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November 7, 2009 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 7 November 2009

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General Debate

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reid

“It is ridiculous to claim that the religious leaders of Christ’s time would have plotted his death because he undermined the function of the moneychangers.”

Er, Yvette, I wasn’t making that claim, merely making a side-comment around my central point.
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November 7, 2009 4:10pm
Steve

Where is the resident magpie today?
Quardle Oodle Ardle one
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November 7, 2009 4:12pm
Steve

It’s too quiet, he’s gotta be up to some mischief
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November 7, 2009 4:14pm
reid

So Joris the old commie wants to excuse the brown motherfucker?

Human Rights Act, section 61:

Racial disharmony
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(a) To publish or distribute written matter which is threatening, abusive, or insulting, or to broadcast by means of radio or television words which are threatening, abusive, or insulting; or
(b) To use in any public place as defined in section 2(1) of the Summary Offences Act 1981, or within the hearing of persons in any such public place, or at any meeting to which the public are invited or have access, words which are threatening, abusive, or insulting; or
(c) To use in any place words which are threatening, abusive, or insulting if the person using the words knew or ought to have known that the words were reasonably likely to be published in a newspaper, magazine, or periodical or broadcast by means of radio or television,—
being matter or words likely to excite hostility against or bring into contempt any group of persons in or who may be coming to New Zealand on the ground of the colour, race, or ethnic or national origins of that group of persons.

Luckily, I can use the words brown motherfucker to my heart’s content, now I know I’ve got freedom of expression…
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November 7, 2009 4:15pm
nickb

Reid, come on, don’t be silly.
The Human Rights Act only applies to whites.
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November 7, 2009 4:19pm
Brian Smaller

US in shock as violence of war hits at home

He hadn’t even been deployed. Still, never let the facts get in the way of a good headline.

Yes he had. The jihad is global.
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November 7, 2009 4:19pm
Jack5

Grumpy at 2.44: “…The Turks must be good, the Anzacs came second against them….”

Only at Gallipoli, Grumpy. The Anzac Mounted Division played a big part in the heavy dusting up of the Turks in Palestine, Gaza, and northwards.

The Turks also were well beaten in Arabia and Iraq, etc. At Gallipoli the Turks had a lot of strategic and tactical help from the Germans, and seaborne invasion, always difficult, was a big challenge then without landing craft and ground attack aircraft to soften up the defences, then coming in on rowed boats to beaches under cliffs.

I think the Turks performed well in Korea, and were the eastern anchor of NATO in the Cold War, but they have their own problems. Up to 30 per cent of the people are Kurds or other minorities, and industrialisation and rising living standards will be weakening resolve to die for the Government.

If you judge troops only by their enemies’ success, you would also have to put the Anzacs second to the German airborne troops who opposed the Anzacs in Crete and again at Cassino, but those battle results don’t tell the whole story.
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November 7, 2009 4:26pm
Jack5

Re NickB at 3.05 on Joris de Bres.

Red Boris has long been a joke. But picking on schoolkids skylarking in a museum, albeit offensively, while only tisk-tisking Hone Harawira proves the whole human rights legislation is a crock. As does the overreaction to the Lincoln students partying as dress-up Nazis.
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November 7, 2009 4:39pm
Hurf Durf

There’s nothing like Trevor Loudon picking apart the fifth columnists in our institutions.

NZ Race Relations Conciliator and Human Rights Commission official, Joris de Bres has a long history of socialist activism.

While studying German at Auckland University (1965-68) de Bres became active in the Student Christian Movement. Like many marxist groups, the SCM hid it’s real emphasis behind an innocuous name. Far from being a bunch of clean cut spiritual seekers, the SCM was and is a “Christian-Marxist” organisation

Joris de Bres saved few souls in the SCM, but in his own words “I took part in protests against the Vietnam War, the SIS, the nuclear arms race and nuclear power, racism and Apartheid.”

In 1969 de Bres studied at the Free University of West Berlin, a major centre of socialist activism.

“I studied Marx, Engels and Lenin, Marcuse, Rosa Luxemburg, Frantz Fanon, and modern German writers of the revolutionary left. Students saw their hope for revolutionary change in an alliance with the working classes, through radicalised trade unions. They had nearly pulled it off in Paris in 1968.”

After Berlin, de Bres moved to post graduate studies at Oxford University. He eventually dropped out, perhaps because marching with striking “dusties”, picketing with striking power workers and “translating left wing books for New Left Books, Pluto Press, and Penguin” distracted him from his studies.

In February 1972 de Bres and Geoff Bertram attended the “World Assembly for Peace and Independence of the Indo Chinese People” held in Paris. Joris de Bres represented the Wellington Committee On Vietnam, a mainly Maoist organisation. The Conference was however organised by the Soviet front, World Peace Council.
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November 7, 2009 4:41pm
reid

Commissioner Joris de Bres says unlike students wearing Nazi uniforms or schoolboys bowing to a swastika Mr Harawira’s comments are not a breach of the Human Rights Act, because he is entitled to freedom of expression. More than 20 complaints have been made with the Race Relations Commission about the email and Mr de Bres says each one will be looked at individually….

Joris de Bres
Human Rights Commission
Wellington

7 Nov 09

Dear Brown Motherfucker,

I am writing to complain about the email sent by that other brown motherfucker which called NZ Europeans White motherfuckers and alleging we raped land and ripped off brown motherfuckers and that all of us are full of puritanical bullshit.

I find this disturbing and offensive expecially in light of S61(c) and ask that you immediately investigate that brown motherfucker because I think he’s a real c**t.

While acknowledging that some white motherfuckers are full of puritanical bullshit I point out this phenomena is strictly confined to Labour/Green voters who are self-righteous twats and prats as well and I ask you also to make that brown motherfucker issue a public clarification so as to clear up this appalling and hurtful allegation.

Yours sincerely,
Reid
White motherfucker
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November 7, 2009 4:45pm
starboard

Go fuck yourself de bres…you are a waste of money and a waste of space…John Key…stop smiling..get off your fucken arse..and sort this shit out.
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November 7, 2009 5:21pm
nickb

Agreed starboard.
What fucks me off is the thousands of kiwis struggling with bills, small business owners struggling with ACC and tax, and yet we continue to tax them out the arse to pay for thousands of fucking useless, pompous, self-elevating numbnut bureaucrats to tell us what to do, what to think, what to say.

If I was the editor of a major paper, the headlines would read “Race Relations Commissioner says- Racism okay”
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November 7, 2009 5:25pm
philu

what is untrue about what he said..?..reid..?

have you never read/learnt any new zealand colonial history..?

if you had you would hardly call harawiras’ words ‘this appalling and hurtful allegations’…?

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 5:27pm
starboard

blah blah blah blah wardle oodle ardle wank wank..fuck off whore ya tosser
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November 7, 2009 5:30pm
philu

this is about britain..and tory policies there..

but it is most certainly about here…

(especially with reference to the ‘winners & losers’ in this recession/depression..)

and what this piece illustrates..

is how jhn key is doing/has done all the wrong things..

..to repair our economy..

“..(British Tory Leader) Cameron adopts policies which will hurt the poor ..because he’s never known any

The most common complaint against David Cameron is unfair and untrue. Critics keep charging that he has no policies –

– but in truth, now he has dropped his early attempt at kum-bay-ya Conservatism ..

.. Cameron is offering a fairly detailed prospectus.

Unfortunately, it is of policies that will harm Britain.

There is a laboratory where these Tory policies are being played out now.

It is called London.

Boris Johnson said he was a “progressive conservative” who would “help the poor” .. and “green the city”.

One of his first acts in power was to lay off half the people in London government working on lowering the city’s carbon emissions ..

.. and to kick plans to limit pollution levels into the long grass.

One year in, it is clear he has delivered handsomely – for the rich.

He has given them a de facto tax cut by abolishing the extension of the congestion zone to well-heeled west London ..

.. and by abandoning the £25-a-day charge for SUV drivers.

He has paid for it by pushing up costs for the poorest people in London ..

.. ramming up bus fares by 20 per cent.

He has opposed all new regulation on the City of London, and still praises sub-prime mortgages – the cause of the Great Crash of 2008.

Under the Conservative council of Hammersmith and Fulham – named by Cameron as a model for how he will rule – things have gone further.

It has paid for tax cuts by shutting down 12 homeless hostels ..

.. increasing the cost of meals on wheels for poor pensioners by 60 percent ..

.. and suddenly charging disabled people who need home help £12.40 an hour..”

(and..)

“..Of course, the most consequential policies so far cover the economy ..

.. where Cameron is promoting a fringe philosophy rejected by every other elected government.

Most economists believe that when private spending collapses, the Government has to fill the gap in demand by borrowing and spending –

– or a recession turns into a depression.

Yet Cameron says governments must cut spending to pay down the debt .. however bad the economic weather.

The country that has steered out of the recession fastest – China – did precisely the opposite.

It ramped up state spending to 88 per cent of GDP growth.

Even Angela Merkel, who used to share Cameron’s analysis .. was so struck by this she now plans a large debt-funded stimulus.

Professor David Blanchflower – one of the most distinguished economists in Britain –

– says Cameron’s policies mean another million people will lose their jobs.

“It could send the economy crashing into a ten-year depression,” he warns.

It is hard to escape the conclusion that Cameron and George Osborne can adopt policies that are so harmful towards ordinary people and the poor..

.. because they have never really known any..”

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/the-harsh-truth-about-tory-policies/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 5:32pm
Hurf Durf

People for Hone Harewirarghaugsi’s bropartheid racism:
PhilU and Luc Hansen

People against Hone Hariwireresignnow’s bropartheid racism:
Everyone else

Oh, and Phool, Hari is a Marxist idiot who’s only where he is because he shills for the left. I’ll post my part-Fisking of it when it comes up on another blog’s comment section.
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November 7, 2009 5:32pm
Steve

Must have been a good stogie Phool.
Quardle oodle ardle the stoner said
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November 7, 2009 5:36pm
Johnboy

Extract from “The Magpies Song” by Frank S. Williamson.

Oh, the noon beside the ocean, when the spring tide, landward set,
Cast ashore the loosened silver from the waves of violet,
As the seagod sang a lovesong and the sheoak answer made,
Came the magpie’s carol wafted down the piny colonnade,
Trolling, trolling, trolling in a nuptial melody,
As it floated from the moaning pine to charm the singing sea.

I particularly like the fifth line. 🙂
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November 7, 2009 5:36pm
Banana Llama

I have read alot about how the Maori colonized this land before the European nations arrived Phillu, don’t blame others for playing by the rules of the day.
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November 7, 2009 5:36pm
Steve

Excuse me for a moment, gotta get my glass of shiraz off the side of the BBQ.
That’s the BBQ that’s cooking garlic and onions and some huge bits of fillet
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November 7, 2009 5:39pm
starboard

black arse harawira cant get away with this…he has overstepped the mark big time..he has to go from parliament no ifs no buts..I can call him blackarse cos de bres says its freedom of speech..
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November 7, 2009 5:40pm
Steve

Suck eggs Phool.
No, don’t do that, suck bean sprouts instead
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November 7, 2009 5:40pm
Steve

Sideshowbob, you finished milking?
Sometime soon you will finish milking, unlike Phool who milks 24/7
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November 7, 2009 5:42pm
Steve

Mrs Titiwhai Harawira,
Can you please smack your son’s bum for being a naughty boy? He will not learn until he respects the rights of all New Zealanders instead of racist Maori rights.
Thank you Mum, mother of Maori
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November 7, 2009 5:49pm
Inventory2

Phillip Ure (5.27pm) defends Hone Harawira.

So Phil – when you said on 14 February 2005:

“my name is phillip ure; i am an ex junkie (15 yrs clean of junk; still use pot), ex con (armed robbery of chemist shop whilst going through smack withdrawels), vegan,dpb supported sole dad(thanks), environmental/animal rights activist/supporter.

my lineage is irish, scots, welsh; filtered through five generations in this wonderful country. (did anyone see connolly last night, whoar!)

i have travelled/lived in aust, usa, europe, china/asia and other parts of the planet.

i loathe racists my name is phillip ure; i am an ex junkie (15 yrs clean of junk; still use pot), ex con (armed robbery of chemist shop whilst going through smack withdrawels), vegan,dpb supported sole dad(thanks), environmental/animal rights activist/supporter.

my lineage is irish, scots, welsh; filtered through five generations in this wonderful country. (did anyone see connolly last night, whoar!)

i have travelled/lived in aust, usa, europe, china/asia and other parts of the planet.

i loathe racists with an intensity that is visceral. .”

did you mean ALL racists, or does your loathing only extend to white people who are racist towards non-white people? Harawira’s comments yesterday were blatantly racist, and I’m surprised you’re not addressing your vitriol towards him “with an intensity that is visceral” 🙂
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November 7, 2009 6:03pm
philu

but what he said is true..

wouldn’t you be pissed off..?

if you were maori..?

you’d have to be fucken braindead not to be..

eh..?

and it was written to a maori associate he knows..in an email..

and anyway..as i said b4..

the subtext here is that harawira is pissed off at the maori party selling out to labour..

(and i reckon that him and sue bradford would/could be a powerful nucleus of a kick-arse new political party..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 6:15pm
philu

(edit facility still not working..)

of course..it is national who the maori party have sold out to..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 6:17pm
Hurf Durf

i reckon that him and sue bradford would/could be a powerful nucleus of a kick-arse new political party..)

The Lunatic Racist Party?

The Phool Party?

The How Fucking Stupid Is MMP If These Two Fuckers Manage To Get Into Parliament Party?

Or we can just call them Alliance again.
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November 7, 2009 6:19pm
Inventory2

Phillip Ure said “but what he said is true..”

What Phil – that whites are motherf**ckers? That’s absolute bollocks, and blatant racism. I think you’re being just a little hypocritical here Phil – either you loathe racists “with an intensity that is visceral”, or you don’t – which is it?
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November 7, 2009 6:20pm
philu

no..that whites have systematically ripped off maori since early colonisation..

what’s incorrect about that..?

harawira was just stating an historical fact..

(and all this shock!/horror! from the rightwing/openly racist trolls here..is kinda ‘funny’..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 6:29pm
Hurf Durf

White motherfuckers, phool? Or just whites?

Tell me, do you want white motherfuckers subsidising your existence?

Gotta love Phool’s subconscious racism.
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November 7, 2009 6:32pm
philu

how about ‘the workers party’..?

that’s nice and unambiguous..

a party clearly focussed on working for all the battlers/screwed over..

with their combined appeal…

they wd easlily crack 5%..

(and they are ‘needed’..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 6:36pm
Banana Llama

There is a truth to it Phillu but the real truth is that ripping of ones fellow man is not exclusive to whitey, if you are wronged do you make innocent people pay for the crime? most who are alive today have never raped or pillaged the land yet are forced to pay for a crime they never committed, so when Honi said what he said it tarred all of one ethnicity with the same brush in an attempt to justify his own hypocrisy.
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November 7, 2009 6:37pm
getstaffed

Sir Clive James on the golf-ball based potato chip, and the importance of skepticism in the global warming debate.

It’s a 10 minute audio and, as is usual for Sir Clive, both entertaining and thought provoking.
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November 7, 2009 6:38pm
reid

Phillip Ure said “but what he said is true..”

Yes, he’s said that twice now. Sadly, phil has missed the point. The issue is not whether it’s true, it’s that it’s offensive. Secondly, the brown motherfucker who’s cuzzies rape our welfare system, invited the recipient to go to the media.

S.61(c) of the Human Rights Act which I quoted above, says that that, is a breach of the act. M-kay?

The fact that the brown motherfucker who’s cuzzies rape our welfare system is an MP, makes it twice as bad, not legally, but ethically, which is why the Maori Party are so appalled.

To cap it off, the brown motherfucker who’s cuzzies rape our welfare system, refused to resile from his comments when challenged.

Whichever way you cut it, the brown motherfucker who’s cuzzies rape our welfare system is guilty of inciting racial disharmony, and that is regardless of anything whatsoever to do with the truth or otherwise of his statement. Is that quite clear phil?

“i reckon that him and sue bradford would/could be a powerful nucleus of a kick-arse new political party”

Which just goes to show phil why most people don’t exactly regard you as a towering intellect on the political analytical landscape.

eh…
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November 7, 2009 6:39pm
Hurf Durf

Bwadford and Harikari in the Workers’ Party. Hilarious.

Dunno how they’d fight for the Middle Class though.
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November 7, 2009 6:44pm
Inventory2

That’s irrelevant Phil. Harawira’s choice of words “white man’s bullshit” and “white motherf**kers” was blatantly racist. If you or I were to comment on “black man’s bullshit” or “Maori motherf**kers”, that would be equally racist.

And FWIW Phil, I dislike racists too; just not quite as viscerally as you perhaps. And Hone Harawira is a racist as far as I am concerned.
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November 7, 2009 6:46pm
Inventory2

reid said “Which just goes to show phil why most people don’t exactly regard you as a towering intellect on the political analytical landscape.

eh…”

Indeed reid – and Phil probably doesn’t see the irony in suggesting that No-smack Sue Bradford could be involved in somethinh he decribes as “kick-arse” 😉
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November 7, 2009 6:50pm
philu

“..The issue is not whether it’s true, it’s that it’s offensive..”

oh..!..more offensive than the ‘screwing over’..?..really..?

you would feel that way were you maori..?

eh..?

“.. Secondly, the brown motherfucker who’s cuzzies rape our welfare system..”

hey buddy..!..’your crew’ are the mega-troughing scumbags douglas and hide..

both with both arms in the trough..and whirring like windmills..

and are you quite happy with financing rodneys’ mid-life crisis..?..are you..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 6:51pm
philu

“..Dunno how they’d fight for the Middle Class though…”

they wouldn’t bother..

national/act/labour/the greens are already squabbling over them..

they’d have pretty much a ‘clear run’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 6:52pm
Hurf Durf

Phool, the mega trougher, criticises other troughers.

You are such a hypocrite. A glittering career in politics awaits.
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November 7, 2009 6:56pm
reid

“oh..!..more offensive than the ’screwing over’..?..really..?”

Yeah those damned settlements designed to redress the imbalance are terrible aren’t they phil. What would YOU do were you back in 1984 before it began? What would YOU do, specifically. Be specific phil. Would you give them Auckland. Would you say to every single resident in Auckland that they didn’t have a house anymore because the brown motherfuckers needed them? Or would you (chortle) naively imagine that cause its the gummint, it has heaps of money eh and so we can pay them anything we like. Tell us what you’d do phil, go on. BE SPECIFIC – name dollar amounts.

“and are you quite happy with financing rodneys’ mid-life crisis..?..are you..?”

No, I said that both last night and this morning phil. I think its appalling. Why do you imagine I’d support what Rodney’s done in anyway? What the fuck do you think I am – Rodders all the way, right or wrong? C’mon, I’m NOT like the Greens who decided to let Liarbore get away with such actions because they were “on the same side.” That’s scumbag behaviour and showed the Greens were unprincipled naive liars. I’m not like that AT ALL, thank you.
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November 7, 2009 7:00pm
Johnboy

“how about ‘the workers party’..?

that’s nice and unambiguous..

a party clearly focussed on working for all the battlers/screwed over..”

Hahahahahaha WTF would you know about “workers” phool you’ve never done a days work in your whole useless life what a bloody joke you really are mate.
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November 7, 2009 7:05pm
Steve

Btw Phool my food is good right now.
You should convert to Maoridom. Even if you have one brown/black mole on you, this is the path of the bludgers to live off taxpayers.
No more? eat the trough and demand another full trough.
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November 7, 2009 7:06pm
philu

we all must bow before hide/douglas..

they are the ‘big kahunas’ of the troughing world..(travel-subsection..)

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 7:08pm
Hurf Durf

You really are totally ignorant, aren’t you, phool?
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November 7, 2009 7:13pm
Steve

Hurf Durf,
That’s how it works, diversion. That fucking idiot has no idea about ignorance.
Quardle ooddle aardle the idiot said
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November 7, 2009 7:21pm
Steve

Guy Falkes,
Phools version is that double happies blast off in the brain, stoned twice from the same spoon.
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November 7, 2009 7:24pm
philu

“..phool you’ve never done a days work in your whole useless life .”

i work every day..

it is a news-aggregating website called whoar.co.nz..

(didn’tyaknow..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 7, 2009 7:49pm
Inventory2

Phil – if you “work every day”, why are you on the DPB?
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November 7, 2009 8:02pm
nickb

So philu when are you going to stop obfuscating and tell us why the phrase “white motherfuckers” is not racist?
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November 7, 2009 8:03pm
Steve

David Farrah is not here, he is overseas earning money and having a holiday.
Thing is, DPF pays. The taxpayer don’t fund him.
Now if he decides to visit another city, it is his choice.
If DPF was going to a meeting somewhere in Europe and got sick, that would be ok.
If DPF was found in another city, that would be ok.
If DPF was funded by the taxpayer to travel to another City, that is not ok.
Hone is entitled to the same as all MPs

Hone is not entitled to make it a racist issue
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November 7, 2009 8:07pm
nickb

philu you must have a semblance of a brain if you obtained a masters, which is why it surprises me you continu to defend the indefensible and have such utter hypocritical double standards, the fact remains that Harawira is a bully and a racist, and you haven’t explained why “white motherfuckers” is justified for a parliamentarian to use.;
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November 7, 2009 8:08pm
Hurf Durf

He probably just did the bunk courses like Social Justice and told his tutors what they wanted to hear.
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November 7, 2009 8:10pm
nickb

“hey buddy..!..’your crew’ are the mega-troughing scumbags douglas and hide..”

Philu, after the last few months on this blog, you will have realised that most people in this thread are relatively apolitical in the sense of following a party, there are very few out and out cheerleaders on KB, most just want the govt out of our lives and pockets, thus many (including myself) feel as disgusted by Hide’s troughing as anyone else’s.

So stop dodging the question, and tell us why “white motherfuckers” is not racist.
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November 7, 2009 8:14pm
Steve

Phool is doing vegan BBQ and watching the lights in the sky.
Boom boom
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November 7, 2009 8:14pm
jabba

“I wish to make an official complaint about Maori MP Hone Harawira referring to my people as “white motherfuckers who have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries”.
This maybe true BUT it is outrageous for a MP of our Parliament to say so in this way.
I would expect that the Race Relations Commissioner is also outraged and take steps to censure .. whatever, this person.
He should be dealt with in the same as I would expect to be if I called him (MR Harawira) a “brown motherfucker”, which I would never do of course.
ps .. Mr De Bres does not need to issue me a certificate for standing up to this blatant racist, it is my duty to do so”.

That was my email to infoline@hrc.co.nz

come on Philu .. get a grip, you might be happy to be called a white motherfucker but I’m not. I loved my mum but not that much.

Steve 5:39 .. yep, Sat nights are bbq nights .. scotch fillet with asparagus, glazed onions, broccoli/bacon and tai kumara from the supermarket and yes, washed down with a couple bottles of red (not lion red)) burp/hic
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November 7, 2009 8:35pm
nickb

“Mr De Bres does not need to issue me a certificate for standing up to this blatant racist, it is my duty to do so”.”

LOL at this part jabba
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November 7, 2009 8:43pm
Hurf Durf

Anyone else just had a short, 30 second powercut?
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November 7, 2009 9:05pm
Pete George

KEVIN RUDD has launched a blistering attack on climate change sceptics and deniers in Australia and abroad, accusing them of a systematic campaign to sabotage global talks in Copenhagen and of being contemptuous towards the interests of the world’s children.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-war-gets-personal-for-rudd-20091106-i24u.html
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November 7, 2009 9:13pm
Hurf Durf

Krudd needs to shut his fucking mouth, as he might well say.
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November 7, 2009 9:21pm
Viking2

Grumpy old hori (and I won’t use the other elegant phrase that the teammate from up north used), re the Nats.
Why would the Nats want to change things? They are just as big at troughing as the Liarbour Party. No my friend Bill and Nick and Maurice won’t change and nor will they change anything to advantage NZ.
Sometime soon the rest of you lot will start to realize what a waste of space the Nats really are.
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November 7, 2009 9:24pm
Viking2

Q+A in the morning. Apparently the billous one is going to be interviewed. Probably some coded instructions for the lefties and for Trev.
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November 7, 2009 9:26pm
Viking2

Banks in the crap with Ausiie Tax office.

A COMPLEX and highly secretive $US125 million ($137m) deal by National Australia Bank, codenamed Project Turtle, is one of a series of transactions by local banks at the centre of a crackdown by the Australian Taxation Office.

Details of the deal, obtained by The Weekend Australian, shed light on “asymmetric swap” schemes with offshore financial institutions as possible vehicles for large-scale tax avoidance.

The ATO’s action, which has split the banking and tax communities, again puts the tax practices of NAB, Commonwealth Bank and ANZ Bank under the microscope.

It comes as the Big Four banks, including Westpac, face a hefty

$2 billion tax bill in New Zealand from soured structured finance transactions.

ANZ and CBA refused to comment yesterday on their exposure to asymmetric swaps, but NAB said its transaction was entered into as part of its fee-generating wholesale banking business, and met all relevant internal approval processes.

“NAB will of course co-operate fully with the ATO in its industry-wide review of these transactions,” a spokesman said.

The deals targeted by the ATO, which could involve revenue leakage in the hundreds of millions of dollars, feature a local bank and an offshore financial institution.

The offshore entity typically deals in equities, currencies and commodities and is keen to hedge its trading portfolio.

The local bank agrees to swap transactions, involving its domestic banking operation and its offshore banking unit (OBU), which is concessionally taxed at 10 per cent. Through an arbitrage of the lower OBU tax rate and the 30 per cent rate for the domestic banking unit, the local bank always makes an after-tax profit, after collecting a taxable flow of fees for entering into the swaps.

In Project Turtle, NAB agreed to a long swap transaction with a global investment bank over an equity index involving a notional principal of $US125m.

If the index rose, the investment bank would pay NAB a certain amount, and the reverse would occur if the index fell.

NAB, through its OBU, also agreed to a short swap over the same index for a notional principal of $US97.2m — lower to allow for the concessional tax rate. The period of the swaps was for one year. NAB was to get a fee of $US8m.

In mid-2008, the parties signed off after NAB obtained a favourable private ruling from the ATO.

Soon after, the benchmark index for the deal slumped due to the financial crisis. The parties agreed in April to an early termination, with NAB taking a $US97m loss on the long swap and a $US75.6m profit on the short swap.

After collecting a $US7m fee, the bank lost $US14m on a pre-tax basis, but scored a $US5m after-tax profit. Despite issuing seven favourable private rulings, including one for Westpac that the bank ultimately did not use, the ATO released a draft determination last month saying its preliminary view was that the Part IVA general anti-avoidance provision applied to asymmetric swaps.

By itself, the fact that the domestic bank always makes a profit is not considered sufficient to invoke Part IVA.

The ATO’s draft determination therefore split the tax and banking industries.

“Asymmetric swaps are a much better thing than betting on the Melbourne Cup — the bank makes money if equities go up, and it makes money if equities go down,” a banking industry source said.

“My guess is that the ATO will soon be issuing assessments to the banks, because, in tax, when you think it looks too good you know it probably is.”

A tax expert, who condemned the ATO’s u-turn after its private rulings, said he was still uncomfortable about the major banks benefiting from a domestic tax arbitrage.

“The indexes could have gone the other way and the ATO would have made a windfall,” he said.

“Still, it’s not a good look for the banks to engage in domestic tax arbitrage, when the OBU system was set up to make them more globally competitive.”

Greg Pratt, a partner in Ernst & Young’s financial services tax group, said asymmetric swaps had a big impact on the pre-tax profit line, so the “tax tail should not wag the commercial dog.”

“But for Part IVA to apply, an objective person has to conclude that the dominant purpose is tax avoidance, and it’s hard to see how a draft determination without regard to any particular facts or taxpayers will apply,” he said.

Corporate Tax Association executive director Frank Drenth noted that the draft determination still had to be fully implemented.

But he argued it would be “concerning” for the ATO to issue favourable rulings to the banks, and then invoke Part IVA after seeing how the transactions turned out.

The profits, he said, had ended up in the OBU, taxed at 10 per cent, while the losses went into the entity taxed at the full rate.

“I bet if it had been the other way around, then we wouldn’t be looking at undoing the private rulings,” Mr Drenth said.

In the meantime, David Butler, who as NZ tax commissioner ran the structured finance cases against the Big Four, rejoined the ATO in September last year. He doesn’t have direct responsibility for the asymmetric swaps fracas.
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November 7, 2009 9:40pm
Viking2

http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/11/06/opinion-why-tax-cuts-would-have-been-better-than-govt-spending-sprees/

Is John Key the ‘do nothing’ Prime Minister?

* Yes. Rodney Hide is right. Key needs to get on with reforming the economy and forget about remaining popular forever. (68%, 151 Votes)
* No. He’s done as much as he should have. You’re all a bunch of nervous nellies. Everything is fine (17%, 37 Votes)
* No. He’s rightly waiting for his experts to advise him on the right way to do it. (15%, 35 Votes)

Total Voters: 223
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November 7, 2009 10:20pm
TimG_Oz

“So who gets to get rid of those tough bloody Muslims the Turks, maybe the Israelis will believe their own propaganda and have a crack at them.”

Pretty Unlikely because Turkey and Israel are politcal Allies – the borders are open between the two countries. When I was in Turkey I was interested to visit a city which displayed the Israeli flag and had a sister city in Israel.
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November 7, 2009 11:13pm

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