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December 17, 2009 9:51am by David Farrar

General Debate 17 December 2009

Now that was a good party!

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Michaels

9:51am………………….. It was obviously a good party!!!!
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December 17, 2009 9:52am
hj

Battle for climate data approaches tipping point

”
Declare or defend?

A telling email episode in April 2007 shows how interactions between scientists and their critics spun out of control because the scientists mistook their critics for wreckers with no rights to data, while the critics took an aversion to scrutiny as a sign of fraud.

In the exchanges, Michael Mann of Penn State University in University Park, Phil Jones, the director of the UK’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU), and Kevin Trenberth of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, discuss freedom of information requests from Douglas Keenan, a financial statistician turned independent scientist, for the location of Chinese temperature readings used in a paper co-authored by Jones 17 years before. Mann advised: “This crowd of charlatans… look for one little thing they can say is wrong, and thus generalize that the science is entirely compromised… Best thing is to ignore them completely.” Trenberth disagreed: “I don’t think you can ignore it. The response should try to somehow label these guys [as] lazy and incompetent.”

Keenan won his FOI request and said it showed the data was flawed, because some of the stations had been moved by the Chinese scientists who ran them. He said Jones’s reluctance to share the data was evidence of fraud. Tom Wigley, director of the CRU when the original paper was published, emailed Jones saying it would have been easier to admit the data’s shortcomings. “Why, why, why did you not simply say this right at the start?” ”

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427393.600-battle-for-climate-data-approaches-tipping-point.html?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=mg20427393.600
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December 17, 2009 9:57am
Elijah Lineberry

Today is the anniversary of the insidious ‘General Order 11’ in 1862.

This is when the corrupt, alcoholic halfwit Ulysses Grant gave the order to expel Jews from Kentucky, Tennessee and Mississippi during the American Civil War.

Grant was overruled a few weeks later by President Lincoln but others (Adolf Hitler, all Arab states, John Tamihere, the Palestinian terrorist supporting Green party etc) have tried (with varying degrees of success) to copy Grant and unleash their virulent anti semitism.

Interesting how freedom does not apply to quite everyone 😉

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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December 17, 2009 10:03am
dime

Elijah – never heard that before. best i do some research so i know youre not takin the piss!

wonder how many of the expelled jewish guys had been slave owners at some stage. that would be kinda funny.
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December 17, 2009 10:05am
dime

is anyone here a member of STRATFOR??

Dime is! 12 month memberships are now only $99US. (they used to be $349). Well worth it.
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December 17, 2009 10:07am
hj

9:51am………………….. It was obviously a good party!!!!

or advertising works. The alcohol industry spends $200,000/ day on it.
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December 17, 2009 10:07am
hj

Deniergate: Turning the tables on climate sceptics
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18279-deniergate-turning-the-tables-on-climate-sceptics.html?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=dn18279
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December 17, 2009 10:14am
grumpyoldhori

Elijah Lineberry So when do you think Israel will hand over that sod who committed treason against NZ in helping Mossadd ?
Those two agents should have been charged with espionage and given twenty years for attempting to steal passports.
Anti semitism, yawn, the vast majority of Arabs are Semitic.
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December 17, 2009 10:15am
side show bob

What absolutely marvelous news coming out of that lefty toss fest in Carbonhargen. The bastards are running around like headless chickens. Yes !!!!!!!!!!!!, as I said weeks ago this will be a very expensive dog and pony show. Long may disorder and mayhem rein.

I also see poor Shonkey got dumped from a BBC TV interview but 747kevin who arrived with sweet piss all gets to spout shit about how the Aussies are going to see the errors of their ways, God these politicians are full of shit. The AGW crowd have reaped what they have sown. They falsified data, they crush all dissenters but worst of all they refuse to debate, the pricks are now enjoying the rewards.
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December 17, 2009 10:15am
side show bob

“That was a good party”, so it’s off to the early opener for a heart starter?
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December 17, 2009 10:23am
krazykiwi (formerly getstaffed)

Fantastic summer day in Wellington!
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December 17, 2009 10:38am
hj

“Urban economics guru Richard Florida recently set out to discover just how important physical aesthetics are when people choose a place to live (study PDF)

Sure money-making opportunities factor in, Florida insists, as well as social networking and services. But how much of our satisfaction with our neighbourhood can simply be attributed to living in a place we consider beautiful?

Apparently a lot. Florida’s team concluded that a beautiful setting is one of the most important predictors of people’s satisfaction with their community. The only stronger link identified in the study was current economic conditions. Good schools and the ability to meet people and make friends were also important indicators of community satisfaction, but not as positively correlated as residents’ perception that they lived in a beautiful place.”

http://spacingmontreal.ca/2009/12/07/just-a-beautiful-place/

The question is why is so much of our built environment so ugly (assuming you don’t have a pecuniary interest in it)?
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December 17, 2009 10:41am
krazykiwi (formerly getstaffed)

What absolutely marvelous news coming out of that lefty toss fest in Carbonhargen.

SSB – Yes it’s a zoo over there. Also, I wonder how many of the protestors are on government paid junkets to agitate their support
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December 17, 2009 10:44am
Murray

grumpy Clark didn’t feel the need for things like evidence when she plublicy called them spies. The fact that you trot out the same ex judica asserition gives her claim that we’re all too stupid to think for the ourselves some weight.

Inocent til proven guilty… or Helen Clark says so. And “hey lets all hate Jews, 600 million Arabs can’t be wrong. WTF?
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December 17, 2009 10:49am
lastmanstanding

ssb We dont have to worry. The idiots at Copenhagen cant agree on what month of the year it is let alone something as complex as this. they will release a yawn yawn communique that says SFA

The main thing for us to keep on pressuring and reminding the 99% of sheeple that its all about the money.

Sound bites Like

“Do you want to give a significant portion of your family income to so called poor countries each year via your government.”

Do you want big business to make super profits by conning you to buy their so called ‘greener than green products’

“Do you want to pay additional taxes that your government will waste on setting up committees and funding scientists for no good purpose”

And the list is long
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December 17, 2009 11:00am
Murray

I want a good steak cooked over an open bbq flame myself.

If the greenies, doomsayers and hysteria merchants ever reach an agreement we’re all screwed. Actually I feel pretty save now when you consider the chances of them every reaching any kind of consensus.

Fire up the barbie!
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December 17, 2009 11:12am
tom hunter

As goes California so goes the USA?

Well, if you think this then you’ll love the idea that as goes San Francisco so goes California.

Read the whole article by a San Francisco reporter. It’s almost beyond belief – and I say that as a former Chicagoan!!!
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December 17, 2009 11:41am
Manolo

Another triumph for our spineless leader: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3169905/Key-dumped-from-climate-change-debate-on-BBC

The best part of the article says:”The dumping will be an embarrassment for Key, after Climate Change Minister Nick Smith, earlier this week, said the Prime Minister’s inclusion was a “huge honour”.”

Truer than ever: lie with dogs and you’ll wake up with fleas.
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December 17, 2009 11:48am
simpleton

hj (132) Says:

December 17th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Deniergate: Turning the tables on climate sceptics

Never, Have I seem so many comments deleted.! ! I am sure there would have been very few of for bad language or even bad “ad homium”.
Yes maybe a repeat of some infomation or dear-say “misinformation”, but really as the very last quote says, maybe before it was deleted ! !

Censoring Replies
Tue Dec 15 12:00:29 GMT 2009 by Nick

I notice there is a cull of comments critical to the article. Most are well within the rules, but they are being pulled carte blanche.

Shame on NS

Perhahps a scoreing done by the moderator would have been better as one could figure their bias, but that would be acceptable relating to thedebate, them the reader would be far better informed and could decide for themselves.

Or is that the point, we are not to be informed but just must accept all the consequences and costs!!

I will endeavour to post this back at “New Scilence”
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December 17, 2009 11:52am
wreck1080

Well, in the last few days my 6 year olds nearly new bike was stolen, and our front fence was ‘tagged’.

Looks like the baddies are winning around here.

Good start to the xmas period eh!!
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December 17, 2009 11:56am
malcolm

Well, in the last few days my 6 year olds nearly new bike was stolen, and our front fence was ‘tagged’.

Sorry to hear that. I think NZ needs an updated version of the “Be A Tidy Kiwi” campaign of the 70’s (?).

We could call it the “Catch A Tagger And Give Them A Good Beating As the Police Won’t” campaign.
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December 17, 2009 12:07pm
simpleton

hj (132) Says:
December 17th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Deniergate: Turning the tables on climate sceptics

On Short Timelines To Plat Climate Trends
Wed Dec 16 19:26:13 GMT 2009 by BobK

I have broke the code! Any attempt to insert hard scientific data into this discussion (as have my last two responses to this post!), even with clean URL references to data and analysis, is immediately removed because of conflicting with the NS use policy! I understand now! ROTFL!!!
🙂
I laugh only because the situation is so sad.

At least in my brief sojourn thru their comments, a lot of commenters and often long time subsribers are far from happy how it is being run.
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December 17, 2009 12:17pm
Murray

Call the cops wreck, they’ll see you right.

And there’s the first Tui add of the season.
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December 17, 2009 12:17pm
wreck1080

Yeah, i’ll probably log a report with the cops just so that it appears in the crime stats.

Regarding tagging, probably lucky it does not happen more often specially since we have a perfect fence for tagging. More frequent are the early morning drunks walking home who vandalise property and litter/smash bottles along the way. Lately this behaviour has expanded from mostly weekends to the weekdays too. Maybe due to higher unemployment and school holidays?
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December 17, 2009 12:36pm
Tassman

The one man band who has decided for himself what should be good for NZ is dumped by the international media and replaced by the Australian PM….hahhahahahahahahhahhahhha……

I wasn’t going to say anything about this, but the last item made me hahahahhahahhahahahh

byebye Key and National!
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December 17, 2009 12:44pm
hj

simpleton (9) Says:

hj (132) Says:

“Deniergate: Turning the tables on climate sceptics

Never, Have I seem so many comments deleted.! ! I am sure there would have been very few of for bad language or even bad “ad homium”.”

What we have been seeing lately is the no AGW people standing on a box (to look larger).

New Scientist subscribers are science people if sales drop that will be the true indication.
What science mag do you recommend?
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December 17, 2009 12:49pm
Pita

“What absolutely marvelous news coming out of that lefty toss fest in Carbonhargen” I couldn’t agree more.

Rioting in the streets…throwing objects at (Mcaleer) whilst being interviewed…booing and jeering to silence critics…UN security guard called to eject journalist (Mcaleer).

I guess that’s to be expected when politics, truth and science collide.

Not a compelling picture to justify and support the cause of climate change.
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December 17, 2009 1:21pm
simpleton

Marketing Climate Change for hj

Well it was surprising how many comments did say that it used to be a good science magazine, but now it seems the jounalist and editoral politics are muddying the waters, and for the last couple years at that.

It would be interesting to see how the sales do go, though I do wonder if pandering for for a different customer may also work at increasing their sales. Would be very interesting to know their cancellations and new subscriptions ratios, as the marketing men maybe driving the system.

That lies at the nub of the problem, as money, politcs, manipulation, power, can even mildly corrupt.

What science magazine is a good question. I have no answer. I wish I knew.

Only thing is to question all, and widely,, and keep seeking the truth.

I am no expert in many things but it seems, when I find a small error in one thing and then start digging, often to my chagrin “a tin of worms opens up” There is often no equal and opposite answer either.

The debate ofen seems like having 2 back seat drivers telling a blind driver how to drive. Yes they are both desparate to which side of the road they should be.
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December 17, 2009 1:26pm
MikeNZ

more AGW facts

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/12/climategates_stubborn_facts.html
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December 17, 2009 1:48pm
big bruv

Wreck

If you put bad behaviour down to increased unemployment then you almost deserve to have your fence tagged.

Excusing crime because the criminal does not have a job is one of the oldest left wing cons in the book.
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December 17, 2009 1:53pm
scanner

Now that the Cacus Xmas party is over we may see DBF come out against the ETScam, and ShonKey.
Too much to hope perhaps.
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December 17, 2009 2:09pm
RightNow

scanner, are you drunk?
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December 17, 2009 2:19pm
Manolo

“Too much to hope perhaps.”

Hey, DPF is too loyal to the cause to do that. Hell will freeze over before you see him criticising Nick Smith’s ETS. 🙂

After all, he said it would be economic suicide for NZ to do that. The lemming mentality. The mind boggles.
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December 17, 2009 2:23pm
scanner

Should I be? What’s wrong with a little bit of hope?
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December 17, 2009 2:23pm
Say Goodbye to Hollywood

Leighton Smith talking to Christopher Monckton – Starts around the 13:15 mins point.

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/thisweek/hourrecs/Thu,%20Dec%2017%2010.00%20trn-newstalk-zb-akl.asf
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December 17, 2009 2:31pm
jaba

I have been reading Charles Chavel daily posts (on Redalert) from the madness that is this talkfest .. to those who may know the guy, is he as pompus as he seems or am I wrong?
I kmow he is in opposition and it’s his job to oppose but shit, what does he expect Groser, Smith and Key to actually achieve when battling with 35,000 others. He seems to be with the butler look a like, Kennedy Graham (speaking of pompus) and they both suggest they have the answers to glabal warming .. TUI
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December 17, 2009 2:37pm
wreck1080

Big bruv , tell me where I said that crime can be excused because of being unemployed? Plainly I never said any such thing, and you are being deceitful.

And there is most certainly a correlation between ‘bad behaviour’ and unemployment. Visit high unemployment neighbourhoods and you will see more tagging/vandalism. Criminals without jobs have more time on their hands.
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December 17, 2009 2:41pm
stephen

The Government will target potential criminals from the womb

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3171985/New-approach-for-combating-crime

Something not quite right about that sentence lol
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December 17, 2009 2:48pm
krazykiwi (formerly getstaffed)

I recommend spending 20mins over at SPPI Blog for a Copenhgen roundup that you won’t find in the MSM.

Recent posts include:-

● Police in a state. [The mild Danish police and the UN thugs]
● Russia affected by Climategate. [Data ‘adjustments’ make the Ruskies see red.]
● 7 Basic Science Principles.
● Who will be Poet Laureate, then? [This is great, Algore has become a poet!]
● Ship of Lies 3: Preposterous Pachauri [IPCC railway engineer leader looses his passion]
● Ship of Lies 2: The Al Gore Fibfest continues [Even the warmists are getting embarrassed by him now]
● Ship of Lies 1 [Algore’s tame scientist is trotted out for some porkies]
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December 17, 2009 2:50pm
simpleton

Criminals without jobs have more time on their hands.

Yeah Right Time for taggin/vandalism etc.. Money for drinking etc..

Time for learning (free libraries), cleaning, painting, gardening, cooking, parenting, teacher’s aid, assisting elderly, helping busy parents etc. all opens up knowledge and experience to not only what you know but who you know. There may no tangible rewardThat all takes time.

Self discipline, self motivation, self responsibility/accountability, that builds to honesty and trustworthyness that opens the doors to the future, takes time in small ways that build to bigger ways and into life itself.

Are we looking for government programmes? How do we make that change inside a person is the big question, self-esteem can not be a programme, and just throwing money at things often makes things worse.
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December 17, 2009 3:09pm
Say Goodbye to Hollywood

I’m not sure if this has been posted before but it’s an interesting read from Prof Richard Lindzen of MIT – The Climate Science Isn’t Settled

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703939404574567423917025400.html#articleTabs%3Darticle
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December 17, 2009 3:25pm
Komata

Ah but Simpleton

You’ve forgotten the modern mantra sir – ‘NO -One takes any responsibility for anything’ cos we’re all good friends, all equal (especially if we’re Maori) and as for motivation?

Can’t have that it makes one person look and seem BETTER than another and that will never do!! Mediocrity rules, dumbness is sooooo cool and we must never be better than anyone else and, above all, we must not be different (unless of course we are homosexual or lesbian and then we have to hug them soo much to make the little dears fee accepted -and we’ll even wear pink – just to help them feel ‘nice’ and be brave).

Oh, and BTW. If doing anything takes longer than 10 minutes our poor little minds can’t handle it – we’ve only got that much of an attention-span cos of TV – thats what teaches us responsibility. . (cue Tui- moment) and if its on the telee it must be true and right.

The consequences of 12 or more years of socialism in schools is now upon us. Marvellous ‘aint it?
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December 17, 2009 3:41pm
Pete George

Yep SGtH, that’s a good read, to be expected from Lindzen, making good points clearly. He acknowledges much of ther generally accepted science and targets the real area of concern. Schmidt agrees with the title (any scientist would have to) but not with the content. And I’m sure it is far to moderate for a few of the regulars here. But this sort of information is refreshing amongst all the overwrought overwrote hubris that flies around.
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December 17, 2009 3:47pm
hj

“One element of terrorist tradecraft that was evident in the indictment and the Oct. 11 criminal complaint is Headley’s careful use of language and of multiple methods of communications, including the use of cell phones and using long-distance calling cards, e-mail communication (using a variety of accounts) and face-to-face briefings. For the most sensitive communications and planning activities, Headley traveled to Pakistan to meet in person with LeT and HUJI leaders, a very secure way to communicate. He also had numerous phone and e-mail conversations in which he discussed the status of his work or planned reconnaissance trips. During such conversations, Headley would use terms to disguise the true objective of his work. For example, when referring to attack plans, Headley and his alleged co-conspirators reportedly called them “investment plans” or “business plans,” and when discussing the plot against Jyllands-Posten, the newspaper that published the Mohammed cartoons, Headley and his co-conspirators referred to it as the “Mickey Mouse Project,” the “MMP” or “the Northern Project.””
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20091216_tactical_implications_headley_case?utm_source=SWeekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=091216&utm_content=readmore
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December 17, 2009 3:53pm
simpleton

I was having a nice dream thanks:-

Komata (191) Says:
December 17th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

Guess I should go back to sleep and change my dream, as my pockets are rifled thru, walls are painted/marked haphazardly, booze driving and unpaid fines are OK. For any criminal court cases it is only a one in 300 chance of going to jail if the case even goes to court, instead of one in 30 chance.

For me it would be massive costs and fines then confication of any assests.
Why am I blacked mailed ?

Once I am passed that point, “Life would be good”, No reponsibilities to any one!!! no rates to pay, no tax to pay, no insurance, collect the dole as no work once I am untrustworthy and irrresponsible. Just scrounge and take, nay demand my rights.

After all, why work so hard to live like them in the sun . Well admittedly I would have to have a major change of conscience. But my worries, stresses, frustrations, burnout will become history.

The socialismgoes back more than 12 years, but it did become unweldy from 1984 as the country faced bankruptcy and nearly again in 1990 but has settled in pretty well now.

Admittedly this is a rant, and I guess as a country we may keep descending into the morass. Ocassionally I do get glimpses of change or better put, seeing a remmant, that may survilve to a better time, and will continue do what I can to foster what I mentioned in my earlier post..

Life is not too bad yet.
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December 17, 2009 7:14pm
simpleton

Sorry
Dam thing would not let me edit to adjust qotes . Why? Trialling now

Komata (191) Says:
December 17th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

Test
(Success and now allows me to edit What’s the difference) Oh well live and learn
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December 17, 2009 7:20pm
Dirty Rat

dime (1653) Says:

December 17th, 2009 at 10:07 am
is anyone here a member of STRATFOR??

Dime is! 12 month memberships are now only $99US. (they used to be $349). Well worth it.

Vote: 3 0

Dimebag, try going out and meeting people instead of hooking up on gay dating websites
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December 17, 2009 7:24pm
Viking2

http://player.video.news.com.au/couriermail/#S_xOUbhYxhs7Q9GNL1DKE0dsBq6_Q5Dr

NZ flasher says she’s learnt her lesson
A New Zealand woman who flashed her breasts at passing cars, says she’s learnt her lesson.

We need more of this.
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December 17, 2009 7:44pm
Tauhei Notts

It is General Debate so I can throw this in.
Have any other bloggers been swamped with wine company advertising over the past four weeks. It comes at my e mail like a flock of sparrows. Now esteemed places like Matariki and Cloudy Bay are into telephone canvassing.
I get the impression that the local wine industry is in the pooh. This sort of marketing would be unheard of several years ago.
The missus tells me that wine prices at the supermarket have dropped to unusually good prices. But my broker keeps recommending Delegats; I would love to read what other bloggers have to say on this subject.
Like a depressed homosexual, I am very confused. After all, who can be gay and depressed at the same time.
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December 17, 2009 8:10pm
MikeNZ

I didn’t know the prices were so low
Let’s all pray they go lower 🙂
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December 17, 2009 8:40pm
MikeNZ

Viking
Its only because she got caught.
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December 17, 2009 8:41pm
krazykiwi (formerly getstaffed)

Pachauri, IPCC’s generalissimo, a former railway engineer and an increasingly wealthy green investor is starting to loose steam in his presentations. Lord Monckton reports on Pachauri’s eye opening Copenhagen presentation

:
Would he use the bogus graph in his lecture? I had seen him do so when he received an honorary doctorate from the University of New South Wales. I watched and waited.

Sure enough, he used the bogus graph. I decided to wait until he had finished, and ask a question then.

Pachauri then produced the now wearisome list of lies, fibs, fabrications and exaggerations that comprise the entire case for alarm about “global warming”. He delivered it in a tired, unenthusiastic voice, knowing that a growing majority of the world’s peoples – particularly in those countries where comment is free – no longer believe a word the IPCC says.

They are right not to believe. Science is not a belief system. But here is what Pachauri invited the audience in Copenhagen to believe…

[[.. continues ..]]
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December 17, 2009 9:21pm
krazykiwi (formerly getstaffed)

Tauhei Notts – Yes I have! Including email newsletters that I’ve opted out of. If I purchased one case for every piece of advertsing in the last month we’d no longer have use of our spare room.
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December 17, 2009 9:23pm
Jack5

Brain picker: Does anyone recall whether Jeff Wilson, who played for NZ in both cricket and rugby, played in a cricket test?

The NZ Herald today in a story about grand old Eric Tindill who has just turned 99, says Tindill is believed to be the only sportsman to have played tests for New Zealand in both rugby and cricket.

Link:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10616090
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December 17, 2009 9:50pm
Jack5

Further on Jeff Wilson…

Brian McKechnie also played for NZ in both rugby and cricket, but perhaps he didn’t play in a cricket test. Any cricket buffs up with the play on this?
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December 17, 2009 9:55pm
krazykiwi (formerly getstaffed)

Jack5 – Looks like ODI’s only, no tests. [Grimaces at posting Wikipedia link!]
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December 17, 2009 10:08pm
F E Smith

Completely randomly, the Law Society’s weekly email arrived in my inbox today and had a couple of interesting points:

“Chief Judge sets record straight on Manukau Court District Court Chief Judge Russell Johnson has released a media statement saying that, far from being dysfunctional, the Manukau District Court is ‘performing with distinction’ and ‘has done a magnificent job’. He also cites Ministry of Justice statistics attesting to the court’s ‘significant lift in productivity’ over the last three years, and credits lawyers for their contribution to this success.”

Which is interesting, but then there is this:

“Rotorua Coroner Wallace Bain is calling for a 24-hour legal service to be made available to prisoners held in custody after a man hanged himself in police cells when he was unable to contact a lawyer.”

Which is even more interesting because the Rotorua Coroner wants it to be funded by legal aid so the prisoner can reach a legal aid lawyer! Do they think we are completely stupid or something?

Edit: Then I notice this:

“The Auditor-General tabled a paper in Parliament on 16 December reporting on the Ministry’s performance in helping district and high courts deal with their increasing workloads.”

But hold on, if the courts workload was increasing then wouldn’t legal aid (crime being the biggest factor in the increase) be likely to go up? No, of course not, it is instead the legal aid lawyers rorting the system. Silly me.
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December 17, 2009 11:20pm
Luc Hansen

You are in the right (accidental pun) place for such a complaint, F. E. Smith.

Here, we all know lawyers rort the system, just as we also know that the last thing teachers want to do is teach.

I guess Magaret Bazely is as popular with the Law Society as Anne Tolley is with the NZEI.
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December 18, 2009 12:47am

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Health Target 5 – elective treatments
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