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January 5, 2010 7:14am by David Farrar

General Debate 5 January 2009

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General Debate

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Rex Widerstrom

Rod says:

Personally I think the left-right debate completely misses the point. It’s the Totalitarians you need to be wary of. They come in many forms, not just at government level. They are part of our everyday life, and want to control you.

You’re absolutely right (pardon the pun) Rod. Even though most conservatives want small government, they imagine that operating in a world where we’ve all accepted, and live by, conservative principles. The right to abortion is never defended quite as heartily as, say, the right to bear arms you’ll notice, nor freedom from religion as cherished as freedom of religion. And they fulminate about how the rest of us are too weak to see the logical purity of their ideas. Quite how we’ll get there I don’t know (though I quite like the idea of mind control implants myself).

Meanwhile most lefties are at least smart enough to know most people don’t want a bar of their interference in their lives, so plan to impose conformity through big government and penalties for non-compliance.

Distilled down, both sides want a form of groupthink – where an elite decides what’s acceptable. Anyone who deviates from the rigidity of these respective belief systems is decried as heretic by both sides, but usually more vocally by their opponents, who have a vested interest in demonising the “other side” so as to maintain the status quo. (cf reactions to Ryan Sproull above).

Better for the lefties that the righties win power than that the people do, because the time will come when the pendulm swings and the lefties get their turn again. And vice versa.

The only viable alternative used to be anarchy, because it simply wasn’t possible to create an effective public polity wherein everyone could have a say. Technological advances mean that it is now, however, which ought to render “right” and “left” as outmoded as, say, Communism or Nazism. Funnily enough, those in government are quite keen to continue the divide between left and right so as to obscure the viability of the alternative.
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January 5, 2010 6:40pm
Sonny Blount

imagine that operating in a world where we’ve all accepted, and live by, conservative principles. The right to abortion is never defended quite as heartily as, say, the right to bear arms you’ll notice, nor freedom from religion as cherished as freedom of religion.

I’m pro abortion, don’t own any guns, agnostic, and I’m ‘conservative’. The same is true for the majority of my conservative friends.

I would conclude Rex that you are imagining a particular minority as all conservatives, thats a bit like thinking all leftists are like John Minto. Perhaps you should get out more.
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January 5, 2010 8:49pm
malcolm

Sonny, you’ve just highlighted the reason I avoid the labels: conservative, liberal etc. They carry more baggage and preconceptions than meaning.

They’re next to useless IMHO, unless you want a single word to discredit every view and opinion of someone, without the bother of actually knowing what those views and opinions are. In that case they’re very useful words.
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January 5, 2010 9:18pm
Redbaiter

Rex is a liberal. They don’t know fuck all about anything, least of all Conservatism. Never stops them defining it according to their own shallow perceptions though.
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January 5, 2010 9:27pm
wreck1080

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/freezing-temperatures-massive-snowfalls-wreak-havoc-around-the-world/story-e6frg6so-1225816337510

Forecasters have also warned Britons to brace themselves for a winter season that is set to be the coldest for more than 30 years

I understood global warming was supposed to make winters mild.
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January 5, 2010 9:38pm
TimG_Oz

Oh God – John Minto organising a protest because there’s a Jew in town. What a racist, pro war, ignorant dickhead….

I Wish I could travel up to Auckland while I am here in the country to protest against John Minto
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January 5, 2010 9:53pm
MikeNZ

Redbaiter
A good link I’ll look for the book at the library.

I consider myself a centrist and don’t see left and right as such.
either you are for freedom and democracy or state control, left and right are two sides of the same coin.

The thing I dislike most about leftists is they say they act for our best and treat us like we are worthless and can’t think as they bring more state/govt intrusion into our lives.
Similarly they do not hold people to account for their choices and decisions tending towards blaming either society or the environment (same thing) for their poor decisions which shows their arrogance and condescending position towards us children to their adulthood.
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January 5, 2010 9:54pm
MikeNZ

Bruce Hamilton (12) Says:
January 5th, 2010 at 2:42 pm

Thank you for putting me right, I wasn’t paying attention as I read a number of items on the subject.
I didn’t save the links under tabs so can’t put it right.
Appreciate the heads up.
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January 5, 2010 10:05pm
Sonny Blount

“It was hard to understand but I did hear my name all the time which wasn’t really nice.”

Peer says Auckland is the only place where she ever hears protests against her appearing, but it won’t stop her coming back.

Nice one John. I wouldn’t mind him doing some jail time around November 2011 for theft and interfering with an election.
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January 5, 2010 10:09pm
MikeNZ

TimG
If it were in Wtn I would protest against Minto too.
Silly protests like this are like little stab wounds, enough of them and they do damage to the larger constituency even as they hurt the individual.

But OB1 can now do serious damage to Israel.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1139700.html

On another attack line that’s why it is important for Israel to deal back to the UN orchestrated by the OIA block.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1262339382152&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
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January 5, 2010 10:16pm
Redbaiter

” left and right are two sides of the same coin.”

Worthless crap. I expected far better. There are so many facts and so much logic to attack this pronouncement it leaves me speechless. That so many people who should no better buy into such a meaningless slogan is even more astounding.

For example, how can said groups be the same when one yearns for big government and the legislation interfering in every facet of our lives and demands that every individual should yield to the collective for the greater good, and the other desires minimal government and minimum regulation and maximum individual freedom and responsibility?

For another example, how can one group that perceives every man’s income and property as being primarily the property of the collective, and the other group that reveres private property rights and the unassailable right of every independent man to retain the fruits of his labour be considered equal in political perspective???

To perceive this as representative of “two sides of the same coin” is just unbelievable rank idiocy and ignorance, and those who willingly repeat this irrational and deliberately deceitful propaganda should swing from the lamp posts along with the extreme left when the revolution finally comes.

Fence sitters, or worse, those who repeat slander that attacks the principles of liberty are just as harmful as the extreme left.
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January 5, 2010 10:32pm
Rex Widerstrom

Redbaiter suggests:

Rex is a liberal. They don’t know fuck all about anything

As malcolm wisely points out above, labels are a waste of time. In any case, my point (which clearly went right over your head) is that my views, or yours, or John Key’s or Helen Clark’s shouldn’t count for more than anyone elses, but in the system we have at present the views of some outweigh those of others, even though those others may be in the majority (the EFA, Section 59 etc etc) and we should fix it.

The people who “know fuck all about anything” tend to be those who indulge in ad hominems when then point being raised is too complex to understand. The word there is “ignoramus”. And if you want to find one of those, I suspect you’d only need to walk about as far as the bathroom mirror.
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January 5, 2010 10:32pm
Redbaiter

” then point being raised is too complex to understand. ”

Rex, there is no “point”, complex or otherwise. Merely self defeating waffle that turns back on itself and comes to no real conclusion. Fence sitting meaningless rubbish.
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January 5, 2010 10:53pm
wreck1080

Ha , and another even better from the UK news….

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-big-freeze-hits-travel-with-worse-to-come-1858088.html

Britain is facing one of the coldest winters in 100 years with conditions causing “widespread, persistent and severe” problems this week, forecasters warned

The coldest winter in 100 years? Global warming my a**!
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January 5, 2010 11:17pm
Rex Widerstrom

Redbaiter:

Fence sitting meaningless rubbish.

Direct democracy, in whatever form, is hardly fence sitting, or meaningless. Whether it’s rubbish depends, I guess, on you point of view on it. Which (if you can cease being phlegmatic for a moment) is…?
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January 5, 2010 11:22pm
Redbaiter

Rex, you know all about the left, but nothing about the right. “Direct democracy”???? A euphemism for the tyranny of the majority. A constitution limiting the extent and power of government is the only real solution.
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January 5, 2010 11:29pm
Sonny Blount

” left and right are two sides of the same coin.”

Worthless crap. I expected far better. There are so many facts and so much logic to attack this pronouncement it leaves me speechless. That so many people who should no better buy into such a meaningless slogan is even more astounding.

I agree Red. There are measurables differences between countries that take different paths. And ideas that are proven correct are accepted by everyone and no longer feature as differences, such as capitilism being embraced by almost all mainstream left parties.
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January 6, 2010 1:02am
Rex Widerstrom

I’m all for limited government Red… admittedly not as limited as you’d like to see it, probably, but nothing annoys me more than seeing government, and misnamed “public servants” granting powers to themselves and then setting about using them to hinder, harry and oppress the rest of us. I agree a constiution limiting the powers of government is necessary.

But we then need some way to reach agreement on matters affecting us all, surely? If a minimal government taxes minimally to fund even the most fundamental services (law enforcement, defence etc) then its citizens have a right to debate and decie how much they’re taxed and on what it is spent.

Unless we’re all going to form small militias and take to the woods in some “Mad Max”-like nation of small clans?
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January 6, 2010 5:33am
MikeNZ

Redbaiter (8301) Says:
January 5th, 2010 at 10:32 pm

Sorry red the word extreme should be there too.

Look at a line on the left is anarchy and in the centre is democracy on the right is dictatorship being full control of everything.

The left and right extreme occupy the right side.
they are two sides of the same coin and seek to control all of our affairs.
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January 6, 2010 7:46am
MikeNZ

Where would you say these people are on that line?

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/01/saudi_arabia_spoilt_child_of_t.html
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January 6, 2010 8:03am
Sonny Blount

Look at a line on the left is anarchy and in the centre is democracy on the right is dictatorship being full control of everything.

I would reverse those two outcomes.
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January 6, 2010 9:00am
MikeNZ

why sonny
the extreme right want to control every part of life too.
They are just as corrupt as the extreme left.

One side is anarchy with absolutely no control and the other is complete control/dictatorship.
The fact that anarchy gives way to warlords and then little dictatorship is irrelevant to the discussion.
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January 6, 2010 9:20am
Redbaiter

” on the right is dictatorship being full control of everything.”

Completely clueless.

The only government that can control everything has to be big and powerful to do so, and is therefore a leftist concept. What do you think the government of China is? An example of small government freedom loving Conservatism? What do you think Adolf Hitler was?? An example of small government freedom loving Conservatism.

You seem to have immense trouble coping with the fact that the core requirement of the right is a government that is small and weak. The whole idea of Conservatism is to prevent government from ever growing powerful enough to intrude on the rights of the individual.

Where you get your deluded ideas from MikeNZ I can only guess, but it sounds to me like you have been drinking the Libertarian Kool ade.
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January 6, 2010 9:58am

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