General Debate 8 October 2009

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KiwiGreg

Anyone else noticed how light traffic is in Auckland when the buses are on strike?
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October 8, 2009 9:14am
Pete George

Something that came up yesterday warrants clarification. Maybe I am interpreting things incorrectly.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/10/more_on_chris_carter.html#comment-616056

Is the change in laws and policing over the last fifty years regarding family violence (partner v partner) moral improvement or moral decline?
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October 8, 2009 9:17am
KiwiGreg

…and now I am really pissed.

Just when I think maybe this government isn’t just Labour-lite they come out with this:

http://www.med.govt.nz/upload/70179/Financial-reporting-framework-discussion-document.pdf

Public filing of audited accounts for private companies which DONT go to the public for money. Gratuitous busybody nosiness. Why not go the whole hog and parade small business owners down Queen Street and throw shit at them?
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October 8, 2009 9:21am
Patrick Starr

ummm – not much of a fight there Village Idiot – following a big towel chuck from the separatists corner

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10601936

(Cameron lasted longer than that)
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October 8, 2009 9:23am
david

KiwiGreg (639) Vote: 0 0 Says:

October 8th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Anyone else noticed how light traffic is in Auckland when the buses are on strike?

Absolutely except that as I came up Mt Eden Rd at 0735, the usual Council Cockroach was operating his buslane camera just short of Symonds St. When is the ACC going to get real?
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October 8, 2009 9:29am
Pita

“ETS fails as businesses go east with spending” Article in business section of Dompost, a must read for those interested in the futility of the ETS scheme and the demise of western civilisation.
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October 8, 2009 9:29am
Ryan Sproull

Anyone else noticed how light traffic is in Auckland when the buses are on strike?

Taking the scooter down the bus lanes kicked arse.
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October 8, 2009 9:35am
Johnboy

Particularly liked this comment from your link Patrick.

‘Outspoken National MP Tau Henare yesterday criticised Maori Party MP Te Ururoa Flavell for suggesting that criticism of the bid had racist undertones.

“Give me a break. I’m one of the ones that has used that excuse and I know when to use it. When your back is against the wall and you haven’t got a decent-enough argument, you pull that one out of the bag.’

Says it all really.
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October 8, 2009 9:36am
cha

I know the copper who arrested David Bourke and although I cant say much about the actual arrest what I can say is that we’re all very fortunate to be served by men of the calibre of the arresting officer. So well done that man, you earned that beer and I reckon you deserve a medal.
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October 8, 2009 9:37am
Peter

“ETS fails as businesses go east with spending”

Got a link, Pita?
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October 8, 2009 9:49am
Patrick Starr

I’m surprised Henare said that as well johnboy- certainly should take any remaining credibility away from maori screaming the race card again.

Speaking of which “Labour Maori MP Shane Jones last night suggested that support for the bid could be based on Maori concern about lack of Maori input into Rugby World Cup planning”
well we know what articulate planners they are, and if we’re not meeting deadlines now then what an additional few years? Someone should remind Jones the RWC isn’t like a hikoi – where you can just dive into McD’s when you’re tired of it
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October 8, 2009 9:52am
Auberon

The other day, amid all the hoo ha surrounding Maori TV’s bid for Rugby World Cup viewing rights, came a statement from Maori Party MP Te Ururoa Flavell. I like him, and think he’s an effective MP. I’ve listened to him in the house and in the media. When I read the statement I thought, Te Ururoa didn’t write that, but I bet I know who did: Derek Fox. The statement is below (1) for anyone who wants to read it and decide for themsleves. I think it’s Fox through-and-through. Oh well, I thought, I knew Derek was involved doing comms for the Maori Party, so it’s not surprising that he’s fighting his old battles with the mainstream broadcasters through the MPs he supports.

But then I learned something new about the connection between Derek Fox, the Maori Party, Maori TV and TPK. A statement below from the official office of the Rugby World Cup (2) announces the appointment of Leon Grice to help support Martin Snedden and bring together a small team of professionals to help with the event. I’m told one of those “professionals” is Derek Fox’s long-time girlfriend Jaewyn Mckay.

No wonder the PM was surprised by this – it’s Derek Fox writ large, with all the maverick behaviour he’s become so infamous for.

(1) Maori MP says ‘lets get facts straight on RWC bid’ –

Press Release by Maori Party at 2:17 pm, 06 Oct 2009

The MP for Waiariki – Te Ururoa Flavell – says misinformation, mischief making and an appeal to racial prejudice are fuelling the debate around the Maori Television bid for ‘free-to-air’ television coverage of the rugby world cup in Aotearoa.

“Here are the facts around the situation:

1 Sky TV, TV One and TV3 put in a joint bid for the tv coverage and their bid was rejected

2 They then put in separate bids but co-operated on price, and those too were rejected

3 Sky TV bid for and won the pay tv rights

4 The three networks above did NOT include MTS in any of their approaches

5 While there were NO bids on the table for free to air coverage MTS put together a solo bid

6 If the Maori Television Service bid is successful it will trigger a contract whereby MTS will deliver certain outcomes to Te Puni Kokiri over the next three years

7 The contract is NOT a grant or a subsidy but a purchase agreement – on the other hand TVNZ has enjoyed tens of millions of dollars of grants and subsidies from the taxpayer in its life time, TV3 is a straight out commercial broadcaster whose role is to maximise its profits for its shareholders, it has NO allegiance to the public of New Zealand, MTS is a public channel controlled by a satute of Parliament

8 There is NO single channel in the country which has 100% ‘free-to-air’ coverage – but if MTS is successful it has two years to improve its already 90% coverage and there are many ways to do that

9 Unlike the other networks MTS has offered to share coverage through sub-licensing arrangements

“Those are the facts. The reality is that the so-called ‘big boys’ ignored MTS and tried to have the International Rugby Board on and the IRB called their bluff. MTS on the other hand cleverly put together a deal and a stand alone bid which has considerable mileage in it for Maori, in fact for all New Zealanders.”

“Since they discovered how credible the MTS bid is and that they have been blind-sided by the channel they ignored, TVNZ and TV3 are trying hard to discredit the bid and have been working on politicians who are more than willing to put the boot into anything Maori.”

“I’m hoping fair-minded kiwis having seen the facts laid out will see that there is a fair degree of ‘sour grapes’ here and people crying foul after being caught short. I’m also hoping they’ll remember the good work MTS has done with meagre resources to bring ANZAC day and the Breakers and other programmes to the nation. Kia ora.”

ENDS

(2) 9 September 2009

Rugby World Cup Minister Murray McCully has today announced the establishment of the New Zealand 2011 Office, which will be responsible for implementing the Government’s leverage and legacy plans around RWC 2011.

The work of the New Zealand 2011 office will include co-ordinating a national festival, developing and implementing a host and volunteer programme, and developing a business engagement programme to showcase the best of New Zealand businesses.

The New Zealand 2011 Office will work closely with Martin Snedden and his team at Rugby New Zealand 2011 over the next two years, including being co-located with them at PSIS House in Wellington. A director, Leon Grice, has been appointed and is bringing together a small team of professionals with trade and events expertise.
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October 8, 2009 9:59am
Johnboy

Just been over at Whales. Looks like he has harpooned a mole in the PS. Go take a look.

http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2009/10/07/a-curious-set-of-circumstances/#comments

NZ has the least corrupt PS in the world I read somewhere recently—must have been a novel I was reading.

[DPF: There is a difference between suspicion and proof and please do not refer to moles or corruption here without proof]
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October 8, 2009 10:02am
queenstfarmer

KiwiGreg: “Public filing of audited accounts for private companies which DONT go to the public for money”. Did you READ the document? See Schedule A for handy summary.

They are proposing the opposite – “Our preliminary view is that New Zealand should remove the requirement imposed on medium and small companies to prepare financial reports.” para 91
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October 8, 2009 10:02am
Luc Hansen

cha @ 9.37am

I am sure we all completely agree, even the hypocritical dunderheads who bayed their bloodlust-fuelled support for the needless killing of Stephen Wallace.
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October 8, 2009 10:03am
virtualmark

Luc,

Firstly, re racism. The definition you quote from Wikipedia reads as a sweeping “PC” definition that I could agree with in only a very broad and technical sense. If you want to work from that definition then everyone who watches the Olympic 100m sprint final and realises all the finalists are black … is a racist. And so are all the people watching the Olympic swimming finals and noting all the finalists are white.

I am a pragmatist. I recognise that different genetic and cultural make-ups do lead to different outcomes. If you can’t acknowledge that then your political correctness has got in the way of your common sense.

I would suggest a more meaningful and useful definition of racism would be along the lines of “the belief that racial differences justify and legitimise the ill-treatment of a particular race”. In that sense then no, I am not a racist. I would gladly see the Palestinians get a better deal than they have, and have a better future.

But it’s that old pragmatism again. At some point the Palestinians and their apologists – such as you – have to get mature enough to recognise an element of self-responsibility in them achieving that better deal and gaining that better future.

In that sense you failed to respond to my post. I listed a series of examples where Palestinians had made poor choices which seem – to the neutral observer such as myself – as showing almost a conscious desire to stay mired in their current situation and spurn any opportunity to improve.

Taking just one of those examples – the Palestinians refusal to accept the 2000 Camp David proposal – I’m interested to hear your views of why the Palestinians were right to spurn that offer.

As for Naom Chomsky, he is a great linguist but I don’t take his views on this conflict as bearing any more weight than yours or mine. Alan Dershowitz was much to kind to him. The logical rebuttal would be to point out that the generosity of the offer should be measured in terms of its improvement over the Palestinians current situation and the amount to which it delivers their rational and achievable objectives (rather than their pipe-dream objectives such as destroying Israel). Chomsky’s offer “If it’s that’s good, let’s swap” is nothing more than a misdirection.

Luc, I am quite neutral on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If you read my post as a “just one long mendacious rant” then I suspect that highlights how one-sided your own viewpoint is rather than being a useful pointer to mine. Let me repeat … I would happily see the Palestinian’s get a better deal, I believe that Israel has done a number of ills on them (such as the West Bank settlements), but ultimately the Palestinian’s need to show more constructive behaviour and cultural maturity than they have done to date and, sadly, I believe that even if they do achieve a Palestinian state it will be independent in name only, and will be economically and geographically dependent on Israel.

PS. Re your comments on UNGA181. I agree that this was never fully enacted, since war broke out once the British withdrew in May 1948, and that Israel was eventually admitted to the UN on the basis of the state existing after the 1949 armistice, rather than the state proposed in UNGA181. I agree that as a result UNGA181 could be seen to have unclear legal standing. What interests me though is this question … if the Palestinian’s don’t accept UNGA181, and the Arab countries don’t accept UNGA181 … then on what legal basis do they talk about a “Palestinian state”. There was no Palestinian state pre-UNGA181. And they don’t accept UNGA181. Certainly I acknowledge that the reality on the ground says there is a Palestinian state – it’s a pragmatic fact. But it seems to me either the Palestinian’s have to accept UNGA181, and by extension recognise Israel’s right to exist, or they too have no rights to exist as a separate state.
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October 8, 2009 10:06am
Luc Hansen

More scary American fundamentalist extremism:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/05/conservative-bible-projec_n_310037.html

The nutters are rewriting the Bible to make it better suit their twisted world view.

eg 6. Accept the Logic of Hell: applying logic with its full force and effect, as in not denying or downplaying the very real existence of Hell or the Devil.

Let’s have a Kiwiblog poll – anyone believe Hell exists? If yes, where?
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October 8, 2009 10:07am
KiwiGreg

@ queentstfarmer Of course I read it. They propose that companies meeting 2 of the tests (>$10m assets, >$20m revenue or > 50 employees) should be required to file public audited accounts even though they are totally private on grounds of “economic significance”. I submitted in detail in opposition to exactly the same proposals made by Labour a couple of years ago.

The proposal you reference is a meaningless change as companies still need to file tax returns and will need accounts for those, whatever their size.
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October 8, 2009 10:12am
TripeWryter

To Luc Hansen:
Were you there when Steven Wallace was shot dead?
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October 8, 2009 10:23am
Patrick Starr

Johnboy, sounds like a good ‘springing’ – but if you sacked every active member of the Labour Party in the PS there’d be a lot of empty buildings in Wellington.
[name deleted by DPF] probably accounts for less than 1/2% of Hodgson and Mallards moles
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October 8, 2009 10:26am
getstaffed

Luc – re Hell, you’re asking the wrong question. Ask is anyone believes in the existence a spiritual dimension. The no’s obviously won’t believe in Hell other than a colloquial context (‘Spent the evening playing cards with my mother-in-law, it was hell’). From the Yes’s some will and other won’t. For the record I’m a yes, yes to those two questions. As for where Hell is, I can’t give you a Google Maps link.
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October 8, 2009 10:27am
andrei

More scary American fundamentalist extremism:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/05/conservative-bible-projec_n_310037.html

The nutters are rewriting the Bible to make it better suit their twisted world view.

Boy are you slow off the mark Luc – the “nutters” rewrote the Bible years ago to “better suit their twisted world view”
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October 8, 2009 10:29am
virtualmark

Luc, re the story in the Huffington Post about the fundamentalists creating a new interpretation of the Bible.

Christianity is a term that gets stretched pretty broadly, with people claiming to be Christians and yet coming from all parts of the spectrum and having some, shall we say, rather unique interpretations of the Christian faith which seem to speak more to their own prejudices, predilections and paranoias than to what you might think the core message really is.

Personally I think the “Conservative Bible Project” are a little out towards the lunatic fringe. I base that on things like “Express Free Market Parables” and “Exclude Later-Inserted Liberal Passages” that seem to me to be more about their own world-view than being about the core Christian message.

But Hell and the Devil are quite intrinsic parts of the Christian message. If you believe the Christian message then yes, believing in Hell and the Devil shouldn’t be too controversial.

And look, to be fair, the Christian message is pretty internally consistent on that sort of stuff. It hangs together in a much more consistent fashion than the alternatives a lot of people are prepared to adopt. For example, an increasing number of people would claim to be atheists, but atheism is nowhere near as internally consistent as Christianity and has a number of philosophical flaws.
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October 8, 2009 10:37am
gazzmaniac

Let’s have a Kiwiblog poll – anyone believe Hell exists? If yes, where?

Palmerston North?
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October 8, 2009 10:44am
queenstfarmer

@ KiwiGreg: your original message said “parade small business owners down Queen Street”. The proposal actually makes life a little bit easier for SBOs.

For large companies (of which sadly only a handful fall into the criteria you mention) filing accounts currently applies to foreign owned companies (>25%) and I don’t see any proposal to change that. In fact they suggest liberalising some reporting for foreign companies. E.g. “Our preliminary conclusions are that the filing requirements should be removed for non-large overseas incorporated companies”. Which is good.

“companies still need to file tax returns and will need accounts for those” – well how do you suggest companies should calculate and account for tax?!

If a company has no taxable activities it can apply for non-active status which means it doesn’t have to file a tax return. Useful if the company is simply a holding company.
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October 8, 2009 10:45am
Tassman

I picked this streak from YouTube by Laurel:

“Which race claimed to be Gods chosen people to possess the world’s resources and decide to cull the poor population? They mostly own the means of production in advanced nations and have taken it upon themselves to deploy psycho coercion and controlled of the consumer class; as well as ownership of patents of DNA in the treatment of diseases etc. Hitler could have known something we are not aware of. Why did Amadijenad want them to be wiped out of the face of the earth?”

She is known for her funny streaks ha ha aha ha ah!
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October 8, 2009 11:34am
KiwiGreg

@ queenstfarmer I guess I dont regard a company with 50 employees as anything other than a small business. This whole prurient exercise in forcing disclosure for private companies gets my blood pressure up. My point re tax is there is no practical saving for (really) small companies.
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October 8, 2009 12:01pm
Johnboy

Chrissy and Pete better get their bags packed.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10602008

Vanuatu this time.
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October 8, 2009 12:04pm
Kris K

Breaking News:

Another tsunami on the way.
Earthquake epicentre somewhere off Vanuatu.
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October 8, 2009 12:18pm
Fletch

Kris, yes i saw on the news!
Whoa.

If this brings one thought uppermost it is that in a disaster – be it Earthquake, Tsunami, or something caused by global warming – nations need the money and resources locally to handle it and to give aid, NOT to give to the United Nations to do….what? Take THAT to Copenhagen, John…
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October 8, 2009 12:29pm
Luc Hansen

Berlusconi has lost the immunity he granted himself.

I guess consorting with young girls was finally a step too far.

Three court cases are awaiting.
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October 8, 2009 12:49pm
Luc Hansen

More breaking news:

A pill to cure conservatism! Prozac has been found to “elasticize” one’s brain, thus finally offering deliverance form a closed mind!

Sorry guys, but there will be a delay before general availability: the factory is busy producing the extreme doses for Rush Limbaugh and Michael Laws. The trucks will be leaving soon.
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October 8, 2009 12:55pm
stephen

Anyone know why the bus company can lock out drivers for this ‘work to rule’ thing?!
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October 8, 2009 1:08pm
Luc Hansen

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/

oops, forgot the link for the above. RNZ podcast.

Stephen, any coordinated act in a dispute by employees is defined as a strike, to which a lockout is available as a response by the employer.

There was a case a few years ago of wholesale sacking of airline pilots because they all went off sick on the same day.
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October 8, 2009 1:23pm
Kris K

Fletch 12:29 pm,

If this brings one thought uppermost it is that in a disaster – be it Earthquake, Tsunami, or something caused by global warming – nations need the money and resources locally to handle it and to give aid, NOT to give to the United Nations to do….what? Take THAT to Copenhagen, John…

Absolutely agree Fletch.
The fact that most nations have signed up with the UN will, of course, be problematic.
I think the only hope is for an ‘act of God’ to occur during a full sitting of the UN, with the epicentre directly below its HQ.
My person belief is that we are going to see more of these ‘natural’ disasters occurring with the likely result of many countries being bankrupted as the damage bills run up. This will likely result in greater dependence on the UN, and therefore increasing levels of loss of sovereignty of many nation states.

New World Order here we come.
Gee, where have I read that before? I’m sure it’ll come to me? Oh, that’s right …
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October 8, 2009 1:24pm
Kris K

Luc Hansen 12:55 pm,

More breaking news:
A pill to cure conservatism! Prozac has been found to “elasticize” one’s brain, thus finally offering deliverance form a closed mind!

How ironic!
One of the most oned eyed, close minded commentators here suggesting a cure for “a closed mind”.
You first, Luc.
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October 8, 2009 1:31pm
stephen

Stephen, any coordinated act in a dispute by employees is defined as a strike, to which a lockout is available as a response by the employer.

If those are the rules then those are the rules – I do wonder how following the rules to the letter can be counted as a ‘coordinated action’ and not simply ‘obeying the rules as set out’ (in their contracts?) though!
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October 8, 2009 1:35pm
jabba

another earthquake .. I hope Chris Carter has his bags packed, they may need him in Vanuatu
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October 8, 2009 2:01pm
Luc Hansen

It something I struggled with when I studied employment law, and it essentially derives from the fact that our common law is set by the elites of society, the Judges.

Employment Law used to called the Law of Master and Servant.

For example, the early union movement was criminalised as a conspiracy.

One aspect I remember clearly from when I studied it (in the mid- late 1990s) was one of our leading books of employment law contained, from memory, 30 pages of duties of the employee and only 9 for the employer. Just gives a bit of perspective.
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October 8, 2009 2:36pm
Fletch

All these earthquakes etc, almost sounds like what is going to happen at end times –

From Luke 21 –

Nations will go to war against one another, and kingdoms will attack each other. There will be great earthquakes, and in many places people will starve to death and suffer terrible diseases. All sorts of frightening things will be seen in the sky.

[..]

Strange things will happen to the sun, moon, and stars. The nations on earth will be afraid of the roaring sea and tides, and they won’t know what to do. People will be so frightened that they will faint because of what is happening to the world. Every power in the sky will be shaken.

Speaking of strange things in the sky, it seems the scientists have discovered a new, huge, ring around Saturn they never knew was there..
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091007/ap_on_sc/us_saturn_giant_ring
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October 8, 2009 2:38pm
Luc Hansen

Kris K

Well done

Hook, line and sinker! 🙂 🙂
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October 8, 2009 2:42pm
nickb

Looks like IRD have another banking scalp
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October 8, 2009 2:51pm
Kris K

Fletch 2:38 pm,

At least earthquakes and ‘signs in the sky’ can’t be attributed to Anthropogenic Global Warming – although I’m sure some idiot will try.

Man’s ignorance is truly immense regarding the creation; almost as large as our arrogance.
When peoples’ eyes are finally opened to the truth I’m sure there will be great surprise – not to mention a little ‘teeth nashing’.
You, I and many others here recognise many of these ‘signs’ as harbingers of the end of the age. When we see these things beginning to come to pass we’re encouraged to: “look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I always take comfort in this.
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October 8, 2009 3:01pm
stephen

.Speaking of strange things in the sky, it seems the scientists have discovered a new, huge, ring around Saturn they never knew was there..

There are much much weirder things in the universe than a giant dust ring 😀
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October 8, 2009 3:02pm
getstaffed

The crown is $1b better off today:

IRD wins against Westpac
The Inland Revenue Department is welcoming a ruling from the High Court in Auckland ordering Westpac to pay $961 million in back taxes.

In a decision released today, Justice Rhys Harrison has ruled the “structured finance” transactions were “tax avoidance arrangements entered into for a purpose of avoiding tax,” IRD said.

“The Commissioner has correctly adjusted the deductions claimed by Westpac in order to counteract its tax advantage gained under an avoided arrangement,” he said in the ruling.

The judge added that the total amount of tax at issue was $961 million including voluntary payments of $443 million made by Westpac under protest.

I wonder what ‘voluntary payments made under protest’ are?
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October 8, 2009 3:08pm
KiwiGreg

@ getstaffed you pay the tax in dispute to stop the interest running if you lose – for a bank the IRD interest rate will be higher than their cost of funds so makes sense.
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October 8, 2009 3:15pm
Chuck Bird

For those living in or near Hamilton

Boscawen Challenges Local MPs To Front
John Boscawen MP, ACT New Zealand

DID YOU VOTE “NO” IN THE ANTI – SMACKING REFERENDUM?

Do you think National and Labour should listen to you?

ACT MP John Boscawen has a Private Member’s Bill to amend the law so that it is clear that a light smack as part of good parental correction is no longer a criminal offence.

National and Labour have said they currently intend to vote against this bill.

HELP US CHANGE THE LAW!

Come to our next Public Meetings

Hamilton – Thursday 8 October 7.30pm, Hamilton Central
Baptist Church, 33 Charlemont Street, Hamilton.

Speakers – John Boscawen, ACT MP, Bob McCoskrie, Family First,
Larry Baldock, Referendum Organiser.

John Boscawen will be inviting the local MP to each of the meetings
and Sue Bradford,Green MP.

Sue Bradford will not be coming but both David Bennett and Tim Macindoe, National MPs will be there.

Come along and learn about what you can do to help us change the law!
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October 8, 2009 3:24pm
village idiot

Chuck – will Boscawen be wearing his traditional lamington and will ‘hangman’s knot’ be the style for those wearing ties?
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October 8, 2009 3:31pm
village idiot

Got a bit of a tickle in my throat – must go and ask Nanny if I can have a prescription to buy some cough mixture.

I DON”T MIND PAYING TO SEE THE DOCTOR FOR A PRESCRIPTION FOR SOMETHING I’VE ALWAYS BEEN FREE TO BUY OVER THE COUNTER.

Thanks Nanny!
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October 8, 2009 3:36pm
starboard

…wheres phil whore…I miss his ramblings…not
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October 8, 2009 3:48pm
Luc Hansen

virtualmark,

It’s good to see you are coming closer to rational discussion. We can all argue till the cows home over history, but it simply bears no relevance to today’s facts and this is not the place for that.

Let’s cut to the chase. The past is the past. Objectively, neither Arabs, Palestinians nor Jews have covered themselves in humanitarian glory during the whole debacle. But the Jews certainly won the military round!

But right now all but one of the members of the UN, the Arab League, the splintered Palestinian leadership of Fatah and Hamas, and, polls consistently demonstrate, most Palestinians and Israelis are in favour of the two state solution, mainly, except for the extremist “settlers” of the West Bank and Israel’s ruling elite, including the IOF, along the 1967 armistice lines.

But Israel, the state, wants to a) acquire as much as they can of the occupied West Bank in terms of land and resources and b) for Palestinians to live in a subjugated state forever. This is a modern version of the Versailles Treaty which set the scene for WWII.

There is currently no Palestinian state and allowing for the creation of one is not on Israel’s horizons.

There was headline in yesterday’s Herald: Sworn Enemies ready to Bury the Hatchet. The article was about Japan and China, bitter foes since 1894, discussing forming an economic union.

I look forward to seeing the same headline one day referring to Israel and Palestinians.

I’ll copy you earlier post to my blog and do some work on it as time permits simply because it would be good for the non-aligned reader. Same with KIA. But you and KIA and others who simply, in my opinion, operate on blind prejudice, will not accept my sources anyway, so let’s not bore the people on here anymore on historical aspects.

By the way, atheism cannot have philosophical flaws because it is not a philosophy. In one form, it is merely an absence of belief. In another, it asserts that no god/gods exist. It can be accused of a logical flaw in the latter assertion, in that it is logically impossible to prove that a god does not exist. then it becomes a matter of probabilities and the reason to suspect god does not exist is simply so overwhelming as to be self-evident.

Time to take my one year old for an outing.
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October 8, 2009 3:49pm
nickb

For once I agree with you VI
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October 8, 2009 3:52pm
side show bob

Boy the Mac Daddy administration has some sick puppies in it. One of his czars, a Kevin Jennings ( safe school czar) has been revealed to be a strong supporter of NAMBLA. For fucks sake, what a mickey mouse outfit the Obama cheer squad are, the US is doomed with two bobs like this sicko pulling the strings. Talk about the mice running the cheese factory.
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October 8, 2009 3:53pm
lofty

@Fletch 2:38 very interesting about the new ring around Saturn, but my question is…are there dirty rings around Uranus 🙂
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October 8, 2009 3:59pm
virtualmark

Luc, why do I feel patronised by your comment “It’s good to see you are coming closer to rational discussion”? I’ve been commenting on DPF’s blog for several years now, and I’d like to think I have always offered rational discussion. I would say all my posts over the last few days on the Israeli-Palestinian imbroglio have been very rational and pragmatic. I posed pragmatic rational questions for you which, so far, I’ve not seen answered. I’d also suggest I am much closer to a neutral point-of-view on the Israeli-Palestinian issue than you.

As for atheism … of course it’s a philosophy. It’s a philosophy that starts from the point of view that there is no God, and then attempts to develop a basis for existence, morals, purpose and so on (those things which are the purpose of philosophy and of religion). Atheism is every bit as much a belief system as Christianity and other religions. But it does have significant flaws which, in my opinion, both (i) render it unattractive and (ii) are often ignored by its adherents.
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October 8, 2009 4:37pm
Hurf Durf

The article was about Japan and China, bitter foes since 1894, discussing forming an economic union.

LOL. Love the Huruld spinning for the SDP. Anyone who’s looked at South East Asian politics knows this won’t happen for a decade, at least.
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October 8, 2009 10:03pm
Luc Hansen

Virtual,

someone who posts a long diatribe demonising Palestinians and finding no fault with the other side deserves to be patronised. You are living too much in a blog comunity with a narrow view of the world. Your view necessarily entails seeing Arabs as less than human. Racist.

So I see nothing pragmatic in your posts. I see only a one-eyed view. I don’t understand that. I presume you are Kiwi.

You may be interested only in the past, but I am mainly concerned with the present and the future. I note with interest that you ( and KIA, by the by) have not offered any contribution about the future. Specifically, do you support, as does, officially, the US, a two state solution based on 242?

Can you give a straight answer?

As with the definition of racism, you invent your own definition of atheism. Humanism and various other concepts do attempt to develop a theory of non-religious ethics or, if you like, morality. Atheism does not. Atheism is an absence of belief. Period. The misconception that atheism entails a replacement for belief is exacty that, a misconception.

For me, there is no need to develop an alternative to religious belief. I am quite happy with my evolutionary instincts. Going by your post on Palestinians, your belief system suks.
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October 8, 2009 10:29pm
Luc Hansen

Hey Hurf, a 10 yr wind down to a 100+ year hostility is still pretty damn good, don’t you think?
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October 8, 2009 10:31pm
Viking2

Why can’t General Debate each day begin at an hour where the workers can comment before the rest get out of bed.?
am would be good.

Then I could post about the efficient toll collection instigated by the last govt and continued by this one on the Puhoi highway(unlike Tauranga where we have and still employ the old technology of collecting the cash.)

Brian Rudman: Agency’s $1.29 credibility toll
4:00AM Friday Oct 09, 2009
By Brian Rudman

In 2005, there were red faces all round when Transit New Zealand admitted its calculations showed $1.35 of the proposed $1.80 car toll for the Orewa-to-Puhoi motorway would be gobbled up in administration costs.

Pardon? To me, having to spend $1.29 to collect a $2 toll shows anything but this.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10602181&pnum=0
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October 9, 2009 6:50am
Georgie

i am sorry but tau henare and trevor mallard ?? and why pray tell should their views on Maoris be taken seriously? one used to be winston’s henchman, the other has a long political career of maori bashing and stirring . . . and in response to the claim that ethnic minoroties cannot be racist: then what does that make winston? he’s proud to be maori but hates foreigners
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October 12, 2009 1:32pm

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