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November 29, 2009 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 29 November 2009

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General Debate

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Luc Hansen

Good on you Luc. And all those +ve karma’s from people who share your opinion(s). Way to go.

I wear the -ve karmas as a badge of honour! No point in debating with like minded people, is there?
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November 29, 2009 11:31pm
Hurf Durf

Hamas is National, now? Boy, Luc, you really are on the fringe.

is a sad byproduct of over 60 years of dispossession, oppression and, since 1967, occupation.

Don’t bother trying to justify it.

Arabs in general suffer considerable discrimination in Israel.

Ah yes, of course they do. That’s why they have the most democratic rights in all the Middle East. Those cursed Bedouin! (And no, Iran is not democratic, as much as their apologists wish to twist it as much.)

anti-Semitism was not in Arab consciousness.

Yeah, it was a more general “if you’re not one of us pay a tax” feeling. I wonder what they thought of those Zoroastrians?

the misuse of western aid – don’t forget they receive significant aid from Arab countries too – is unjustifiable, but again this does not justify collective punishment.

No, it doesn’t. It also means that they fail a crucial test vis-a-vis self-government. Imagine if Tuhoe became independent, got billions in aid and it turned out they spent that money on Iranian missiles? I don’t imagine National would be best pleased.

the slur of being incapable of responsible is not only racist

At last, the moneyshot! Because the ability to self-govern is inherently genetic- oh wait! No it isn’t. I’m sorry, are you saying that it is? Because that would be racist. You racist.

Quisling governments under occupation

That damned Abbas! A slave to the joooooooooooooz!
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November 29, 2009 11:43pm
malcolm

Phil, 200 litres/glass might be correct elsewhere in the world, but not NZ. No way. Unless they’re counting the rain (and even then it sounds high), but that’s nuts. You might as well count all the rain landing on NZ and divide that by the farming output. It’s meaningless.

I’ll have a look at the Listener. Does he actually say that NZ dairy farms + milk processing plants use 200 litres/glass of milk? Or is it just a factoid thrown in?

In my experience as a power engineer, if you read a number in a newspaper or magazine, it’s often incorrect or has incorrect units. Often because the journalist doesn’t have a feel for physical quantities or they get the units wrong or they try to convert a figure into a more meaningful units and cock it up. If I had a dollar for each time I’ve read about a 220 kA transmission line, or a 1000 kW power station, or a 33,000 kV power line, or this power station will produce 200 MW of energy per year. Well, I’d have a lot of money.
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November 29, 2009 11:50pm
Tassman

Has anyone ever heard of an Israelis climate change plan? Well, the Queen has endorsed the Commonwealth’s support and the PM has suggested it’s just another photo opportunity. He then decided to impose 100 billion dollars on the ordinary folks to sustain big polluters habits along with five Maori tribes!
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November 30, 2009 5:24am
Pete George

# getstaffed at 10:28 pm

Pete – You post rafts of comments running down the arguments of anyone that doesn’t worship at the alter of climate change and then drop in a comment about having an open mind about the whole subject. IMO that’s simply dishonest, and a waste of electrons given the MSM already do a sterling job of promoting alarm and fear.

I take it from this comment you can’t substantiate your accusation.

You post rafts of comments running down anyone who doesn’t worship at your alter of absolute denial. I have checked out claims you and your congregation of closed minds make and find most of them dubious at best.

You try to promote alarm and fear about global governments and scams for which you don’t even try to substantiate.

You cast aspersions on thousands of scientists.

And you again avoided my question, instead resorting to baseless attack again – name one part of climate science I staunchly defend.
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November 30, 2009 6:56am
Pete George

# getstaffed at 11:15 pm

Good on you Luc. And all those +ve karma’s from people who share your opinion(s). Way to go.

A few karmas on Kiwiblog?

When Danish Prime Minister Lars Rasmussen arrived in Trinidad on Saturday for the Commonwealth summit, 85 leaders were going. By yesterday it was 90.

Way to go.
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November 30, 2009 7:19am
dad4justice

“Way to go.”

Indeed petey, just what the gardener said with all this rain about.
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November 30, 2009 7:21am
side show bob

Malcolm, don’t worry about phool he is mad as a maggot. Only milking around 170 cows at the moment, the thirty thousand litre figure is probably more correct for when I was milking more then 200 cows and this would also be on the hottest day in summer. The cows love their water but not as much as noddy would have you believe. He is talking through a hole in his arse.
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November 30, 2009 10:13am
philu

bloody-hands-bob..

stop trying to deflect the message..by attacking the messanger..

(where did you learn to do that..?..)

the fact is…as adjudicated by a top scientist..whose specialty is the water content/price of food/goods..

is that every glass of that filthy/cancer/stroke/heart-disease-causing white-death muck that you produce/peddle..

..has that enormous environmental footprint of 200 litres of (waste)-water..

plus the pollution/degradation of our land/waterways..

plus the pain/suffering deaths of the animals you so cruelly exploit/mistreat..

(and i am the one ‘talking through a hole in his arse.’..eh..?

i mean..if we further define that as one who talks total/provable shit..

that’s you..

eh..?

you are the problem..bloody-hands-bob..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 30, 2009 10:24am
side show bob

Buzzzzzzzzzzz, wrong again tosspot, my totals included all water used on the farm THIS INCLUDES “WASTE” WATER. Put in big letters as I would hate you to get the wrong end of the stick,again. May I humbly suggest you send this top scientist an email and tell him he is full of shit and shouldn’t make shit up. And besides if you so despise the dairy industry I take it you will be handing the 30% of your DPB back as dairy farmers pay 30% of the tax but you won’t be doing that will you you hypocritical wanker.
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November 30, 2009 10:55am
philu

may i humbly suggest that you engage with this scientist..

you are the one claiming his knowledge is worthless..

not me..

his name is brent clothier..

and he works at/for ‘plant and food research’..

i’m sure you’ll be able to find him from that..

do let us know how you get on..

eh..?

(the/any email exchange would be/make fascinating reading..eh..?..)

off you go..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 30, 2009 11:01am
malcolm

Phil, I’m sure you’d agree it’s important to get this stuff right, if people are to understand what goes into their food. I’m not accusing you of deliberately putting out false info, but that number is plan wrong. For NZ at least.

SSB has just confirmed that his farm uses at most 30,000 / (200 x 3 x 10) = 5 litres/glass. Probably less as that is based on 10 litres/day in mid summer.

If dairying in NZ is more efficient than in many other countries, wouldn’t it be better that it’s done here where the cost is less? As cost correlates with environmental cost. Look at dairying in California. Irrigation galore. Pumped by electricity from (predominately) coal-fired power stations.

So go easy in NZ dairy farmers. They’re one of NZ’s few economic success stories of recent times and one of the few areas still growing. Other than welfare dependency, of course. And from an environmental POV they leave the rest in the dust.

And if SSB could just vote to float Fonterra, I’d put my money where my mouth is 🙂
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November 30, 2009 11:18am
malcolm

(the/any email exchange would be/make fascinating reading..eh..?..)

I will have a look in the Listener. He may well have been talking about other countries.
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November 30, 2009 11:21am
philu

malcom..

can i suggest you also engage with mr clothier..?

(contact details above..)

i am not the one to argue the science of this..

i just told you about it..

eh..?

once again..

keep a record/let us know how you got on..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 30, 2009 11:22am
philu

no..he was definitely talking about new zealand..

with that/his..one glass of milk = 200 litres of water..formula..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 30, 2009 11:24am
malcolm

If you pull a number out of context and present it as evidence that something is bad, then you need to stand by it a little, Phil.

I don’t have the listener to hand, but why don’t you just copy in the paragraph where that figure came from? That might make it clearer. I will look myself and if that guy is saying that for NZ milk then I will send him an email as I would love to see how he got such a massive number. And I’ll report back.

I’m not having a go at you personally. But it doesn’t help when stupid numbers get bandied around all out of context.
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November 30, 2009 11:29am
malcolm

ok, i’ll have a look.
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November 30, 2009 11:33am
philu

quote:..

‘it takes for instance, 200 litres of water..to produce a glass of milk..”

is that specific enough for you..?

let us know how you get on..

(b.t.w…this guy is doing work to try to help/aid nz export efforts..

..he isn’t a wild-eyed greenie..trying to tear the system down..

all of which just makes his statement all the more powerful/show-stopping..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 30, 2009 11:41am
malcolm

So where in that quote does he say or imply that he’s talking about NZ?
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November 30, 2009 11:52am
getstaffed

You post rafts of comments running down anyone who doesn’t worship at your alter of absolute denial.

Where? I ‘run down’ arguments, not people.

I have checked out claims you and your congregation of closed minds make and find most of them dubious at best.

Hope I ‘checked out’ ok. Did you hire a PI? As for my ‘congregation of closed minds’ …what the hell is that? I believed that global warming was happening three years ago. I researched, became suspicious, researched some more and have since come to the view that the science we’ve fed by the experts & MSM is agenda-driven junk-science. The CRU emails and code confirms this for me. Quite how this constitutes a ‘closed mind’ is a mystery.

You try to promote alarm and fear about global governments and scams for which you don’t even try to substantiate.

This isn’t about climate and it isn’t about saving the planet. That you can’t see the bigger picture here is a concern, given that you appear to be bright enough chap.

You cast aspersions on thousands of scientists.

Where did I do that? Phil Jones et al are responsible for key datasets used by the IPCC. These datasets have been doctored, falsified, withheld from peer review and then ‘lost’ (‘the dog ate my homework’). That other scientists have based their legitimate efforts on what now appears to be falsified junk-science is a travesty. It is Jones at al that are bringing the legitimate efforts of many scientists into disrepute.

And you again avoided my question, instead resorting to baseless attack again – name one part of climate science I staunchly defend.

On the balance of your plentiful comments it’s clear that you’re well entrenched in the belief that human caused climate change is leading us towards a global catastrophe. I’m sorry that you feel this assessment is baseless attack. I’m simply stating what I observe.
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November 30, 2009 11:57am
big bruv

WTF???

A spokesperson for the New Zealand AIDS foundation has called the death of Glen Mills “tragic”

There is nothing tragic about it, this wanker deliberately infected man and woman with a deadly disease, the world is a better place now he is gone.
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November 30, 2009 12:15pm
Pete George

You may think it’s clear I’m “well entrenched in the belief that human caused climate change is leading us towards a global catastrophe.” If so you have not been observing very well. About as well you are observing world wide scientific research and observations perhaps, to fit your conspiracy theory.

You and a few are trying desperately to bring the efforts of many scientists into disrepute. For your accusations to be correct most scientists and politicians would have to be in on the same scam – for which you have still provided no evidence.

Phil Jones is responsible for some stupidity, but that doesn’t automatically negate everything he has been involved in, most studies on climate change are backed up by similar studies, and also backed by a lot of real world observations. And there is a lot more corroboration that his datasets have noting to do with.
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November 30, 2009 12:30pm
Pete George

bb, bugger off to today! You are posting in the past.
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November 30, 2009 12:32pm
getstaffed

You may think it’s clear I’m “well entrenched in the belief that human caused climate change is leading us towards a global catastrophe.” If so you have not been observing very well.

I’ve been observing quite well enough. You constantly knock back evidence which suggests that man-made climate change is not real, and then feign surprise when I observe that this casts you as a supporter of man-name climate change. Is it more comfortable declaring that you’re sitting on the fence, despite it being obvious that you’re not?

You and a few are trying desperately to bring the efforts of many scientists into disrepute.

Rubbish. It is Jones at al that are bringing their own profession into disrepute.

Phil Jones is responsible for some stupidity…

Phil Jones is not responsible for some stupidity. Jones, Mann and Biffra are responsible for deliberately falsifying data on which billions (trillions?) of dollars of current and future taxpayer money is to be spent. That is quite possibly criminal, as is the destruction of data prior to a FOI request. Further, their manipulation of the peer review process is an unethical pervasion of accepted scientific method. I’m more than a little alarmed that you classify these actions as ‘some stupidity’.
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November 30, 2009 1:17pm

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