General Debate 11 November 2009

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Grant Michael McKenna

What says more about the West: that we refrain from an anti-Muslim backlash, or that progressives are convinced that one is about to happen?
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November 11, 2009 8:08am
billyborker

I dunno Grant, but let’s talk about religion.
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November 11, 2009 8:18am
NOt1tocommentoften

John Key – “I think I speak for all New Zealanders when I say we’re all getting a bit sick of the Hone Harawira sideshow,” he said. “There are some big things going on in New Zealand. That’s where my focus of attention is.” He thought the public would be pleased Mr Harawira had delivered “an apology of sorts, and I’ll leave them to judge the merits of that apology”.

This is b*llshit John Key. We are not getting sick of hearing about it as long as nothing is done. And to say that we’re happy with some sort of apology. Further b*llshit. What sort of spin is that? JK needs to stand up and make a firm stance. A bit of principle Mr Key. It wouldn’t hurt…
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November 11, 2009 8:20am
andrei

JK needs to stand up and make a firm stance. A bit of principle Mr Key. It wouldn’t hurt…

Just what do you expect him to do? Hmmm

Politics is the art of the possible – Hone Harawira hold his seat courtesy of the electors of Te Tai Tokerau and can only be removed next election by them – one way or another.
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November 11, 2009 8:29am
NOt1tocommentoften

Just what do you expect him to do? I’d expect he didn’t use weasle words such as “some sort of an apology” and “we’re all getting a bit sick of HH…” I’m well aware that JK has no ability to formally sanction HH but why not come out and say how apalling his actions have been? They have. He should say so.
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November 11, 2009 8:31am
MikeNZ

Lets Billy
What a great way to start the day off.
This article talks about religion or how in the west some are trying not to make any mention of it.
We here in the benign pacific are luckier than most that we don’t have the numbers to make it an issue.
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=YjVmN2E4MjQwZTZkMDgyNTZiMTIxNzhjYzcxZTAxNzI=

Not1
the email was a private communication and shouldn’t be held up, plus we already know that is the reason the Maori party came into being and that the others think the same way though they voice it differently.
What is significant is that he went awol on our money and should we be allowing any Maori Party members to represent us overseas with their racists outlook and proclivities.
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November 11, 2009 8:34am
jcuknz

I agree with John Key … a private e-mail went public and all the ranters and ravers got going. Honi’s subsequent comment about Phil Goff is an amusing extravagency and he caught a whale with it … Phil Goff is a joke.
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November 11, 2009 8:35am
Pete George

Something Chthoniid touched on yesterday – “Once Muslim communities get a bit of education and economic power, they tend to moderate quickly. It’s no surprise that it is the dark, poor corners of the Muslim world where fanaticism has the deepest hold.”

Afghanistan has a literacy rate of only 28.1% which may explain a lot. And…

For as long as anyone can remember, there was no need for paper money in this remote corner of the Hindu Kush. The common currency was what grew in everyone’s backyard — opium.

When children felt like buying candy, they ran into their father’s fields and returned with a few grams of opium folded inside a leaf. Their mothers collected it in plastic bags, trading 18 grams for a meter of fabric or two liters of cooking oil. Even a visit to the barbershop could be settled in opium.

But the economy of this village sputtered to a halt last year when the government began aggressively enforcing a ban on opium production. Villagers were not allowed to plant their only cash crop. Now shops are empty and farmers are in debt, as entire communities spiral into poverty.

Opium is one of the biggest problems facing this troubled country, because it is deeply woven into the fabric of daily life as well as into the economics of insurgency. Afghanistan supplies 93 percent of the world’s opium, and it is one of the main sources of funding for the growing Taliban movement.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32258924/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/
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November 11, 2009 8:36am
jcuknz

From what I have seen and heard of Mr Harawira I imagine he went to the conference, heard all the whities talking back and forth for several days and realised his presence wouldn’t make any difference so why not do something useful in his life .. so he went to Paris.
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November 11, 2009 8:42am
MikeNZ

Funny how there has been no call for Chris Carter and other Labour members to pay back their s[pending on travel.
They haven’t really been pinged for their travel spending by our media have they?
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November 11, 2009 8:44am
Pete George

Another take on that jcuknz is that Harawira got bored not getting any attention being anonymous in Europe, he seems to thrive on attention here and knows how to generate it.
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November 11, 2009 8:47am
billyborker

MikeNZ, the problem isn’t Islam, it is religion.

In yesterday’s GD I was told that I’d be killed for being an atheist in a Moslem country, and I don’t disagree with that. But not that long ago, the same fate awaited athesists in christian countries too.

Why is it that the religious kill those with whom they disagree? Do you see hordes of atheists demanding death for the religious? I don’t.

Why is iit that only atheists are capable of acting as rational human beings, the irrationaility confined to religion?
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November 11, 2009 8:48am
Murray

I see the zealot bible basher is with us again. Testify Brother Billy!

You don’t look like myopic buffoon at all.
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November 11, 2009 8:51am
hj

The world is much closer to running out of oil than official estimates admit, according to a whistleblower at the International Energy Agency who claims it has been deliberately underplaying a looming shortage for fear of triggering panic buying.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/09/peak-oil-international-energy-agency
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November 11, 2009 8:56am
Leonidas

The phrase: “I don’t give a shit about what New Zealanders think” should never pass the lips of an MP, regardless of hue. It shows utter contempt for the institution which supplies his platform, and casts a poor reflection upon all members. the fact that he has not the intellect to understand that his conduct is un-becoming, or inversely, his comments were of deliberate design illustrates that he is unworthy to take part in the governance of this country. I firmly believe that there should be grounds for the Speaker to dismiss such members for Gross Misconduct.

Having said that, the rest aren’t much better…….
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November 11, 2009 8:56am
democracymum

The Top 10 Ten excuses for Hone’s racism

1. (The PM) His comments were only a little bit racist
2. (The Maori Party)
3. (Maori Party co-vice president) “Hone was provoked by references to his wife”
4. (Hone’s Mother) He was just using your white man’s words
5. (Joris de Bres) “He was exercising his freedom of expression”
6. (The Media) A likeable bloke – a firebrand
7. (Hone Harawira) I only answer to my people
8. (Dr Ranganui Walker) “That’s Hone- he uses rich language”
9. (The Green Party) ???
10. (University Professor Rawiri Taonui) ” A natural overflow of frustrations”

And finally someone telling the truth: Ngapuhi leader David Rankin says the behaviour of Maori MP Hone Harawira has set back race relations 20 years
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November 11, 2009 8:57am
hj

“Ten things the alcohol industry won’t tell you about alcohol”

http://www.child2009.co.nz/assets/presentations/Doug%20Sellman.pdf
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November 11, 2009 8:58am
MikeNZ

Billy
I don’t think you actually want answers, you just want to stir. I won’t take part in your charade.

Here’s my contribution
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/11/ignoring_infiltration.html
The writer makes some interesting comments about why we won’t address the issue as he sees it.
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November 11, 2009 9:00am
PinkGina

Excellent Demo

As was discussed on breakfast this morning, let the process begin

The Maori party will be the biggest losers in Harawira’s racist remarks if the dont get rid of him.

The whole country will rid of any respect they may have had for the maori party if they dont
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November 11, 2009 9:03am
MikeNZ

Demomum
I think Joris de bres should be recalled as he clearly isn’t fit for purpose saying what Hone aid wasn’t racism, he brings the office he holds into contempt and undermines any good work being done by it.
National take note, do not renew his mandate.

That it was a private email he could have said and wasn’t for his office to look at, but to say that what he (Hone) said wasn’t racist is rubbish.
But then the left has always been iffy on black racism.

Pink
I don’t think so as many of the voters of that party think the same way.
That’s why they were formed, to get back what was taken/stolen from them.
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November 11, 2009 9:04am
hj

Note that Maori “only wanted their day in court” but the foreshore and seabed act was “the greatest confiscation in (recent?) history”. They only want their names on the beaches and anyone who doesn’t think that’s a good thing is racist (presumably because they don’t accept that Maori are different?).
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November 11, 2009 9:10am
PinkGina

Agreed Mike

I’m referring to thwe way the rest of NZ will now view the maori party if they dont get rid of him and the ongoing adverse affect on race relations in the country.

If all maori think (rather the talk) like Harawira then we have a major problem
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November 11, 2009 9:11am
MikeNZ

PinkG
Does what the rest of us think of them matter to them?
I don’t think so.
Even though Turia and Pita make pains to come across well and engage, they occupy the same position.
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November 11, 2009 9:15am
philu

“..I won’t take part in your charade..”

promise..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 11, 2009 9:18am
Pete George

I think the key potential backlash with this Harawira “sideshow” will be how much it prompts Key to sideline the Maori Party influence on governance. That is far more important (and will mostly happen beneath the public radar) than what public showing any of the politicians might make.
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November 11, 2009 9:19am
PinkGina

Mike

Respect is a major player here.

MMP goes and so do the maoris

They owe it to themselves to act like everyone else in this country
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November 11, 2009 9:19am
stephen

Goff was pretty impressive on the Harawira thing on Breakfast this morning – like Danyl said this thing is a gift to Goff.
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November 11, 2009 9:20am
philu

“..If all maori think (rather the talk) like Harawira then we have a major problem..”

all those with a brain..and an historical awareness would..

how could they not..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 11, 2009 9:23am
PinkGina

Get into the 21 century philu
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November 11, 2009 9:27am
Brian Smaller

In yesterday’s GD I was told that I’d be killed for being an atheist in a Moslem country, and I don’t disagree with that. But not that long ago, the same fate awaited athesists in christian countries too.

Why is it that the religious kill those with whom they disagree? Do you see hordes of atheists demanding death for the religious? I don’t.

Why is iit that only atheists are capable of acting as rational human beings, the irrationaility confined to religion?

Billy – if we can have this without you going postal it could be a good discussion. I agree with you. I often wonder how people choose which particular bizarre thing to believe in while rejecting all the other bizarre things as untruths.
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November 11, 2009 9:35am
wreck1080

I get sick of those who say, “Oh, don’t worry, thats just Hone”.

Did anyone say when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, “oh, thats just Saddam”.

No, Hone is a racist who hates white people. This is who he is, and he is part of the government that makes decisions on the direction of New Zealand.
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November 11, 2009 9:35am
Murray

How dare those evil white people drag a Stone Age people out the darkness and stop them engaging in their cultural rights of slavery, cannibalism and self destructive inter-tribal warfare after they had done so much for these islands by introducing dogs and rats and defoliating a third of the land area with fire while hunting over half the native species to extinction!

Eat historical awareness and die drug boy.
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November 11, 2009 9:38am
virtualmark

Stephen, I thought the interesting part of the exchange between Paul Henry & Phil Goff on Breakfast this morning was when Paul Henry asked him if he thought there should be one law for all. To which Goff said, basically, yes of course.

Surely the logical next question from Paul Henry should have been along the lines of “So Phil, don’t you think Don Brash may have been on to something with his Orewa speech?”.
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November 11, 2009 9:39am
Chthoniid

Why is it that the religious kill those with whom they disagree? Do you see hordes of atheists demanding death for the religious? I don’t.

The ‘atheist’ communist parties of the 20th C managed to kill quite a lot of people who disagreed with them.
Atheist Bolsheviks demanded the death of priests in Revolutionary Russia and got it.
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November 11, 2009 9:39am
virtualmark

Billy. Hitler was an atheist. So was Stalin. So was Pol Pot.

All three killed an enormous number of people from all manner of religious faiths, because those people either wouldn’t go along quietly with evil deeds, or simply because Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot didn’t like their religious/ethnic background.

So when you say …

Do you see hordes of atheists demanding death for the religious? I don’t

you’re just not looking hard enough. Maybe if you opened both of your eyes you might see things in a more mature light.
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November 11, 2009 9:42am
Leonidas

Goff wouldn’t do a hone……….
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November 11, 2009 9:45am
philu

“..# PinkGina (63) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 11th, 2009 at 9:27 am

Get into the 21 century philu..”

i am fully in the 21st century..in the here and now..

this is our reality..

do you forget the hikoi to wellington..?

do you think that anger just all evaporated..?

these realities must be grasped..and dealt with..

for us to have any hopes for a happy future for new zealand..

and that is just the historical stuff..

in the present..maori are at the bottom of the heap..

..are over the top in all the negative statistics..

..and neither national/nor labour have done s.f.a. to ‘fix’ that..

..so are moari just expected to just accept this..?

..as their future..?

..harawira is a leader..and will be a leader for the forseeable future..

..he has only solidified his hold on his seat..

..and is only touching on what must be dealt with..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 11, 2009 9:46am
andrei

all those with a brain..and an historical awareness would..

Dear Phil – those with historical awareness know that the pre-European Maori were a brutal and barbaric people who slaughtered one another willy nilly. It was a culture where the consequences of women and children falling into the hands of their enemies was so horrific they committed mass suicide to avoid it.

My goodness Phil Europeans did Maori a great favour dragging them out of that ghastly and hellish barbarity.

Modern idiots are sucked into going for this grievance crap which is why we have clowns like Harawira in Parliament.
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November 11, 2009 9:46am
stephen

virtualmark, yes that would’ve been interesting. I think Goff would’ve gone for a bit of nuance (‘there is a difference between ‘common law’ and targetted government programs – which i’m in favour of – so no i don’t agree with the content of the speech’), but getting Goff to say that he thought Hone was a racist and that he’d had a gutsful of this sort of thing was pretty frickin’ significant too.
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November 11, 2009 9:49am
philu

“..Dear Phil – those with historical awareness know that the pre-European Maori were a brutal and barbaric people who slaughtered one another willy nilly..”

andrei..pre-european maori europeans..

were also ‘ a brutal and barbaric people who slaughtered one another willy nilly..”

your point..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 11, 2009 9:52am
stephen

The ‘atheist’ communist parties of the 20th C managed to kill quite a lot of people who disagreed with them.
Atheist Bolsheviks demanded the death of priests in Revolutionary Russia and got it.

You seem close to asserting that they were murderous because they were atheists, and not because they were power crazy wingnuts who happened to be atheists. I suppose it could have been a factor, but a very minor one compared with the main motivation.
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November 11, 2009 9:53am
Repton

Something Chthoniid touched on yesterday – “Once Muslim communities get a bit of education and economic power, they tend to moderate quickly. It’s no surprise that it is the dark, poor corners of the Muslim world where fanaticism has the deepest hold.”

I think the world “Muslim” there is redundant..
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November 11, 2009 9:53am
Murray

Don’t wrestle with a pig andrei.
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November 11, 2009 9:53am
Leonidas

Phileewwww, throwing money at them hasn’t worked. Its up to maori to choose to better themselves. As long as they rely on others for handouts and compensation, their fate will remain unchanged.
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November 11, 2009 9:53am
Murray

Ok so when people with a religion kill its because of that religion, but when people without one kill its because they’re bad and the lack of a faith based system (which is arguable) is just coincidence.

Is that your final answer stephen?
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November 11, 2009 9:55am
llew

I’d expect he didn’t use weasle words such as “some sort of an apology” and “we’re all getting a bit sick of HH…” I’m well aware that JK has no ability to formally sanction HH but why not come out and say how apalling his actions have been? They have. He should say so.

I dunno, putting it this way kind of deflates Hone’s stance. I think Key is pretty clever in this respect.
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November 11, 2009 9:56am
PinkGina

Philu

We learn from the past to make the future better.

Everyone deserves a second chance but not a third including Harawira
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November 11, 2009 9:56am
Pete George

I dunno, putting it this way kind of deflates Hone’s stance. I think Key is pretty clever in this respect.

I agree – this deflates HH’s stance and rightly puts all onus on him and the Maori Party to undeflate it if they choose to.

It’s not for Key to discipline him for this.
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November 11, 2009 10:03am
Murray

Its not for Key to stay in a coalition with a party that has an openly racist stance either Pete.
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November 11, 2009 10:08am
Ryan Sproull

Billy. Hitler was an atheist.

That makes his repeated references to God throughout Mein Kampf a little unusual. Do you have a reference for that claim?
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November 11, 2009 10:10am
stephen

Ok so when people with a religion kill its because of that religion, but when people without one kill its because they’re bad and the lack of a faith based system (which is arguable) is just coincidence.

Is that your final answer stephen?

Eh…i would possibly lean towards their ‘people’s utopia’ as being their ‘faith based system’, really. Is that what you meant be “lack of a faith based system (which is arguable)”?
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November 11, 2009 10:14am
toad

Murray said: Its not for Key to stay in a coalition with a party that has an openly racist stance either Pete.

Yep, safer for him to stick with the parties that have a covertly racist stance.
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November 11, 2009 10:16am
Murray

Not when the majority of your audience is Catholic Ryan. In the same way that Saddam appealed to Islam but was hardly that into it himself.
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November 11, 2009 10:16am
Ryan Sproull

Murray,

Do you have any references for the claim that he was an atheist?
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November 11, 2009 10:17am
Murray

I direct to his behaviour. I’m not your research assistant.
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November 11, 2009 10:19am
Chthoniid

@Stephen

You seem close to asserting that they were murderous because they were atheists, and not because they were power crazy wingnuts who happened to be atheists. I suppose it could have been a factor, but a very minor one compared with the main motivation.

No, I’m trying to point out the absurdity of the ‘atheism good, religion bad’ stance.

But Marx was definitely not a fan of religion 🙂 – and that influenced Communist attempts to (violently) suppress Christianity.
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November 11, 2009 10:20am
Murray

Toad another snide and boder line defamatory claim without substantiation. Make an overt asertion or get back to your filing.

Always ready to throw red herrings into the mix but never quite up to addressing the issue. If you were an independant person it might not matter but you’re a paid party mouthpiece so put up.
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November 11, 2009 10:21am
Brian Smaller

Billy. Hitler was an atheist.

That makes his repeated references to God throughout Mein Kampf a little unusual. Do you have a reference for that claim?

Hitler was very interested in the occult, which to me, as an atheist, just another version of imaginery friends.
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November 11, 2009 10:21am
senzafine

Ok so when people with a religion kill its because of that religion, but when people without one kill its because they’re bad and the lack of a faith based system (which is arguable) is just coincidence.

Murray, i think stephens point is that when religion kills, it uses religion itself (however weak a justification that may be) to justify the killings. A prime example of this would be the Hugenot massacres.

I’m not aware of any such events anywhere where atheists have rounded up an entire religious sect and exterminated them solely because of their beliefs.
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November 11, 2009 10:22am
Brian Smaller

As an aside, did any of you hear the result of a survey in the UK where 25% (or something – i am sure one of the pendatic types here will correct this) of school kids thought that Adolf Hitler was a football manager and that Auschwitz was a theme park?
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November 11, 2009 10:22am
Ryan Sproull

I direct to his behaviour. I’m not your research assistant.

You can’t really direct to his behaviour without falling into the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.

It seems he was brought up Catholic, admired aspects of Protestantism, and promoted Positive Christianity, which was a kind of Nazi Christianity. Can’t find any reason to think he was an atheist.
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November 11, 2009 10:24am
KiwiGreg

“I’m not aware of any such events anywhere where atheists have rounded up an entire religious sect and exterminated them solely because of their beliefs.”

The Holocaust? Or are we back arguing about whether the Germans etc were atheists?
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November 11, 2009 10:25am
starboard

…” hey hone..bro…” kiss my white arse “…
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November 11, 2009 10:25am
Murray

Anyone else not really suprised that Ryan can quote Mein Kampf?
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November 11, 2009 10:26am
virtualmark

Ryan, I think an overall look at Hitler’s view on religion and faith suggest he was all over the map. He recognised that Christianity was a key part of Germany’s heritage, but appeared to only recognise a unique subset of Christian faith which had been shorn of many of its key precepts which, presumably, he’d found objectionable. He recognised the political power the church could deploy in a Western European country, and didn’t want to antagonise them. Based on what I’ve read I’d also hazard a guess that Hitler didn’t believe in a God, as such, as in a specific deity who you could have a personal relationship with.

He also held a range of occultic and paganist beliefs too, albeit less than many of the other senior Nazi’s (particularly Himmler).

I think fair to say Hitler’s main foundation for his beliefs and values (ie his religion) was really all about Germany, and having a total devotion and love and commitment to the Fatherland.

So technically perhaps the best term for Hitler’s personal beliefs then is that he was a syncretist (the everyday term for Hitler’s personal beliefs is that he was a nutcase).

But the term atheist broadly covers that. Atheists believe there are no deities, and reject theism. Within that umbrella definition you have a range of “classes” … the scientific rationalists, the humanists, and many others with their own concoctions of beliefs that still exclude any deity.
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November 11, 2009 10:30am
Ryan Sproull

Anyone else not really suprised that Ryan can quote Mein Kampf?

Grow up, Murray. A simple Google search gives you the full text of any number of books. You can search through for references to God yourself, if you like.
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November 11, 2009 10:31am
Captain Neurotic

Phil has a point – Whilst the Maori were/are barbaric, European’s have a lot of blood on their hands – 100 year war, the Crusades, Agincourt and the Act of Union for both Ireland and Scotland wasn’t exactly obtained peacefully or by any gentleman manner…

HJ – Very interesting lecture, I take it you are from Otago? As a young person/student I’m guilty of associating a good night with binge drinking and when I was younger, like many, I was found in some similar positions – However I do agree that the 5 point plan would combat the drinking problem especially with restricting the sale of alcohol in supermarkets. Whilst it is a great convenience, I know of many times it has got to 2330 and we have run out of booze – ‘ohwell lets go to either countdown or the 247’.

Personally I am skeptical as to whether a price increase would change the situation…. I think it would make those who don’t drink often think twice before buying a drink – but like gambling and smoking a price increase will mean for many families that the children will have to miss another meal because dad needs his Woodstock and bourbon. Those with dependency as we know do not think rationally and they will continue to purchase their drug regardless of social or financial cost to themselves or family.
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November 11, 2009 10:32am
Right of way is Way of Right

Hone Harawira is a joke! He’s an arrogant, bigoted blow hard who seems to think that by being ‘staunch’ it will somehow enhance his mana.

He would do well to observe how others behave.

Spot the difference!

http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll174/Bart1967/?action=view&current=SpottheDifference.jpg
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November 11, 2009 10:33am
Ryan Sproull

So technically perhaps the best term for Hitler’s personal beliefs then is that he was a syncretist (the everyday term for Hitler’s personal beliefs is that he was a nutcase).

But the term atheist broadly covers that. Atheists believe there are no deities, and reject theism. Within that umbrella definition you have a range of “classes” … the scientific rationalists, the humanists, and many others with their own concoctions of beliefs that still exclude any deity.

I think that would be stretching the definition a little too far.

He is quoted as saying, “As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.” Of course, you could dismiss that as playing to an audience, but you could claim that anyone was anything by doing the same.
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November 11, 2009 10:34am
toad

@Murray 10:21 am

Which Party introduced the Foreshore and Seabed Act?

Which Party voted against it because they said it did not go far enough in ensuring Maori rights to the foreshore and seabed were extinguished and then ran the Iwi-Kiwi election billboards?

It seems some of you guys have got it all arsey-boo. While I don’t condone his language, Hone is factually correct when he says:

“White motherfuckers have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries, and all of a sudden you want me to play along with their puritanical bullshit.”

The Foreshore and Seabed Act is merely the latest in a long history of rip-offs perpetrated, both legally and illegally, by colonists and their descendents against Maori.

Who are the real racists here – those who systematically set out to deprive Maori of their land and culture, or those who may use some rather colourful language to describe that?

BTW – I don’t for one moment support Hone rorting the taxpayer on his Paris trip.
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November 11, 2009 10:41am
Ryan Sproull

Murray said:

Toad another snide and boder line defamatory claim without substantiation. Make an overt asertion or get back to your filing.

Then five minutes later:

Anyone else not really suprised that Ryan can quote Mein Kampf?

Sorry, Murray, didn’t realise you were making some kind of joke.
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November 11, 2009 10:43am
MikeNZ

Senzafine

You may well be correct in the term “an entire sect”.
What most people are pointing to is Atheist regimes in the past directing there powers against others and in particular the religious groups in their territory.
It is going on today where authority is directing state and non state actors against a particular religion.
Both these organisations will give you enough info in their e-letters to join the dots.
ww.gfa.ord
www,vom.org
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November 11, 2009 10:45am
Ryan Sproull

If you’re looking for atheist regimes persecuting religious groups, why look further than China today?
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November 11, 2009 10:46am
Cadmus

DPF mentioned in an earlier post women taking over various male roles in employment. In my view if they can do the job I have no problem with that.

Then of course we have our “Token” woman in roles.

I look at the make up of Cabinet we have two women spongers who don’t earn their salary in my book.

Georgina Tehue Hue….. I thought Pita Sharples was Minister of Maori Affairs?what contribution is she making we never hear from her?

Pansey Wong…… Well theres a little Trougher if I ever saw one! A guy in the National Party told me the only reason Wong got a cabinet position was Public Safety !! After seeing Wongs driving ability they believed a chauffeur driven car was the only option, well who could blame them?

Wong & Te Hue Hue are only there in my view for 3 reasons.

They are both women.

They are both from ethnic minorities

They both would be incapable of winning an electorate seat.

So we see that the Media is attacking only male MP’s ….Wow feminism is alive and growing under a National/ACT Govt.

No doubt Burt, Brian Smaller, Adolf F, & Co will be supporting the two National Party Princesses!
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November 11, 2009 10:48am
Murray

“BTW – I don’t for one moment support Hone rorting the taxpayer on his Paris trip.”

Not interested in what he got out of the tough Taod, is he or is he not a racist?

Now lets watch the dance begin trend stetters.
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November 11, 2009 10:55am
hj

“White people have been raping our lands for centuries”

MOA EXTERMINATION
The fastest known extinction of a megafauna …

Moa had only one natural predator – the huge Haast’s eagle (Harpagornis moorei), the largest eagle ever known with a wing span of ten feet and talons as big as tiger’s claws. But life in a bird’s paradise could not last, and after millions of years moas quickly ended up in human cooking pits, and much of their habitat was destroyed by fire.
“… human hunting and habitat destruction drove the eleven species of moa to extinction less than 100 years after Polynesian settlement of New Zealand …”

R. N. Holdaway & C. Jacomb, Rapid Extinction of the Moas (Aves: Dinornithiformes): Model, Test, and Implications, Science, March 24 2000

The Holdaway and Jacomb study explored the impact on moa population of low exploitation levels by an initial population of 100 people, coupled with the habitat loss caused by them. Conservative analysis used low to medium human population growth rates, minimal rates of habitat removal in two areas of the two main islands, and the lowest cropping rates. The total population of all species of moas at the time of human settlement was 158,000 birds, and only consumption of adult moas over one year old was considered. It is known that consumption of moa eggs was considerable, but was ignored in the study.

Moas, like most long-lived birds, were most vulnerable to any increase in adult mortality. When subjected to a low level of human predation, moas required an impossible increase in births to maintain their numbers. Even without habitat loss that is known to have occured during the extinction period, the most conservative analysis suggests that moas were extinct within 160 years of human arrival.

Revised radiocarbon dating of charcoal in campsites, place the earliest arrival of moa hunters, Polynesians who were the ancestors of Maori, in the 13th century instead of the 11th century as previously thought. Archeological research of dismembered moa bones in campsites show that they were not killed after the 14th century. The short period during which moa were eaten out of existence is a mere blink in the geological time of moa life.

In a commentary on the study, Dr Jared Diamond claims that in New Zealand, Madagascar and many Pacific Islands, few would deny that the first arriving humans caused mass extinction, and the only question is how fast it occurred and whether hunting was the only cause. He said the new study “shows that moa extinctions were very fast and were mainly by hunting”.

Dr Ross MacPhee who is a mammalogist at the American Museum of Natural History in New York and has studied ancient extinctions, says “there is no way of interpreting this record other than that it had to happen virtually overnight … this is easily the best instance of overkill, of blitzkreig, on the record”.

http://www.terranature.org/moa.htm
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November 11, 2009 11:06am
toad

@Murray 10:55 am

I would say not. Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

Reminding people that white people have historically ripped off Maori – which is a fact – is not racism. It would become racist if he had asserted that white people were pre-disposed by their ethnicity to rip other people off. But he did not.
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November 11, 2009 11:07am
RightNow

Cadmus your misogyny isn’t welcome, nor is your barely suppressed racism.
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November 11, 2009 11:08am
hj

“In the first half of the nineteenth century, however, individual iwi considered carrying their martial culture beyond the shores of New Zealand. At least three expeditions of conquest were planned: to Samoa, to Norfolk Island, and to the Chatham Islands, which did not become part of New Zealand until 1842. All these proposed expeditions were dependent on finding transport to those places: and that meant finding a European ship’s captain whose vessel was available for charter; or it meant Maori commandeering a vessel for the purpose.

In the event there were no expeditions to Norfolk Island or to Samoa because the necessary transport was not secured. But there was an invasion of the Chathams Islands. Two Taranaki tribes then based in Wellington, Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga ki Poneke, hijacked a European vessel in 1835 and had themselves—a total of 900 people—delivered to Chatham Islands. There they takahi’d or walked the land to claim it; ritually killed around 300 Chatham Moriori out of a total of around 1600, and enslaved the survivors—separating husbands from wives, parents from children, forbidding them to speak their own language or practise their own customs, and forcing them to violate the tapus of their culture, whose mana was based on the rejection of violence.

Was this a superior form of colonisation to that imposed by European on Maori? Did it respect the dignity and customs of the colonised? Did it acknowledge the mana whenua of the tchakat henu or indigenous people of the Chathams? It did not. It was what might now be called an exercise in ethnic cleansing. When Bishop Selwyn arrived in the islands in 1848, it was to discover that the Maori called Moriori “Paraiwhara” or “Blackfellas”; and it was to report that the Moriori population continued to decline at a suicidal rate as a consequence of kongenge or despair. Moriori slaves were not released and New Zealand law was not established on the islands until 1862, twenty years after they had become part of New Zealand. And it is that twenty years of neglect of fiduciary duty on the part of the Crown that is the basis for the Moriori claim to the Waitangi Tribunal, heard in 1994, but still not reported upon. ”
http://sof.wellington.net.nz/origins.htm
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November 11, 2009 11:10am
Scorpio

Pansy is the Electorate MP for Botany.
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November 11, 2009 11:11am
RightNow

toad, if the prevailing position (from the enlightened such as yourself) is that whitey deserves the abuse because of historical grievances then can we assume that treaty settlements and race relations have been a waste of time? Since my childhood it has seemed to be the duty of pakeha to make special allowances for maori because of events that happened long before I was born. Taking your stance in conjunction with Hone’s, I can only assume that no matter what pakeha do in this generation we won’t see any progress towards racial harmony. The question then becomes why bother? I didn’t kill, rape or steal from any maori (although I have previously been bashed by maori, and had property stolen from me by maori).
Racism is deeply embedded in NZ, but it’s the opposite of what you make it out to be.
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November 11, 2009 11:18am
Sonny Blount

Toad, did you not see the poll results of Maori voters.

Green Party 3%

Try something else.
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November 11, 2009 11:19am
hj

@ Toad

”
Reminding people that white people have historically ripped off Maori – which is a fact – is not racism. It would become racist if he had asserted that white people were pre-disposed by their ethnicity to rip other people off. But he did not.”

what about assuming that Maori guardianship of foreshore and seabed is superior to non Maori’s and not fraught with normal human foibles (not to mention assuming a superior relationship with that F & S)?

remember also this is all a matter of “cultural identity”: Margaret Mutu’s mother is Scottish but she sees pakeha opposition to her tribes ownership of foreshore and seabed as based on racism.
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November 11, 2009 11:27am
labrator

@toad I take umbrage at the term “white people” when referring to New Zealand’s colonialists. It’s such an ugly classification and so broad as to be meaningless.
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November 11, 2009 11:29am
Cadmus

Right Now you say…. “your misogyny isn’t welcome”,..Interesting I don’t see you mentioning the same to others concerning Hone Harawira? so whats the difference between Wong and Hirawara ? They both feast from the same trough!
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November 11, 2009 11:32am
Political Busker

Check out the real raids story: Observe how our system works and how it covers itself over to stop the public from using their brains. Simply because you do not rape or pillage, or even act in any way or manner that could be determined as bad behaviour, if you permit and condone its functionality then you are as much a part of its damage as you would be alienated from its purpose.
kiwisfirst.com
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/arrest-made-contempt-case-114740
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November 11, 2009 11:36am
Leonidas

AFAIA, Pansy has not bitten the hand that feeds…..
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November 11, 2009 11:37am
Murray

“@Murray 10:55 am

I would say not. Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

Reminding people that white people have historically ripped off Maori – which is a fact – is not racism. It would become racist if he had asserted that white people were pre-disposed by their ethnicity to rip other people off. But he did not.”

There we go, Green party stance is that Hone has done nothing wrong in terms of racist behaviour. Its ok for Maori to be racist because they are victims.

Lets see how that pans out for you in the polls.
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November 11, 2009 11:43am
Captain Neurotic

Kiwi Greg – Germany under Hitler also killed anybody affiliated to freemasonry, but then like you said we have to assume that the NAZI regime was atheist.
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November 11, 2009 11:43am
Brian Smaller

If you’re looking for atheist regimes persecuting religious groups, why look further than China today?

True Ryan. Millions of Falun Gong adherents would agree with you.
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November 11, 2009 11:47am
Jeff83

More evidence climate change sceptics are just a loony fringe.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/3050131/Ice-shelf-finding-debunks-claims-of-sceptics
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November 11, 2009 11:52am
KiwiGreg

@ Captain Neurotic …and gypsies and gays and German nationals with disabilities. They were bad motherfuckers. All white too.
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November 11, 2009 11:53am
mattyroo

About fucking time – hopefully our judges can have the same testicular fortitude – I will not be holding my breath though!

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/blame-falls-on-drinkers-in-high-court-judgment/story-e6frg6nf-1225796288810
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November 11, 2009 11:56am
Sonny Blount

Jeff83,

Take the political puffery out of the article, and there is no evidence for anthropogenic climate catastrophe.

The science involved is merely about better understanding the mechanisms by which ice sheets undergo melting.

The Ice sheets and glaciers have been melting for 10,000 years and we have previously had ice free poles. As the scientific detail in that article goes to show, the ice cover at the poles has alot to do with geography as well as atmospheric temperature.

We are coming out of an ice age Jeff, the North Sea used to be land, polar bears were in the mediterranean. This is old science, catch up.
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November 11, 2009 11:59am
andrei

More evidence climate change sceptics are just a loony fringe.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/3050131/Ice-shelf-finding-debunks-claims-of-sceptics

Are you bonkers?

Antarctica isn’t melting the way end of the worlders claim it should be so a clutching-at-straws explanation of why it isn’t melting is worthy of an orgasm by those who are vainly clinging onto catastrophism as their last hope in advancing the cause of socialistic world government – all in the name of saving the planet.
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November 11, 2009 12:02pm
Murray

Athiests and gorebul warming alarmists, todays religious fanatics.
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November 11, 2009 12:11pm
Political Busker

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1989/0025/latest/DLM158014.html?search=ts_act_broadcasting_resel&p=1

I reason that the term ‘mother f’r’ is more about a person who cuddles up to their mother’s protection than in fact engage in sexual activity with her. This means, given the legislation that I refer under the Broadcasting Act 1989, that Hone was perfectly correct. Where are men protected to broadcasting in New Zealand? How can this legislation be given entitlement in a gender discrimination free New Zealand? It was interesting that when Kathryn Ryan from Radio New Zealand National, nine to noon, couldn’t get an interview with him, they interviewed his mother.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/20091110
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November 11, 2009 12:11pm
Murray

“I reason that the term ‘mother f’r’ is more about a person who cuddles up to their mother’s protection than in fact engage in sexual activity with her.”

You reason incorrectly. I sugest you look into the meaning of the word “fuck”.
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November 11, 2009 12:12pm
Pete George

John Allen Muhammad, the convicted D.C. sniper, is scheduled for execution in Virginia Tuesday night, after Gov. Tim Kaine (D) denied a request for clemency Tuesday afternoon.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1111/p02s01-usju.html

I have strong misgivings about death penalties, usually, but this would be one of the more deserving of cases.
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November 11, 2009 12:13pm
Brian Smaller

John Allen Muhammad, the convicted D.C. sniper, is scheduled for execution in Virginia Tuesday night, after Gov. Tim Kaine (D) denied a request for clemency Tuesday afternoon.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1111/p02s01-usju.html

I have strong misgivings about death penalties, usually, but this would be one of the more deserving of cases.

I heard he was suffering from Secondary Pre-post traumatic stress disorder.
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November 11, 2009 12:18pm

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