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December 12, 2009 8:11am by David Farrar

General Debate 12 December 2009

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billyborker

AS *I* said, reid, this is no proof of anything, other than Man’s adaptive ability to see patterns.

And, as I have already pointed out, similar “analyses” have been done on other texts, such as Shakespeare and Homer. Does that prove divinity or god?

Perhaps you could try answering the questions about Jesus’ lack of scientific knowledge, the mismatched genealogies or the need to prove Jesus’ ancestry back to David IF god was the father.

But I am sure each of these are far too hard for you and you would prefer to keep chasing Alice down rabbit holes.
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December 12, 2009 5:53pm
Yvette

Reid : I asked –

“#21. Three women are mentioned-Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth. The number of Greek letters in these three names is 14, or 7 x 2.” is an example. But, when a male line of decent is switched to three women [and a forth unnamed, who would be Bathsheba] then back to men again, the sevens may be very clever but what about what the words themselves say?

and
“There are words in the passage just described [the first 17 verses of the New Testament, The Gospel of Matthew] that occur nowhere else in the New Testament. They occur 42 times (7 x 6) and have 126 letters (7 x 18).”
http://www.direct.ca/trinity/part1.html

So does this apply to Paul’s epistles, which were written one assumes before he died, so they come before the rest of the New Testament, and Mark is generally accepted as being written before Matthew and Luke, since both copy parts of Mark?
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December 12, 2009 5:59pm
reid

“AS *I* said, reid, this is no proof of anything, other than Man’s adaptive ability to see patterns.”

So pray tell, billy. Tell us your actuarial calculations of the chances of this pattern happening by chance and whether the result of that, means that it’s a phenomena worth exploring, or not, and why?
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December 12, 2009 6:05pm
Hurf Durf

So these arsehole leftists are promoting a One-Child Policy now, even though Western countries already have a negative population imbalance concerning births to deaths. And don’t even think they’ll apply this “policy” to the Third World. Proof, as if any more is needed, about the ulterior motives of the environmentalists: the destruction of the West.
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December 12, 2009 6:07pm
reid

“So does this apply to Paul’s epistles, which were written one assumes before he died, so they come before the rest of the New Testament, and Mark is generally accepted as being written before Matthew and Luke, since both copy parts of Mark?”

Er, I’m still struggling to understand your specific question, Yvette.
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December 12, 2009 6:09pm
reid

Reid, can you give a single paragraph synopsis of the work by Ivan Panin and what it proves?

It’s a very short letter, Malcolm and therefore no, I won’t give you a synopsis.

Perhaps you missed the significance of what I said in the original post:

“As a Christian I’m not interested in using his calculations to justify my position, but it’s a mathematical side-issue that people like yourself might find dry enough to engage yourself in analysing and attempting to disprove – if you can. Look forward to your response in a few months…”

See, I don’t care whether you or anyone else wants to look into it or not or whether you don’t. I don’t care about justifying it or not.

It’s merely an interesting observation of the mathematical nature of biblical construction. You can draw your own conclusions from that. Now if you want to, you can simply ignore the information and not even look at it – I don’t care. If you want to, you can look at the information and think to yourself, this can’t possibly be true – I don’t care. If you want to, you could look at the information and conclude there is something in this and I need to look further – I don’t care, but if you do take this course, I rejoice that you may find Eternal Truth and save your own self.

Whichever course you take, I don’t care, except insofaras I’ve laid the information before you, so consume it as you like.
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December 12, 2009 6:19pm
Pete George

Reid, what is your take on Steve McIntyre apparently being found out on his email critique, it looks like he has either been sloppy or devious, in either case wrong.

Thus, once again, McIntyre’s speculations are shown to be utterly without foundation.
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December 12, 2009 6:24pm
reid

Pete, aren’t you taking some heat on that on the AGW thread today?

How’s about sticking to our knitting shall we?
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December 12, 2009 6:34pm
Hurf Durf

I love it. The same British “progressives” who whined about attacks on the Sun God’s background last year are doing the same thing to David Cameron in the UK. It’s not working, of course, which is pretty much Labour’s style. “No war but class war,” tossers. This is Old Labour in its purest form: red to the core.
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December 12, 2009 6:40pm
Pete George

That was yesterdays Reid, seems to have been left behind. Up to you on whether you want to comment. You’re one who seems to be prepared to look and discuss.
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December 12, 2009 6:48pm
philu

so..reid..in summary..

you don’t feel the need to read this ‘mathematical-proof’..

..’cos you are a ‘believer’..

so you don’t ‘need’ it/to..

(could that be called a straw-man-defence..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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December 12, 2009 7:01pm
reid

Pete I am [prepared look and discuss], however the whole AGW email debate isn’t something I’ve been following and I fear it’s progressed too far for me to catch up and add something meaningful to the collective knowledge, so if you don’t mind, I’ll keep my silence on that issue.
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December 12, 2009 7:03pm
reid

phil, the possibility that a religious artefact such as the Bible is mathematically interesting says nothing about its truth or falsity to a believer.

I’m surprised you’re fascinated by the potential confluence and I hope you explore it further.

That’s about it, really.
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December 12, 2009 7:11pm
Yvette

reid –
Despite the amazing 7’s maths [Matthew 1:1-17], the line of decent is through males and then inexplicably names three females [there are 4], then goes back to males. Is that the way descent was traced, or is the line here somewhat unconventional, despite the clever math?
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December 12, 2009 7:16pm
Viking2

China rejects draft climate deal

* Dennis Shanahan, Political editor
* From: The Australian
* December 12, 2009 12:00AM

Penny Wong

Penny Wong poses in front of a large globe in Copenhagen during the fourth day of the climate change conference yesterday. Source: Getty Images

CHINA has accused the developed world of retreating from its undertakings to cut greenhouse gas emissions, rejected a proposal at the Copenhagen conference to reduce financial help to China and described the draft deal Kevin Rudd worked on as creating “a lot of problems”.

The Chinese have accused the developed world of abandoning the Kyoto Protocol and pressuring the developing nations to cut emissions without proper compensation for the “luxury emissions” the West has put out for the past century.
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December 12, 2009 7:25pm
nickb

Vettori gets 100!

What a legend he is, best allrounder in NZ history by far IMO
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December 12, 2009 7:36pm
Pete George

Great support from McCullum too, and the top order not so bad this time either, especially McIntosh setting things up, no ducks and only one in single figures. That’s good comparatively.
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December 12, 2009 7:39pm
Puzzled in Ekatahuna

Biblical sevens
The question is: could one person do it, let alone several in different places?

The fact that Dr Pavin, who twigged to this in 1890, took a further 50 years and generated over 43,000 detailed, hand-penned pages of analysis, just to establish evidence of the patterns, would suggest actually writing texts to met all the different matches is inconceivable.
Write something, calculate whether it matched all parameters and rewrite and check again?

” Just to understand how unique these properties are try to design a genealogy-even from fiction that meets the following criteria:  
1) The Number of words must be divisible by 7 evenly (In each of these constraints, it is assumed that the divisions are without remainders.)  
2)The number of letters must also be divisible by 7.  
3)The number of vowels and the number of consonants must be divisible by 7.  
4)The number of words that begin with a vowel must be divisible by 7.
 5)The number of words that begin with a consonant must be divisible by 7.  
6)The number of words that occur more than once must be divisible by 7.
 7)The number of words that occur in more than one form must be divisible by 7.  
8)The number of words that occur in only one form shall be divisible by 7.  
9)The number of nouns shall be divisible by 7.  
10)Only 7 words shall not be nouns.  
11)The number of names in the genealogy shall be divisible by 7.  
12)Only 7 other kinds of nouns are permitted.  
13)The number of male names shall be divisible by 7.  
14)The number of generations shall be 21, also divisible by 7. ”

http://www.direct.ca/trinity/part1.html
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December 12, 2009 7:46pm
big bruv

nickb

“What a legend he is, best allrounder in NZ history by far IMO”

I will excuse that comment based on your youth.

I think there might be a couple of other blokes who have greater claim to that title.
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December 12, 2009 7:50pm
Pete George

Hadlee
86 matches
3124 runs avg 27.16
431 wickets avg 22.29

Vettori
96 matches
3645 runs avg 29.87
311 wickets avg 33.41

On stats I’d put Hadlee slightly ahead based on his bowling, but Vettori’s captainship must figure in it too.
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December 12, 2009 8:16pm
big bruv

Pete

Stats only tell you so much, name me a time when world cricket has been this weak when it comes to top class bowlers?

The fact that our top order cannot score runs in the current climate just highlights how piss poor we actually are.

Over all the standard of world cricket is not high, certainly nowhere near the quality of the 80’s and 90’s.

Vettori is (IMHO) third at best on any NZ allrounder list.
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December 12, 2009 8:23pm
Tauhei Notts

One cricket writer wrote in about 1990;
“Will there be life after Hadlee?”
For many years there wasn’t. Then Vettori blossomed.
I note that the Pakistan odds lengthened from $9 to $11 in the final hour of play today.
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December 12, 2009 8:24pm
side show bob

BillyB, I must admit to misunderstanding you. I believe you claim to be an atheist, personally I’m fine with that but why do you spend so much energy telling everyone else we are wrong. For shit sake man if you are so confident in your assessment of religion and God why do you feel that you need to justify your stand. I’m happy to believe in God I suspect that in the deep recesses of your mind you are not yet certain, trust me Billy God does exist and he has your number otherwise you wouldn’t bother.
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December 12, 2009 8:36pm
Hurf Durf

Leftist thugs shut down something that doesn’t accede to their belief system, as usual. Fuck Copenhagen, fuck AGW, fuck the left.
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December 12, 2009 8:59pm
Banana Llama

It’s okay Hurf those fanatics wont be able to keep the peace and will resort to violence to impose their belief system on others, counter revolution will be a bitch.
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December 12, 2009 9:31pm
billyborker

SSB, the topic was raised by others, not me. Am I not permitted to respond? And trust ME bob, there ain’t no god, I have no number for him to have and life is great away from the demon haunted world in which you live.
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December 12, 2009 10:03pm
philu

i just warched some vid of that lord monckton..

what a fat/arrogant/odious/slimy tory of the first order he is…

(marty feldman eyes and all..).

ew..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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December 12, 2009 10:12pm
Jack5

Starboard at 8.17am, the first post in this thread, said

…Ngati Porou has been offered one of the biggest Treaty of Waitangi settlement packages, comprising $110 million in cash plus assets including forestry, carbon credits, 5869ha of conservation…

Given that Ngati Porou were the British colonialists’ major ally in wars with other tribes, shouldn’t Bro Key ask Ngati Porou to use some of their settlement offer to help meet claims from these other tribes?
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December 12, 2009 10:24pm
side show bob

Hi billy, no I don’t trust you so I’ll take my chances. Yes of course you should respond and good on you. The only thing I can say in my defense is that I have no wish to convince you that there is a God. You seem to spend an inordinate amount of time telling us why there is no God. WHY?? It seems to me that you are trying to convince yourself that you are right, Buzzzzzz billy you are wrong.

Phool, Lord Monckton rules you slimy piece of socialist shit.
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December 12, 2009 10:50pm
philu

oh yeah..!..moncton is a real class act..

the vid i saw showed him calling young jewish protestors ‘hitler youth’..repeatedly..

..and then giveing his bullshit denialist ;scientific’-spiel..

(qualified as a journalist..and a student of ‘the classics’..as he is..eh..?..)

that you would identify with this sneering piece of shit..bloody-hands-bob..

really dosen’t come as much of a surprise..eh..?

and this tub of class-bile is the front-man/spokesperson for the deniers..eh..?

what a sad/sick/fucken joke you all are..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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December 12, 2009 10:59pm
malcolm

Reid, yeah I did kind of misunderstand you re Ivan Panin. I see now that it was an aside.

I’ve read the letter and it seems interesting. As usual though the internet kind of spoils these things. There’s a lot of stuff showing how Panin had to use different versions of the Greek texts and in some cases modify them to make the patterns fit.

Interesting anyway. And 7 is a prime number and those things pop up in unexpected ways.

cheers

Malcolm
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December 12, 2009 11:05pm
philu

and of course..the funny thing is ..bloody-hands-bob..

that should monckton meet you..

he would think you were nothing more than a peasant..eh..?

do you yearn to tug the forelock..?

do you..?..bloody-hands-bob..?

know your ‘place’..do you..?

was ‘Lord Monckton rules’ a freudian slip there..?

..bloody-hands-bob..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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December 12, 2009 11:08pm
malcolm

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/mccormack.html
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December 12, 2009 11:09pm
side show bob

Gee phool why do you work yourself up so much. Does monckton upset you so because he challenges you universe?. Does not Al Bore sneer at those the call him out?. Does not the kangaroo court in Carbonhargen not sneer at those that question them. Please say no, let me call you out phool.
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December 12, 2009 11:12pm
philu

i am laughing..

for months you knuckledraggers have been banging on about monckton..

and in the flesh..

he is this pompouus/arrogant/ignorant colonel-blimp caricature..

..a total figure of fun..

(what’s not to laugh at..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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December 12, 2009 11:18pm
side show bob

Cool phool if monckton thinks I’m a peasant I’ll get over it. “Do you yearn the tug of the forelock”……I’m already under the forelock, just ask the bank. I’m proud to be a peasant and one day I might even save your sorry arse.
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December 12, 2009 11:26pm
side show bob

Why do you lefties work yourselves up so much on pompous/arrogant/ ignorant people. God you never pick on the Dear one.
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December 12, 2009 11:38pm
Fletch

Got this in my inbox –

Jim Salinger will be on RadioLive tomorrow Sunday after 11am with Graham Hill.

He will be taking calls. The number to call is on 0800 723465.
Spread the word, get people to call and ask him awkward questions!

Yeh, good idea.
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December 13, 2009 12:01am
simpleton

Billions $ in green Fraud

Police claim EU carbon credit fraud has topped €5bn
Europol estimates carbon credit VAT fraud carried out by organised criminals could have cost EU billions in lost tax revenue

BusinessGreen.com Staff, BusinessGreen, 11 Dec 2009
The European police agency Europol has today revealed that the fraudulent trade in carbon credits that affected a number of countries over the past few months is far more widespread than previously thought and could have cost EU taxpayers up to €5bn in lost revenue over the past 18 months.

The agency said in a statement that it believed that in some countries up to 90 per cent of the trading of EU emissions allowances (EUAs) was subject to fraudulent activity.

EUA’s which are traded under the EU emission trading scheme have been involved in so-called carousel fraud whereby fraudsters sell carbon credits and collect the accompanying VAT, but then disappear before the money is handed over to the tax man.

Europol said that suspicions of carousel fraud, so named because the fraudster can often buy back credits and then repeat the practice several times over, first arose in late 2008.

Market volumes then peaked in the summer, at which point France, the Netherlands and the UK changed their VAT rules to crack down on the practice. Europol said that after the reforms the market volume in each country fell by up to 90 per cent, indicating that the problem was extremely widespread.

Spain and Denmark have subsequently introduced similar rules that ensure VAT is collected from the purchaser, rather than the organisation buying the credits.

Europol said that it was now working with Belgium, Denmark, France, the Netherlands, Spain and the United Kingdom to set up a specific project to collect and analyse information in order to identify and disrupt the organised criminal structures that are believed to be behind these fraud schemes.

“These criminal activities endanger the credibility of the European Union Emission Trading System and lead to the loss of significant tax revenue for governments,” said Europol director Rob Wainwright. “Europol is using its expertise and information capabilities to help target the organised crime groups involved.”

The agency added that there were reasons to believe that fraudsters might soon migrate towards the gas and electricity branches of the energy sector.

Just how much will it cost small business and even big business and the government in monitoring and controlling this enforced activity. Just ask the small investor how much he has lost in New Zealand.
How can you put a price on carbon credits when there are billions of $ in fraud?
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December 13, 2009 1:54am
Gulag

Aspiring Auckland supercity mayor Williams the wierdo
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/news/3155230/Mayors-rude-texts-target-John-Key
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December 13, 2009 10:00am
MT_Tinman

big bruv (5051) Says:
December 12th, 2009 at 8:23 pm

Pete

Stats only tell you so much, name me a time when world cricket has been this weak when it comes to top class bowlers?

The fact that our top order cannot score runs in the current climate just highlights how piss poor we actually are.

Over all the standard of world cricket is not high, certainly nowhere near the quality of the 80’s and 90’s.

Vettori is (IMHO) third at best on any NZ allrounder list.

I have watched the odd game of cricket in my time and started counting the number of all-rounders I’ve seen who were better than the current cancer.

Ran out of fingers rather quickly.
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December 13, 2009 11:26am
dime

why is anyone even responding to fuckwit borker? he had a go at someones kids ffs.

he shouldnt even be on here.
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December 13, 2009 11:48am
billyborker

Hey dime, you got issues, take it outside and we’ll see who tha Man is.

And that other shit fight was started by the bitch, not by me. Fucking retard.
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December 13, 2009 12:01pm
Redbaiter

“why is anyone even responding to fuckwit borker?”

Agree. Shallow one dimensional troll. Some people must have fuck all to do.
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December 13, 2009 12:06pm
billyborker

You left out the knuckle dragging bit red, you’re slipping.
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December 13, 2009 12:10pm
Johnboy

I see we are at the cutting edge of rational debate here.

Where the fuck is general debate 13th?

Must have been a good party last night! 🙂
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December 13, 2009 12:13pm
side show bob

Did anyone see the protests in Carbonhargen? Amazing, I never realised you could get so many drongos in one city.
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December 13, 2009 12:25pm
dime

BAHAHAHA borker thinks he’s tough. funny.

you should be careful who you call out over the net borker 😉

ya mean little leftist.
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December 13, 2009 5:34pm
Angus

Borker is an angry late 50’s expat Australian who lost his Christian faith and deeply regrets he couldn’t fly back to Australia in time to euthanize his dying father. Tragic indeed, but he needs to vent it out every weekend – he adopts the MyNameIsjack handle when at work during the week.
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December 13, 2009 8:47pm
philu

heh..!

the health-message that junk food will make you depressed..

gets a massive thumbs-down..

(i wonder if they are all junk food addicts..?.and depressed..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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December 13, 2009 9:18pm

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