010 3:15pm
side show bob

Shit they are all turning on Mac Daddy and his cabal of crooks even CNN is putting the boot in with Jack Cafferty saying old Mac Daddy is full of crap, unbelievable. Stupid bloody socialists, in the shit but still they keep digging.
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January 8, 2010 4:09pm
starboard

or dykes are being raised,

…wots clark got to do with it…
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January 8, 2010 4:26pm
Elijah Lineberry

After a decade of the Labour party and its PC agenda many people confuse ‘tolerance’ with ‘acceptance’.

Tolerance by definition means you disapprove of something but shrug your shoulders and think everybody should be free do live their life as they see fit – ‘live and let live’, so to speak.

Tolerance does not mean you must have a huge wankfest and try to convince yourself you approve of something when deep down you most certainly do not.

There is nothing wrong with expressing your disapproval; nothing wrong with saying “ugh! I hate that sort of thing and those sort of people” so long as you live and let live (ie – you tolerate), and do not try and impose your views onto them (which is ‘intolerant’ and anti-freedom).

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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January 8, 2010 4:39pm
Steve

Shahar Peer has been dismissed, happy now Minto?
I hear tomorrow there is a march up Queen St by the same tossers, wonder if there will be a march down Queen St?
Might have a look at this. Usual time, that gives the TV crew time to set up cameras
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January 8, 2010 4:52pm
TimG_Oz

Luc said “I don’t associate with Minto because I don’t like his socialism”

Serious!!! So what’s different about the socialism that you do like? It seems so similar!
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January 8, 2010 4:55pm
Owen McShane

Apparently the last decade was the ‘warmest on record’ by 0.03 deg celcius.
And so says NIWA.
Just ponder that statement for a moment.

Warmer by 3/100ths of a degree.

What thermometers can measure any environment to this level of accuracy?

How can one possibly measure the temperature of a whole country to this level of accuracy?

Any genuine scientist (as opposed to a propagandist) would look at the figures and say there has been no discernible change in temperature.

Even in a single location the error term for temperature measurement is around plus or minus 1 degree, and that must be a reasonably small location.

These people are not scientists. They are just enjoying a life on public welfare and boosting their welfare cheques by making false claims.
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January 8, 2010 5:12pm
jaba

ooops, just upset “Murray” on the Dominions wesite on the piece on poor old Philins trip around NZ tring to reconnect with us .. phew. gee the left are bitter and twisted people.
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January 8, 2010 5:40pm
reid

Yes unfortunately Luc your climate-change-comrades have shot themselves in the foot and the “masses” are in danger of waking the fuck up from their celebrity-induced-news-crisis-coma.

As Owen points out we faced the AGW tactics head-on recently here in NZ, when firstly it was “the warmest decade ever because of AGW” then became the next day, er… + .003 which wasn’t even outside the margin of error.

I suspect the media published the latter FACT the day following the HYSTERIA merely because they didn’t want to be sued heavily for inducing suicide amongst those poor fellows who used to hold up signs saying the world is about to end.

Tell me, do you AGW proponents feel ashamed of yourselves for taking advantage of the mentally feeble, or are you merely evil?
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January 8, 2010 10:42pm
Luc Hansen

Thank you Reid, for leading me into a point I have been wanting to make for a while.

You refer to “AGW proponents”. Others refer to” AGW advocates” or, popularly, “warmists.”

As though all the governments and virtually all the reputable climate scientists in the world actually WANT the planet to get warmer.

And you apply the same to even non-scientists like myself who accept the theory behind the fact of global warming.

I have children and grandchildren. The absolute worst future for them, war excepted, is one that is the result of rampant warming. If the planet was warming through natural processes, we would be concentrating entirely on adaptation. But our best scientists have deduced that the warming is caused by fossil fuel emissions and as such it is within human power to at least arrest, preferably reduce, future human induced warming.

It’s our responsibility to future generations.

You quote Owen McShane. That man is sick. He tells absolute lies and you ignorant suckers are too stupid to do a little digging and find out he is peddling snake oil. As NIWA say on their website, he and his coalition simply refuse to acknowledge scientific rigor in practice. When confronted with the truth, McShane just continues to lie. And he is not a scientist, especially not a climate scientist, he is an engineer. It’s like a car mechanic telling his heart surgeon he has got it all wrong just as he is about to be sliced open!

I am still bemused at why you deniers insist on continuing in this vein. It’s simply immoral and indicates a total disregard for the welfare of future generations that is an even greater evil, on a far, far greater scale, than the Holocaust.

What most of you should be advocating is this: just in case the scientists are right, put in place a carbon tax regime which will provide incentive to suppliers of alternative energy sources with ALL the tax taken returned to all taxpayers, equally. So those with a low carbon footprint will actually make a profit. It’s simple, it’s easy to administer AND it puts the power in the hands of the people.

ETS schemes where corporates can fudge and duck, and carbon taxes where the government decides where the money will go do not address the basic problem in the way the carbon tax and refund plan does.
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January 8, 2010 11:37pm
Luc Hansen

Reg and Inventory 2 who don’t understand my use of the word conflate, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflation
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January 8, 2010 11:42pm
Luc Hansen

Murray, get your head out of Israel’s propaganda songbook. No country is immune to criticism, and such criticism need and should not involve discrimination or religious hatred of any kind.

Since I criticise all Arab and Middle Eastern nations for their lack of real democracy, amongst other sins, I suppose I am an anti-Arab racist and an Islamophobe.

Try and stick to facts. And regarding climate change, listen to genuine scientists who tell you those facts, like Salinger.
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January 9, 2010 12:04am
side show bob

“It’s easy to administer AND it puts the power in the hands of the people”, you really should go easy on those mind altering drugs. For fucks sake Luc you are joking aren’t you? . Power in the hands of the people, yeah right, are you so naive that you believe government will hand back monies taken in carbon taxes???????????. You’ve been had Luc and just can’t except it, I do hope you didn’t invest in any of the worthless carbon credits. I note trade me now has no carbon credit snake oil salesman trying to flog off their bullshit bits of papers. Perhaps the message is finally sinking in, the jig is up. ETs or carbon taxes it’s all the same, bullshit dressed up as caviar.
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January 9, 2010 7:29am
Luc Hansen

Jesus wept, SSB, I had no idea you were so challenged by simple comprehension. I specifically condemned any carbon credit scheme. If you don’t trust governments, that is your ideological stance, and one certainly with strong justification, but it is an entirely separate issue. A carbon tax and refund scheme wouldn’t even need to be government run. It could easily be set up as an independent organisation, say in partnership with the IRD, and specifically tasked to administer such a scheme. Just like an SOE, for example.

You know, you can’t do nothing about everything just because you don’t trust governments.

As the saying goes, democracy may not be perfect, may in fact be deeply flawed, but it’s the best we have been able to come up with so far. Just as regulated capitalism is the best, albeit imperfect, financial model we have devised.

SSB, you and your mates have your heads in sand, like ostriches, all a quiver, trying to hide from the big scary world. Well, I’m afraid it’s coming to get you, anyway. It’s time to get some backbone.

I’m moving on from debating you deniers, who are prepared to condemn future generations to a shrinking land mass, shrinking food sources and a fast disappearing population. It’s time to study and write on the now unavoidable future of a 4-8 degree temperature rise and how the human race can survive it. And how we can help other species to survive it.
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January 9, 2010 9:37am
big bruv

“I’m moving on from debating you deniers”

Ahh yes!, another climate change (wealth redistribution) fan who is dumbstruck by the growing mountain of evidence against the climate change con.
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January 9, 2010 9:51am
MikeNZ

Good morning everyone
And just for you LUC
I know you like facts and historical facts at that, so here’s some on your favourite country.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1262339428603&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1141079.html

And one of the reasons we should support them as the only democracy in the region with our values.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2010/01/07/Iran-Syria-to-redefine-region/UPI-71811262889600/

and another why the UN is full of crap as they have allowed this until the spanish got there or the israelis told them where to look.
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hezbollah_e016.htm

and another why the two state idea is bullshit and always was.
http://www.hudsonny.org/2010/01/can-hamas-be-stopped-from-seizing-west-bank.php

and France is getting serious about public order maybe?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-moves-to-outlaw-the-burka-and-niqab-citing-galit-1861411.html

Egypt might to on their borders after this
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-gaza7-2010jan07,0,6636501.story
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2010/980/op1.htm

Finally, I wonder how many world class people have this much courage?
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/25549/pianist-kissin-protests-against-bbc-anti-israel-bias
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January 9, 2010 10:07am
reid

Luc, I actually have an open mind about whether GW is AGW or merely cyclical. However like many NZers I also have a suspicious mind and when something looks like a duck and it quacks, I usually conclude it is a duck. That’s why I think the 911 official story is bollocks and that Israel’s actions against the Palestinians are not defensive but aggressive: i.e. both are self-evident.

If AGW was merely a sophisticated propaganda ploy designed to impose extensive wealth-transfer with the UN at the centre of it, then it would look exactly like what we see.

Now many people are confused about how these things work because they hallucinate that everyone on the side that wants to impose the ploy must be in on it. That’s wrong, all they need to do is to make up a plausible story and then you get millions of innocents who play along in all belief that they really think they’re doing the right thing. It’s using the old truism: the bigger the lie, the more it will be believed.

You also have another truism in play here: there is nothing so vigorously defended as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction. Who do you think funds the scientists and what do they have to say in order to get funding? Obviously they’re not consciously lying for the sake of getting funds, they truly believe it, which brings out the subtle truth within that truism, that you often see it operating on an unconscious level from within the proponent – that’s why it’s disguised.

As to what we should be doing, on a previous thread I suggested we should be taking full advantage of this by orienting our entire economy including universities and manufacturing toward AGW science and technology and we should use the Celtic Tiger model to do that.

One thing that hasn’t yet been suggested by the AGW proponents is a world-wide Tobin tax. Currency trading involves daily volumes exceeding a trillion dollars. A world-wide Tobin tax on that would yield hundreds of billions per year and as a side benefit to ourselves, would quell the speculators who so damage our exporters by playing the Kiwi as a killer whale plays with a seal. Of course you’d have to get the world’s most powerful money-men to agree and since they fund the politicians on both sides, it would be a titanic struggle of the people vs the power brokers. But a Tobin tax is the obvious answer. So I’m looking forward to seeing that suggestion play itself out on the world stage. The result would prove to be an interesting pointer as to whether we really do live in a world-wide democracy or whether it’s all just an illusion.
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January 9, 2010 10:08am
side show bob

“A carbon tax and refund scheme wouldn’t even need to be government run” , ha ha ha, jolly joker. Bloody hell Luc how old are you?. So who sets up the Carbon tax ( values the bullshit ) and who over sees the refund scheme and who and how much do the administrators need to fund such tripe.. Come on Luc anything of this nature has the dirty paw prints of big government and the ‘suits”all over it, they take great delight in producing worthless bits of paper that some poor peasant has sweated for. It’s not I that lacks comprehension it’s mindless pawns like yourself only to willing to appease the con artists.
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January 9, 2010 10:38am
grumpyoldhori

MikeNZ, our values, encouraging a NZ born citizen to be a traitor to NZ is following our values.
I would have more time for the Israelis if they handed that bloody traitor back to us so we can give him a hemp swing then a fair trial.

I’m curious are you NZ born ?
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January 9, 2010 10:57am
Luc Hansen

MikeNZ

Thanks for the links. I’m away for the weekend now so I will have to read through them later for a fuller reply. A few quick notes based on your one-liners:

I don’t trust jpost with anything of yours let alone history. Haaretz is much better, but there is still lots to disagree with in their pages.

Thinking that western style democracy trumps human rights is simply wrongheaded. I posit that even if Israel suffered an IDF takeover, which is has been close to once or twice and may yet happen, would not change US support one iota. So democracy is irrelevant. Even democracies commit war crimes, as Israel so readily illustrates.

I agree with that the two state solution is bullshit, but for different reasons to you, I’m sure. It still remains a staging post for a final settlement.

Reid, the people who fund the scientists are generally governments as they are the primary, but not exclusive, funders of our scientific bodies and universities. Most governments were initially hostile to the concept of AGW and it’s the last thing politicians want to deal with. None of them will be there when the shit really hits the fan.

You imply all governments want to rise more and more tax, not quite what for, when in fact the opposite is the case as tax cuts helps them get reelected.

Gordon Brown has suggested just such a Tobin Tax, but the US immediately vetoed it. It doesn’t suit the imperialists to pay reparations for the damage it has wrought, especially on the least developed nations who can least afford to adapt to this disaster.

And your celtic tiger has fallen over badly, with no recovery in sight. All that will save it is what kicked off its renaissance, EU slush funds.

I’m not sure what your idea of world wide democracy has to do with wiping out most of the species on the planet, yes, another great extinction is on the way, has got do with the price of fish. Maybe you can expand.
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January 9, 2010 12:44pm
Owen McShane

We are used to the claims that weather is not climate and that any cold spell is just weather while any hot spell is climate etc.

But I would have thought that weather and climate would be differentiated in two dimensions – both space and time.

In other words a spell of cold weather or a spell of hot weather in a single location is indeed likely to be “just weather”

But a cold spell or a hot spell over a whole hemisphere is surely likely to be climate as much as a spell of thirty years is likely to be climate.

The present cold spell looks to me like climate because it is hitting North America, Europe, the Indian subcontinent and Asia/China ie the whole Northern Hemisphere.
The MWP and the LIA simlarly hit whole areas of the globe for long periods of time.

Isn’t this “whole hemisphere of cold weather” a reasonable indicator that we may be looking at a genuine climatic cooling rather than just a spell of cold weather?

Any thoughts or comments or sources?

Luc, I am not a climate scientist if only because when I went through university there was no such discipline.
And what’s more I am not an engineer although I did pass my Engineering Intermediate which means I have a reasonable grasp of Maths, Applied Maths, Physics and Chemistry. Al Gore is not a climate scientist either and you do not have to be a climate scientist to have an opinion on whether there was a Medieaval Warm Period and a Little Ice Age. IN fact it seems you have to a climate scientist to believe they never happened.
And I would like you to tell me where and when I have lied. You say I am a liar but I find many AGW proponents call anyone who expresses any skepticism a liar – which is hardly in the tradition of civilised discourse.
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January 9, 2010 4:00pm
Luc Hansen

Owen, you are not a skeptic. You are a denier.

I am a skeptic by nature, and I owe a debt of gratitude to my wife and Kiwiblog for for my conversion from a skeptic, a denier, even, to one of the horrified – horrified at the legacy it appears we are bequeathing to our descendants. Even if it all turns out to be wrong, I don’t care. There is no way we can do any harm by making our planet a healthier place for future humans – your children, Owen, and your grandchildren, and their children and their grandchildren.

My wife pointed out two things when I met her four years ago: first, very pointedly, what if the scientists are right? Second, how can we imagine that pouring all those pollutants into our life giving atmosphere CANNOT have a detrimental effect? That view simply beggars belief.

Kiwiblog posters raised objections to the concept of AGW and I assiduously researched each for a long time until I became convinced that they are just a mixture of the contrarians, the deluded, the selfish and the callous.

Which are you, Owen?

PS Anyone who knows Owen could kindly alert him to this post. And tell him I have at least once, but I think more, posted a pretty comprehensive reply to his bullshit – but he appears to be just an occasional visitor. Probably more interested in his pipe and slippers!
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January 10, 2010 11:11pm
Andrew W

Luc, Owen is here:
http://www.rmastudies.org.nz/
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January 11, 2010 10:54am
stephen

…and the Herald (from time to time) and the NBR.
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January 11, 2010 11:50am

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