General Debate 21 January 2010

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Auberon

Labour’s focus groups have spoken, and they clearly like the sound of “hard working families.” The phrase featured in a Phil Goff press release yesterday and was parroted by Jacinda Ardern in her breakfast TV slot a few minutes ago.

Or maybe the phrase’s use was just the gut feeling of Clare Curran – she’s a genius!
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January 21, 2010 8:10am
democracymum

The axe is hanging over some pretty big Kiwi institutions – time for the people to speak out!!!
Pineapple lumps, jaffas and chocolate fish

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10621378
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January 21, 2010 8:23am
Pete George

Speak out against private enterprises doing as they please to make a buck democracymum? I’ve nothing against chocolate, but those “institutions” you mention are severely diluted with sugar. And Kraft aren’t all bad – don’t they make vegemite?
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January 21, 2010 8:27am
democracymum

Pete George

My children’s entire education hinged on succesfully answering questions for pineapple lumps – what are you saying?
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January 21, 2010 8:30am
TripeWryter

I saw a picture in The Dominion Post this morning of Murray McCully and Mike Moore, accompanied by their ‘press secretaries’ — unnamed. Who are these people, and why are they never named? The media invariabley call them [a minister’s] spokeswoman or spokesman.

Can some of the journalists who post here tell us why these people — whose salaries we pay — are never named? Is there are a new convention / rule?

[DPF: AFAIK Murray McCully’s press secretary is James Funnell who is a professional MFAT staffer who has served many different Foreign Ministers.

The convention tends to be you don’t name them when they are merely delivering their boss’ message. If they do something newsworthy in their own right, then they get named]
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January 21, 2010 8:31am
dad4justice

Press secretary (PS) = parasitic sucker (ps) .
Call up another spin doctor John Boy.
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January 21, 2010 8:34am
Pete George

I’m saying you should feed your kids a decent fix of concentrated chocolate, maybe with a few nuts added, and let them eat real pineapples. I’m only half joking.
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January 21, 2010 8:35am
Robinson 666

Were they lying, or were they joking when they said that we were gonna get tax cuts?

Raising gst is a feakin tax increase!
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January 21, 2010 8:47am
Murray

I’ll be sure to let my brother who has worked as a PS for several politicians your opinion d4j.

I have no doubt he’ll give it the consideration it deserves.
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January 21, 2010 8:50am
andrei

They are going to have to grind the Biblical references off of the New Zealand Defense forces Gunsights – oh dear

http://nzconservative.blogspot.com/2010/01/john-812-sends-wrong-sort-of-message.html
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January 21, 2010 8:54am
PaulL

They’re never named because politicians don’t want people getting the idea that they’re real people, and, god forbid, that they’re smarter than the politicians are.
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January 21, 2010 8:55am
Pete George

Robinson, you have to look at the total feakin package, not single taxes in isolation. If they couldn’t raise any taxes for anyone they couldn’t reform.

And some people will pay more tax, or some tax, that’s a major point of this exercise, it is currently too easy to weedle their way out of paying a reasonable share.
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January 21, 2010 8:57am
PaulL

On Cadbury – “experts believe the Kraft takeover of Cadbury in Britain could mean the end of local delicacies in favour of worldwide brands.”

Yeah, I’d like to see these experts. Sounds like a journalist interviewing their typewriter, and then another journalist copying it. They’ll keep making all those brands as long as they’re profitable. If they stop making them, we’ll still have all those copies of them to eat – last I looked I could get things that looked and tasted like jaffas but weren’t made by Cadbury.
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January 21, 2010 8:58am
Brian Smaller

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/3248154/Avatar-language-based-on-Maori

So the language of the natives in Avatar is based on Maori and everyone is happy, but when Leggo made some robot toys called Bionicles with made up Polynesian names there was a hue and cry from the PC police.
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January 21, 2010 9:05am
Auberon

‘Avatar language based on Maori’ is a bloody misleading headline. Not only does the story not really back it up, saying some of the sounds were similar, but the genius academic who developed the language was interviewed by Kim Hill a few weeks ago and he made it pretty clear that it was based on the sounds and structures of numerous languages of which Maori was just one.
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January 21, 2010 9:10am
Brian Smaller

Auberon – I thought it was Woodland Indian because I thought I was seeing a J Fenmore Cooper book being brought to life.
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January 21, 2010 9:14am
Razork

I went to the opening of the deans stand at AMI stadium this morning at the ungodly hour of 5.30am.

I tell you that despite the constant bagging of the PM from the generally right wing posters on this blog, he is very much admired amongst the ChCh business community.

I don’t think he has too much to worry about.
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January 21, 2010 9:17am
RightNow

Ha, Red Alert has the Microsoft NZ MD commenting on their blog (but then he is a ginge)
http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2010/01/18/is-the-govt-tech-aware/comment-page-1/#comment-27407
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January 21, 2010 9:26am
wreck1080

Yeah, funny how goff always refers to hard working kiwis.

I’m a hard working kiwi, yet i detest Goff pretending to represent me. The smarmy git only represents himself I think. Well , i guess he is the night watchman after all.

I’m not sure how Goff can criticise the tax changes , especially when it targets those who have the wealth to create tax avoiding financial structures.

These tax changes rectify that situation (largely bought on by labour when they raised the top tax rate).
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January 21, 2010 9:27am
big bruv

It looks like more of my money is going to be used to bail out Northland farmers who are suffering through drought conditions.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/farming/3221357/Government-may-consider-drought-assistance

Why the hell do we as tax payers have to bail out these bastards year after year?, if it is not a flood it is a drought, every other small business in NZ cannot run to the tax payer when things get bad so why should these pricks?.
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January 21, 2010 9:30am
Redbaiter

” I tell you that despite the constant bagging of the PM from the generally right wing posters on this blog, he is very much admired amongst the ChCh business community. ”

Probably because the greater majority of them are not really businessmen but rather crony capitalists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI4MC304yUU

(John Stossel on Crony Capitalism”.)

There are actually 6 parts to the video, but watch the first one above and you’ll get the drift.
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January 21, 2010 9:37am
Redbaiter

The other 5 parts are here if anyone is interested-

2/6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzqTXTHe2ZE
3/6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6fjiPYvPzg
4/6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCmw8hZSdOI
5/6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nahyeLS16zw
6/6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fnwBUu6l2w
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January 21, 2010 9:38am
noskire

Auberon, you can see where this is heading though. Some Maori hothead will come out of the woodwork today and want compensation because iwi weren’t consulted blah blah blah…
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January 21, 2010 9:39am
Pete George

The current Kiwiblog poll is too limited in it’s choices.

What do you want to happen upon the death of the Queen?

I want my TV to be turned off for the following two weeks.

And more seriously – is republic the only viable alternative when we choose to do away with foreign royalty?

Our system works reasonably now, so best to keep it similar and as simple as possible. The two house levels they have in US seems to be very inefficient, they can both be working on conflicting legislation at the same time.
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January 21, 2010 9:41am
gravedodger

Spent a very rewarding and humbling couple of hours yesterday serving lunch and cleaning up after, for the Camp Quality at Living Springs near Governors Bay. This is a Lions activity where we offer a week of camp and entertainment for Young people in a battle with cancer. Each of these very special people has a personal “minder”, some of whom have given a week of their year to do this year on year, and the program gives the parents and other family members of the children a week of respite. Lions run five regional camps throughout NZ with I believe two in the Auckland area. The camps don’t come cheap but with some terrific sponsorship and the efforts of Lions 202 they are fully funded. An old friend who has been a Lion for many more years than I, said once it is the most rewarding and humbling thing he ever did in his years of service club activities, I entirely agree. .The positivity, vitality and energy of all those kids and the obviously unselfish attitude of the carers and the staff is truly inspirational.
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January 21, 2010 9:43am
kowtow

A significant milestone on Europe’s road to demise as Geert Wilders goes on trial in Holland today

http://www.internationalfreepresssociety.org/2010/01/the-trial-of-geert-wilders-a-symposium/
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January 21, 2010 9:51am
Brian Smaller

kowtow – All I can say about travesty in Holland is “Geert Akbar”. This is a show trial. He will be be found guilty and Europe will take one big leap towards sharia. Get your kids to do their OE soon.
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January 21, 2010 9:58am
Murray

“What do you want to happen upon the death of the Queen?”

The pissant New Zealand republican “movement” to get a fucking life would be the box I tick.

But like socialists they never let a small thing like being a pathetic minority stop them from assuming that they should make decisions for other people.

[DPF: Murray equates wanting the public to decide, as making decisions for other people. I suspect you’re just scared that if there ever is a vote, the Republicans will win easily]
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January 21, 2010 10:03am
kowtow

ouch ,that should be yesterday.
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January 21, 2010 10:06am
Robinson 666

Tax reductions for a few rich people, but with overall tax increases for ordinary NZers, with the end result of the total tax intake increasing.

Despite the denials of Key and co, taxes are on the way up.
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January 21, 2010 10:10am
Redbaiter

” Spent a very rewarding and humbling couple of hours yesterday serving lunch and cleaning up after, for the Camp Quality at Living Springs near Governors Bay. ”

Well done Grave Dodger. Be pleased though if some Lion’s clubs could stop being echo chambers for the propaganda of the Road Safety Commissars.
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January 21, 2010 10:23am
Adolf Fiinkensein

Razork @ 0917

I don’t think ANYONE has ‘too much to worry about’ in that regard.
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January 21, 2010 10:28am
Adolf Fiinkensein

Big Bruv 0930

You really ought to put yourself up for Idiot of The Week.

Exactly which farmers were bailed out last year and the year before?

I suggest you go and see Homepaddock’s blog for a more reasoned perspective. You’ll find there are very few, if any, up front cash benefits. Rather, the ability to defer tax (not evade tax) so that the money can be spent on bought in feed for the time being.
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January 21, 2010 10:34am
big bruv

DPF

“I suspect you’re just scared that if there ever is a vote, the Republicans will win easily”

Bring it on DPF!

Just as long as those of you who insist on trampling all over my heritage agree to STFU when you lose.
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January 21, 2010 10:34am
Jack5

New topic for a moment…

The NZ Army is to remove Biblical quotations from its weapons (see links bleow). As if all Armies don’t think God is on their side (Gott Mit Uns, Allahu Akbar etc), and the verse in the Maori Battalion song: “For God, King, and Country”.

What next? Take the Red Cross off its ambulances and medics? That’s perhaps the greatest of Christian symbols.

The original story comes from the BBC, known by some in Coalition during the second Gulf War as the Bagdad Broadcasting Corporation. The Biblical references were put on advanced gun sights by a Christian manufacturer in America, The whole ruckus apparently stems from a Muslim rifleman in the American Army. The Biblical inscriptions seem to be non-warlike, and more likely seem to comfort or assure a soldier.

The BBC says the American and British forces are concerned about the Biblical inscriptions. So perhaps the Americans and British, too, should look at replacing the Red Cross symbol.Then watch the massive reaction from the public. Or perhaps the people of these countries should tell their military now to toughen up and forget the PC crap.

However, the NZ Army has been quick to act, and this follows the reprimanding of troops for writing messages on bombs/shells. What would the Anzacs have thought of this? It comes a week or two after the head of the RNZAF appeared to be on the point of weeping when he talked on TV of the death of one pilot.

Wayne Mapp has a big job to reverse the PC-ising of our armed forces under the anti-war protester Helen Klark with her apparently conflicting love of war memorials and old battlefields.

Acccording to the BBC, the two texts referred to on the rifles are:

“When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, ‘I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

AND

“For God, who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.”

Pretty harmless, eh?

Links:

The BBC on Biblical verses on arms:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8a468981.stm

The NZ story:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3248161/Undesirable-biblical-references-to-be-removed
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January 21, 2010 10:35am
OTGO

I agree wreck1080 at 9.27am. When I hear of some politician talking about hard working Kiwi’s I get the impression that they are talking about those on the lower end of the pay scale. The suggestion is that higher earners are not hard working. Well I got news for them, it was hard work and risk taking that got them there so tax cuts should be more for them/us/me than the others. If that sounds selfish well too bad. Guess it just confirms my starboard bias.
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January 21, 2010 10:35am
Pete George

Just as long as those of you who insist on trampling all over my heritage agree to STFU when you lose.

Until next time. And that time will come, as the old blighties die off. And a few years of Charlie will swing the young further away from the archaics.
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January 21, 2010 10:37am
Murray

DPF bullshit, you’re a pollster so you know damned well your seperatist colective of self appointed wannabes are doomed to get the lime light for 10 minutes every time a royal visits and nothing else. Pissing money away on having the least significant referendum in our history is just plain sad. That you’d line yourself up with Keth The Loon Locke is just plan bloody tragic.

The next time you accuse me of cowadice in any form it will be a personal problem between us.

[DPF: The last poll had 45% wanting King Charles and 43% wanting a republic once the Queen dies. So I’m very confident that a referendum is winnable. And don’t call names if you get offended by them]
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January 21, 2010 10:39am
big bruv

Adolf

I had no idea you were a farmer, that might explain your rather precious and hypocritical stance when it comes to hand outs or tax payer assistance for the agriculture sector.

It might also explain why you insist on being a cheer leader for the National Socialist government.

You can get as angry as you like Adolf but the fact remains that no other small business in NZ can run to the tax payer when things get tough, they, like the rest of us should have to deal with the market conditions, if it does not rain for a while then tough fucking luck.
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January 21, 2010 10:41am
Ryan Sproull

Oh no he di’int!
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January 21, 2010 10:41am
Pete George

The Biblical inscriptions seem to be non-warlike, and more likely seem to comfort or assure a soldier.

What do they say?

“Don’t worry about a commandment or two, blast shit out of them and just repent when you get home”?
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January 21, 2010 10:41am
Banana Llama

Interesting Story Jack5, I notice from the link you provided they have this at the end.

“”We should not be doing anything that might give opponents any propaganda leverage.” If that is a concern perhaps they “should not be doing anything”
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January 21, 2010 10:47am
Redbaiter

” the old blighties die off.”

You mean the citizens who have escaped your brainwashing camapigns that have replaced education in our schools??
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January 21, 2010 10:48am
big bruv

Pete

I am glad that you have no problem with the idea of President Clark, Turia or god forbid us, President Bolger.

I cannot believe that so many people have been conned by the hard left into thinking that your history and heritage is not important, try telling the Maori party that in the interest of the new republic they must drop all ties with the past and their ancestors.

Good luck with that.
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January 21, 2010 10:49am
Jack5

Re my 10.35 post:

Had trouble with the link to the BBC story. Sorry (but thanks Banana Llama).

Try this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8468981.stm

Pete George (10.41): I’m not sure what you mean. I printed the references as quoted by the BBC.
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January 21, 2010 10:49am
Pete George

All the history and heritage that is important to me is in NZ.

I am glad that you have no problem with the idea of President Clark, Turia or god forbid us, President Bolger.

Who I (or you) have a problem with shouldn’t matter, as long as it is done democratically, and and as long as whatever figurehead position is put in place has bugger all to do with the running of the country.

What if the next king turns out to be a right twat (or a left twat)? At the moment we have no control at all over who is at the top of our own country.

Jack, just pointing out that wearing a cross around your neck while using cross hairs to line up the next person to kill seems to be at odds with some teachings.
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January 21, 2010 10:57am
Matt Long

DPF, if the Rebulic comes through, no doubt with Helun as Pres, will we get a beautiful new half billion dollar Presidential Palace designed along the same spectacular lines as the Supreme Court? 🙂 The thing I like about the royals are they are relatively cheap and inoffensive.

[DPF: I think the $150 million Helen approved for Govt House will mean it will suffice for any President]
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January 21, 2010 10:58am
big bruv

Pete

Leaving aside that becoming a republic is not going to happen in the next fifty years, can I ask you (as a Republican) why we need a President?

What would be wrong with the PM being the head of state?
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January 21, 2010 11:02am
Jack5

Pete George at 10.57:

…At the moment we have no control at all over who is at the top of our own country….

Yes we do. Our vote each general election determines that. The Prime Minister is at the top, as should be the case.
The Governor-General is a ceremonial figurehead, and that’s the way it should be.

We get a president, and the Prime Minister won’t necessarily be at the top.
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January 21, 2010 11:03am
Pete George

Matt, we all ready have Governor General residences that are more than adequate. And support staff etc. We may never notice the difference.

And if democratically appointed I’d accept Clark being the whatever it is called. But there is a lot of doubt about who would be there – considering that it probably won’t be for another decade or two.

Jack, Queen Elizabeth is our head of state, the GG is her local representative. We don’t choose here, and we don’t chose whether Charles or William follow her.
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January 21, 2010 11:03am
nickb

I’m not normally one to defend John Key, but is anyone else heartily sick of the snide and idiotic letters being written to the editors around the country?

There was a pearler in the Herald yesterday from one of these philu/roger nome/sonic types along the lines of “So John Key, the $50 million dollar man, can swan around Hawaii for Xmas, and then turn down a $15 minimum wage. A let them eat cake moment if ever their was one!”

This basic lack of understanding of economics and running a small business, and the use of class warfare and the politics of envy, is the reason Labour are destined to years in political irrelevance.
Leave John Key alone, he is a successful and intelligent man, who has made it in the real world. Which is not something one can say about, well, anyone in the Green and Labour parties.
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January 21, 2010 11:14am
Jack5

Pete George at 10.57 (on the NZ Army’s not wanting Christian references on its arms):

…just pointing out that wearing a cross around your neck while using cross hairs to line up the next person to kill seems to be at odds with some teachings.

Undoubtedly there is a conflict there, which is why some Christians were conscientious objectors or served by their own request as medics etc in World War 2.

But you have to admit, Pete, that if a then more church-going West in 1939-1945 hadn’t reconciled Christianity with fighting as soldiers, Hitler’s Germany and its allies would have won.

Also compare the appalling acts of the deChristianised Red Army in the closing stages of World War 2 with both the general behaviour of Christian American and British troops and with the Christian Russian soldiers in earlier conflicts (eg World War 1 and against Napoleon). Christianity does appear usually, if not always, to have some ameliorating effect on human behaviour during war.

But the gunsight texts opposed by the NZ Army seem to me, an agnostic, to be designed to comfort human combatants enduring the danger and viciousness of war, rather than to endorse war.

Could we see the NZ Army banning soldiers from carrying Bibles or New Testaments with them?
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January 21, 2010 11:16am
Ryan Sproull

Of course, the Germans were predominantly church-goers themselves. They had to reconcile their Christianity with violence first.
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January 21, 2010 11:25am
Pete George

Could we see the NZ Army banning soldiers from carrying Bibles or New Testaments with them?

We shouldn’t, that’s personal choice. One of my grandfathers may have been saved in WWI by his chest pocket bible taking the brunt of a bullet. They shouldn’t be necessary for that any more, but if someone wants to carry one they should be able to.

I accept the need for war sometimes. That’s why it is necessary to be pragmatic rather than literal about the bible.
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January 21, 2010 11:25am
Jack5

Pete at 11.03:

…Queen Elizabeth is our head of state, the GG is her local representative. We don’t choose here, and we don’t chose whether Charles or William follow her..

Pete will you accept any referendum result against a republic as being a vote for the British monarch being our head of state until another referendum ends this?

What I like about the present arrangement is the extreme lightness of the head-of-state layer, and its virtual non-power in the country. We are virtually a republic, but with a figurehead for the stamps and coins and occasional ceremonies that also links us to our past, our language, our law, our political system, our cultural heritage.

Do we really want another layer of Wellington bureaucrats and some Bolger-type thicko having new political powers?

If we must have a republic, let’s bite the bullet and join Australia as a state. NZ seems to be teetering around the limit for minimum economic size for a prosperous Western country. A president will add to national costs (the Royal family costs us virtually nothing), and make the chances of our economic survival as a developed economy more tenuous.

Whose head would you rather have on stamps: Prince William’s or Bolger’s?
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January 21, 2010 11:27am
nickb

An excellent paragraph in the tax working group report:

“In effect, Working for Families means that households (with children) in the bottom half of the income
distribution effectively pay no income tax or receive tax credits, and that most income tax is paid by
those people not receiving WfF. The top 10% of income earners now pay 44% of all personal income
tax (if the impact of WfF, New Zealand Superannuation and other benefi ts including the unemployment
benefi t are included, the top 10% of taxpayers now pay 76% of net tax). Furthermore, fi scal drag (a
situation where rising incomes push people into paying higher tax rates over time if there is no change
to tax thresholds) means that about 9% of income earners are now paying the top tax rate (compared to
about 5% in 2000). Fiscal drag also means that New Zealand’s revenue base will be increasingly reliant
on personal taxes and these taxes, along with corporate taxes, are the most damaging for growth.”
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January 21, 2010 11:27am
eszett

big bruv (5255) Says:
January 21st, 2010 at 10:49 am

Pete

I am glad that you have no problem with the idea of President Clark, Turia or god forbid us, President Bolger.

I cannot believe that so many people have been conned by the hard left into thinking that your history and heritage is not important, try telling the Maori party that in the interest of the new republic they must drop all ties with the past and their ancestors.

Good luck with that

There is nothing today to stop a GG Clark, Turia or Bolger.
A more democratic and transparent process would be desirable.

History and Heritage is important, but that does that mean you can’t change things when they may not be valid any longer?
How does your history and heritage get affected if we choose to become a republic?
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January 21, 2010 11:31am
TripeWryter

To DPF:

Thanks for the explanation re ministers’ press secretaries. I don’t think it’s a healthy convention. It didn’t used to be. In the ’90s they were usually named.

There were even feature stories in the old Dominion and Evening Post about who they were, how many there were, who they worked for, and their estimated salaries.

The not-naming seems to be a recent (ie, last four years) thing.
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January 21, 2010 11:32am
Matt Long

Big Bruv I think the handouts you refer to are food handouts for the small minority of farmers who are unable to afford even that. I must admit I do slightly resent that some incompetents get those kind of handouts, but I guess their families should not be deprived.
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January 21, 2010 11:35am
Matt Long

“Matt, we all ready have Governor General residences that are more than adequate. And support staff etc. We may never notice the difference.”

Pete “Adequate” have you never observed Public Servants in action, or is your statement meant to be satire?
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January 21, 2010 11:38am
Jack5

Ryan Sproull posted at 11.25:

…Of course, the Germans were predominantly church-goers themselves. They had to reconcile their Christianity with violence first…

I presume you are talking about World War 2, Ryan.

The SS banned Christian marriage and Christian symbols in its ranks. Its troopers did not use the Gott Mit Uns belt buckle.

Yes many German Protestants and Catholics supported the Nazis, but there were also those like Pastor Niemoller, a famous U-boat commander in World War 1, who opposed Hitler and was kept in solitary confinement by the Nazis for seven years.

Yes, Christianity has always had a mixed record on violence, but has been nowhere near as pro-war as Islam, even today, where Sudanese are converted at gunpoint. However, I think the contrasting behaviour of Western soldiers and the atheistic Red Army in 1945 is one demonstration that Christianity has some civilising power. Just as it did when it led the banning of slavery. Even here in NZ, a Presbyterian minister was one of the heroes against the persecution of Chinese goldminers. In World War 2 in Britain, it was an Anglican cleric who led opposition to the carpet bombing of German cities.

As I noted above, I’m an agnostic, but I appreciate Christianity’s contribution to the West.
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January 21, 2010 11:39am
Pete George

Whose head would you rather have on stamps: Prince William’s or Bolger’s?

Neither. Nor someone there now who has probably never seen or used our currency.

Why have someone’s head? There are hardly any tails on the other side.

I’m an agnostic, but I appreciate Christianity’s contribution to the West.

I feel similarly.
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January 21, 2010 11:41am
Pete George

The timeout on edits seems to be much shorter (sometimes). And sometimes I have to refresh the page to be able to Click to Edit.

I wanted to add – but I would be annoyed if I was fighting to find some religious slogans on my weapons.
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January 21, 2010 11:45am
big bruv

eszett

Who the hell are you to tell me what parts of my heritage and ancestry are important?

This is the bit that really gets me with those of you who have been brainwashed by Klark and the rest of the republicans (Irish Catholics mostly) in your drive to have your republic you are more than happy to walk all over the desires of those of us who do not want to be another stupid little pacific banana republic.
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January 21, 2010 11:50am
MT_Tinman

Jack5 (1436) Says:
January 21st, 2010 at 11:03 am

Pete George at 10.57:

…At the moment we have no control at all over who is at the top of our own country….

Yes we do. Our vote each general election determines that. The Prime Minister is at the top, as should be the case.

You have me confused (not an uncommon occurrence at all).

In the elections I remember I voted for a government and a local representative.

That (any) government, without consultation, named a member Prime Minister and changed that Prime Minster whenever the whim overtook them.

The government, also without consultation, selected the Governor General.

How can that process be seen as we (the electors) having control (or even a say) over who is “at the top of our own country”?
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January 21, 2010 12:01pm
eszett

big bruv (5258) Says:
January 21st, 2010 at 11:50 am

eszett

Who the hell are you to tell me what parts of my heritage and ancestry are important?

I never said anything about which part of your heritage is important and which not. I was just curious to find out how it would affect your heritage if NZ became a republic?

And why would NZ suddenly become a “stupid little banana republic”? Is it a stupid little banana monarchy now?
And nobody is walking over anyone, we are encouraging debate and then have a democratic process decide.
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January 21, 2010 12:09pm
Jack5

Garth George lets rip on republicanism today:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10621297

Even if you’re a republican worth it to read his description of the Sunday Star Times — “that irredeemably liberal rag..””

Re MT-Tinman at 12.01:

Are you suggesting that the party and electorate votes aren’t very heavily influenced by the party leader and his/her performance on TV, in the print media, and at public meetings?
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January 21, 2010 12:28pm
eszett

Jack5 (1437) Says:
January 21st, 2010 at 12:28 pm

Garth George lets rip on republicanism today:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10621297

It’s probably the stupidest rant from him that I have ever read.

Never mind his barely disguised cheap shots at MMP.
He argues that in a republic there would not be enough checks and balances. Like there is enough now.
The PM effectively appoints the GG.

Wouldn’t a democratically elected President be a more effective check and balance than an appointed GG?

He implies that the elected list MPs are undemocratic, but he thinks it’s okay to be a monarchy.

It amazes me every time that, the people argue for democracy and in the same breath defend an inherently undemocratic process like the monarchy.
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January 21, 2010 12:58pm
Pete George

The Governor-General, Hon Sir Anand Satyanand, is the personal representative of New Zealand’s Head of State, Queen Elizabeth II of New Zealand.

http://www.gg.govt.nz

We have no say on either of these positions. We can never have any say on the head of state, except to say “no thanks, we don’t want you any more”. And if the second position was then changed to be democratically appointed (by popular vote or by MP super majority) we would be independent and I’d be a bit happier and a bit more proud.

What if Charles becomes our head of state and decides to actually visit more than once every decade or two, and tries to convert us to his ideals? I don’t see him as any part of my heritage, he lives in a different country, a different world, I have no empathy for him or his family. Maybe my Welsh lineage is more dominant than my English.
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January 21, 2010 1:11pm
Jack5

Pete, you’re not kin of Garth George are you?

Brother? cousin?
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January 21, 2010 1:16pm
Pete George

Jack – apparently I am but more distant than that – in relationship and in views. I don’t have any cousins on that side and my grandfather only had half siblings that survived so maybe he is a half second or third or fourth cousin. I’ve never met him.
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January 21, 2010 1:24pm
Auberon

Very disappointed to see the Herald and now Fairfax, on the Stuff website, running a photo that clearly shows the faces of two of our SAS men in Kabul. A shame.
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January 21, 2010 1:50pm
edhunter

at 11.27 jack5
saidIf we must have a republic, let’s bite the bullet and join Australia as a state. NZ seems to be teetering around the limit for minimum economic size for a prosperous Western country. A president will add to national costs (the Royal family costs us virtually nothing), and make the chances of our economic survival as a developed economy more tenuous.

Now that’s a debate worth having instead of this currently meaningless one about replacing one figure head with another all be it a local one.
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January 21, 2010 2:34pm
Pete George

(the Royal family costs us virtually nothing)

The 2009 budget for the Governor General was a total of $19.95 million. That is not “virtually nothing” and should be adequate for a paper president.

I don’t think we should become a state of Australia (I can tolerate an antipodean queen more easily than the trans-Tassy cuzzies becoming bros), but it may be worth linking to their economy.
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January 21, 2010 2:42pm
Repton

But you have to admit, Pete, that if a then more church-going West in 1939-1945 hadn’t reconciled Christianity with fighting as soldiers, Hitler’s Germany and its allies would have won.

In the middle ages, Europe was even more staunchly Catholic. They took the 10 commandments seriously, including “shalt not kill”. Yet they still fought plenty of wars.

However, they also felt that prayer could offset sin. And it didn’t have to be your praryer; other people could pray for you. Hence, warring kings and princes got to go to heaven by paying monks to pray for them.

It lead to an interesting cycle: someone would start up an order of monks, dedicated to a life of asceticism. Nobels would notice them, decide that they must be super-holy and so their prayers must be super-effective, and start giving them lots of money in exchange for prayer. The monastery would get rich, and the monks would start bending their rules and living lives of comparitive luxury. Until someone got fed up with it all, and broke away, starting a new order of monks dedicated to a life of asceticism. Then the nobels would notice..
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January 21, 2010 5:40pm
Repton

@MT_Tinman:

In the elections I remember I voted for a government and a local representative.

That (any) government, without consultation, named a member Prime Minister and changed that Prime Minster whenever the whim overtook them.

Be fair; you knew at the last election that you were either voting for a government lead by Helen Clark, or for a government lead by John Key. There was a theoretical chance that a different party would have lead the government, but you knew who their leaders were too.

Sure, the governing party could roll their leader and replace them, but that doesn’t happen much (when was the last time?). But to say that (for instance) John Key was appointed without consultation is disingeneous; there was a very big public consultation on hits fitness to lead in November 2008 🙂
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January 21, 2010 5:45pm
fatman43us

What the hell is Mapp rabbiting on about a Biblical page reference on a telescopic rifle sight. “We are,” he Pontificates, “going to have these taken off as they are inappropriate, expecially in Afghanistan”. What a load of PC bull***t.

I would but the engraving on the bullet, it might help the Teleban when they find out the Virgins are an endangered species.

Get a grip Wayne!!
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January 21, 2010 6:29pm
Paul G. Buchanan

The trouble with the biblical scripture is akin to that of putting an advert on a bomb. The NZDF is a professional secular military. It fights not for profit or religious belief, but for the national security interest. An advert on a bomb makes the the military look undisciplined and unprofessional, while religious scripture of any sort can be interpreted as evidence of motivation. Although this may be true for individual soldiers (especially in the US), the military institution as a whole needs to be seen as fighting “neutrally” in pursuit of national political objectives (remember Clausewitz’s dictum on war being “politics by other means”). Then there is also the problem of these inscribed weapons falling into enemy hands in Muslim countries and confirming to them that a Crusade is in fact underway.

I must admit that the problem is more with the dissemination of the news of the inscriptions rather than their existence per se.

Which brings up the SAS photo from Kabul. Although it is unlikely to have an impact on the soldiers themselves while in theater (even Willy A.), the non-pixilated on-line dissemination of the photos is a direct slap at the long-standing NZDF/government policy of non-identification (which shows press contempt for the regulation), and has the potential to endanger NZDF personnel in a number of combat zones simply because it is now circulating world-wide rather than merely in the print editions of newspapers in NZ. All in all, a highly disrespectful and reckless call by the editors involved.
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January 21, 2010 6:42pm
Pete George

‘Jesus Guns’: Two More Countries Rethink Using Weapons with Secret Bible References

New Zealand Will Erase Codes from Gun Scopes, and British Will Talk to Trijicon, Maker of Scopes

U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious “Crusade” in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.
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January 21, 2010 6:48pm
MT_Tinman

Jack, your 12:28 asks a question.

The answer is no.

Repton, 17:45 No there wasn’t.

Much discussion but no consultation.
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January 21, 2010 7:09pm
Jack5

Re Paul G. Buchanan’s 6.42 post and Pete George’s 6.48:

Regardless, the questions remain: What about the use of the Red Cross as a symbol of ambulance service and medics? What about soldiers who carry Bibles or New Testaments on their person or who wear crosses around their neck?

Will Key and Mapp and the PC Army rule these inappropriate, too?

On Prime Minister Key, I note Razork, after an early morning visit to the revamped AMI stadium/Stadium Christchurch/the Deans stand posted at 9.17am this reference to the PM :

…I tell you that despite the constant bagging of the PM from the generally right wing posters on this blog, he is very much admired amongst the ChCh business community.

Razork, opinion polls show you are right. However, I wouldn’t pay too much attention to the opinions you heard at your early-morning foray to the revamped stadium. You would have been talking largely to members of the Chamber of Commerce and a few other business groups, who represent a very tiny proportion of business people, the vast majority of whom would have been too busy for such a mid-week social gathering.

As to most Kiwiblog posters being right wingers, you are probably right. However, many of the silent majority of business people will be, too. There are probably not more than a handful of prominent left-wing business people, though there are quite a few middle-of-the-roaders, generally professionals from well-off backgrounds. But there are a helluva lot of business people at the right end of the political spectrum and they will be judging John Key right up to the next election.
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January 21, 2010 8:02pm
kowtow

Removing the references is bollocks. The message it sends to the Islamic world is confimation yet again as if it was needed that the West stands for nothing while the Muslim world will always stand unapologetically for their beliefs. They are happy to point out that they love death and we love life,by which they mean we’re soft.

All the footage from Muslim majority countries shows them saying “Allah akbar” while the shots are fired,the bombs go off ,even Pak. artillery men shout it while attacking their foes. Meantime in the West its “get me the angle grinder I dont want to offend”

Showing SAS man realy bad form,no respect for our sevicemen. RSA should organise a boycott . Govt should cut their balls off.
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January 21, 2010 8:36pm
Dirty Rat

What gets me is that Key condemns The Herald, but yet confirms it is Willie Whatshisface.

Go figure.

BTW, Doesnt Willie look like an evil little fucker ?
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January 21, 2010 8:51pm
Jack5

It might be interesting whether Mapp allows chaplains to minister to NZ troops in Afghanistan as they have in all previous wars.
Would they let someone from the Salvation Army like Norman Bicknell minister to our troops there? Bicknell served through most of the North African campaign, and was wounded and sent home, but before that was taken prisoner and escaped back to the Allied lines. Can you imagine him being allowed to lead our Afghanistan troops in “Onward Christian Soldiers”?
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January 21, 2010 8:54pm
pjje

The assumption that the West is christian is wilfully blind. The entire attraction of the modern world is the perception that it is based on rationality. That perception is mistaken to a limited extent only. There are technically competent people in the West who are committed christians. But for the majority, christianity is part of the tradition on which our society is based, not the entire foundation for it. At some stage, we have to accept that some aspect or other of islam will also become part of it. Just as buddhism is part of America’s tradition already. As a New Zealander, I have to recognise that British traditions including christianity and witchcraft figure larger in my mind than in some others. Obviously, others wil have different traditions. The problem for the umma is that there is very little chance of a significant majority within it becoming technically competent until they get out from underneath the mullahs’ dominance of their education. And the real evil of the proposed laws protecting religion is that they put the strength of the enlightenment at the service of religious of all stripes. Opposition to the biblical references on gunsights is a defence of the enlightenment.
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January 21, 2010 9:25pm
Paul G. Buchanan

Jack5: In response your two comments after mine. The difference is that, while individual soldiers and NGOs can use religious symbology as they wish, the liberal democratic state, and its military, make a point of their secularity. Standard issue weapons inlaid with Christian biblical references give the appearance of state-sanctioned religion when in fact that is not true, nor the reason why the NZDF (and I might add, the US) are fighting in a Muslim country like Afghanistan. Why give the undecided Muslims i the court of world opinion on the issue of the Afghan war more reason to believe that it is, in fact, a Crusade? From a military-practical standpoint, the inscriptions have the potential to be counter-productive for the reasons I outlined above.

As for the photo. I am having a very hard time comprehending why John Key would have confirmed that the photo captured Willy Apiata in action. To my mind that is almost as bad as the decision to show his face in the first place. Or to put it another way, how naive is Mr. Key? Why could he have simply responded with the standard “neither confirm or deny” mantra? It makes me wonder about his ability to understand what military service and exposure to hot lead is all about.

As for the photo itself (in response to Dirty Rat). That look is exactly what you want in a soldier–especially if you are the guy on his right.
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January 21, 2010 9:33pm
Paul G. Buchanan

Jack5: In response your two comments after mine. The difference is that, while individual soldiers and NGOs can use religious symbology as they wish, the liberal democratic state, and its military, make a point of their secularity. Standard issue weapons inlaid with Christian biblical references give the appearance of state-sanctioned religion when in fact that is not true, nor the reason why the NZDF (and I might add, the US) are fighting in a Muslim country like Afghanistan. Why give the undecided Muslims in the court of world opinion on the issue of the Afghan war more reason to believe that it is, in fact, a Crusade? From a military-practical standpoint, the inscriptions have the potential to be counter-productive for the reasons I outlined above.

As for the photo. I am having a very hard time comprehending why John Key would have confirmed that the photo captured Willy Apiata in action. To my mind that is almost as bad as the decision to show his face in the first place. Or to put it another way, how naive is Mr. Key? Why could he have simply responded with the standard “neither confirm or deny” mantra? It makes me wonder about his ability to understand what military service and exposure to hot lead is all about.

As for the photo itself (in response to Dirty Rat). That look is exactly what you want in a soldier–especially if you are the guy on his right.
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January 21, 2010 9:35pm
Jack5

Perhaps the scariest thing about a policy towards militant Islam that shows some signs of appeasement, or at least containment, rather than confrontation (as in the tip-toe removal of the Biblical references on the gunsights) is that it is likely to trigger a strong expansion of the extremist right.

EG see:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/7039572/Muslim-police-say-Islam-not-to-blame-for-terror-attacks.html
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January 21, 2010 9:38pm
Paul G. Buchanan

Sorry for the duplicate comment. I repeatedly hit the “delete” button on the second one but to no avail. DPF–could you check you edit function to see that all is working properly on your end? I will reboot and do likewise on my end.
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January 21, 2010 9:41pm
Jack5

Paul G. Buchanan, as usual gives a very reasoned response at 9.35 to my query about personal crosses and Bibles on soldiers. Yes, that’s a reasonable explanation Paul.

However, the use of the Red Cross as an emblem for ambulances and medics etc, would still be associated with the Government of the relevant army. Perhaps this symbol will be abandoned.

You have to agree wholeheartedly with Paul Buchanan and the other posters about the stupidity of publishing the SAS photographs, and the worsening of the damage today by comments and state television coverage. Whale seemed to suggest on his blog the NZ Herald journalists didn’t recognise the face. However, they could see the face was clear in the picture.

Perhaps the print journalists, misguided, felt they were somehow joining Whale’s unrelated crusade against court name suppression orders in NZ. Regardless, the Herald journos let our soldiers down badly.
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January 21, 2010 9:50pm
Redbaiter

” Sorry for the duplicate comment.”

That’s OK. At least, (at long last), you’ve apparently managed to grasp the idea of paragraphing.
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January 22, 2010 12:04am

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