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November 20, 2009 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 20 November 2009

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Chthoniid

Just a quick couple of shots before the mayhem begins.

The Jabiru is Australia’s only native stork species-
#1
http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v8/p225019018-5.jpg

#2
http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v6/p122250670-5.jpg

Enjoy your coffees/beverage of choice, and hopefully a decent Friday 🙂
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November 20, 2009 8:06am
mickysavage

Phil Goff is correct in addressing the Reserve Bank’s statutorily imposed obsession with inflation. The exchange rate is killing kiwi businesses and we will never get out of debt unless something is done.

New consensus anyone?

English should also stop telling lies. Labour drove crown debt DOWN not up.
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November 20, 2009 8:17am
Say Goodbye to Hollywood

Dear Santa

This year for Christmas I would like an ignore function. I promise I’ve been good.

Ta
Hollywood.
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November 20, 2009 8:19am
Say Goodbye to Hollywood

Remind me again how much we paid for that train set Micky.
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November 20, 2009 8:21am
Murray

Dear Santa, here is my list.

It’s a hit list.
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November 20, 2009 8:23am
jabba

those cheating Frogs .. le hand of Henry”
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November 20, 2009 8:36am
Swiftman the infidel

Go to the Greens website, key into the search bar ‘religion of peace’, and read all the lovely things those nit-wits have to say about Islam.

GO British National Party!!!
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November 20, 2009 8:40am
Simon

Copenhagen is DOA. President Zero can’t get support back home just yet and needs another six months. Zero needs to show Congress a Coalition of the Stupid of which NZ will be a member.

National are directly supporting Zero. (This is what Zero and Key talk about over breakfast even if it is for 4 minutes.) National’s drive to get ETS through is led by Nick Smith who is running secret deals to get the numbers. Secret deals which invlove massive transfer of weath from taxpayers to a small number of families. (Forget iwis it is the people at the top that control and benefit from the Treaty settlements)

Climate change it pollutes and corrupts everyone it touches.
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November 20, 2009 8:41am
pentwig

Great photos Chthoniid

The phool is going to be green with envy

Hopefully he will spew up his lentil brekkie.
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November 20, 2009 8:43am
Swiftman the infidel

Greens formula:

Western values = evil

Everything else = good
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November 20, 2009 8:57am
Tauhei Notts

Listening to Obama and his counterpart in China this week it was hard to tell who was Hu.
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November 20, 2009 9:00am
Fletch

From Garth George’s column in the Herald yesterday: pretty much spot on.

Hone Harawira was born angry, from the womb of an angry woman. And what his latest outburst reveals is that there is among many Maori an abiding and malevolent antipathy towards Pakeha, which is far more widespread than we’re prepared to acknowledge, and which no amount of monetary and land compensation, special treatment and political cuddle-ups is going to change.

To make matters worse, there is a corresponding bitter antagonism to Maori on the part of many Pakeha, who deeply resent the money, land and special treatment given to Maori and whose anger grows exponentially with every new concession. This, too, is far more widespread than most people care to admit.

And don’t tell me I exaggerate: I have a finely tuned intuition and live in a city where at least a third of the population is Maori.

Yet we continue with a policy of separatism – you might even call it apartheid – the latest example of which is Tariana Turia’s Whanau Ora scheme to give Maori sole control of their community services.
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November 20, 2009 9:07am
Brian Smaller

Chthoniid – I am not sure what type of bird that is but it should be called an ETS Bird – it comes with a huge bill.
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November 20, 2009 9:10am
Captain Crab

Yes Tauhei, you could tell there was a strong Bond between them. Treasury Bond that is…
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November 20, 2009 9:15am
dime

hey mickey, i like how you use the old left wing trick of speaking for “kiwis”.

the exchange rate is killing kiwi businesses?? do you mean exporters?? cause Dime the importer is a happy chappy!

i think we have both made the same posts before?!?! is the 20th of every month “the exchange rate is too high” day?

imo 65 cents would be nice for both importers and exporters…
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November 20, 2009 9:21am
Murray

A “finely tuned intuition” which means I don’t have to give you any actual data, I’m just right.

Try that with an academic paper and see how far you get.
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November 20, 2009 9:22am
Ryan Sproull

I think he might be exaggerating about the fineness of the tuning of his intuition.

Don’t tell me I’m wrong. I have a nose for these things.
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November 20, 2009 9:24am
Komata

Swiftman

The problem is that in their niavite’ the greens and their accolytes haven’t read the ‘fine print’ which is that UNLESS (and only unless) you are a muslim, when the take-over has occured, irrespective of how nice and supportive you have been towards islam at any point in the past, you are in line for extermination.

It’s always the fine print which is the important stuff – ‘the devil is in the detail’; the Greens simply don’t want to know, evidently believing that giaia will protect them, no matter what.
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November 20, 2009 9:31am
Pete George

Herald Editorial: Major pitfalls in making votes binding

Tomorrow’s march organisers are advocating a different sort of democracy: “direct democracy” in which binding decisions are made by a majority of citizens who bother to vote in referendums.

The issue, in short, was not as straight-forward as the citizens’ initiative pretended. It was a subject better left to elected representatives with the time and interest to study the legal subtleties and social implications.

Rule by referendum would be far more rigid, which is why it is suitable for constitutional arrangements but not for the ordinary grind of good government.

If non-binding referendums have been a recipe for disappointment, binding polls in California have been a fiscal disaster. Many of those marching for direct democracy tomorrow would be the first to regret it.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10610382
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November 20, 2009 9:36am
Brian Smaller

Islam is quite explicit. You are either a Muslim, a slave or dead. Ask any Arab Christian or Zorastrian how much fun it is living as a dhimmi in a Muslim majority country.
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November 20, 2009 9:37am
Dave Mann

Who’s going to be marching tomorrow on the March For Democracy?
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November 20, 2009 9:37am
Murray

My finely tuned BS alarm is going beep beep as well.
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November 20, 2009 9:38am
Pete George

Once again the slogans are simplistic and misleading. It isn’t actually a March for Democracy. It is a:

March For A Different Sort of Democracy Where Different (Unelected) People Will Have More Influence
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November 20, 2009 9:41am
Dave Mann

I wasn’t saying thhe March is BS… I was just trying to get a feel for people’s thoughts. I think I’ll be going, though….
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November 20, 2009 9:56am
Luc Hansen

A quick roundup of news:

1. JK reverting to the old Tina argument, you know,the old whore who rose to fame as a pretty youngster with Maggie Thatcher and who we all though had gone into a well deserved retirement. JK also complained, with stunning insight, that it is a complex problem. Well, currently we resolve a complex problem with a simple solution – the OCR. JK would do well to study this Menckenism: “For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.”

2. Blair officially goneburger from the EU presidency role. Just deserts? Maybe not quite yet. Kick him out of the ME would be a big plus.

3. Talking about the ME, Bibi doing a Blair and talking up a non-existent threat from Iran. Pretty risible stuff from the leader of country with enough legal and extra-legal weaponry to wipe out half the world.

4. Some REALLY good news: evolution, including human evolution, is alive and well and ongoing. But don’t hold your breath for any
more news soon 🙂

5. A question really: is the University of Auckland going to be shamed into sacking Witi as they would any student who tried the same thing in a paper?

Gotta go – grizzly baby
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November 20, 2009 9:57am
Auberon

It was interesting to hear Jolisa Gracewood on National Radio this morning. She said the 16 pieces of plagiarised work in Witi Ihimaera’s Trowenna Sea – which the author has been saying amount to only 0.4% of the work in an effort to dampen down the controversy – were only what she had identified when the issue of the Listener concerned went to press. She has subsequently found others, but didn’t say how many.

I will read this week’s issue of the Listener with great interest. And I await the University of Auckland’s backflip on its so-far inadequate sanctioning of Ihimaera’s actions.
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November 20, 2009 9:57am
Murray

I’ll be particpating in the Roll Over and go Back to Sleepathon for Democracy Dave.

I’d do the same if some Hollywood B actor who just happens to have been born here knocked on my door as well.
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November 20, 2009 9:58am
Redbaiter

Thanks for that opinion Pete. As usual, its worthless left wing bullshit.
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November 20, 2009 9:59am
MyNameIsJack

Here’s one for me old mate redbaiter –

“…anchor Gregg Jarrett waxed on about the crowds former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin had been getting on her book tour. Except it turned out the footage Fox was using at the time was from the 2008 campaign.”

Who woulda thort it – FOX News lying? Where will it end?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/fox-news-rolls-wrong-video-of-palin-crowds-will-heads-roll-too.html
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November 20, 2009 10:01am
stephen

5. A question really: is the University of Auckland going to be shamed into sacking Witi as they would any student who tried the same thing in a paper?

Well, no student is ‘sacked’.
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November 20, 2009 10:03am
PinkGina

Hone Harawira must have woke up on Sunday and thought how fantastic that All Whites were going to South Africa.

And speaking of All Whites the All Blacks forwards named to play England are All White – that hasn’t happened for awhile
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November 20, 2009 10:05am
Pete George

I support the democracy we have Red (with some improvements). A democracy where people and parties with views right across the spectrum have a reasonably equal opportunity to take part. I support the right of Act and the Greens and all other parties to have a say.

What sort of democracy do you want?
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November 20, 2009 10:06am
RightNow

I think the lefties’ love of muslims is purely because they (lefties and muslims) are anti-christian, and this is why I will always think they’re a bunch of hypocrites. With regard to freedom of religion they don’t believe in it at all.
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November 20, 2009 10:06am
philu

i’m gonna go and watch it…

to see the eyes/faces of the rabidly pro-smacking crowd..

(the gimlet-eyed ones..)

i guess the usual suspects will be there..

the destiny church..?..’bishop brian’..?

i wouldn’t be surprised if not many turned up..

it has all the feel/dynamics of an anti-climax/a ‘fizzer’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 20, 2009 10:10am
Redbaiter

“I support the democracy we have Red”

Yes, because there is no democracy. A choice between tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber. Progressive party A or Progressive Party B. You’re a socialist totalitarian. Of course you support it.
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November 20, 2009 10:11am
Redbaiter

“I think the lefties’ love of muslims is purely because they (lefties and muslims) are anti-christian,”

Partly right. The left’s strategy is to break us up into small groups and while we argue amongst ourselves over trifles, they beaver away in the background on their master plan.
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November 20, 2009 10:14am
Pete George

Rightnow, do you think there are no leftie Christians? And no Muslim righties?

Here I am often put in the left box, although the majority of my views match those of DPF who claims to be right.
I am not anti-Christian.
I am not pro-Muslim (I don’t know any Muslims let alone love any).
I believe in freedom of religion and in freedom of non-religion.

You seem to believe in putting all those groups you disagree with in one box. Is that being simple, simplistic or simply a shotgun putdown?
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November 20, 2009 10:17am
Ryan Sproull

Red, believe me, leftists are always breaking up into small groups and arguing over trifles.
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November 20, 2009 10:19am
grumpyoldhori

The All Whites to SA, I noticed some yank living in NZ wrote to a newspaper complaining about the white power signs at the cake tin.
Good thing that sensitive septic did not come across the black is thicker than blood signs.

Jeez, I wish people would find out the bloody context of those signs before whining about them.
Heh, wonder how the white power signs will go in SA when the NZ soccer team is playing.
White is thicker than blood ? 🙂
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November 20, 2009 10:20am
stephen

Hasselblad introduces 50 megapixel camera holy crap

Is this what they strap onto satellites?
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November 20, 2009 10:20am
MT_Tinman

Swiftman the infidel (89) Vote: Add rating 5 Subtract rating 2 Says:
November 17th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

edited out

..eh..?..

phil(whoar.co.nz)

“Swiftman the infidel (89) Vote: Add rating 6 Subtract rating 3 Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 8:57 am

Greens formula:

Western values = evil

Everything else = good”

Just thought I’d mention it.
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November 20, 2009 10:20am
Pete George

True to form Red you avoid saying what “democracy” you want but sticking to your usual baseless attacks. You seem to be too busy (for the past ten years) attacking what you don’t like so you don’t think about what you do like. Or you haven’t the courage to come out and say what it is you want.
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November 20, 2009 10:21am
Luc Hansen

# RightNow (421) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 3 Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am

I think the lefties’ love of muslims is purely because they (lefties and muslims) are anti-christian, and this is why I will always think they’re a bunch of hypocrites. With regard to freedom of religion they don’t believe in it at all.

*********************************************

Interesting POV – a belief in religious freedom allied with hatred of another religion. To me, it’s just racism wrapped up in in plain packaging.

It’s not religion, stupid, it’s human rights (Hat tip to Bill)
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November 20, 2009 10:21am
Patrick Starr

“You seem to believe in putting all those groups you disagree with in one box. Is that being simple, simplistic or simply a shotgun putdown?”

– whereas Pete is offering 3 boxes
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November 20, 2009 10:23am
RightNow

Obama claims to have saved many many jobs in the US with his stimulus programs, but has been caught out.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/jobs-saved-created-congressional-districts-exist/story?id=9097853
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November 20, 2009 10:23am
Brian Smaller

Luc Hansen – not sure I get your last post. Are you sayig that being anti-Islam is a cover for racism?
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November 20, 2009 10:25am
Pete George

He could always put his own explanation on it Patrick. If he has one to offer. Or his he also too busy attacking to have thought that far?
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November 20, 2009 10:25am
grumpyoldhori

Yep, what we need is direct democracy in NZ, then we can all vote for a 2% total tax take.
Of course libertarians bludging at our universities would then whine that the tax rate needs to be raised to pay for their education.
NZ, our motto, let hypocrisy reign.
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November 20, 2009 10:27am
Chthoniid

No, Hassleblad (or ‘blad to afficiendos) is merely a medium-format system. It uses a large sensor than SLRs (36×24). The advantage of such systems is typically that they create images that can be printed to a very large size, free of noise (the pixel-sensors can be larger). The catch is that the cameras aren’t very portable, and are often restricted to studio type settings.

Full-frame DSLRs are already operating at 21-25MP, so 40-50 on medium format is fine. You need a lot of computing power however.

Note that just adding more mega-pixels has effects on image quality. The individual pixel sensors have to get smaller, which means the image has more ‘noise’ (random colour artifacts). This effect can be reduced by applying a stronger AA filter in front of the sensor. But the filtering of the noise also reduces the captured detail. Some of the latest APS DSLRs that are at 15-18MP are in fact, worse off for noise than older models.
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November 20, 2009 10:28am
llew

mmmmm… trifles…..
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November 20, 2009 10:34am
RightNow

Pete, actually I know a lot of christians that are politically oriented to the left and who have no hesitation in engaging with muslims and other religions (my parents are prime examples). It is possible to have many viewpoints and still reconcile them, I do it myself with my parents’ christian beliefs against my atheism.
I maintain though that irrational anti-christian sentiment is rife in hardline lefties.
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November 20, 2009 10:38am
RightNow

Luc,”interesting POV – a belief in religious freedom allied with hatred of another religion. To me, it’s just racism wrapped up in in plain packaging.

It’s not religion, stupid, it’s human rights (Hat tip to Bill)”

I don’t really think they believe in religious freedom at all, and that is my point. It’s not human rights, it’s hypocrisy. (Hats off to (Roy) Harper)
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November 20, 2009 10:40am
stephen

Oh just medium format allright then. Who the hell would use one of these things?
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November 20, 2009 10:41am
Redbaiter

” me, it’s just racism wrapped up in in plain packaging. ”

Of course you would see it that way, but that’s because you’re an indoctrinated fool falling over yourself in frantic and mindless obeisance to PC Progressive doctrine, and hence too stupid to know the difference between race and religion.
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November 20, 2009 10:44am
grumpyoldhori

RightNow nope dear boy, I have rational anti religious beliefs.
Far too many in this country believe that others should not have freedom from relgion.
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November 20, 2009 10:49am
Pete George

I maintain though that irrational anti-christian sentiment is rife in hardline lefties.

There could be (I don’t know) – but that is quite different from your previous statement.

Irrational anti-ism seems rife in hardliners no matter what their political spectrum.
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November 20, 2009 10:49am
Redbaiter

” I maintain though that irrational anti-christian sentiment is rife in hardline lefties.”

They’re called Secular Progressives, and they’re the Third Reich without the Panzer brigades and the Stukas, but with the same desperate obsession of enforcing conformity of thought and speech.
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November 20, 2009 10:52am
Chthoniid

Oh just medium format allright then. Who the hell would use one of these things?

If you want to produce a very large billboard with your product advertised on it, you’re not going to manage it with a point-and-shoot digicam. So MF is pretty much a studio type system. A lot of landscape photographers also use them. But it is a very expensive and heavy way to do photography. They also have quite low shooting speeds.

Sport and wildlife photographers aren’t so keen on MF systems, as they’re too slow and too heavy.
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November 20, 2009 10:55am
Pete George

I found out where Redbaiter gets his inspiration from: http://www.randominsults.net/
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November 20, 2009 10:56am
Ryan Sproull

Cthoniid, did you see the photos of the bats sipping from the pond that an amateur got with motion detectors in his backyard?
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November 20, 2009 10:59am
Pete George

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1213851/Stunning-shots-thirsty-bats-swooping-lick-water-garden-pond.html
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November 20, 2009 11:02am
Chthoniid

Haven’t seen them Ryan- do you have a link? I hang around a couple of photography forums, but obviously miss a lot.

Motion sensors used to trigger cameras have been around for a while, but digital technology is really letting people explore new ways to take photographs. I like film in many ways, but it’s less amenable to some of these experiments.

EDIT: Thanks Pete
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November 20, 2009 11:05am
Ryan Sproull

HE ASKED ME PETE IS YOUR NAME RYAN
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November 20, 2009 11:07am
RightNow

Grumpy, I also have rational anti religious beliefs (and in fact I’m not quite sure what your point is). Freedom from religion is something I believe in too, which makes me all the more dubious of left wingers embracing muslims when it is clear that their religion advocates killing or enslaving non-muslims.
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November 20, 2009 11:07am
MyNameIsJack

Freedom from religion is something I believe in too, which makes me all the more dubious of left wingers embracing muslims when it is clear that their religion advocates killing or enslaving non-muslims.

You are aware, are you not, the Judaism, and thus xtianity, also advocate the same?
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November 20, 2009 11:16am
Ryan Sproull

I don’t know any secular left-wingers who “embrace Muslims” in any way that condones killing or enslaving non-Muslims.
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November 20, 2009 11:17am
Colonel Masters

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1229340/Harriet-Harman-prosecuted-driving-using-mobile-phone.html

“The law banning motorists from using hand-held phones while driving was introduced by the Labour government in 2003.”

Nice catch. I am sure the members of our very disappointing nanny state government will not be similarly embarrassed in the future.
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November 20, 2009 11:21am
RightNow

MNIJ, what a completely retarded statement, in fact it is a fallacy.
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November 20, 2009 11:24am
RightNow

Ryan, I don’t know anyone who owns a submarine.
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November 20, 2009 11:25am
Kris K

I think the point of agreement between Left Wingers/Progressives and Islam is that they both share the common goal of the destruction of Western Judeo-Christian Democracies.

The fact that democracy only really works within a Judeo-Christian framework is also perhaps ONE of the reasons why Christianity and Judaism also come in for attention from those sought on the destruction of western democracy.
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November 20, 2009 11:32am
grumpyoldhori

RightNow as a old fashioned lefty I dislike ALL religions, the whole bloody lot are just a bunch of sects.
Yet, we have right wingers and no doubt some left wingers in this country who believe speaking in tongues is good form.
I would like the to pick the snakes those types believe they should handle, a few Taipans come to mind.
As for the welfare class who belong to the bloody Mormons I would cut their welfare payments by the amounts they give of taxpayers’ money to Salt Lake city.

All Muslims want to kill non believers, I wonder why that bloke from the SI who is a Muslim born in NZ and who served as a rear gunner during WW2 did not take the opportunity to slaughter a few non believers on the airfield when he was seated behind four Browning MGs ?
We better watch that Pakistani cricket team.
Strange how a good Christian who bombed a building in the US is never bought up, why is that ?
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November 20, 2009 11:34am
Kris K

David Farrar: ETS a balancing act – NBR Opinion Piece

http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/david-farrar/david-farrar-ets-a-balancing-act#comment-35651

ETS – Do Nothing Option (my comment on DPF’s article)

• Do nothing and face trade sanctions (and also risk the world actually does heat up quickly as projected) with exports dropping.

The fact that the ETS is based on pseudo science, is being pushed by the corrupt UN, and by socialist ideologues is MORE than reason enough to do nothing. NZers are idiots if we think we have to lead the charge on this. Ultimately the ETS is just a means of funding a non elected, non representative global government which will, among others things, remove the national sovereignty of nation states.
Reject the ETS if you value your freedom and independence!
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November 20, 2009 11:41am
Jack5

New topic for a moment if I may…

Anyone notice the Government appointing a top MSM executive to a power position on the key committee on its broadband policy (link below).

Matthews is a capable guy in this field, and it wasn’t his fault the cable network he began (Saturn) didn’t expand through the cities.

However, after all the cronyism of Labour, and Clark stacking Government boards with party lackeys, we were expecting better of National. This appointment harnesses to the Govt wagon one of the two key MSM forces in NZ.

The link:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3081635/Fairfax-exec-joins-Crown-Fibre-board
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November 20, 2009 11:41am
MyNameIsJack

RightNow (427) Vote: 0 0 Says:

November 20th, 2009 at 11:24 am
MNIJ, what a completely retarded statement, in fact it is a fallacy.

I suggest you go and do what few xtians have ever done – read the bible.
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November 20, 2009 11:42am
RightNow

Grumpy, I don’t actually believe that “All Muslims want to kill non believers”. The problem is that while most may be happy to live side by side with non-muslims, there will be some who do want to kill the infidels.
Now can you explain to me how with your distaste for all religion you’ve become an advocate for Islam?
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November 20, 2009 11:42am
stephen

…how with your distaste for all religion you’ve become an advocate for Islam

You’d have to try pretty hard to set the bar any lower for ataining ‘Advocate’ status.
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November 20, 2009 11:45am
RightNow

MNIJ, why would I want to do that? You presented the fallacy, it’s not up to me to read a book because you can’t string two premises together to reach a valid conclusion. I suggest you need to read up on validity of arguments http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/arg/valid1.php
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November 20, 2009 11:47am
Jack5

Whoops! in my 11.41 post I misread Matthews’ job as chief executive of Fairfax, rather than chief executive of Fairfax’s digital set-up.

Not as blatant an appointment as I thought, but I still think it’s wrong to appoint MSM key staff to such related Govt posts.
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November 20, 2009 11:47am
MyNameIsJack

Kris K preached “The fact that democracy only really works within a Judeo-Christian framework …” try telling that to the ancient Greeks.
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November 20, 2009 11:47am
MyNameIsJack

RightNow (429) Vote: 0 0 Says:

November 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am
MNIJ, why would I want to do that? You presented the fallacy, it’s not up to me to read a book because you can’t string two premises together to reach a valid conclusion

As i thouht, you’ve never read the bible, so you don’t know shit.

How many citations would you like?
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November 20, 2009 11:49am
Redbaiter

“as a old fashioned lefty I dislike ALL religions”

Except for the religion of Socialism.

That fraudulent ideology that promises its gormless believers Utopia and in the end, brings them death starvation poverty and destruction.
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November 20, 2009 11:52am
RightNow

MNIJ, another wrong conclusion. Why don’t you buy a clue?
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November 20, 2009 11:53am
Jack5

The Muslim apologists are out again today in General Debate.

Let’s cut to the key problem between Islam and the West: the treatment of the half of the human race that is female.

Burquas, veils, women shut out of schooling in fundamentalist Islam countries….

Barbarians! But where are the militant feminists on this? Like other stunted leftists they hate the West more than they hate Islam’s moral and intellectual enslavement of women.

Also, when the Muslim apologists among leftist Westies dredge up the Dark Ages, and ignore the role of Byzantium and even Irish monasteries in keeping the flames of Western civilisation alive, they imply Islam provides a reasonable milieu for science.

Yet Islam does not accept Darwin’s theory of evolution, and Islamists have problems with the theory that is shared within Christianity only by the most fundamental sects.

How many books are being translated from the bubbling West’s core language, English, into Arabic, the core language of Islam? I bet it’s far fewer than are being translated into Braille.

Face it: communism is dead, socialism is dying, so the political retards are toying with Islam.
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November 20, 2009 12:03pm
MyNameIsJack

RightNow, explain these passages.

Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: “When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.”
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November 20, 2009 12:08pm
getstaffed

Phil Goff is correct in addressing the Reserve Bank’s statutorily imposed obsession with inflation.

I wouldn’t leave Phil Goff in charge of the kid’s lunch money. No one can take his vacuous piffle seriously, more so when it relates the principles that underpin our economic performance.
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November 20, 2009 12:11pm
Kris K

RightNow 11:42 am,

Grumpy, I don’t actually believe that “All Muslims want to kill non believers”. The problem is that while most may be happy to live side by side with non-muslims, there will be some who do want to kill the infidels.
Now can you explain to me how with your distaste for all religion you’ve become an advocate for Islam?

While I agree with you that APPARENTLY ‘not all Muslims want to kill non believers’, I would argue that if they were Christians we would call them luke warm Christians (perhaps even non Christians). Or those that reject the fundamentals of their faith. All good Muslims MUST adhere to the teachings of the Koran, and the example set by Mohammed.
This is all so called radical, or good, Muslims are doing – adhering to the teachings of their faith. Islam also practices ‘peace’ with their enemies until such time as they become a force to be reckoned with. So our moderate, or ‘luke warm’, Muslims are perhaps really just radicals awaiting to reach critical mass within the societies which host them.

I tend to think that most Muslims fit into this latter category – sleeper radicals biding their time.
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November 20, 2009 12:11pm
cha

Cthoniid, did you see the photos of the bats sipping from the pond that an amateur got with motion detectors in his backyard?

No, but fellatio by fruit bats prolongs copulation time.

We found that female short-nosed fruit bats C. sphinx lick their mate’s penis regularly during copulation, and that each second of licking results in approximately 6 extra seconds of copulation. Copulations also last longer if licking occurs than when no licking takes place.

And if you want to bypass the article and go straight to the bat porn here’s the video.
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November 20, 2009 12:15pm
Swiftman the infidel

This is just a TINY sample:

“Building peace needs work at every level. It is not just the absence of violence, but the presence of justice and freedom. It will not happen between nations and religions until we have learned to build it between people. And that does not just happen – it needs to be worked at.”
Jeanette Fitzsimons 12/9/01

“New Zealand should condemn the dawn raids on Australia’s Muslim community, Green Party Foreign Affairs spokesperson Keith Locke said today.”The Bali bombing cannot justify Australian police terrorising Muslim families in Australia,” said Mr Locke. New Zealand should caution Australia about being caught up in the anti-Islamic hysteria flowing out of recent terrorist incidents. It was a huge over-reaction for the Australian police to sledgehammer their way into people’s homes waving around pistols and sub-machine guns. It seems people are being raided merely because of allegations they have associated with Islamic fundamentalists.”
Keith Locke 2002

“There’s really no difference between providing a mosque and, say, a cricket pavilion,” said Ms Turei, the Green Party Spokesperson on Education, Ethnic Affairs and Immigration. Not everyone plays cricket, not everyone is Muslim – but both are extra-curricular needs that can be met by schools so students can develop as rounded and un-alienated individuals… Ms Turei insists that the provision of a prayer room does not disturb the principle of secular education because students are not being given religious instruction. A room for people to practice their religion is not the provision of religious education, which is not appropriate in state schools.”
Metiria Turei 2004

“Whether the London bombings were carried out by Christians, Moslems or atheists is beside the point. They came out of extremist politics, not the tenets of any world religion. The London atrocities had nothing to do with the Islamic religion, which is a peaceful creed…We must unflinchingly support the Moslem people of New Zealand…
Keith Locke 2005

“Muslims in Australia feel under siege today, and we do not want to see that happen here. We have a much more tolerant climate in New Zealand. Tomorrow there will be a celebration in Parliament marking the end of Ramadan – a month of prayer and positive reflection; one of whose themes is peace. However, we cannot rest on our laurels…Prejudice towards Muslims is a by-product of the so-called war on terror spearheaded by the Bush administration and implemented in a repressive legislative form by George Bush’s allies, particularly John Howard and Tony Blair. We have some bad legislation of our own, such as the Terrorism Suppression Act of 2002 that is now being reviewed by this Parliament… A second and related goal of the Green Party will be to promote racial and religious tolerance, particularly towards Muslim people whose religion has been so negatively portrayed by such people as the leader of New Zealand First, Winston Peters. Associated with this, we will be trying to get people to understand the roots of small group terrorism of the al-Qaeda type. That has nothing to do with religion itself, but very unfortunately it draws adherents out of the political, social, and economic crisis – and injustice suffered by many people in the Islamic world, particularly in places like Palestine.”
Keith Locke 2005

“The Green Party has condemned Peters’ call for Islamic leaders to dob in dangerous members of their community. This is an insult to the Muslim community,” Human Rights Spokesperson Keith Locke says. There is no more evidence of ‘extremism’ among Muslims than there is among Christians, Jews, Hindus or atheists. Mr Peters slanders Muslim leaders when he accuses them of tolerating dangerous people in their community.”
Keith Locke 2005

“The Immigration Service must stop targeting Muslim New Zealanders when they return to the country, Green Party Immigration Spokesperson Keith Locke says.”
Keith Locke 2005

It hurts Muslims deeply that Islam is being portrayed as a violent religion… Muslims are no different from any other religious community in that they are more open to criticism when it comes from those sympathetic to the way Islam, like other world religions, contributes positively to community life. Unfortunately, most New Zealanders still treat Islam as a somewhat backward religion, and little appreciate its goodness and diversity… They were hardly alone in the community in not fully appreciating the international context of the Muslim reaction — of Muslims being put down by the governments, armies and, indeed, people of the West.
Keith Locke 2006
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November 20, 2009 12:18pm
Jack5

Luc Hansen, at 10.21, dredges up the old chestnut of racism as the reason people oppose Islam.

Yeah, that’s why white Muslims and white non-Muslims slaughtered each other in Bosnia.

That’s why white infidel Russians and white, Muslim Chechens slaughtered each other. (As an African American observed, people don’t come more Caucasian than Chechens and other peoples from the Caucasus).

Luc Hansen repeatedly sidesteps and dodges questions about Islam’s treatment of females as second class people, then denies he has avoided answering before makaing a new post.

Luc surely you aren’t into Islam for the bullshit about a sex squad of virgins awaiting you on the Other Side?

An on the racism, Luc, tell us where the derogatory word for black Africans, “kaffir”, comes from?
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November 20, 2009 12:22pm
Chthoniid

The bat post appeared almost a month ago in sciblogs (http://sciblogs.co.nz/code-for-life/2009/10/28/fellatio-by-fruit-bats-prolongs-copulation-time/) 🙂
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November 20, 2009 12:24pm
Kris K

MyNameIsJack 11:47 am,

Kris K preached “The fact that democracy only really works within a Judeo-Christian framework …” try telling that to the ancient Greeks.

Most functional modern day democratic societies spring from a Judeo-Christian foundation.
For example; Israel – the only democracy in the Middle East, and most of what are/were Christian nations – Europe, the US, etc., form the backbone of western type democracies.
As these nations throw off their Judeo-Christian heritage they also start to flounder as democracies and become ripe for takeover by other ideologies (Socialism, Communism, Islam, etc.).

Don’t we see this process at work in our very own nation?
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November 20, 2009 12:25pm
getstaffed

RightNow, explain these passages.

Oooo, I can do that. They’re in the Old Testament. Being a Christian is all about becoming more like Christ. The story of his life and followers is in the New Testament. I think the world would be a better place if more of us became more like Him: Humble, honest, compassionate, real etc

But if you do insist on picking our single verses in a lame attempt to discredit Christianity then why not use the New Testament, Matthew 27:5 (‘Judas hung himself in the potters field’) as an endorsement of suicide.
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November 20, 2009 12:25pm
Jack5

Re Cha and Chthoniid’s fellating fruit bats!

Is that why they hang upside down? They’re just thoroughly satisfied?
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November 20, 2009 12:28pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, I don’t know anyone who owns a submarine.

I won’t ask you about the habits and beliefs of submarine owners, then.
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November 20, 2009 12:29pm
Ryan Sproull

It’s interesting how people are so eager to claim commonly valued people and institutions for their own, in arguments of ideology. And eager to associate the other with commonly hated people and institutions.

“We all like democracy, yes? Well, democracy comes from people agreeing with me about God. We all hate Hitler, yes? Well, Hitler comes from people disagreeing with me about God.”

Those words could be spoken by an atheist or a Christian with equal conviction. (Not every atheist, of course, nor every Christian.)
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November 20, 2009 12:36pm
Fletch

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

The short one –

The passage neither states nor implies rape. Just the opposite. The required waiting/mourning period before MARRYING her would seem to indicate that the woman was not exactly struggling – though as a captive she is ipso-facto not free but under compulsion.
Interestingly, the same law also forbids the man from ever selling her, enslaving her, or even divorcing her against her will under any circumstances. What’s more, the whole tenor of the passage evinces a dim view of the practice, discouraging it while granting it as a concession to human nature and the desperate circumstances of the times.

The long one –

The author would seem to think that the mere record of an act implies that God condones the act.

-He seemes to think that punishing sin is sinful.
Punishing sin does not make God unjust, but just. Punishing sin in kind, where people reap what they sow, and reap with interest, is not only just, but profoundly (and poetically) just.

-He only sees sin in individualistic terms. There is, however, always a corporate/group-aspect to sin as well as salvation in this life, and consequently a corporate/group-aspect to Divine justice in this life.

-He is ignorant of ancient economic and natural circumstances, assuming that slavery is never a necessary evil. However, slavery in ancient subsistence societies was the merciful alternative to genocide or abandonment to death by depravation.

-He simply assumes that all female slaves were sex-slaves, raped at will. Historically, taking female captives as bound maid-servants does not indicate rape, or even sexual relations with their master – though a woman needed children as her old-age pension and if the master would not take her as a concubine or wife for himself or one of his sons – thereby giving her children – she’d try persuade him to give her as a wife to one of his male servants. In Israel, Deuteronomy 21 put significant restrictions on the treatment of female captives: there was no dragging them off to your tent and forcing their legs apart. The master could only bed them if he wed them; he had to let them mourn their dead relatives for a month before wedding them, and he could never divorce a captive-bride against her will. There is no indication that Israelites ever believed that physically forcing a woman to have sex against her will was ever appropriate or righteous.
Also, a marriage or concubinage contract that the bride refused to consummate would be annulled. A wife or concubine who later denied her husband’s conjugal rights and gave no indication of relenting would be divorced.
– “Take” does not imply force or lack of cooperation. Last night I took my wife to the movies and then carried her off to bed. The author of the article would insist that means I abducted her and raped her, never mind the fact that it was a chick-flick she begged me to take her to see, and she fell asleep in the car on the way home and I literally had to carry her to bed.

– The author assumes marriage to captives were always forced (a form of bride-stealing) and were ipso-facto rape, and that as such can never be justified. However, there are many things worse than compulsory concubinage and marriage, most notably death, damnation and the Old Testament equivalent of damnation: extinction – the end of a bloodline. I’m sorry ladies, Biblically posterity trumps “choice” as a greater good, and it is better that a woman live and bear children (whether she wants to or not) by her captor/master who provides for her and their children, than that she should be killed, die of want, or survive as a temple-prostitute. (Please note the comparative clause at the end. Ancient choices were severely limited by the harshest economic and natural realities. I’m not suggesting it would be better for a girl to marry and have children by the varsity FOOLback who date-raped her on prom-night, than to go to college, study medicine, and become a top-flight neurosurgeon – it would, however, be better than her going to Law School and becoming another shrill feminist attorney :p )

– Forced marriage and even forced sex within marriage – however deplorable by modern standards – is not rape, at least in an age where reproduction and provision and protection of one’s young is the first duty of every man and woman not just to each other but to all their ancestors, relatives, and descendants. And then, as now, both spouses had conjugal rights – i.e., neither’s body was entirely his or her own, but both belonged to both.

– Marriage and (for the unmarriageable) concubinage were practical matters and necessities of life, not personal lifestyle choices or matters of romance. People generally had fairly few options as to who they would or could be mated with, and the final decision was usually up to others, and marriages were between families and whole lineages, not individuals.

– Sexual needs are real; sexual desires in both sexes are relentless and have little to do with love and compatibility and everything to do with fertility and genetic programming, and, in an age before effective contraception, satisfying them invariably led to children – children who needed both mother and a father desperately. Ancient women understood this even better than ancient men.

– In ancient times, virtually all virgins knew themselves to be in the same predicament as most 40-something female divorcees with kids are today: their criteria for a husband: “You’ve got a job, a house, a car, a Gold Card, no communicable diseases, you’re not a drunk, and you won’t beat me? GREAT! You’re hired!”

– At the heart of the author’s objections is the presumption of a feminist value system, that women should not be expected (or expect themselves) to submit to and yield to their husbands and parents (bosses, employers, professors, policemen, bureaucrats, government agents, officials and office-holders are okay though) and that being married, having sex, and having a baby are all independent of each other, and that all (especially the last one) are exclusively the woman’s own choice and solely subject to her own plans, whims, desires, ambitions, fantasies, and convenience. This is but a modern luxury that less affluent societies could in no way afford. It may in fact soon prove that this one can’t afford it either.
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November 20, 2009 12:41pm
grumpyoldhori

Kris K You seem confused, parts of Turkey are in the Middle East, Turkey is a democracy.
I do admit that the Turks are a touch annoyed at the Israelis for using Gaza women and children as target practice even though the majority were only Muslims.
Maybe Israel will have a crack at the Turks, now that would be amusing.
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November 20, 2009 12:42pm
Kris K

Ryan,

I don’t really see the point you’re trying to make in your 12:36 pm comment.
Perhaps you would clarify for us.
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November 20, 2009 12:43pm
Jack5

New topic for a minute….

Witi Ihimaera’s copying seems even worse than first revealed (see link below).

C’mon Witi, give back the $50,000 Arts Foundation “laureate” award.

Ihimaera is a professor of English and a “Distinguished Creative Fellow in Maori Literature” at the University of Auckland.

The link:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10610510
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November 20, 2009 12:44pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan,

I don’t really see the point you’re trying to make in your 12:36 pm comment.
Perhaps you would clarify for us.

I’ve just often observed this phenomenon. People want big hitters on their side, and no matter what their belief, they will find a way to argue those big hitters on to their side. Christians say Jesus was God, Hindus say Jesus was one of many incarnations of God, Muslims say Jesus was a prophet of Allah, secular humanists say Jesus was a human moral teacher, and so on. Everyone does the opposite with Hitler.

And they also seem to do it with things like democracy. Because democracy is another big hitter in these arguments – it’s something people on both sides of arguments value. So Christians say democracy came from Christianity and secularists say democracy came from breaking free of Christianity, and so on.

It’s just fascinating.
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November 20, 2009 12:50pm

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