General Debate 4 October 2009

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Patrick Starr

well done the Black Caps!!!!!!
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October 4, 2009 10:01am
Viking2

Absolutely.
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October 4, 2009 10:09am
Peter

Green troughers exposed on q&a

About time, MSM…..
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October 4, 2009 10:09am
littlebluedroid

DPF I think you need to send press releases to TVNZ when you uncover stuff. Just watched Q+A and was a bit sick at how they were all congratulating guyen when you have been going on about Greens and the housing allowance for months.

Esp when you consider how they found out about the Crafer farms earlier in the week………
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October 4, 2009 10:12am
Patrick Starr

Black caps will challenge for the champions trophy

…..and the Greens will now defend their champion troughing
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October 4, 2009 10:13am
tom hunter

There was an awful lot of – ahem – discussion, about Israel/Iran yesterday on the General Debate thread, so it’s a shame that the following piece of news did not come out until last night. Mr Ahamadinejad is a jew!

In these days of PhotoShop it’s always possible the picture has been doctored, but one would like to think that The Telegraph is aware of that now and has checked. It would certainly explain a lot about Mr Ahamadinejad’s public statements about Israel!!!
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October 4, 2009 10:22am
Redbaiter

Dennis Miller (Comedian) on why he likes Sarah Palin-

“She irritates the hell out of just the kind of people I like to see irritated”.
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October 4, 2009 10:35am
Scorpio

RE the Q&A interview with the Greens’ co-leader. She stated that she supported ‘fair trade’ not ‘free trade’. I was just wondering who she thinks should decide what’s ‘fair’? Because as far as I can see, the only people who can decide what’s fair are the the parties to the trade. Any interference in that makes it unfair.
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October 4, 2009 10:36am
Pete George

Why don’t you look at being positive rather than being a try hard irritant RB? Or would would you rather remain a grizzler?
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October 4, 2009 10:38am
Patrick Starr

Will Metiria now insist the spelling be changed to “trouwhing” ? – as they now seem to own it
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October 4, 2009 10:44am
big bruv

Anyone got a link to this mornings Q&A, I hear that the Greens took a beating.
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October 4, 2009 12:02pm
David Farrar

Yes Metiria was pretty appalling, not just on the housing stuff, but also on free trade. She wouldn’t even say if the Greens support CER with Australia. I will blog transcripts once TVNZ sends them to me.
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October 4, 2009 12:08pm
village idiot

Metiria was not at all ‘appalling’ David. The questions she was asked by Espiner could not be effectively answered by a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’, as Espiner seemed to demand and her efforts to explain the full ramifications were not as tidy as a viewing audience demands. ‘The housing stuff’? I can’t imagine what it was about the insulation programme that you imagine she put badly. What do you mean? The CER was a good example of an issue that needs more than glib answer and Metiria did her best to explain some of the depth to that relationship, despite Espiners constant badgering for a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’. For all that, it was not an interview that will raise the spirits of Green viewers. The ‘housing issue’ will provide plenty of ammunition for those smarting from the English mess. They at least will get a chance to stop defending and take up the cudgels.

[DPF: If you do not think that is an appalling performance, you are so blinkered you have lost perspective. I bet you Metiria herself knows she fucked up. Ask any journalist watching and they’ll say the same.

I could list a dozen ways she could have handled it better. First if all actually have a position on CER. Secondly she should have on the housing stuff said how appalled she was when this was discovered, and how she is making sure it can never happen again.]
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October 4, 2009 12:20pm
nickb

What an awesome weekend for NZ sport!

The Tuaman knocks out Cameron, and the Black Caps make the Campions Trophy Final.
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October 4, 2009 12:24pm
Auberon

Who is E Campbell?

There’s an E. Campbell result if you search “campbell” on the Republican Movement of Aotearoa website.

And there’s a frankly absurd letter in today’s Sunday Star Times decrying the Royal Family from an E Campbell of Christchurch.

But there’s no disclosure under the letter that E Campbell is a member of the Republican Movement.

Perhaps they’re different people.

Who would know?
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October 4, 2009 12:25pm
Auberon

Just watched the Q&A interview on TVNZ’s website. There’s a problem for Metiria Turei when she said “we do a market valuation every year.” Oh really? So we’re supposed to believe that the value of the house has halved in the past year? That’s a problem Metiria. You guys have more money to pay back – lots more.
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October 4, 2009 12:39pm
Patrick Starr

wait for it…… greenfly will next claim that nasty Mr Espiner was either maori bashing – or woman bashing

how dare he interview the lefties in that manner ! – do it again and you’ll be on the green party ever growing ban list
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October 4, 2009 12:41pm
MT_Tinman

nickb (540) Vote: 0 0 Says:
October 4th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
What an awesome weekend for NZ sport!

The Tuaman knocks out Cameron, and the Black Caps make the Campions Trophy Final

How is a Samoan American beating the NZ chap awesome for NZ sport?
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October 4, 2009 12:51pm
nickb

You mean a Samoan born New Zealander?

Because the best man won and beat the pretender.
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October 4, 2009 12:55pm
Patrick Starr

Not the first time the Greens ‘super’ has been looked at sideways. (the difference is who was in government at the time?)
“Greens hand over super fund details. Tuesday Feb 27, 2001”
“Such a valuation would be protection from any assertion that you were rorting the system or that Parliamentary Service was sloppy in administration of public funds,”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=173969

as Auberton said “Oh really? So we’re supposed to believe that the value of the house has halved in the past year?”
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October 4, 2009 12:58pm
malcolm

Yes Metiria was pretty appalling

She’s wearing another neck sculpture. Every time I see her she’s wearning a new bit of civic art around her neck. Like a millstone. This is classic “never mind what I say, just look how cool I am” stuff. Sorry, Metiria, all hat and no cattle.
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October 4, 2009 1:01pm
village idiot

Patrick Starr – I’ve got it! You reminded me of someone, someone who is dedicated to the art of avoiding questions, attacking the questioner instead! Now I’ve seen through the clouds of obfustication! You’re of the Winston Peters School of Avoidance and Double-Talk! I’ll never ask again.

I’ll not claim Espiner was ‘maori bashing’ or that he was ‘woman bashing’ so you’re wrong on both counts Winston!
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October 4, 2009 1:07pm
backster

Another great blog by Lindsay Mitchell on comparison of welfare in UK and NZ…This is the type of truth our politicians and commentators need to confront…..”Sir Norman Bettison, chief constable of West Yorkshire Police, summed up the situation starkly: ‘We are talking here about the perverting influence of welfare. The more kids you have, the more money you get.'”……..NZ figures worse than theirs, and Maoris stats more than twice theirs.
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October 4, 2009 1:17pm
jabba

I thought she was a shocker .. I expect to hear that Jim Anderton will be making a complaint about the Greens housing “mistake”
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October 4, 2009 1:26pm
reid

She was indeed a shocker. Isn’t it curious how she couldn’t even answer Yes or No to the very simple question: do you support CER?

Meanwhile, the most significant global news story is the Irish endorsement of Lisbon. Bugger. The black hands were crapping themselves as without that, their NWO was dead in the water.
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October 4, 2009 1:33pm
Viking2

Boring day and conversation so here’s a little song to make you all laugh. Its for the boys (no swearing but just a bit different) so if you are a bit shy or don’t like boy bits don’t watch, OK.

http://www.igc.be/igc/dearpenis.htm
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October 4, 2009 1:37pm
burt

I couldn’t believe it…. In the photo’s on stuff for the Tua vs Cameron there is also a picture of John Hopoate (22 of 31)

LOW BLOW: John Hopoate complains to the referee about being hit below the belt in his bout with Colin Wilson during the “Fight of the Century” undercard.

How could he complain about that?
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October 4, 2009 1:41pm
metcalph

Iran’s president is apparently Jewish
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October 4, 2009 1:42pm
Luc Hansen

The other day I posted a request that teaching religion to our kids should be outlawed. The response was not overwhelmingly positive, I must say.

And that is strange because it is one way to overcome what many see as the potential threat of the inexorable march of Islam in the western world, capitalising on the emphasis in our culture on personal freedom.

But, I have a supporter!!!

Radio Live played this audio essay Sat morning

http://www.radiolive.co.nz/AudioArchive/AudioOnDemand/tabid/344/language/en-NZ/Default.aspx

You need to pick the Sat 12.45 timeslot and he comes on at the finish of Vicki Hyde’s interview – also good listening.

Now the essay is very funny but the guy is also very passionate. He has his own website but you will have to listen to the essay to get the link ‘cos this week’s charity rations went to Samoa.

And some may argue that he has a bad case of Islamophobia.

And Tom Hunter, dear chap. Even if it is true, so what? We all know that Nejad has some loopy views on the holocaust, although his main complaint, on his saner days, is that it is a European problem, not a Mideast one. That is a valid view but I fear the horse has well and truly bolted on Nejad there 🙂

You need to understand that Israel uses conflict (conflicts the dopey US is all to keen to join in and even do the job for Israel) to enhance its reputation as the rabid dog of the Mideast. The last thing it wants to do is roll over and have its tummy tickled. You should checkout the post at http://www.juancole.com on myths and facts about Iran.
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October 4, 2009 1:50pm
burt

Further to that link, in (23 of 31) I bet Hopoate is cursing the fact he is wearing a boxing glove!
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October 4, 2009 1:51pm
Elijah Lineberry

What is frustrating is how National/ACT politicians do not start highlighting some of the Green party nonsense.

I know National/ACT are limp dick wimps on most things but are you fellows really so afraid of a handful of lunatic marxists???

Their opposition to CER should be shouted from the rooftops, along with the number of jobs lost were a Green govt to end that agreement, along with the lost exports, along with the damage to the economy (etc)

The Greens are 20,000 votes away from annihilation and I think a focus on getting them down to 4.9% (rather than wasting time on Labour) should be more of a priority.

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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October 4, 2009 1:51pm
Johnboy

“Iran’s president is apparently Jewish”

He certainly has the nose for it.
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October 4, 2009 1:55pm
Kris K

reid 1:33 pm,

Meanwhile, the most significant global news story is the Irish endorsement of Lisbon. Bugger. The black hands were crapping themselves as without that, their NWO was dead in the water.

Treaty of Lisbon
Just what I was thinking – New World Order one step closer.
That’s now 24 of the 27 member states which have ratified the Lisbon Treaty:

Negotiations to modify EU institutions began in 2001, resulting first in the European Constitution, which failed due to rejection by French and Dutch voters in 2005. The Constitution’s replacement, the Lisbon Treaty, was originally intended to have been ratified by all member states by the end of 2008. This timetable did however fail, primarily due to the rejection of the Treaty in 2008 by the Irish electorate. This decision was however reversed in a second referendum in 2009. As of 3 October 2009 (2009 -10-03)[update], 24 of the total 27 member states have ratified the Treaty[5], with formal ratification processes in Ireland, as well as the signatures of the Czech and Polish Presidents being remaining obstacles before the Treaty can enter into force. This is currently scheduled to take place 1 Jauary 2010.

The global implications of this once fully implimented are truly scary.
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October 4, 2009 2:53pm
getstaffed

Our church is helping fill a shipping container with supplies destined for Samoa. We’re keen to have it full to the gunnels with:-

– Pots, pans and other non-electrical cooking things
– Sheets (no blankets)
– Clothing suitable for hot climates (shorts, t’s, trousers)

If anyone is keen to contribute then please box up your gifts and label them ‘SAMOA’. Drop into one of these locations by 12 noon tomorrow Monday:-

(a) Today Sunday, to Wellington Aero Club, 246 Coutts Street, Rongotai 6022, Wellington

(b) Monday morning, to the Guardbox, Wingnut productions, Stone St, Miramar
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October 4, 2009 3:03pm
Kris K

tom hunter 10:22 am,

There was an awful lot of – ahem – discussion, about Israel/Iran yesterday on the General Debate thread, so it’s a shame that the following piece of news did not come out until last night. Mr Ahamadinejad is a jew!

Could Ahamadinejad be the Antichrist?
Indeed!
If Ahamadinejad has a Jewish background, but now worships Allah as a Muslim, then this has some interesting possible implications when considering Daniel’s prophecy regarding the Antichrist:

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Perhaps unlikely for other reasons, but he may meet at least some of the above criteria.
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October 4, 2009 3:44pm
virtualmark

Luc, as I responded earlier … it is clear that Iran is working hard to develop nuclear weapons. Juan Cole is mis-guided if he believes Iran has peaceful intentions. As a simple example, see http://www.isis-online.org/publications/iran/IAEA_info_3October2009.pdf for a brief summary of recent IAEA findings. Likewise see http://www.isisnucleariran.org/static/297/ for a similar style of “Misconceptions about Iran’s nuclear programme” to Juan Cole’s blog post.

As for your post earlier in the week positing that teaching religion to our kids should be banned … what perchance then would you suggest we teach them about philosophy, faith & beliefs? Interested to hear just what you would personally like to see take the place of religious faith.
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October 4, 2009 4:38pm
LUCY

Report says Iran has data to make atom bomb
Sat Oct 3, 2009 7:18pm EDT Reuters

And this is news because????????????
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October 4, 2009 5:25pm
backster

Luc Hansen;;;;;;;; Christian churches up and down the country are raising funds for Samoa.. Can you advise the collection points for Atheists.
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October 4, 2009 5:46pm
malcolm

Backster, here’s a few:

Oxfam – http://www.oxfam.org.nz
Red Cross – http://www.redcross.org.nz
Save The Children – http://www.savethechildren.co.nz
Unicef – http://www.unicef.co.nz
Plenty of others collecting for Samoa.

You misunderstand the term atheist. It means an absence of belief in god/gods/divine beings etc. The absence of a belief doesn’t make a group. It just seems like a group, to religious people who have an us-and-them view instilled by their religion. Which is just a way to keep them inside the mental bubble of their religion.

Asking an atheist why they don’t act together with other atheists, is like asking an evangelical christian why they aren’t in a group with Bahais/Buddhists/Catholics/Confucians/Cooperites/Gnostics/Hindus/Jains/Jews/Lutherans/Moonies/Mormons/Muslims/New Agers/Pagans/Rastafarians/Satanists/Scientologists/Shintos/Sikhs/Taoists etc.
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October 4, 2009 6:33pm
Redbaiter

Liberal comedians finally turn on Obama-

http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/10/snl-unloads-on-obama-for-not.html
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October 4, 2009 8:21pm
Kris K

backster 5:46 pm,

Luc Hansen;;;;;;;; Christian churches up and down the country are raising funds for Samoa.. Can you advise the collection points for Atheists.

I’m sure if Luc wants to donate funds, etc most churches would likely accept them on his behalf – even if he is an atheist.
God can use even atheists to bless His children and those in need. He’s good like that.
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October 4, 2009 8:32pm
Luc Hansen

virtualmark

have you actually read the posting of Cole’s I suggested? Cole’s point is not to guess at intentions but to examine the evidence. Iran is intent on, and has publicly stated this, mastering the nuclear fuel cycle. Doing this automatically puts it at what is termed the “threshold level” for constructing nuclear weapons.

But Iran also has a very sound economic case for nuclear power, a case so sound that when the US puppet the Shah was in power the US was actively assisting Iran in this project. Trade economics tells us that foreign currency is king for any economy. Nuclear power carries costs that may outweigh the internal cost of burning its fossil fuel but the fossil fuel can earn export dollars. And enriching one’s own uranium secures one’s supply line – a given for we so-called civilised western nations (just a hint at double standards here).

Bottom line, Iran is a weak, underdeveloped country. The idea that it can pose a threat anytime within 100 years is just silly- and by then its oil will have run out. And please don’t talk about mad Mullahs. That’s just religious and racial prejudice.

As for with what I propose to replace religious faith? I don’t propose anything. I exist with, as an above poster pointed out, an absence of faith. There is nothing to replace.

But as long as Iran stays within the terms of the NPT, all that it does is legal. As Cole says, we can’t (he meant “shouldn’t”, because we do) attack on intuition.

War is a serious business. Just look at Iraq. ISIS points out that faulty intelligence on Iraq is now leading to scepticism on allegations against Iran. It misses the point. There was NO on the ground intelligence on Iraq, just there is none on Iran. This latest “revelation” is not a surprise to our great leaders of the free world. It just suited them to present it as such.

Now we need to look at the wider picture. We (the West) have made Iranians lives a misery since 1953 when we organised the overthrow of their elected PM because he committed the cardinal sin of nationalising their natural resources, at the very same time as Britain was doing the same. This eventually brought the radicalised Ayotallah to power. Instead of atoning for our sins we carried on demonising a nation we had just spent decades oppressing (via the Shah).

Now let’s look even wider. To pretend Iran can be a threat to the west, even, according to that mendacious thug, Netanyahu, is risible. Cole lays out why. It’s just a repeat of the samr nonsense that saw Blair warning Britain that Iraq could destroy Britain in…what was it? 48mins? More risibility: Iraq had been under severe sanctions which, incidentally, directly led to the deaths of over 500.000 Iraqi children.

Ah, the humanity of the West. And Christianity. May God forgive the Christians, I say…Kris K

Do people really not understand that the US economy and herd mentality needs to demonise the weak, create conflict and war. Israel desperately needs the world distracted from its crimes in Palestine ’48 AND assumes the stance that the only way to ensure its continued existence is to keep its hostile neighbours in a constant state of terror.

And why are their neighbours hostile? Because of the treatment it has meted out to Palestinians since the arrival in Israel of the Zionists. The solution to this hostility is to reach a just settlement in the conflict. It is obvious that Israel doesn’t want this. It prefers ongoing land grabs, which it can get away with as long as the US concurs. So Israel’s rulers know that it must alway remain dominate in the Mideast; always have a new demon to direct its vitriol and weapons at; and carry on its genocide of Palestinians.

And briefly, I don’t propose replacing the redundant concept of religious belief with anything. I just propose not ramming it down our kids throats until they are old enough to think for themselves.
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October 4, 2009 11:13pm
Hurf Durf

Juan Cole is an anti-Western moron and your argument sounds a lot like that clod Biden’s. We should have crushed the Shah in 1979 and would’ve done if Jimmah Cartah wasn’t obsessed with human rights.

carry on its genocide of Palestinians

Some genocide. Sixty years and the population keeps increasing. They should probably get on with it.

Also, change the record, I’m bored of hearing your whine about tha jooooooooooooooooooooooz and the poor oppwessed muzzies.
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October 4, 2009 11:56pm
Luc Hansen

A compelling argument, Hurf, as always (yeah right!), and as always, completely bereft of reason.

As regards crushing the Shah, I think you mean the Ayatollah, old chap (apologies to Elijah). Such a “crushing” is, of course, exemplified by the triumph of the US in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. The ultimate crushing is annihilation. Is that what you mean?

And as regards genocide, this is the UN definition of genocide: “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”[1]

Just as Hitler attempted genocide on a religious group, the European Jews, so that group is attempting the same on the ethnic group of Arab Palestinians.

And Hurf, I take it you would prefer that Africans still be enslaved in the US, subject to apartheid in SA and subject to European colonialist exploitation in general. Right?

As a final point of the ridicule you so richly deserve, Palestinians are, in fact, getting on with it. They are resisting dispossession, occupation and oppression and they are, as you point out, multiplying. As far as getting on with it goes, after 60 years it is outstanding!

I mean no offence, but you are obviously racist and similarly inclined as regards religion.

Why?
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October 5, 2009 12:47am
Hurf Durf

Meh. One can’t use reason against unreasonable people like you. It’s a lesson I learned long ago.

I’m just sick of hearing about the poor oppwessed widdle “Palestinians” who shouldn’t even exist (they should be Egyptians and Jordanians by now) and who get support from hand-wringing toenail-painting sandal-clad cretins in the West whom in all likelihood would be the first to be killed in the glorious new Palestinian republic if they were there. I’m sick and tired of trillions of Western money going down that toilet to “rebuild” houses that’ll just be used to hide rockets and siphoned off to buy the rockets. As an atheist, I’m sick and tired of hypocrites like you whining about Christianity being taught in school and yet you don’t apply the same standards to Islam or the anti-Semitic shite being forced down the throats of “Pali” children, and when I bring up that it is a violent clitcutting mooncult that brings nothing but pain and misery to wherever it touches, you whine that I’m religionist or whatever trendy bullshit phrase.

And yes, I did mean the Ayatollah. You know he was hiding out in France and had the support of Western media? Wow, the more things change, right?

And yes, they multiply like a malignant tumour much like how they do in Europe. Soon they too will degenerate into clitcutting and minarets and the only opposition you will raise is when they shut down your organic food shop because the carrots aren’t halal.

Fuck off. I’m tired of you backing anti-Westerners at every turn. South Africa, yes, it was inhumane and horrendous, but at least they were on our side in the Cold War. They could even maintain a substantial military under heavy sanctions. Now what are they? A shithole that can’t even change its traffic lights. You bitch and moan about “Western imperialism” while China buys up everything not nailed to the ground in Africa. You try and dislodge a violent dictatorship in the Middle East and the felchers whine about “no blood for oil.” Russia invades a Western ally and where’s the fucking indignation from you? Where’s the “NOT IN OUR NAME” while Russian forces ethnically cleanse South Ossetia of Georgians?

But the strange thing is, it’s not the muslims or the Chinese or the Russians who are the greatest threat to the West. It’s people like you. Fifth columnists. People who want to destroy economic growth in the name of Mother Gaia. People who want to shut off free trade – the only thing that has secured peace in the West since 1945. You think your fucking protests do jack shit? People like you who support dictatorial thugs like Chavez and yet when a country tries to stop this, such as Honduras, all I ever here is fucks like you calling it a coup. Fucks like you who want to use “climate change” as an excuse to funnel even more money into developmental black holes. Fucks like you who celebrate whenever the West or capitalism or parliamentarianism stumbles.

Fucks like you are a cancer.
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October 5, 2009 1:15am
Luc Hansen

Wow, you type fast, mate! Bloody well done in that time.

Cancer is a bit of a sensitive topic for me: I lost my wife to that and spent some time in the wilderness before finding my feet again with a new wife and now a lovely baby daughter. So can we drop that one?

For the rest, I really should go to bed but I can’t resist the challenge of rebutting a good rant so I will start tonight but check back tomorrow for more, OK?
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October 5, 2009 1:41am
Hurf Durf

My apologies. It was the best analogy I could think of.
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October 5, 2009 1:47am
Luc Hansen

hurf

You wrote: “I’m just sick of hearing about the poor oppwessed widdle “Palestinians” who shouldn’t even exist (they should be Egyptians and Jordanians by now)”

That’s a text book example of inciting genocide. Look at the definition posted above. Try to concentrate long enough to read it. I won’t ask you to comprehend it, though. I fear that would be a step too far. I’m going to forward your comment to the Human Rights Commission for their opinion. Feel free to do the same for any of my comments that you feel indicate prejudice.

As regards your rant about religion, I provided a link in my posting @ 1.54pm today, above, to an audio essay with which I largely agree. We are a secular country and it is imperative we keep it that way, in my opinion. But everyone has the right to a religious belief, if they so wish. That is also an imperative. I just don’t think it should be brainwashed into our kids. I remember my sons, now in their middle to late 30s, being told one day that I had turned them against religion. They replied that, in fact, it was never talked about at home. I left it to them to decide when they were ready.

Now let’s talk about the Ayatollah. I make no bones about it, the Islamic regimes are, to me, deeply unpleasant regimes. But it’s none of my business. In Iran, the Shah fucked it up by repressing his people in favour of colonialist exploitation. The people were thus radicalised. You reap what you sow. Just not liking a regime or a country is not a reason to invade.

As regards SA, what happens when freedom from colonialism arrives is none of our business. It’s all fucked up by us in the first place. Being on “our side” is not a good reason for apartheid, dispossession and oppression…sound familiar?

All dictatorships in the Middle East are violent. Probably the worst at the moment is Egypt. But he’s OUR dictator, so that’s OK. Right?

I can’t be bothered with the rest except to say that since NZ only emits 0.2% of the carbon gases worldwide, I don’t think we should sacrifice ourselves on the alter of emissions reduction.

And I love economic growth, sorry.
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October 5, 2009 2:17am
Hurf Durf

That’s a text book example of inciting genocide.

If you’ve ever pulled your finger out of that arsehole you call a brain, you’d realise that because Gaza and the West Bank was Egyptian and Jordanian controlled respectively after the 1948 war, they had a duty to absorb the Palestinians in those areas whose chance for an independent state was dashed when Egypt and Jordan among other tried to destroy Israel. Instead, they left them to rot in overcrowded refugee camps to use as political footballs against Israel, who had successfully integrated Arab Jews who fled their countries to escape consequent oppression from their own regimes for their failed military adventure. These Arabs now enjoy the same political freedoms and development as the descendants of European Jews who moved there. An inconvenient truth for fascist Islam’s supporters, and why I put that they shouldn’t “exist.” I know what genocide is, Mr Hansen, and Israel does not practice it, no matter how much you want them to so you can perpetuate your perverse fantasies. And please, feel free to forward my rebuttal to the Human Rights Commission too.

just don’t think it should be brainwashed into our kids.

Does that liberty extend to Palestinian children who have anti-Semitic and anti-Christian hatred forced down their throats in Gaza?

what happens when freedom from colonialism arrives is none of our business.

Yes, it is. Welcome to the world of international power politics.

It’s all fucked up by us in the first place.

Yeah, bad old us who gave them roads and infrastructure and a civil service and ideas of responsible government and oh wait hang on.

Being on “our side” is not a good reason for apartheid, dispossession and oppression…sound familiar?

No. Also see point 3.

All dictatorships in the Middle East are violent. Probably the worst at the moment is Egypt. But he’s OUR dictator, so that’s OK. Right?

Yes. Better Mubarak than the Muslim Brotherhood. See point 5.

I can’t be bothered with the rest except to say that since NZ only emits 0.2% of the carbon gases worldwide, I don’t think we should sacrifice ourselves on the alter of emissions reduction.

And I love economic growth, sorry.

Good.
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October 5, 2009 2:55am
Robert Black

I would like to be the first on congratulating Shane Cameron on being a total, 100%, home grown Maori warrior:

White skin.

Maori tats (tough guy).

Foul mouth retard before the fight.

Lazy, undisciplined, untrained.

Weak chin.

Stunned that his “bros” did not step in and pummel that arrogant Somoan c..nt’s head in when he was obviously losing the fight (Winston similarities here to be noted).

I mean what about those two tough Maori guys that took on John Key? They looked pretty tough…didn’t they!!?

The Maoris got KO’d.

About time!

Go Samoa!!
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October 5, 2009 5:38am
virtualmark

Luc, yes I read the Juan Cole post … both (i) in your post here and (ii) on his own website. But I just don’t subscribe to his implication that Iran is a benign peace-loving country.

But, to be fair, neither though do I subscribe to the neo-con view that Iran is a bloodthirsty savage looking to wipe Israel off the map. I don’t think Iran is a direct threat to the West. But I do note that it can indirectly threaten the world via its ability to choke off oil supplies and its control over proxies like Hezbollah.

What Iran has publicly declared to date is – so far – legal under the NPT. But what they have not directly declared, or declared only when it became clear the game was up, strongly suggests they have ambitions that go strongly beyond peaceful nuclear development as per the NPT.

Given that I can’t be as sanguine as Juan Cole that the Iranians are just misunderstood. They are purposefully concealing events & developments that could threaten regional and global security. All prudent nations need to view those sort of actions through a “worst case” lens … national policy and security cannot be based on the idea that everyone is nice and just wants to sit in a circle, hold hands and sing kumbaya.
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October 5, 2009 9:59am
virtualmark

Luc … “everyone has the right to a religious belief, if they so wish. That is also an imperative. I just don’t think it should be brainwashed into our kids.”

I agree that everyone has the right to a religious belief. And I agree that it’s a decision that ultimately each individual should/will make as an adult.

But that’s not to say that there aren’t important concepts that shouldn’t be taught as part of a child’s education. Whether you want to call it philosophy or religion it’s clear that inherent in the human condition is a search for meaning. Religious schools (of any religious ilk) will inevitably choose to present that in religious terms. Secular schools may want to present it in secular terms. Probably fair to say that each has their biases and each does a poor job of presenting the counter-view.

But it’s an important part of an education that we should be prepared to present to our children. Personally I think a bit more “classical” education covering philosophy and critical thinking would be a valuable addition to our education system.
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October 5, 2009 10:09am
Luc Hansen

hurf, you labour under at least one gigantic misapprehension. Palestinians remain refugees because they refuse to be permanently dispossessed, which is what resettlement would lead to. As the indigenous people of the land, they simply demand their right to self-determination which was deliberately denied to them by the West. You probably don’t know this, but they lobbied to have the US as the Mandate holder after WWI. They were denied this. They overwhelmingly did not desire their country to be partitioned and, quite rightly, did not accept it. They asked for Jewish immigration to be limited, just as we limit our immigrants. Overruled.

You may wish for them to go away, to disappear, but they refuse to and history (and law and morality) is on their side.

And Palestinians are very definitely second class citizens in Israel, subjected to many racist laws. An Israeli lady told me how 95% of Israelis never come into contact with an Arab and are terrified at the thought of it. When this lady joined Pro-Palestinian groups, she lost her job, her friends and sometimes her liberty. It’s not like the Israelis and KBRM tell you.

Palestinian children are radicalised by their experiences, not their education. And the conflict is over land, not religion. But yes, my restriction on religious teaching to children would apply to all.

Your world view is deeply racist and amoral and ignores the lessons of history.

Your comment on Mubarak simply reinforced my point.

You wallow in arrogance, racism, Islamophobia and ignorance. Hope you can swim.

VM Why do you misrepresent Cole? He is very realistic about Iran’s regional ambitions. You and others on here are just so desperate for an enemy that you invent demons with which to terrify people. Bloodlust is never pretty. Over 1,000,000 Iraqis have died as a result of Dubya’s war. Do you want to see the same in Iran?

Finally, in my view, philosophy and critical thinking (noticeable by its absence here!) is only to be encouraged.
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October 5, 2009 7:15pm
Hurf Durf

Palestinians remain refugees because they refuse to be permanently dispossessed, which is what resettlement would lead to.

Well, they can rot, then, if they want to hang on to this pipe dream of “Palestine.”

history…is on their side.

Oh wonderful, another historical determinist.

An Israeli lady told me how 95% of blah blah blah

An Irishman came up to me once and told me that in Ireland, they live in caves and molest cows. This mirrors exactly my own prejudices of Ireland therefore I have no reason to question it.

When this lady joined Pro-Palestinian groups, she lost her job, her friends and sometimes her liberty.

I’m tempted to go into Godwins, but I won’t.

Your comment on Mubarak simply reinforced my point.

What? You think the Muslim Brotherhood are better than Mubarak? Using that logic, you probably think the Communist Party opposition in Russia is better than Medvedev – though they are both twats. For the most part, morality has no place in foreign policy.

You wallow in arrogance, racism, Islamophobia and ignorance and you eat babies and you shoot lasers out of your eyes and you have no compassion and you incite genocide and blah blah blah

That’s nice, dear.
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October 5, 2009 7:35pm

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