General Debate 9 October 2009

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Chthoniid

Just a couple of small landscape shots of a bush-stream today.

http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v1/p67411673-5.jpg

http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v1/p363481116-5.jpg

I’m afraid these will be the last TGIF shots for a couple of weeks, as I’m heading to Darwin next week. Still trying to get some decent crocodile photos…
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October 9, 2009 8:08am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/a-war-of-absurdity/

“..Every once in a while, a statistic just jumps out at you in a way that makes everything else you hear on a subject seem beside the point ..

.. if not downright absurd.

That was my reaction to the recent statement of the president’s national security adviser, former Marine Gen. James Jones..

.. concerning the size of the terrorist threat from Afghanistan:

“The al-Qaida presence is very diminished.

The maximum estimate is less than 100 operating in the country, no bases, no ability to launch attacks on either us or our allies.”

Less than 100!

And he is basing his conservative estimate on the best intelligence data available to our government.

That means that al-Qaida, for all practical purposes, does not exist in Afghanistan—

– so why are we having a big debate about sending even more troops to fight an enemy that has relocated elsewhere?

Because of the blind belief, in the minds of those like John McCain, determined to “win” in Afghanistan, that if we don’t escalate..

.. al-Qaida will inevitably come back.

Why?

It’s not like al-Qaida is an evil weed indigenous to Afghanistan .. and dependent on its climate and soil for survival.

Its members were foreign imports in the first place..

.. recruited by our CIA to fight the Soviets because there were evidently not enough locals to do the job.

After all, U.S. officials first forged the alliance between the foreign fighters and the Afghan mujahedeen, who morphed into the Taliban ..

.. and we should not be surprised that that tenuous alliance ended.

The Taliban and other insurgents are preoccupied with the future of Afghanistan ..

.. while the Arab fighters couldn’t care less .. and have moved on to more hospitable climes.

There is no indication that any of the contending forces in Afghanistan, including the Taliban, are interested in bringing al-Qaida back.

On the contrary, all the available evidence indicates that the Arab fighters are unwelcome..

.. and that it is their isolation from their former patrons that has led to their demise..”

(now..don’t the government armchair-warriors/war-mongers tell us that we have to be there ‘to stop the tewwowists’..?

um..!..

it would seem they have gone elsewhere..

eh..?

so..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz.)
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October 9, 2009 8:24am
barry

Can anyone tell me if Chris Carter has gone to Vanuatu on a Disasater tourism trip following the earhquake there (as a follow up to his Samoa trip)

And in light of DPF’s support for Chris’s travels – has he taken DPF with him this time as his (cough, cough) interpreter/travel assistant.

Or are there no air points available on the Vanuatu sector……………..
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October 9, 2009 8:42am
getstaffed

From Maxim Institute newsletter

Forgiveness isn’t a soft option
We often think forgiveness is a “weak” response when someone has wronged us. But according to an article titled “Healing interpersonal wounds: A case for forgiveness” by Myron and Genista Friesen, forgiveness can be an extremely helpful way to respond to the inevitable relational hurts that will occur in our lives. They say that research seems to indicate this response can have relational, psychological and physical benefits. Friesen and Friesen describe forgiveness as “a process of motivational and emotional transformation, whereby a victim’s initial anti-social emotions and motivations like hatred or revenge, are transformed into more relationship-constructive inclinations ….” Citing international research, they argue that “…people with a greater disposition towards forgiveness have lower depression, anxiety, social dysfunction and somatic symptoms ….”

It is important to recognise that forgiveness and reconciliation—the “restoration of a relationship”—are not the same thing. The two can often be conflated, but it is significant to note that “forgiveness can take place without reconciliation.” Recognising that forgiveness does not have to lead to an ongoing relationship can allow a victim to feel more liberated to be able to forgive, without risking ongoing hurt. While more research is needed to explore the consequences of forgiveness, it seems that there is good reason to make room for it in our culture and in our individual relationships.

When someone has hurt us, it can seem absurd or impossible to forgive, but it seems that the benefits of forgiveness stretch beyond mere peace of mind. Learning how to forgive is difficult so it is important that we foster a culture where forgiveness is seen as a legitimate and helpful way of responding to hurt, rather than as a “weak” response.
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October 9, 2009 8:46am
XChequer

getstaffed – citing any report from the Maxim institute always seems to me to be a double edged sword. There is a tinge of fundamentalism about those people that gives me the chills. Their prose on their website is full of good and worthy goals yet underlying this seems to be an agenda not implicit in the material.

I could be completely wrong here, but is there just a little bit more than a religious agenda here?
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October 9, 2009 8:59am
cha

Thugs attack two transvestites… who turn out to be cage fighters wearing fancy dress

Two thugs who attacked what they thought were a pair of transvestites picked on the wrong men – when their intended victims turned out to be cage fighters on a night out in fancy dress.

Dean Gardener, 19, and Jason Fender, 22, singled out the two men walking along a street in wigs, short skirts and high heels.

Bare-chested Gardener was caught on CCTV confronting one of the men in a pink wig, black skirt and boob tube – then seen swinging a punch, a court heard.

But the other cage fighter, wearing a sparkling black dress and matching long wig, sprang to his friend’s help, delivering two lightning-quick punches to the two stunned yobs.

The cage fighters were then seen teetering away in their high heels, stopping only to pick up a clutch bag they dropped during the melee.

Gardener and Fender were left dazed and seen staggering to their feet after their failed attack.
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October 9, 2009 9:07am
Ryan Sproull

I won’t hold my breath for the Maxim Institute applying that noble sentiment to the justice system.
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October 9, 2009 9:08am
getstaffed

XChequer – disagree re Maxim. I think they’ve been unfairly branded by NZ’s very vocal social liberals. That people would read the DomPost with an open mind, but turn up their noses at anything from Maxim is, IMO, evidence of this branding. Review, critique and make your own judgement.
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October 9, 2009 9:10am
cha

Bugger, DPF beat me to it.
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October 9, 2009 9:14am
getstaffed

Ryan – no that would take to long. Try using it more in your personal life. I found forgiving people to be very liberating for me and, oddly enough, the other party experiences the same thing.
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October 9, 2009 9:17am
XChequer

getstaffed – of course its liberating for the people you have forgiven – they just got away with whatever they had done!
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October 9, 2009 9:25am
Patrick Starr

“All 8500 prisoners in the New Zealand prison system eat halal-certified meat, despite only 82 prisoners identifying themselves as Muslim”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10602130

ummm – why?
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October 9, 2009 9:29am
Brian Smaller

All 8500 prisoners in the New Zealand prison system eat halal-certified meat, despite only 82 prisoners identifying themselves as Muslim”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10602130

ummm – why?

They should eat whatever food is cheapest to provide – if that includes pork – too fucking bad. They can starve or eat bread and jam.
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October 9, 2009 9:36am
getstaffed

ummm – why?

Perhaps those fine cuts compliment the organic vegetables (served with aged balsamic reduction of course) and cellared wines?
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October 9, 2009 9:42am
Patrick Starr

too right brian
i would have thought Kashin and the Kaimanawa horse cull would have kept them in supplies for a few years
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October 9, 2009 9:44am
getstaffed

XChequer – We have a justice system for punishing. If the cost of me ‘punishing’ someone personally is withholding forgiveness, with the contingent impact on my health, wellbeing, stress levels etc, then the cost it too high!
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October 9, 2009 9:45am
village idiot

XChequer – Maxim is as you suspect.
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October 9, 2009 9:47am
virtualmark

Luc,

“someone who posts a long diatribe demonising Palestinians and finding no fault with the other side deserves to be patronised” … Luc, I pointed out a series of provable historical decisions the Palestinians had made. Provably poor decisions. And I suggested this showed a tendency towards not being constructive. If you think that’s “demonising” them then you have a thin skin.

And as for not finding fault with the other side … I am no one-eyed supporter of Israel. Israel has visited many ills against the Palestinians. I have no problem saying that – and said it in earlier posts. Again, if you think that’s “finding no fault with the other side” then your viewpoint is so skewed as to be blind.

Do I support a two-state solution as per UNSC242? Yes but. Yes, I support UNSC242 as a basis for a cessation of hostilities between Israel and the Arab combatants in the Six Day War. Yes, as the basis for a “land for peace” deal. But:
* The 1949 borders are, in some places, an unworkable basis for a lasting settlement and so any Israeli withdrawal is unlikely to be strictly back to the 1949 borders. Perhaps some compensation may have to be paid to balance the detail there.
* I don’t, and neither do most people, adopt the Arab interpretation that “land for peace” means first Israel must give back the land and then second the Arabs will enter into peace negotiations. I think those two things have to be contemporaneous.
* I note that Israel has delivered on UNSC242 with both Egypt & Jordan. There are clear signals that some sort of deal is being struck with Syria and I expect a similar “land for peace” settlement with them in the next 2 years.
* UNSC242 still leaves rather unclear the status of the Palestinians. The peace deal with Egypt, for example, saw Israel concede the Gaza strip but Egypt not claim it. So the Palestinian state issue is still less than clear.

And, as I’ve said before, I think a Palestinian state would be an illusory outcome because it does not have the ability to stand independently of Israel.

As for atheism … how about we acknowledge there’s atheism (little a) which is a simple belief that there is no god/gods. And Atheism (big A) which starts from the foundation of atheism and then fashions a set of beliefs and philosophy over the top of that, drawing on humanism, rationalism etc etc.

There is no such thing as an absence of belief. Everyone believes in something. Everyone bases their personal morals and values on a belief system. Atheism is one option. The various religious faiths are other options. You are naive if you think there is such a thing as “no belief”.

That said, based on your posts to date I do certainly believe you are naive.
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October 9, 2009 9:54am
gravedodger

A lovely morning here in Akaroa with temp 7 degrees, raining, snow on the harbour rim and vis at about 500 meters. More evidence of changimg weather patterns indicating climate change-not. And a morning like this really brings home the advantages of daylight saving, so much more daylight time tonight to watch the rain. Grmmp.
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October 9, 2009 10:05am
stephen

Posting that at 10-05am as you were gravedodger I doubt an hour of daylight savings makes much a of a dif either way!
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October 9, 2009 10:24am
LUCY

Beautiful photos Chthoniid thank you
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October 9, 2009 10:25am
getstaffed

greenfly / XChequer – You might like to read guest paper from Maxim, A Government for the People: The value of representative democracy, where the author agues against change in the law in response to the recent CIR.

Now I happen to disagree quite strongly with that, but the way in which that position is explained makes pretty good sense.

So my presuppositions and thinking processes are challenged, and that makes for valuable reading in my view.
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October 9, 2009 10:42am
village idiot

getstaffed – I will, but I’m mindful that one swallow does not a summer make.
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October 9, 2009 10:55am
Elijah Lineberry

A funny chap with the unpronounceable name of ‘Yevgeny Dzhugashvili’, thinks his sociopathic granddad, Joe Stalin, is misunderstood and not the tyrant and mass murderer all the evidence would indicate.

He is taking a Russian newspaper to Court for claiming Stalin personally signed execution orders for soviet citizens.

This is similar to ‘Holecaust Denial’ in its idiocy and flying in the face of facts and history; hopefully the Russian Court will view this case as vexatious and absurd.

It is because of Stalin that freedom lovers everwhere launched the anti communist movement and moves to rehabilitate “Uncle Joe” need to be resisted and to have his crimes and behaviour used as a lesson for future generations.

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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October 9, 2009 11:02am
Brian Smaller

getstaffed – I will, but I’m mindful that one swallow does not a summer make.

As any married man will attest.
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October 9, 2009 11:04am
serge

“President Barack Obama said Wednesday he planned to nominate an openly gay lawyer as the U.S. ambassador to New Zealand and Samoa” (Newsmax.com). Well, that’s nice, another one coming to join the NZ garden of eden, wonderful contribution to NZ/American relations..thank you Obama, nice payback for sending Helen Clark over yonder…so, the trade stands at one gay in exchange for a lesbian, mmm, we shortchanged you Barack Hussein, to put matters right in a typical kiwi fashion, we will send you a maori as our next ambassador……….there….it is fair now.
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October 9, 2009 11:22am
KiwiGreg

I thought it was “one swallow does not a girlfriend make”? But I cant remember what movie it was from (or was it from the series Coupling?)
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October 9, 2009 11:23am
Johnboy

Breaking news——–Greens to can dodgy housing/slush/pension fund——RNZ news.
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October 9, 2009 11:34am
XChequer

getstaffed – I agree that it is good reading. All reasonable , thought provoking discussion is beneficial.

However the point I was making re: Maxim was: is there an agenda that is not immediately or explicitly available (i.e. not publicly stated)?

Once again, I readily admit that I may be and probably am quite wrong. However my impression from reading the Institute’s website is that there are moral overtones evident that hark to the old testament. One wonders, if there was a census taken, how many of the trustee’s and senior leadership of the “Institute” would class themselves as committed Christian or other such religious caste.

A paper, such as the excellent piece you linked to above, has no bearing whatsoever in this particular question.
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October 9, 2009 11:47am
village idiot

XChequer – your instincts are good.
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October 9, 2009 12:17pm
getstaffed

XChequer – I don’t know any of the Maxim Institute trustee’s or leadership.

There is a detailed section on What We Value. If the question is why are those values held, then my response is … does that matter?.

FWIW I take what they write, critique it and find there’s usually quite a bit of rational, common sense in there.
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October 9, 2009 12:35pm
getstaffed

Per Johnboy’s scoop above, from RadioNZ:

The Green Party is about to announce it will stop taxpayer-funded accommodation allowances being channelled into its superannuation fund.

Earlier this week it was revealed that Greens had paid back $6,000 to the Parliamentary Service after accidentally over-claiming for accommodation.

The party’s superannuation owns two properties in Wellington, in which three of its MPs live, and the taxpayer picks up the rent.

It was one of those properties for which the party had to re-imburse the Parliamentary Service.

It’s understood Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei will shortly announce plans to sell both properties, ending the practice of funnelling the accommodation allowance into the fund.

Radio New Zealand’s political staff say the arrangement is within the rules but has increasingly become a political embarrassment for the Greens, a party which has tried to take the moral high ground over MPs allowances.

The fund itself, which has other assets including shares, will continue to operate.

Yes, yes all good. But let’s see an transparent audit of rents paid vs rental valuations going back to when the first cent of taxpayer money was paid.
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October 9, 2009 12:41pm
nickb

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10602235

Why do the media keep giving this corrupt liar air?
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October 9, 2009 12:47pm
CraigM

HE’S BAAAACK………

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10602235

Winston knows you can fool some of the people some of the time…

surely no-one will buy the populist tripe from the con-man this time?….it’s all about trusts.
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October 9, 2009 12:47pm
CraigM

snap.
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October 9, 2009 12:48pm
village idiot

getstaffed – Yes, yes, it is all good. It must irk critics of the Greens immensely to see such a swift, transparent response from the party. Your seeming desire to find dirt on the Greens will be thwarted, I know, because there is none to be found. Again, I’m so confident in the integrity of the Green MPs that I’ll gladly promise to hand in my party membership, should there be anything other than fresh air emanating from the Greens accommodation arrangements. Are you as sincere in your support of Bill English, that you will offer the same? No National Party supporter on this blog has had the courage, oddly enough.
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October 9, 2009 12:49pm
getstaffed

greenfly – I support your membership of the Greens and would never wager such that you could lose it.

Transparency is not about finding dirt, it’s about demonstrating the absence of it. Surely you support that principle?

So let’s see some audited statements of income, paired with rental valuations.

Or, if you suggesting that the Greens hide this information, how does that wash with the transparency theme?
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October 9, 2009 12:54pm
village idiot

getstaffed

Transparency is about demonstrating the absence of dirt? Really? I see ‘openness, communication, and accountability’ as definitions, but ‘demonstrating the absence of dirt’ – that’s something else, I feel.

Nevertheless, there is no dirt.

if you suggesting that the Greens hide this information

Nope, I wasn’t.
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October 9, 2009 1:06pm
Johnboy

For Gods sake stop offering to resign from the Greenies Idiot. If you did that you would have to change your handle to ‘Genius’ or ‘Prodigy’ or something and we like calling you an idiot.
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October 9, 2009 1:14pm
RRM

Stephen Fry: You are being shagged by a very rare parrot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T1vfsHYiKY

Knew I should have voted for the Kakapo!
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October 9, 2009 1:27pm
backster

SERGE:……..Clearly Obamahinajad believes Chris CARTER is our Foreign Minister and that he will organise a Peace and Love orgy in NZ. Can you blame him.
GET STAFFED:…..Forgiveness is maybe OK if it is preceded by demonstrable repentance, not simply a State Funded lawyer expressing an offender’s remorse, otherwise the gesture seems wasted.
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October 9, 2009 1:33pm
Chthoniid

LUCY (263) at 10:25 am

Beautiful photos Chthoniid thank you

Thanks- landscapes aren’t a genre I’m very confident with, but they’re still fun to try.
The photos are (shock) actually taken with a film camera.
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October 9, 2009 1:39pm
getstaffed

Chthoniid – try those ‘rare parrots’ but, whatever you do, don’t try to party the same way with Darwin’s crocs next week!

backster – completely agree.
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October 9, 2009 1:53pm
freethinker

Get Staffed – Good point – Maxim ignores the fact that NZ is unique in the western system of having no checks/balances in the form of an upper house or substitute and that electors worldwide(even those with second chambers) are disatisfied with the results of their govenrments legislation/economics which is why they seek a way of neutralising the worst effects. Whlst legislators may have the time & resources to research and deliberate they have not always produced good or practical legislation and there is no evidence to support a theory that experts are any better than less knowledgable groups from reaching the best decision. If binding referenda is a step to far at this stage then perhaps the power of recall of all MPs voting for legislation that was subject of the refernda with a period to allow those to ammend/repeal that legislation would be a good initial step. Without a system that allows input and acceptance of majority opinion NZ will become increasingly difficult to govern as more people take the attitude of f**k the law Im doing it my way – what are you going to do about assuming you know what Iam doing, which effectively nullifies the laws intention except were it takes action which is then interpreted as picking on those it has an axe to grind against. The UK case of a civil servant who leaked sensitive & embarrasing information on government and was prosecuted, the judge almost instructing the jury to find him guilty ( suggested political interference) resulted in the jury finding hom not guilty – the british government wisely choose not to try that again.
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October 9, 2009 2:14pm
fredinthegrass

Chthoniid, look forward to your return . Mind those crocs though – I hear they prefer digital!
Probably old hat but I’ve just been emailed shots of Pearl Harbour post bombing, taken on a Box Brownie and only recently developed. Dont know if the story-of the camera – is true, but the shots are amazing.
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October 9, 2009 3:06pm
Steve

Chthoniid, Before you go a reqest if you have time. There was an image yo were working on of a woman from India/Sri lanka? Did you finish it? Great stuff.

Steve.
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October 9, 2009 3:47pm
Chthoniid

@getstaffed

I have a lot of respect for crocodiles. Mostly because an adult 5-7m croc could swallow me without choking. And at 1 tonne of scaly predator, there’s nothing I could about it.

@fredinthegrass

There’s always been something a bit more archival about film than digital 🙂 I’ve been around crocs before- the actual risks should be fairly low.

@ Steve

Aah yes, the Miao Bride form Yunnan. I have some very fine detail work to do on some of the errant long hairs. I’m going to get a good print made of it when I’ve finished. Either canvas or art paper. It’s going to look good. 🙂
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October 9, 2009 4:23pm
village idiot

johnboy – the day the Greens are found to be corrupt in any way, I’ll come over to you guys.
I’ll be posting under the name, “white ant”
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October 9, 2009 4:28pm
Steve

greenfly is going to gatecrash Kiwiblog … idiot
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October 9, 2009 5:44pm
Hurf Durf

Phool backs the “surrender and quit” strategy of Hussein Omoron and his worthless clown administration. Surprise surprise. Who wants to bet that in the history books it’ll be written that Omoron lost Afghanistan, much in the way Kennedy chickened out of Cuba and Carter limp-wristed away Rhodesia and Iran? And now he wants to “negotiate” with the Taliban, which has been going on for six years anyway, that’ll likely see Afghan territory seceded to them. Incredible.

CraigM: Winston Peters is a bad smell that won’t go away. He’s probably become delusional after ten months without a camera in his face and thinks he’s in 1995.
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October 9, 2009 6:07pm
Johnboy

“I’ll be posting under the name, “white ant””

Glad to have you aboard us righties forgive all sins for the truly enlightened.

Suggest ‘Right Rant’ instead of ‘white ant’.
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October 9, 2009 6:11pm
Luc Hansen

To Kiwi in America and virtualmark

It’s very instructive to get first hand experience of sustained argument by Israel’s sympathisers. The tactics seem to be, aside from the inevitable ad hominem attacks, a combination of massive quantities of tangential information, designed to obscure the true issues, and complete disengagement when confronted with provenanced information.

For example, Kiwi in America responds with long cut and pasted excerpts from publications which he does not name, usually including carefully selected quotations to support a particular point of view.

So in response to a mild statement that “Israel attacked Egypt (in 1967),” KIA rehashed that to say I wrote Israel was the aggressor and proceeded to supply a cut and paste in which goes into great deal of detail simply unnecessary in this discussion. And which includes the line; “On the first day of the war when Israel was attacking Egypt…” The fact remains that senior Israeli figures like Ben Ami and Menachem Begin have said that Israel “chose” to attack. Nasser’s stupidity. like, Hamas in Gaza last November, was given Israel an excuse to attack.

Then there is a long extract on land purchases by Zionists. I’m not sure why and I don’t have any problem with that detail. We know that at the time of the partition resolution, Jews owned some 6%, give or take, of the land. Yet the UN saw fit to grant another 39% , give or take, at no charge. Does that seem fair?

KIA’s detail on the minutiae of land dealings simply does not interest me. It’s well documented much land was owned by absentee landowners, and Palestinian notables were involved in some sales – after all, they were the ones most likely to own the land. The application of indigenous peoples customary rights does not require paper titles.

You can take your choice as to which historian to believe on the matter of expulsions versus voluntary departure. Is fleeing (ie voluntarily leaving before the marauding army of Jews arrived, preceded as they were with stories of atrocities) voluntary departure necessarily entailing permanent separation and dispossession of the land in which their ancestral roots lay? Especially when coupled with UNGA Res 194, that the victorious Jews allow the refugees to return. Of course not.

But more salient is the fact that the expulsions did not begin with the 1948 war. In fact, according to Pappe and other sources like http://www.palestineremembered.com about 50% of the dispossessed Palestinians had already left the country by the start of that war.

And for KIA, again, I’m really not interested in the continual mantra that Hamas, Hezbollah etc etc “still demand the annihilation of Israel.” What about the fact that Liked was founded on, and still officially adheres to, the basis of an exclusively Jewish presence between the river and the sea. This policy can only be fulfilled, of course, by expelling Palestinians.

Hamas has announced often it now accepts two states. The PA does the same. No other party matters. Iran’s official policy is to put any settlement to a vote amongst Palestinians and it will accept the result. Basing a cry for more of the tragedy of war on the basis of a temporary head of state (Nejad is now in his final term) and his most unfortunate ranting simply demonstrates a fixation on war over talk. Neither should we allow Lieberman’s overt racism to distract from the real task – a permanent peace.

Let’s look at some other stuff from KIA. He (as does virtual mark) makes great play of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal of troops and colonising settlers (which, contrary to Israeli claims, did not denote an end to occupation) and an increase in rocket fire, yet fails to mention that upon withdrawal Israel imposed a complete blockade of Gaza. It seems that a blockade is a causes belli when it is done to Israel, but not when the reverse is the case. When a ceasefire was finally agreed, Hamas adhered to the terms and actively worked to prevent rocket fire but Israel, according even to the UN, intensified its blockade instead of the agreed upon easing. Of course, this was because Israel’s planning for the Gaza massacre was well underway.

The facts of the matter are that Sharon decided to give up claims to Gaza and concentrate on colonising the WB. This colonisation has proceeded apace. These are the demonstrable facts on the ground.

Let’s take Iran’s “meddling” in Lebanon. It’s OK for Israel to subject Lebanon to an unjustifiable 20 year occupation in an attempt to extend its northern boundaries, yes? It’s OK for Israel to bomb Lebanon in response to a single attack on soldiers, yes? This sort of hypocrisy is simply stunning. While we are talking about arms supplies, the constant calls for the supply of arms to Hamas and Hezbollah to cease is yet more one-sided hypocrisy. The side that should be embargoed as a matter of urgency is Israel.

More disingenuousness from KIA: that Israel is even contemplating handing over the WB. Facts can’t be ignored. Ever since increasing the pace of colonisation at the start of the peace process Israel’s goal has been clear: grab the land and resources, as much as possible, and build a wall to keep it forever.

Such is Israel’s arrogance and contempt for the rest of the world, that it pretends to propose peace while annexing yet more land and resources and builds an apartheid wall on occupied territory, not what is acknowledged as Israel’s land.

I am sure I haven’t covered everything but neither am I interested in getting sucked into irrelevant detail. I don’t entirely agree Paul Buchanan that history needs to be ignored as until Israel recognises the legitimate claims of Palestinians to the land it has taken by conquest in an age in which acquisition of land by conquest is now not permitted, then it is Israel who is not serious about peace. Crocodile tears about Israel’s “mistakes” and WB colonisation just don’t wash.

Support the BDS movement until Israel settles on the basis of 242 and I will then believe your tears.

In the meantime, I need to practise staying on topic and not letting propagandists sidetrack me 🙂

Out of time, but I’ve more to come for VM.
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October 9, 2009 6:33pm
Luc Hansen

I see that John Banks has taken a leaf out of Roger Douglas’ book:

“If I wear my policy on my sleeve, I won’t win the election (for the mayoralty of the super-city).”
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October 9, 2009 10:03pm
getstaffed

And for KIA, again, I’m really not interested in the continual mantra that Hamas, Hezbollah etc etc “still demand the annihilation of Israel.”

Why? Because this as untrue, or because you’re writing your comments from comfy NZ and just don’t care – or worse support that position? It’s just a possibility, but I suspect you’d be more interested in this matter if you were living within rocket range.

The tactics seem to be, aside from the inevitable ad hominem attacks…

I haven’t seen too many ad hominem attacks against you Luc. I’ll look harder. I did see you refer to one commenter as a “religious nutter” the other day. Hint: If you want to take the ad hominem high ground try to avoid slinging the mud yourself.

including carefully selected quotations to support a particular point of view

And you deny doing the same thing? Would you prefer they only wrote things that you agreed with?

I need to practise staying on topic and not letting propagandists sidetrack me

Ah, so a propagandist is anyone who doesn’t see the world the way you do? I hope you have more friends than your statement suggest you have.

Luc, your consistently pummeled karma ratings suggest that readers don’t buy your suggestion that KIA and VM are sidetracking or one-eyed. Quite the contrary I suspect.
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October 9, 2009 10:37pm
adamsmith1922

Barack Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize, what a crock http://bit.ly/1PyOdm
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October 9, 2009 10:51pm
Hurf Durf

Does someone want to tell me just what the fuck Omoron’s done to earn the Nobel Peace Prize?

Capitulate to Russia? Stall Israeli-Palestinian peace talks (they both hate him)? Dither on Afghanistan and Iran? Oh wait, my mistake, he made a few shit speeches which have made fuck all difference in anything.

General Petraeus secures Iraq and Sarkozy mediates peace between Russia and Georgia. Anything for them? NO.

What a complete and total fucking joke. Fucking tossers.
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October 9, 2009 10:53pm
Rhino

It is laughable that Obama gets a peace prize but its not like the award has any actual reputation. FFS the gave it to gore for talking about climate change, sorry I cant see how that brings peace. Unfortunately for all the real nobel prize winners (i mean the scientists etc) they have to have their award tarnished by a panel that insists on making a dick of themselves.
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October 9, 2009 10:59pm
Hurf Durf

“his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples,”

Such as? Such as? Making a few shit speeches? Otwat’s done fuck all to promote peace anywhere. He dances with dictators and tells Iranian dissidents to get fucked and he gets a fucking peace prize for it. He signs non-aggression treaties with Burma and he gets a fucking peace prize for it. He wants to negotiate with the Middle Age-dwelling Taliban and he gets a FUCKING PEACE PRIZE FOR IT. Holy shit I am fucking livid about this. The cocksuckers in the media get to deflate the fact his first year in office has been a total fucking failure with PEAS PRISE!11111 “Extraordinary?” Give me a FUCKING break.

I mean what in the name of all hell. More like, Breaking news: Nobel Peace Prize worth goes from very little to fuck all. And announced right at the start of the US news cycle in the morning too. Fucking scheming cockholsters. Let’s nuke Norway. It’s not like they’ve given the world anything of any use except for the term Quisling.
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October 9, 2009 11:02pm
Hurf Durf

And you think it’ll ever be revoked from him if shit goes south? Nope. That would be fucking WAAAAAAAACIIIIIIIIIIIIIST.

Jesus tapdancing Christ. Stop this worthless, sticking, fetid rock of a planet, I want to get off.
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October 9, 2009 11:06pm
Luc Hansen

getstaffed:

as regards ad hominem attacks, yes, look harder, but I’m a quick study as regards retaliation 🙂 And maybe I am a bit thin skinned – if so, I guess I better harden up!

I carefully explained why I am not interested in the rhetoric surrounding Hamas and Hezbollah: they all do it. Eventually, they will all sit down at the negotiating table. The rockets are pitiful compared to Israel’s weapons, including nukes, but if Israel is so terrified of them, why didn’t they continue the ceasefire as Hamas desired?

As to quotations, I try to avoid cut and paste, demonising stuff. I make point of stating no party to this conflict can stake out the moral high ground regarding conduct. I keep returning to basic issues and get deluged with irrelevant detail.

There are around 10,000,000 Palestinians in the world today, the overwhelming majority of whom were not born in 1948. I don’t think my sins should be visited upon my one year old daughter (bless her beautiful heart) and I apply the same to Palestinians. And Jews, in fact, which is why I don’t call for “the destruction of Israel” or for “Jews to be driven into the sea”!

KIA in particular doesn’t actually contribute much him or her self, it’s just cut and paste. VM is not much better; for him it’s all about demonising one side, with maybe a patronising head shake towards Israel for imaginary balance.

As regards my ratings here, that’s why I’m here! Look what at what happened to Jesus when he delivered enlightenment!
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October 9, 2009 11:09pm
Luc Hansen

Hurf @ 11.02pm

“Otwat’s done fuck all to promote peace anywhere.”

I agree with Hurf.
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October 9, 2009 11:14pm
Hurf Durf

citing his outreach to the Muslim world and attempts to curb nuclear proliferation.

George Bush cut the US nuclear arsenal in half during his administration. Libya gave up their weapons programme due to the Bush doctrine. Where’s his fucking Nobel Prize? Fucking hypocrites. If we’re going to give Nobel Peace Prizes on narrow and vague terms, clearly Bush had curbing nuclear proliferation in the fucking bag.

And oh yes, “outreach,” that wonder “Otwat Effect.” You know, Rafiri resigning from government in Lebanon because he couldn’t get Hezbo on board, Iran brutally cracking down on peaceful demonstrators and Syria continuing to be aggressive and hostile. What a fucking effect!

“Only very rarely has a person to the same extent as Obama captured the world’s attention and given its people hope for a better future,” the committee said. “His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world’s population.”

Mother of God. What a crock of shit. Majority? Got a poll for that?
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October 9, 2009 11:17pm
Hurf Durf

Tremendously well-deserved, despite what detractors may say. withdrawing from Iraq, nuclear disarmament (getting a resolution through the UN and even focusing on it, as the leader of the world’s sole superpower), calming tensions with the Muslim world, these are all world-changing actions that Obama has enacted in such a short time in office, and they make us all safer.

– nash, london, UK, 9/10/2009 22:19

This is what Oborgs actually fucking believe. They should all be hanged.
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October 9, 2009 11:29pm
Hurf Durf

Asked why the prize had been awarded to Mr Obama less than a year after he took office, Nobel committee head Thorbjoern Jagland said: “It was because we would like to support what he is trying to achieve”

Surprise, surprise. Fuck Norway.
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October 9, 2009 11:42pm
Hurf Durf

This is all just a feint for the International Left to make Otwat adhere to abandoning Afghanistan and turning it back into a Taliban-controlled shithole. For PEACE!!11!!

If they had any honour, they’d all kill themselves.
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October 9, 2009 11:50pm
Luc Hansen

Obama’s peace prize suks. The guy is a fucking war mongering, Muslim slaughtering toe rag.

Any way, look at this:

Auckland’s district health boards are considering bringing Diagnostic Medlab back into the provision of community laboratory services because of persisting problems with the newcomer Labtests.

Go to http://.www.nzherald.co.nz

I’m bemused by the last para, the head of the medical assoc saying the decision was moving away from the risks of a single provider. DML was a single provider, hugely responsive to our needs and very successful. Weird comment.

However, I am happy to see the return of competition and the spreading of risk in a hugely important service.
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October 9, 2009 11:55pm
Hurf Durf

Blast from the past:

The prize was awarded jointly to: 2005

INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCY and MOHAMED ELBARADEI for their efforts to prevent nuclear energy from being used for military purposes and to ensure that nuclear energy for peaceful purposes is used in the safest possible way.

Heck of a job, Mohammy!

In 1919, Woodrow Wilson won it for crafting the Treaty of Versailles. And we all know how that turned it.
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October 10, 2009 12:27am
Paul G. Buchanan

Luc: Since you took my name in vain in a comment above, let’s be clear: you have misrepresented what I said regarding the conflict. Either you can be honest in your representations of what other people say, or you can be a propagandist. Which one are you?

To reiterate. I said that all sides need to acknowledge their historical misdeeds and mistakes as the prelude to substantive negotiations about contemporary points of conflict in order to secure a durable future peace. That would obviously include Israeli recognition of Palestinian land rights, something that moderate factions in Israel have always supported and which even Likud is willing to acknowledge so long as there is a quid pro quo from the Palestinians. My broader point is that so long as Israelis and Palestinians are mired down in recriminations about past injustices, then the prospects for advancing a peace project are nil.

As for the Obama Nobel. It is bogus but it is also clear that the Nobel Peace Committee are trying, with the award, to lock him into fulfilling his promises on disarmament and cross-cultural dialogue. They believe that he is more likely to pursue his promised intentions if the prestige of the award is riding on it than if he is unencumbered by the reputational weight of the award. I believe that the Committee seriously overestimates its potential influence on great power policy-makers, which is why it is always better to award them after they have done something rather than before they have had time to confront the harsh realities of their jobs. This also is another manifestation of the belief systems underpinning liberal institutional and social constructivist approaches to international relations, as opposed to realist and neo-realist approaches. Small and medium European nations tend towards the former, while the big players tend towards the latter when framing their foreign policies. Time will tell which sub-school Obama belongs to, but I am willing to bet that even if he is from the liberal institutional and/or social constructivist school, he is going to be a realist by the end of his presidency.
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October 10, 2009 12:29am
reid

I am willing to bet that even if he is from the liberal institutional and/or social constructivist school, he is going to be a realist by the end of his presidency.

So Paul, why the golly heck isn’t he a realist when he assumes the role? It’s just I woulda thought it was a rather critical pre-requisite. And BTW, what’s a “neo-realist?”
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October 10, 2009 12:43am
Paul G. Buchanan

Reid:

His lack of foreign policy experience and the need for dramatic change in policy direction is probably the reason why he had not been re-schooled in realist thought prior to his inauguration. But I can tell you he is getting a quick course as we speak. Neo-realism is a sub-school of realist thought that stipulates that it is the anarchic properties of the international system, rather than human nature (as realists thought), that makes states self-interested and conflict prone. It is also a third image theory (focused on the international structure) as opposed to a first image theory (which is focused on the innate attributes of humans in the absence of a Leviathan). Mogenthau is the preeminent realist author, while Ken Waltz is the leading neo-realist. Social constructivists focus on the intersubjective dimension of state behaviour as a second image level theory: that is, they believe that state behavior is driven by ideational factors and internal decision-making structures that frame the construction of “objective” international phenomena, as opposed to being driven by either systemic imperatives or innate traits. They and liberal institutional theorists believe that state behaviour can be modified (presumably for the better) by norm and value change, such as that promoted by the Treaty of Westphalia, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the more recent “Responsibility to Protect” (R2P) doctrine regarding the protection of at-risk populations in otherwise sovereign states. As I said before, it is the latter schools to which the Nobel Peace Committee subscribes.
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October 10, 2009 12:55am
reid

Paul, thanks so much for that and references to further reading. Most appreciated.
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October 10, 2009 1:10am
Luc Hansen

Paul, I wrote:

“I don’t entirely agree (with) Paul Buchanan that history needs to be ignored as until Israel recognises the legitimate claims of Palestinians to the land it has taken by conquest in an age in which acquisition of land by conquest is now not permitted, then it is Israel who is not serious about peace.”

I did use the word “entirely” to indicate that while I had some reservations about what I recalled of your post, I was not in complete disagreement. It’s a bit of a stab in the dark here at times to find what is posted where and I certainly did not intend any misrepresentation. At some stage, as in South Africa with the Truth and Reconciliation Committee hearings, the parties do need to move past historic misdeeds and wrongs, I agree.

I’m interested in your claim that ‘even Likud is willing to acknowledge (Palestinian land rights)”. What’s your source? How does this square with Netanyahu’s demand for Israel to be recognised as a Jewish State, as such recognition would by definition void any land claims by Palestinians in their historic homeland within the Green Line? Maybe even within the wall?

Then you ask for a quid pro quo from Palestinians in return. I struggle with this. Does this mean you want Palestinians to give up even more than the perhaps the 15% or so (just an estimate, they had 22% before the colonies and the wall) of historic Palestine they retain, even though the populations within the area are roughly equal? Are Palestinians meant to concede even more human rights for an ever decreasing parcel of land and resources and accept a fate of forever being at the mercy of the passing whims of Israel’s procession of governments?

And, because it’s the equivalent of taking a paper with you but it’s free and without the worry of an exam, could you explain your understanding of “realist.” For example, in relation to Afghanistan, do you mean a Nixon style realist who finally swallowed the dead rat and withdrew from Vietnam (with whom the US is now a buddy) or something else? In the Middle East, is it sending Israel back to (more or less) the Green Line and diverting the obscene amounts of military aid it currently gives to Israel to non-military aid for Palestinians?
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October 10, 2009 1:36am
Luc Hansen

reid

continuing from “over there,” what have numbers got to do with it? You mean people, but what about numbers of wars in one’s name?

Confucius was an atheist philosopher, Jesus was, perhaps, a “neo-Jew.”

There is not a lot of equivalence.
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October 10, 2009 1:52am
Paul G. Buchanan

Ok Luc: I accept that you were not being deliberately devious as to what I said. The acknowledgement/quid pro quo argument basically states that Hamas and Fatah need to jointly recognize Israel’s right to exist, at which point discussion of a return to the 1973 (and perhaps 1967) borders can begin. Should they do that, Israel has stated that it willing to discuss past misdeeds and talk about land swaps. Likud bought into this approach in the past, and we should not confuse current bargaining postures with what is really on the table. In fact, my view is that things deteriorated because of that zealot Sharon’s provocation at the Dome of the Rock, and everything since then has seen Sharon-inspired land grabs as a form of a) orthodox leverage on the secular Israeli political establishment and b) Israeli leverage in any negotiations with the Palestinian Authority on recognition of Israel’s right to exist. That is the tragedy of the rightward drift in Israeli politics.

But realists within Israel–and I have had the fortune of having had conversations with two very senior (recently retired) Mossad officers on this–fully understand that the illegal settlements are just that and need to be traded for peace. In fact, one of them said to me that removal of the settlements is the first thing that needs to be done in order to move past the current impasse, but that both the Israeli government as well as the Palestinian authorities are too divided (and therefore too weak) to make any type of deal at the moment (so the unilateral withdrawal idea is a no-go for the moment). His view is that both sides need to get their own houses in order before any such a move can be made. More broadly, both officers noted that orthodox Jews are the Israeli equivalent of Hamas militants, and in both cases are the element that prefers to keep the conflict alive for their own purposes and against the interests of the otherwise moderate majority of their respective populations. So there is recognition within Israel of the pernicious impact of the settler movement.

Realists would simply note that the US should involve itself in foreign conflicts only when vital national interests are at stake. Thus Iraq was not a “just” war. Afghanistan was initially a “just” war for realists because of Taliban complicity in aiding and abetting the 9/11 plotters, which required a decisive US response as an assertion of its superpower status. But the mission has now turned into something else. Most realists would have cut bait once the Taliban were ousted. Now, given the extant situation, they can still justify continuing in Afghanistan because a US withdrawal will be perceived as a defeat, sign of weakness and hence invite more attacks, but they would never justify its nation-building pretensions. They are just confronted with a raw power dynamic upon which the US reputation is staked–hence it is a national interest to keep a dog in that fight. But if the soon to be announced “surge” does not deliver a Taliban roll-back within a reasonable time frame, then realists would probably counsel for withdrawal rather than being slowly bled in an unwinnable conflict when resources could be more usefully directed elsewhere.

As for Israel, realists would simply note that Israel is the tail that wags the US dog on most Middle East policy, and thus it is not in the US national interest to conflate its national security interests with those of Israel. They may overlap on a broad swathe of issues, but they are not synonymous. Two prominent neo-realists, John Mearsheimer and Steven Walt, wrote as much in a much reviled essay on the influence of the Israel lobby on US foreign policy (and neither is remotely anti-Semitic or, for that matter, anti-Zionist; they are just being pragmatic and value-neutral, as realists and their ilk tend to be). Their dispassionate view was, of course, poorly received in US political circles, but it offered a succinct (neo) realist critique of US policy towards the Jewish state (which incidentally, is understood in moderate Israeli circles as a Jewish majority state, not as an absolute demographic principle). So the short answer to your question is yes, a reduction in military aid would be considered as appropriate as a means of getting Israel to retreat to the Green Line–assuming that there were no countervailing repercussions that would worsen rather than increase US security interests in the region (for example, such as a denial of Israeli intelligence flows in retaliation). One thing is certain: the neo-cons and their presidential puppet were not realists in orientation–they were conservative idealists who eschewed pragmatism in favour of ideological conviction. Unfortunately for them, reality intruded on their aspirations, and it is now left for Obama to pick up the pieces. Come to think of it, maybe THAT is why he got the Nobel Prize!
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October 10, 2009 3:00am
Gulag

The Norwegian Nobel Committee have made a big mistake this time.
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October 10, 2009 6:11am
Put it away

Reid –
Continuing from the other thread, if the numbers of people that believe in jesus is any indication that he was more than a “political figure or imaginary character”, what happens when muslims outnumber xtians, in about 80 years at current rates ? At that point does islam become more proven and and legitimate than christianity ? It’s absurd to say “all other such figures” have passed from peoples consciousness, Islam has 1.5 million people thinking about Mahommed every day, Buddhism has a few hundred million thinking about buddha every day. Hinduism has 1 billion adherents despite not having any central human founder equivalent to jesus. If what’s essentially a vast collection of anonymous folk traditions written down and commented on by later scholars can get a billion believers, what does that do for your argument that jesus must necessarily have existed and been something special ? Religious people will believe all kinds of stuff without caring where it came from. They believe it because they want it to be true, not becuase they’re impressed with the historical legitimacy of the founder.
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October 10, 2009 8:08am
Put it away

Typo, obviously that should be 1.5 billion muslims….
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October 10, 2009 8:24am
reid

” if the numbers of people that believe in jesus is any indication that he was more than a “political figure or imaginary character”, what happens when muslims outnumber xtians, in about 80 years at current rates ”

Put it away, G-d is G-d. Christians and Jews call Him YHWH and Muslims call Him Allah.

It’s the same entity, either way.

Some people don’t won’t or can’t separate the concept of G-d from what various religions teach and say. They are in fact two distinct things, although to someone looking from the outside in, the distinction seems to be rarely made. Just because some religion says something, it doesn’t make it so, and it doesn’t mean that those who profess that religion necessarily believe that. Religion is merely a vehicle through which its adherents practise their faith. Faith however in essence to a believer is a personal, one-on-one relationship between G-d and that believer. Unless and until one makes that critical distinction, one will never understand faith. And if one doesn’t understand faith, then one is in no position to make an accurate call on whether G-d really exists or not.
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October 10, 2009 1:16pm
Kris K

reid 1:16 pm,

” if the numbers of people that believe in jesus is any indication that he was more than a “political figure or imaginary character”, what happens when muslims outnumber xtians, in about 80 years at current rates ”

Put it away, G-d is G-d. Christians and Jews call Him YHWH and Muslims call Him Allah.
It’s the same entity, either way.

While I agree with much of what you said earlier Reid, I really have to take issue with you on the above.
There is no way that the God of the Bible (Jehovah) is the same entity as Islam’s Allah.
The main point of difference, and there are many, is that the Koran states that “Allah has no son”. It also denies the deity of Christ; limiting Him to nothing more than just another prophet, who has been superseded by Mohommed. This really is the nail in the coffin for those that equate Allah with Jehovah.
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October 10, 2009 3:34pm
Luc Hansen

Paul, I have just caught up with your reply to me. Thank you for the opening acknowledgment and thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed post, which certainly puts some things in a different perspective.
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October 10, 2009 5:13pm
jabba

well done Luc .. I think you, as with the rest of us, would be on a hiding to nothing with Paul .. fantastic he takes time out to add comments.
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October 10, 2009 6:46pm
Paul G. Buchanan

No problem Luc (and cheers for that Jabba)–I have lots of time on my hands.
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October 10, 2009 6:57pm

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