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November 30, 2009 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 30 November 2009

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General Debate

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Pete George

Nick, if you want immediate fixes the way you like you may be looking for someone to vote for for a long time.

Even in one term it’s hard for a new government to bring about all the changes it would ideally like to see. Tack on the front of that a major global recession and I think you are demanding far to much too soon.
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November 30, 2009 9:20pm
Jadis

So have you enjoyed contributing to DPF being number 4 on the Listener’s most powerful (in Media) list?
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November 30, 2009 9:22pm
Luc Hansen

Fletch, this statement When you have scientists fudging data and ‘losing’ the original raw data so that it can’t be peer reviewed then it becomes a joke. is conspiracy theory crap. The data you are talking about is not lost. It is held by the Met offices who supplied it.

Then you say in fact, as the temperature decreases. Fletch, you are talking here about short term variation that is still completely in agreement with AGW theory.

It is true that climate warming is a theory, because projections cannot become fact until they occur. The problem for you is that the IPCC projections have not become fact simply because the observed facts have outstripped the IPCC’s conservative projections.

Here’s a challenge for you: present just one fact, clearly and concisely, that appears to disprove AGW, and I guarantee I can rebut it within a reasonable time frame.
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November 30, 2009 9:24pm
stephen

If you look at magazine articles during the 20th century you’ll see scaremongering switching from warnings of another coming ice age, then warming, then ice age, then warming.

That’s a crap reason without even looking analysing the nature of the predictions. Fortunately some have looked at it from a few angles, there was even a paper written on it: http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s.htm

No cigar.
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November 30, 2009 9:30pm
Luc Hansen

Sorry Fletch, I forgot the link to disprove your assertion that temperatures are decreasing.
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November 30, 2009 9:31pm
Fletch

Here’s a challenge for you: present just one fact, clearly and concisely, that appears to disprove AGW, and I guarantee I can rebut it within a reasonable time frame.

Luc, and I bet I can do the opposite; but that is my point right there: there isn’t a consensus one way or the other, therefore nothing should be done about it until we learn more – certainly not the spending of ridiculous amounts of money by governments worldwide.

As for losing the raw data, that’s what they claimed – that they didn’t have it anymore. Rather that than hand it over I guess.
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November 30, 2009 9:55pm
Luc Hansen

Fletch, there is a consensus. You are just plain wrong. If you spend some time at Real Climate. or even just read my posts above, you will no longer be the misinformed prey of warped individuals.

Since you asked: CO2 always lags warming in the natural climate cycle True or false?.
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November 30, 2009 10:04pm
reid

“What a sick joke, you gutless wonder. John Key, the National Socialist Party and yourself have lost my vote for the rest of my life.”

Nick, you’re obviously clearly astute, since you’re interested both in conservative values and politics which is a relatively rare combo for a young person.

Can I ask, what would you like to see happen, in real-politic terms? Not just naive fantastical idealistic la-la stuff like the lefties crap on about (all the time, endlessly with never ending repetition), but stuff that would actually work and make a difference in the real world?
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November 30, 2009 10:22pm
Fletch

I don’t believe there is a consensus. Even in America, 32,000 scientists (including over 9000 with PhD’s) have signed a petition saying they don’t buy it – and that’s just in the US.
Meanwhile, John Key is being advised by Peter Gluckman, his new Chief Science Advisor (why do I think of Mr Spock when I read that?) whose field of expertise is in paediatrics.

Oh, and apparently historical data shows that temperature always rises first, followed 800 years LATER by carbon dioxide levels. This is the REVERSE of what global warming theory claims. (Source: Six respected climate and environment scientists)
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November 30, 2009 10:30pm
reid

“Here’s a challenge for you: present just one fact, clearly and concisely, that appears to disprove AGW”

The geologic record Luc.

Look at the geologic record.

You know, the stuff that goes back millions of years.

Look at the temp fluctuations in that and guess what?

No humans.Yet fluctuations happened. Crikey. Hello?

Tending to indicate that GW is a cyclical phenomena. AGW is an unproven hysteria.

Then look at the Sun, Luc. You know, that big thing in the sky that turns night into day etc and so forth. It has these things called Sun Cycles
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November 30, 2009 10:31pm
Fletch

ps, From the Times yesterday –

Climate change data dumped

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

Very convenient ey?
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November 30, 2009 10:54pm
Luc Hansen

reid

The geologic record Luc.

Look at the geologic record.

You know, the stuff that goes back millions of years.

Look at the temp fluctuations in that and guess what?

No humans.Yet fluctuations happened. Crikey. Hello?

Got a link?
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November 30, 2009 11:02pm
Luc Hansen

Fletch

UEA is a research facility who seek data from organisations who collect that data.

Nothing is lost or destroyed. It’s just elsewhere. The raw data is meaningless until it is corrected. That is the scientific method that put men on the moon.

Or do you think that is a conspiracy theory too?
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November 30, 2009 11:07pm
reid

“Got a link?”

Yes, but I’m sure you can drive google yourself.

AGW science is not a link war Luc, it’s a truth pact.

We all love the planet.

Post your questions, let me know if you don’t find something valid, I’ll reply tomorrow evening.
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November 30, 2009 11:11pm
Luc Hansen

Just give me a link, Reid.

Show me the money.
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November 30, 2009 11:19pm
Hurf Durf

And the usual suspects defend their fledgling confidence trick.

Newsflash: everything the CRU has produced and everything produced from that is bullshit. Tough luck.
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November 30, 2009 11:21pm
Luc Hansen

Try this Hurf

http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/myths/the-hockey-stick
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November 30, 2009 11:23pm
KiwiGreg

LOL Ryan – shades of Starship Troopers.
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December 1, 2009 7:34am
Falafulu Fisi

Lucy Hansen, why do you keep referring to a open source software guy, who’s background is cutting & pasting HTML codes? He is not a climatologist nor even a physicist? His supposed domain of expertise is in Systems Theory and Complex Systems. This guy ain’t know the difference between a prostitute and State-Space-Theory (fundamental to dynamical system theory).

What I am trying to say here. Well I can spot guys on the internet who think they understand what they’re talking about, but actually have zero knowledge about the subject/topic. You should try to read discussions on various physics forums on the net so that you can educate yourself on science rather than keep quoting someone who has no clue to science but an expert in cutting & pasting HTML codes then call themselves software-engineer? WHAT? There is nothing engineering about cutting & pasting HTML codes.
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December 1, 2009 8:20am
Falafulu Fisi

Lucy Hansen, I made a brief comment on the Hockey-Stick on this thread from another blog. Note, I know the algorithm they used in the Hockey-Stick paper, inside-out , so I am more qualified in commenting on the issue, then the HTML code cutting/pasting guy you keep referring to.
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December 1, 2009 8:30am
Viking2

Copenhagen travel plans made for Key
The Dominion Post
Last updated 05:00 02/12/2009

Planning is under way for Prime Minister John Key to attend the Copenhagen conference on climate change, as chances grow of a deal at the historic meeting.

Though Mr Key is still refusing to say if he will go to Denmark for the conference, which begins next week, officials have made contingency arrangements for him, including preliminary travel bookings.

Mr Key said on his way last week to the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Trinidad and Tobago, it was unlikely he would go to Copenhagen because of the slim possibility of any resolutions being hammered out. But as more world leaders book their tickets, pressure is mounting on him to attend. Representatives of 193 countries are now expected in the Danish capital, including 90 leaders.

In Trinidad, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon urged all world leaders to go to Copenhagen “and seal a deal that is ambitious, a deal that is equitable, a deal that satisfies the demands of science”.

So its of to Copenhagen we go when last week it was no.
We need an election urgently.
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December 2, 2009 6:13am
Viking2

One for Key. The first thing that he’s done that is positive this week.

The chairman is Greg Muir of Hanover fame.

Tourism chief’s goodbye gift ‘not a good buy’
By NICK CHURCHOUSE – The Dominion Post
Last updated 05:00 02/12/2009

Tourism New Zealand’s directors have been forced to stump up thousands of dollars of their own for a Dick Frizzell painting after Prime Minister John Key blasted the purchase “excessive expenditure of taxpayer money”.

The painting, commissioned as a farewell gesture for departing Tourism New Zealand chief executive George Hickton, was approved by the board but has not impressed Mr Key, who is also tourism minister.

It is understood Frizzell did the painting for considerably less than it might be worth on the open market, with a price tag of less than $10,000.

But, following Mr Key’s rebuke, the board members paid back most of the purchase price, with a final cost to Tourism NZ of $2000.

A spokesman for Mr Key said he acknowledged Mr Hickton’s long service at Tourism NZ but the board’s choice of gift was “excessive expenditure of taxpayer money”.

“[The prime minister] would expect the board members themselves to make a substantial contribution towards the cost. The Government is firm that it does not want a culture of extravagance in government departments and Crown entities.”

Tourism NZ chairman Greg Muir said in light of the prime minister’s comments, the gift was “more appropriately funded largely by the board members themselves”.

The board had asked Frizzell to commemorate Mr Hickton’s “10 years of outstanding contribution” at Tourism NZ. The artwork was commissioned without Mr Key’s or Mr Hickton’s knowledge.

Mr Hickton’s time at the tourism marketing body saw the introduction and development of the 100% Pure New Zealand brand, now acknowledged as the leading destination brand in the world.

Frizzell said the “price was right” for the painting and he was delighted with how it was received, knowing Mr Hickton was a fan.

“I do like it when I get a commission where everybody is on song. The idea is received with open arms, the execution is spot on, and the price is right and the client goes bonkers when they unwrap it. It was one of those, it was a thrill.”

Mr Muir was paid $58,000 in the past financial year and Tourism NZ directors between $4000 and $25,000. They are Susie Johnstone, Paul Bingham, John Barrett, Glenys Coughlan, Henry van Asch, Malcolm Johns, Jennie Langley and Paul Richardson.
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December 2, 2009 6:22am
KiwiGreg

@ Viking2 gosh the money saved might pay the travel costs for at least one of the kaumatua going to Copenhagen or 0.00001% of the weekly deficit. Looking “tough” and “Responsible” on little things is easy.
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December 2, 2009 8:18am

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