General Debate 3 October 2009

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beerguts

Man did Chicago get the mammoth slap in the face re: the Olympics – knocked out in the first round! Doesn’t look like Obama being there made stuff all difference. Judging by the crime statistics in Rio de Janeiro they will need a highly fortified athletes village though!
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October 3, 2009 8:15am
Pete George

Is there some sort of fight on today? Appropriately named fight of the century, the lead up has taken about a century. How stupid is it to do something where the primary aim is to inflict brain damage?

The boxing equation: stupid + stupid = stupider x 2
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October 3, 2009 8:19am
Patrick Starr

Its not often I would ever agree with Mallard, (or admit it) but FFS this takes the cake!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10601065

The only other questions I would add is for how long has Te Puni Kokiri had a lazy $3mil hanging around in their budget Trevor? Is it the same over the past 9 years by any chance?
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October 3, 2009 8:29am
TripeWryter

I see that stuff.co.nz has concocted a new word — Editorail. It’s on the page of The Dominion Post’s editorial.

Perhaps it combines editorial and railing.

Quite a good editorial — about Polanski’s arrest, and the luminaries who have leapt to his defence.
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October 3, 2009 8:42am
Luc Hansen

On Kim Hill presently is this fellow: http://stallman.org/

He’s interesting to listen to. Kim takes him to task on some issues but her defends well. You can go to RNZ and listen to the podcast.
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October 3, 2009 9:28am
Simon

“She is robustly unapologetic when discussing the origin of the global financial meltdown. The fault, she says, ultimately lies with misguided efforts in the US, both by the government and the Federal Reserve, to re-start artificially the economy after September 11 by pumping ever-cheaper money into the financial system”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d9956408-1b06-11de-8aa3-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

Angela Merkel gets it Germany to recover first.

And in the US state governments are laying off record numbers of state employees and Zero funnels huge money to the elite. The sheep sure love Zero.
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October 3, 2009 10:16am
Johnboy

(—-no sign of phool yet (whoar)—).

—Must’ve taken that trainee—-uh– managers job at McDonalds–“”””

”'((((Huh))))____ not so over qualified after all–eh –“””

“(or is there some other reason he won’t show his face here??—)”

—-(Johnboy.sheep.waltons)
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October 3, 2009 10:21am
Elijah Lineberry

Perhaps he is apologising to Cactus and Olivia…ha ha!

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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October 3, 2009 11:33am
Johnboy

Quite so old chappie.
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October 3, 2009 11:43am
backster

BEERGUTS:……Chicago has the highest murder and crime rate in the States.
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October 3, 2009 2:14pm
Hurf Durf

RE Chicago’s 2016 Olympics bid:

Look on the bright side, at least we now have a point of difference between Obama and Hitler.
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October 3, 2009 2:37pm
Kris K

Luc Hansen 9:28 am,

On Kim Hill presently is this fellow: http://stallman.org/

He’s interesting to listen to. Kim takes him to task on some issues but her defends well. You can go to RNZ and listen to the podcast.

Just listened to the Richard Stallman interview with Kim Hill (via the RadioNZ website) speaking on Digital Freedoms.
Very interesting and encourage others to check it out.
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October 3, 2009 4:19pm
Steve

Phool is still raving in yesterday’s General Debate.
Yoo hoo, Phool, over here, today is the 3rd, time to catch up, you are not earning your benefit money wading in the past.
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October 3, 2009 4:27pm
village idiot

I know a young man who doesn’t have paid employment. Should I despise him? He is a busy guy though. He builds things, clever labour-saving devices that operate on wind and water power. He’s created a game that could rival Monopoly in popularity, should he market it. He grows all of his and his families food. He just doesn’t buy in to the employment model. He’s a very valuable member of society, in my opinion, for a number of other reasons. But as an unemployed person, does he deserve to be demeaned out of hand? Just asking.
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October 3, 2009 4:49pm
Hurf Durf

The Brazilians are mocking Obama on twitter with a “Yes We Créu” hashtag basically meaning “yes, we nailed it.”

It really is great just how Chicago’s bid collapsed and how fast the media backtracked on all the crap it spouted yesterday. Before – “Obama’s nuance and diplomatic clout makes Chicago’s nomination the favourite for bookies and pundits around the world.” After – “Chicago sucked anyway.”
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October 3, 2009 4:51pm
reid

“But as an unemployed person, does he deserve to be demeaned out of hand?”

I’ve never seen anyone here demean an unemployed person because they’re not employed. I have seen plenty of people here demean people who don’t contribute to society because they can’t be arsed.

I’m assuming you know the difference and you’re not just obfuscating. So the obvious question is, does your acquaintance draw on the dole or other benefit and if so, is he looking to withdraw himself off of it at the earliest opportunity?
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October 3, 2009 4:58pm
LUCY

village idiot (451) 1 1 Says:

October 3rd, 2009 at 4:49 pm
I” know a young man who doesn’t have paid employment. Should I despise him? He is a busy guy though”.

But is he on the dole villiage idiot? If not then no why would we despise him? If he is totally self sufficient and pays for all his own choices including medical care, schooling for his children etc then good on him he is living his life the way he wants to without asking tax payers to support his choice.

But if he is on the dole and /or accepting tax payers subsidised servisesand physically able to work then I do despise him. Why the hell should other people support his life style when he wont.
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October 3, 2009 5:19pm
Steve

Greenfly,
The Phool got his arse kicked, so stop being a suckhole to him
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October 3, 2009 5:22pm
LUCY

and also I assume that the ‘guy you know’ villiage idiot is also paying for medical care, schooling for his children etc he wouldnt possibly expect the taxpayer to pay for his choice in the way he lives would he?
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October 3, 2009 5:26pm
Patrick Starr

“I know a young man who doesn’t ……..” well phools no spring chicken so obviously not him

“He’s a very valuable member of society’ – nuff said, definitely not phool …..but society of what?
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October 3, 2009 5:34pm
village idiot

Reid – he does not, has never and has no intention of drawing a benefit.
He is fit, strong , active and works long days. He contributes a good deal to the local community in a number of ways.

Lucy – he has no childeren yet. He has not needed to call on any medical services yet – he eats very well (mostly organic vegetables) is physically active, doesn’t take drugs, sleeps well. He doesn’t expect the taxpayer to pay for his choice and balances the ‘cost’ of the things he ‘potentially’ uses (fire services etc) by the contributions he makes to the community (he grows fruit trees for example, for donating to families who can’t afford to buy them, along with a range of useful things). His greatest contribution, imho, is the modelling he provides for his peers.
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October 3, 2009 5:37pm
village idiot

Patrick Starr – society of what? What?

I’ve a question Patrick, knowing that you have thought this issue through and are a sharp fellow;

How much of your earnings go to Phil (just Phil) each year? I’m guessing that it must be a sizeable sum, based upon the degree of anger you express over the loss of your earnings in Phil’s direction.

(I’m looking for a dollar figure here)
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October 3, 2009 5:41pm
reid

“He’s a very valuable member of society, in my opinion…”

In my opinion, I’d be a very valuable member of society if I withdrew myself from the employment front and devoted myself full time toward exposing the vapid foolishness of your average lefty’s political perspective.

Unfortunately I won’t allow myself to do that because I’d rather pay my share as I go through life. Actually being single with no kids and no hospital and no school consumption and way above average income, I’ve been paying a shitload more than my “fair” share for decades now. I know the state won’t fund my pension because I’m right at the tail end of the baby boomers and in twenty years I know that Generations X and Y won’t be interested in seeing people like me right.

Do I resent that? No, I’m very happy indeed that my excess tax contribution vs withdrawal over my lifetime will go to help others less fortunate than I. This is because I believe, as Churchill put it so very well:

“We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give.”

Sometimes, I wish that others less educated than I would understand that fundamental principal as well, as it really does make a difference to your perspective on life. But I don’t resent the fact they don’t. What really surprises me however, is when some people, poor deluded souls, imagine that life owes them a living or even worse, that life is meant to be fair (in their own perception of what’s “fair” to them, of course).

I’m constantly surprised to note that people with such a deluded and selfish perspective, almost always inhabit the left end of the political spectrum. I’m not saying that all lefties are fucked in the head, but I have noticed that most people that are fucked in the head, are lefties.
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October 3, 2009 5:47pm
reid

“Reid – he does not, has never and has no intention of drawing a benefit.
He is fit, strong , active and works long days. He contributes a good deal to the local community in a number of ways.”

That’s great news, I imagine that he’ll vote conservative when he gets a bit older.
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October 3, 2009 5:51pm
village idiot

reid – he’s already old enough to vote and he gives his to the Greens. That’s odd, isn’t it!
He is, as Churchill put so well, making a life. It seems to me that you and he are alike. I’m curious to know though, how you measure your contribution. Do you measure only in cash? You say you won’t allow yourself to withdraw ‘from the employment front and devote’ your time to ‘exposing the vapid foolishness’ of those who follow an ideology you oppose. Curiously, that’s just what Phil has done! He did ‘allow’ himself’. Curious! You want to, but you ‘won’t’. ‘Unfortunately’, you say.
Unfortunately! Interesting word. Fortune, un-fortune.
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October 3, 2009 6:36pm
village idiot

Patrick? How much (exactly)?
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October 3, 2009 6:40pm
kaya

Simon – This Chinese economist has a good handle on the current financial situation.

http://english.caijing.com.cn/2009-09-28/110267252.html
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October 3, 2009 6:50pm
Patrick Starr

so greefly – you were talking about phool?
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October 3, 2009 7:03pm
village idiot

Patrick – no, I wasn’t, but I’m very interested to know whether you have quantified your contribution to Phil. I’m thinking that if it is so minor as to be inconsequential, then you are just blowing. How much, do you think, of your money, goes to Phil?
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October 3, 2009 7:06pm
reid

“he’s already old enough to vote and he gives his to the Greens. That’s odd, isn’t it!”

No not at all, as if you’re not a liberal when you’re 25, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative by the time you’re 35, you have no brain.

I hope he’s not over 35.

“Do you measure [your contribution] only in cash?”

No, VI – cash means nothing except a means to an end. It’s a shame that I can’t prioritise myself how my own earnings are spent but that’s part of Rousseau’s (or Hobbes’?) social contract, isn’t it. Service to the community is what Churchill was referring to, that’s what makes the life. Some years I have done better than others, in that respect. By the time I die however, I intend to have made a full life, in my own small and insignificant way. (Notwithstanding the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.)
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October 3, 2009 7:14pm
Nomestradamus

Greenfly/Village Idiot:

There’s a false premise in your question. New Zealand taxpayers support not only Philu but many others like him who, it seems, choose not to work – not because they can’t find a job, as life sometimes throws up curve-balls, but simply because they’re apparently perfectly capable of holding down a job but choose not to bother looking for one. Patrick Starr is probably referring to all of the Philus in this world – at least those supported by New Zealand taxpayers.

In Philu’s case, I think it’s fair to say he makes himself a target by blogging all day (using a mental writing style, and being deliberately provocative towards other commenters) and trying to justify his stay-at-home lifestyle on dubious grounds. If you’ve been reading Kiwiblog for a while, you would have seen these issues thrashed out over quite a few threads!
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October 3, 2009 7:18pm
village idiot

Reid – do it now!

Nomestradamus – yes, but I’m not questioniong taxpayers I’m asking Patrick, who often decries Phil for taking his money. I only want to know – how much? Is that a difficult question?
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October 3, 2009 7:29pm
DJP6-25

Hurf Durf (629) I wish I’d thought of that!

cheers

David Prosser
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October 3, 2009 7:42pm
Brian Smaller

He just doesn’t buy in to the employment model. He’s a very valuable member of society, in my opinion, for a number of other reasons. But as an unemployed person, does he deserve to be demeaned out of hand? Just asking.

If he gets welfare but ‘doesn’t buy into the employment model’, then I will happily demean him. If he does all those things you said and doesn’t get welfare then he is a good bloke.
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October 3, 2009 7:43pm
Luc Hansen

Phil has probably scored a hot young thing who has been keeping him busy in bed all day!

Why you guys respond to his pisstaking is beyond me, and running whole threads like this one is just schoolyard bully boy stuff.

Bend over boys. Six of the best coming your way.

And remember, you are allowed to enjoy it but do not show it!
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October 3, 2009 7:43pm
pentwig

Greenfly

Like it or not it is every persons duty and obligation in life to pay tax.

Like it or not society could not exist without it.

Your friend earns an income with which he barters. Ergo he pays no tax.

If he fell ill, he would expect the society who pay tax, to help him recover even though he has not contributed.

In old age and if he became infirm and could not support himself ,(even though paying no tax), he would expect us decent people who understand our obligations to support him.

If he has children later on in life he would expect us decent taxpayers to educate them.

So in reply to your first question at 4:49 pm “should I despise him” Answer : Yes

In reply to your second question “does he deserve to be demeaned out of hand” Answer : Yes
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October 3, 2009 8:22pm
Viking2

Student debt burden set to soar
The Union of Students’ Associations has released figures that show student debt could soar to $20 billion if changes aren’t made

3 October 2009
The government expects student debt to blow out to a massive $20 billion by 2022.

The information has been released to The New Zealand Union of Students’ Associations under the Official Information Act.

Co-president Jordan King says student debt already sits at $10 billion. He says it will grow to crisis point if the current Student Loan Scheme and wider fee structure remains.

He says previous Governments, both National and Labour, have neglected to fix the system allowing debt to balloon out of control since the introduction of the Student loan Scheme in the early 1990s.

This debt only represents the debt that students will owe government. Research by an NZUSA Income and Expenditure Survey shows students also take on high levels of private debt to fund their studies, which Mr King says makes this figure all the more horrifying.

Mr King says an urgent effort is needed so society does not suffer the effects of a debt burden for decades to come.
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October 3, 2009 8:33pm
Patrick Starr

greenfly – let me ask you how whether ever quantified your financial contribution to Bill English’s accommodation allowance -. I’m thinking that if it is so minor as to be inconsequential, then you are just blowing. How much, do you think, of your money went to Bill English?
Really – both you and phool have said he’s troughing the system and taxpayers
(and Bill actually does something useful for his)

let us all remind you of this little principle next time you point fingers
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October 3, 2009 9:17pm
Luc Hansen

Who writes these twitter updates. Is that DPF?

Forgive my ignorance, Twitter is very puzzling for me!
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October 3, 2009 9:33pm
reid

“I only want to know – how much? Is that a difficult question?”

VI, FWIW, I calculate the phils of this world have taken eleventy gajillion out of me over the years. I expect that figure to triple before I die.

I expect phil or his son to pay for my funeral personally, in recognition of my largesse.

Now please don’t try to tell me that’s too much to ask.
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October 3, 2009 9:34pm
Patrick Starr

reid – re; funeral.

careful what you wish for – Dont forget “He builds things, clever labour-saving devices that operate on wind and water power” Your funeral may just consist of a big mincer at the end of windmill, leading to a composting toilet -if left to him

(but there again your funeral may be like phools lawns …………… if left to him)
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October 3, 2009 10:18pm
big bruv

Patrick

Is this unemployed mate of Greenfly’s on the dole?
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October 3, 2009 10:22pm
Patrick Starr

bruv – according to greenfly apparently not,

(but greenfly also says the worlds ending soon)
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October 3, 2009 10:31pm
big bruv

Then I don’t give a shit what the bloke does, as long as he is not stealing from me every week he can do what he likes.
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October 3, 2009 10:40pm
getstaffed

The Union of Students’ Associations has released figures that show student debt could soar to $20 billion if changes aren’t made

Generalising I know… but perhaps students could spend less of their loans on alcohol, and replace that drinking time with some more part-time work? A few students I know do this. They work hard at uni, hold down several jobs and still manage to have a social life. We all have the same number of hours in the day. How come some are to use them vastly more effectively than others?
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October 3, 2009 10:48pm
big bruv

Somebody may well correct me here, but are these students basically asking me to pay for their education (even more than I am at the moment) so they can have low or no student loans?

As far as I can see the figure is still going to be 20 billion, its just that these parasites want me to pay instead of them having to borrow the money.
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October 3, 2009 10:50pm
village idiot

Sorry for the delay in replying – I’ve just been at the movies with my wife.

Brian – yes, he’s a good bloke.

Patrick – your answer (or rather, non-answer) to my question is just evasion. I’m dissapointed because I’d expected that you would have confidence to follow up on your slights of Phil. Like to harden up and have a real try?
If you can front up, I’d challenge you over the state of Phil’s lawn as well, but perhaps you’d fold on that too.

Pentwig – you appear to have no comprehension of the situation I described.

Reid – I was hoping for an honest estimate.

Big Bruv – no, he’s not, nor ever has been, on the dole. I appreciate your comment and commend you on your integrity.
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October 3, 2009 11:00pm
village idiot

Pentwig – further to your comment;

Like it or not it is every persons duty and obligation in life to pay tax.

Like it or not society could not exist without it.

You’re a stickler for rules and conformity, aren’t you!

What would you with such a person as my friend? Ban him from society?
Punish him for thinking his own thoughts, designing his own world, creating his own destiny?
Do you feel a need to ‘beat him into shape’? Make him like everyone else? Sounds very…Communist, Pentwig.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
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October 3, 2009 11:14pm
reid

“I was hoping for an honest estimate”

You did direct it to Patrick and I did leap in facetiously, but if you want my honest estimate, then $60k p.a. is a low estimate.

This is in respect of the fact he gets the DPB and is assuming he doesn’t get any additional allowance (state housing or a supplementary).

$60k is low since how much does it cost to educate a child in the state system? We have prison costs rammed down our throats: as-in, we shouldn’t impose long sentences because it costs $x to house, etc. How often do we get education costs rammed down our throats?

$60k p.a. is a low estimate.

Re: your friend. Does he pay taxes like everyone else? He does? Great.
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October 3, 2009 11:16pm
Nomestradamus

Greenfly/Village Idiot:

If you can front up, I’d challenge you over the state of Phil’s lawn as well, but perhaps you’d fold on that too.

You clearly missed this one:

philu (6005) Says:
August 5th, 2009 at 10:52 am

btw..i am an active member of the ’stop mowing your lawns..!..for fuck sake..!” movement..
and haven’t mowed mine for over a year..
(you wait untill it is long enough..then you just walk it down/flatten it..
..the walked-down/broken stuff then breaks down..
..and a self-composting lawn develops..
..and a micro-environment..full of bug/insects/w.h.y..has developed..
..and the birds love it..!

Still want to have that bet with Patrick about the state of Philu’s lawn? 🙂
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October 3, 2009 11:29pm
XChequer

Wow! Tua sure cleaned up Cameron
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October 3, 2009 11:32pm
village idiot

Reid – yes, I did challenge Patrick (no satisfaction yet) as to how much he, personally, was ‘losing’ to Phil each year. He’s happy to berate Phil for taking his money. So far, no genuine response has been forthcoming. Sadly.
Taxes? Seems you too like to keep everyone in line – no free thinking, non-conformist individuals in your society either. Hmmm. You conservatives are so…homogenous.

Nomestradamus – no, didn’t miss it, just didn’t comment at the time. I think Phil is leading the charge with this one. The rest of you are compliant drones (I’m guessing, not having seen your lawns). I support Phil’s lawn management strategy and am critical of yours.

Regretfully, I’m to bed now.
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October 3, 2009 11:40pm
reid

“But the sticky situation Tua is in with a low-budget Maori TV deal covering his next three fights in New Zealand, means his future here might be limited.”

MTV has tied Tua to a $35k total contract for his next three fights in NZ. They signed it when he was desperate for money and they’re holding him to it.

Does that suck or what?
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October 3, 2009 11:51pm
Luc Hansen

tweet back to DPF tweet tweet I refuse to capitalise the “t” : just doesn’t seem right.

DPF tweets # @HKHam Juan Cole http://juancole.com says (with no proof) that the call to wipe Israel off the map means he just hopes it collapses. I think that is naive. about 2 hours ago

And I think DPF is misinformed. Juan Cole is one of the world’s premier experts on the Middle East. He lives and breathes it and is a loyal US citizen.

For your benefit, dear readers, I have posted here in full the relevant Juan Cole post. I urge you to consider it. Go on, you won’t go blind.

In particular, look for this: “The Iranian president has explicitly said that Iran is not a threat to any country, including Israel.”

This is the full post:

Thursday is a fateful day for the world, as the US, other members of the United Nations Security Council, and Germany meet in Geneva with Iran in a bid to resolve outstanding issues. Although Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had earlier attempted to put the nuclear issue off the bargaining table, this rhetorical flourish was a mere opening gambit and nuclear issues will certainly dominate the talks. As Henry Kissinger pointed out, these talks are just beginning and there are highly unlikely to be any breakthroughs for a very long time. Diplomacy is a marathon, not a sprint.

But on this occasion, I thought I’d take the opportunity to list some things that people tend to think they know about Iran, but for which the evidence is shaky.

Belief: Iran is aggressive and has threatened to attack Israel, its neighbors or the US

Reality: Iran has not launched an aggressive war modern history (unlike the US or Israel), and its leaders have a doctrine of “no first strike.” This is true of Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, as well as of Revolutionary Guards commanders.

Belief: Iran is a militarized society bristling with dangerous weapons and a growing threat to world peace.

Reality: Iran’s military budget is a little over $6 billion annually. Sweden, Singapore and Greece all have larger military budgets. Moreover, Iran is a country of 70 million, so that its per capita spending on defense is tiny compared to these others, since they are much smaller countries with regard to population. Iran spends less per capita on its military than any other country in the Persian Gulf region with the exception of the United Arab Emirates.

Belief: Iran has threatened to attack Israel militarily and to “wipe it off the map.”

Reality: No Iranian leader in the executive has threatened an aggressive act of war on Israel, since this would contradict the doctrine of ‘no first strike’ to which the country has adhered. The Iranian president has explicitly said that Iran is not a threat to any country, including Israel.

Belief: But didn’t President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad threaten to ‘wipe Israel off the map?’

Reality: President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad did quote Ayatollah Khomeini to the effect that “this Occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time” (in rezhim-e eshghalgar-i Qods bayad as safheh-e ruzgar mahv shavad). This was not a pledge to roll tanks and invade or to launch missiles, however. It is the expression of a hope that the regime will collapse, just as the Soviet Union did. It is not a threat to kill anyone at all.

Belief: But aren’t Iranians Holocaust deniers?

Actuality: Some are, some aren’t. Former president Mohammad Khatami has castigated Ahmadinejad for questioning the full extent of the Holocaust, which he called “the crime of Nazism.” Many educated Iranians in the regime are perfectly aware of the horrors of the Holocaust. In any case, despite what propagandists imply, neither Holocaust denial (as wicked as that is) nor calling Israel names is the same thing as pledging to attack it militarily.

Belief: Iran is like North Korea in having an active nuclear weapons program, and is the same sort of threat to the world.

Actuality: Iran has a nuclear enrichment site at Natanz near Isfahan where it says it is trying to produce fuel for future civilian nuclear reactors to generate electricity. All Iranian leaders deny that this site is for weapons production, and the International Atomic Energy Agency has repeatedly inspected it and found no weapons program. Iran is not being completely transparent, generating some doubts, but all the evidence the IAEA and the CIA can gather points to there not being a weapons program. The 2007 National Intelligence Estimate by 16 US intelligence agencies, including the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency, assessed with fair confidence that Iran has no nuclear weapons research program. This assessment was based on debriefings of defecting nuclear scientists, as well as on the documents they brought out, in addition to US signals intelligence from Iran. While Germany, Israel and recently the UK intelligence is more suspicious of Iranian intentions, all of them were badly wrong about Iraq’s alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction and Germany in particular was taken in by Curveball, a drunk Iraqi braggart.

Belief: The West recently discovered a secret Iranian nuclear weapons plant in a mountain near Qom.

Actuality: Iran announced Monday a week ago to the International Atomic Energy Agency that it had begun work on a second, civilian nuclear enrichment facility near Qom. There are no nuclear materials at the site and it has not gone hot, so technically Iran is not in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, though it did break its word to the IAEA that it would immediately inform the UN of any work on a new facility. Iran has pledged to allow the site to be inspected regularly by the IAEA, and if it honors the pledge, as it largely has at the Natanz plant, then Iran cannot produce nuclear weapons at the site, since that would be detected by the inspectors. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton admitted on Sunday that Iran could not produce nuclear weapons at Natanz precisely because it is being inspected. Yet American hawks have repeatedly demanded a strike on Natanz.

Belief: The world should sanction Iran not only because of its nuclear enrichment research program but also because the current regime stole June’s presidential election and brutally repressed the subsequent demonstrations.

Actuality: Iran’s reform movement is dead set against increased sanctions on Iran, which likely would not affect the regime, and would harm ordinary Iranians.

Belief: Isn’t the Iranian regime irrational and crazed, so that a doctrine of mutally assured destruction just would not work with them?

Actuality: Iranian politicians are rational actors. If they were madmen, why haven’t they invaded any of their neighbors? Saddam Hussein of Iraq invaded both Iran and Kuwait. Israel invaded its neighbors more than once. In contrast, Iran has not started any wars. Demonizing people by calling them unbalanced is an old propaganda trick. The US elite was once unalterably opposed to China having nuclear science because they believed the Chinese are intrinsically irrational. This kind of talk is a form of racism.

Belief: The international community would not have put sanctions on Iran, and would not be so worried, if it were not a gathering nuclear threat.

Actuality: The centrifuge technology that Iran is using to enrich uranium is open-ended. In the old days, you could tell which countries might want a nuclear bomb by whether they were building light water reactors (unsuitable for bomb-making) or heavy-water reactors (could be used to make a bomb). But with centrifuges, once you can enrich to 5% to fuel a civilian reactor, you could theoretically feed the material back through many times and enrich to 90% for a bomb. However, as long as centrifuge plants are being actively inspected, they cannot be used to make a bomb. The two danger signals would be if Iran threw out the inspectors or if it found a way to create a secret facility. The latter task would be extremely difficult, however, as demonstrated by the CIA’s discovery of the Qom facility construction in 2006 from satellite photos. Nuclear installations, especially centrifuge ones, consume a great deal of water, construction materiel, and so forth, so that constructing one in secret is a tall order. In any case, you can’t attack and destroy a country because you have an intuition that they might be doing something illegal. You need some kind of proof. Moreover, Israel, Pakistan and India are all much worse citizens of the globe than Iran, since they refused to sign the NPT and then went for broke to get a bomb; and nothing at all has been done to any of them by the UNSC.

End of post.

Of course, I understand that for the racist Arab and Persian haters here, rationality is irrelevant.

PS FFS you guys, why get so wound up about Phil? He must be watching this with a great deal of pleasure. Why don’t you do what http://www.kbrm.org.nz do with my blog http://kbrmrebutted.blogspot.com and just not respond?

Hmmm, anyone spot the flaw in my argument?
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October 3, 2009 11:54pm
reid

“Seems you too like to keep everyone in line – no free thinking, non-conformist individuals in your society either. Hmmm. You conservatives are so…homogenous.”

BTW, we’re all human, VI.

Clearly, our values and ethics don’t match, but I rather suspect that underneath the skin of the average conservative you’d find a warmer heart, a greater sense of adventure, more independence, more intelligence and a more accepting sense and acknowledgement of the value of unleashing the human spirit than you’d ever find in the average lefty.

This is perhaps the essence of the difference: Lefties think they know, conservatives know they don’t, but they make the effort to understand.

I’m very happy with where I stand.
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October 4, 2009 12:01am
reid

Luc, an excellent post, which addresses many issues re: Iran.

I confidently expect intense factual dissection of Juan’s many relevant points which I won’t bother to repeat.

I fear however that tomorrow the response may consist mostly of such comments as: “You’re the worst person in the world you anti-semitic Israel-hater you” thus completely disproving my 12:01.

Nevertheless, an excellent post.
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October 4, 2009 12:39am
Patrick Starr

“I support Phil’s lawn management strategy and am critical of yours.”

…….and Greenfly wonders why we question statements like; “He’s a very valuable member of society”
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October 4, 2009 7:36am
Johnboy

And the winner of the Troll of the year award is——Greenfly/Village Idiot with 100%.

The true nature of his genius is revealed by the way he rarked up everybody about phil without the star of the show even having to be present.

For that skill G/VI also wins the ventrilloquist of the century award.
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October 4, 2009 8:27am
village idiot

Johnboy – you’re too kind. I’m lost for words and a little emotional about the award, but I’d just like to thank everyone who helped me get to where I am now, I couldn’t have done it without you guys, and of course Sweet Jesus and the Lord My God.

Patrick – you haven’t answered my simple question. Can you not do it? How much money do you personally lose to Phil Ure each week? A good gestimate will do. Don’t wimp out.
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October 4, 2009 9:01am
Johnboy

Not at all VI —suggest you thank your Mum& Dad for having you just like they do at the Oscars.

The comment that clinched it for the supreme award was this:–“Sorry for the delay in replying – I’ve just been at the movies with my wife.”

Pure magic. Did you really take the missus out or did you just sit back laughing as the seed you planted grew into a mighty kauri?
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October 4, 2009 9:31am
kaya

Metiria Turei just got her ass kicked on Q+A over the Green’s super trust. Seems they were rorting the taxpayer claiming $1000 per week rent on a place where the true valuaton should have been less than half that.
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October 4, 2009 9:35am
Johnboy

I am sure they will all announce that they are paying it back. 🙂
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October 4, 2009 9:38am
village idiot

Johnboy – we went to “500 Days of Summer” – romantic comedy – I chose it on the reccomendation of the Radio Live movie reviewer as one that a woman would love – she did and there’s no harm in that 🙂

Metiria did face a grilling from Espiner. The ‘mistake’ has been paid back, the party has expressed its regret and the mistake acknowledged. Now there’ll be some braying! Wonder what Bill will have to say?
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October 4, 2009 9:47am
Patrick Starr

greenfly – assuming 45% of CCR is through taxes (and 39% of that is PAYE), and 15.75% of CCE is welfare, I would estimate my personal contribution to the Phools of NZ at around $67 per week.

Now – how much have you personally contributed to Bill English’s housing allowance?
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October 4, 2009 9:55am
virtualmark

Luc, re your post quoting Juan Cole.

I agree with Juan on a number of things.

I believe that Ahmadinejad was using (very Persian) flowery language with his infamous quote about Israel being wiped off the map/ceasing to exist. And I believe he intended those statements primarily for a domestic audience.

I believe that Ahmadinejad is also clever enough to know the truth about the Holocaust. And again, that he is primarily tailoring his words to a domestic audience.

I also believe that sanctions will be ineffective and are likely to consolidate support for a regime that currently has fractured support.

But I also recognise that Juan Cole is a professor of history, not a professor of geopolitics, or from West Point, not even a professor of military history. And so I think many of his other comments are inaccurate.

“Iran has not launched an aggressive war [in] modern history” … umm no, not directly. But Juan needs to recognise that Iran prefers to initiate strikes via its proxies, in particular Hezbollah. Juan lived in Lebanon, he must know the relationship between Hezbollah & Iran.

“Irans military budget is smaller than Sweden, Singapore or Greece”. Possibly true, although totalitarian regimes (and the US too) tend to obfuscate their real military spend. The key point though is that the international community trusts Sweden, Singapore & Greece to act like adults. Living next to a well-run factory that makes missiles is a lot safer than living next door to a complete madman who has a bow & arrow.

It hasn’t been – and can’t readily be – proven that Iran has an organised programme to develop a bomb. But what can be proven is that they:
(i) have the plans for a nuclear weapon,
(ii) have been clandestinely buying key nuclear weapon technologies, like simultaneous detonators, that have no conventional uses,
(iii) have been actively developing ballistic missiles with a range-payload suited for nuclear weapons, and not suited to conventional warheads,
(iv) have been clandestinely constructing nuclear facilities that are not commensurate with a civilian nuclear programme but are required for a military nuclear programme.

You have to be wilfully obtuse to think that Iran is not pursuing a nuclear weapons programme.

Personally I think the Iranian’s though are doing it to for the standard reason all totalitarian regimes focus on … regime protection. The clerics & IRGC need to ensure the rest of the world is deterred from toppling them. Acting like a crazy man with nukes will help with that. The clerics & IRGC also want to be a regional power in the Middle East. Again, being a nuclear state will get you a long way to that. The clerics & IRGC also want to have a bargaining chip on issues that affect them, like the disposition of Iraq – do you really think any of us would give a toss about short fat North Koreans in platform heels and hot-headed mullahs in robes if they weren’t developing nukes???

Personally I think the best approach with the Iranians is the one the world has adopted with nuclear weapons since the 1950s. Mutual destruction. You hit us with a nuke and we’ll hit you even harder. I agree with Juan Cole that Khamanei & Ahmadinejad are rational actors. I don’t believe they’re going to attack Israel with nukes, because they must surely know that if they did that Israel would vapourise at least all of the top 10 cities in Iran.

Also warn them about proliferating their nuclear technology to other countries, and make it clear that if they are found to do so there will be crippling consequences.

(And also … covertly … send in people, your own people & proxies, to kill the key Iranian scientists on their nuclear programme. The critical resource of any nuclear programme is the people, not the technology. Hey, that’s not very “nice” but we’re playing big boys games here).

Iran is thriving on all the attention this nuclear programme is getting. It gets them big leverage on issues close to their heart like what’s going on in Iraq. Cut off the oxygen. Say “Sure, knock yourself out, build a nuke. But remember that if you mis-use it there’ll be no second chances. You and the rest of Iran will be vapourised.” Khamanei & Ahmadinejad are rational actors. They will understand these realities.
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October 4, 2009 9:59am
reid

“I also believe that sanctions will be ineffective…”

So do I.
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October 4, 2009 10:22am
village idiot

Patrick – that doesn’t answer my question. I’m not, as you know, asking about ‘the Phools’, I’m asking about Phil. Don’t be devious. Be brave. Answer the question.
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October 4, 2009 10:25am
Chthoniid

Stop being so asinine VI.

It’s a stupid question because it cannot be answered. Tax dollars are pooled into a consolidated account.

Ask a proper question and stop trolling.
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October 4, 2009 10:31am
Patrick Starr

remind me again why I’d bother doing this for you?
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October 4, 2009 10:39am
village idiot

Neither asinine nor trolling Chthoniid. patrick often begrudges the money he is forced to pay to Phil and uses that as a wesapon to ‘bludgeon the bludger’. I just want to know, ‘how much’?
Patrick – there is no obligation to answer, however, I note that you are obfuscating in the style of Bill English. Man up.
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October 4, 2009 10:51am
village idiot

or obfusticating
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October 4, 2009 11:04am
Patrick Starr

“I just want to know, ‘how much’?”

good for you
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October 4, 2009 11:07am
Patrick Starr

and the greens were screaming about peoples privacy when it comes to disclosing personal financial matters? – yeah right, more hypocrisy
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October 4, 2009 11:12am
village idiot

Patrick – gutless! Who’d have thought!
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October 4, 2009 11:20am
Patrick Starr

whats gutless about telling you to piss off
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October 4, 2009 11:21am
LUCY

reid (3170) Vote: 2 1 Says:

October 3rd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
“he’s already old enough to vote and he gives his to the Greens. That’s odd, isn’t it!”

“No not at all, as if you’re not a liberal when you’re 25, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative by the time you’re 35, you have no brain”.

So very very true. You MUST know me.
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October 4, 2009 11:22am
village idiot

Nothing brave about telling a commenter on a blog to piss off. Show some spine and answer my simple question. I’m more than happy to answer yours, just as soon as we’ve cleared the air with the one you fear.
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October 4, 2009 11:32am
Chthoniid

I would reflect on the meaning of the word asinine VI.

You are demanding that Patrick comply with your literal interpretation of his rhetorical device. He doesn’t have to, as most people of a non-asinine character can distinguish the two.

If Patrick is a good Bayesian statistician, he could simply point out that once his tax enters the pool, it becomes impossible to track. Hence somewhere between zero and all of his tax dollars will end up in Phool’s specific account. With no additional information, it is equally likely that {0, $1, $2…$all} of it end up in Phool’s account. Hence, as a prior probability, he could validly hypothesize that say, all of his tax dollars went to Phool until such a time, this prior probability can be revised. It is not any less likely than any other amount we could propose.

Or he could just as equally validly tell you to get bent.
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October 4, 2009 11:38am
Johnboy

The answer to your question VI is zero as it appears that phool has finally found the job of his dreams in the Ronald McDonald costume and is now off the dole so Patrick won’t need to subsidise him any more.
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October 4, 2009 11:46am
Patrick Starr

“Show some spine and answer my simple question”

get a big black dog up ya
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October 4, 2009 11:55am
big bruv

Greenfly

Are you seriously defending Phool’s lifestyle choice?
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October 4, 2009 11:58am
village idiot

Big Bruv – I’m asking Partick to clarify how much money he believes he is losing to Phil. He’s reverted to low-brow insults to cover his inability to follow through the debate.
I have a question for you Bruv. Do you support the notion that an individual has the right to choose his lifestyle and what he does with his time? There are many here who believe they should choose on someone elses behalf. If someone wants to blog all day, he is welcome to do that, in my opinion. I am amazed that some folk believe that he should do as they bid – that is ‘get a job’. Funny.
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October 4, 2009 12:26pm
village idiot

Chthoniid – and yet it would be a simple mathematical act to calculate how much a beneficiary might receive, divide that by the number of taxpayers in NZ and roughly calculate how much coin is dissapearing from ones own purse. Patrick wont do it, because he knows, as you and I know, that the amount is miniscule. He is well able to tell me to ‘get bent’, but that leaves a question and a ‘raspberry’ hanging in the air.
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October 4, 2009 12:31pm
Chthoniid

It’s not a simple mathematical calculation VI, because tax dollars are not divided up on a pro-rata basis.

Nobody sitting at IRD taking out a few cents of Patrick’s tax and putting some aside for Phool. It goes into a pool and comes out in a probabilistic fashion. Hence, the correct answer is that somewhere between none and all of Patrick’s tax dollars goes to Phool.

Now, this is all kind of irrelevant anyway because of the persistence with which you’re treating a rhetorical device as a literal statement. That’s what makes the whole reasoning here asinine.

Now if you will excuse me, it’s raining and I have some photos to process.
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October 4, 2009 12:38pm
Manolo

“Do you support the notion that an individual has the right to choose his lifestyle and what he does with his time?”
Yes.

But you forgot to mention, the same individual should be prepared to accept the consequences of the chosen lifestyle, and not to expect others to subsidy his idleness, as the bludger and parasite lurking around Kiwiblog does.

Individual freedom above all….and with that the responsibility of looking after yourself.
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October 4, 2009 12:40pm
village idiot

Chthoniid – perhaps a photo of an ass? It’s sunny here. I’m planting for hoverflies.

You say: Hence, the correct answer is that somewhere between none and all of Patrick’s tax dollars goes to Phool.

Clearly. And yet, you know what I mean and, like Patrick, enjoy the sensation of clouding the issue; he with his base insults and you with yer’ lernin’.

Manolo – so that’s a ‘no’ to choice? Odd that you are determined to add provisions.
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October 4, 2009 1:12pm
Patrick Starr

Greenfly –look at it this way . What has phool cost the taxpayers vs. what has he contributed to the community to perhaps offset this cost.

We know we’ve paid for his degree (of no benefit to anyone).
We know we’ve paid for police investigations of him
We suspect his criminal trials were funded by legal aid
We know his incarceration has been funded by the taxpayer
We know he’s been living off welfare benefits for the past few decades, all this along with all the other tax funded services and assets he no doubt makes full use of.

Now you try and tell me any benefit he provides to the community?
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October 4, 2009 1:14pm
village idiot

Winston – given that Phil is largely rehabilitated and not engaging in the kinds of criminal behaviour he was convicted of in the past and he is spending his time reading about political matters, operating a web/news site and engaging in political discussion with the likes of us, you could call it a benefit to society (I do). The alternative might be a recidivist offender who … continues to offend, lounges about listlessly all day and causes threat to his community in one way or another. Phil, it would seem, is not of that ilk. Are you determined that he should be tarred with the brush of his past and not congratulated for his new lifestyle? He doesn’t seem listless to me, nor ‘living in a drugged out world’ nor stupid. Communities do benefit from people who have risen above their early lives. Phil has and the ‘community’ does, imho. Plus, he’s raising a son (just the one, I gather). He’s a father. It sounds to me as though he is instilling in his son some very staunch beliefs. That you don’t agree with them and demean him for that seems spiteful. Phil is easily riled and you may be taking great pleasure in baiting him, but in my opinion, he is often on the button.
Chances are, you won’t agree with my assessment. If so, just hold up your ‘NO’ card.
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October 4, 2009 1:55pm
Manolo

“Are you determined that he should be tarred with the brush of his past and not congratulated for his new lifestyle?”

What “new” lifestyle? The bludger cum blogger has been milking the system for decades, living at someone else’s expenses for a long, long time. Reluctant to work, idle and lazy as he is, I cannot see any “newness” in it.

He’ll be a parasite, a leech on the taxpayer’s back until his very last day.
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October 4, 2009 3:46pm
Chthoniid

VI, if you think that what Phool does is of value, then put your money where you mouth is. Visit his site and pay him donations to keep him running it. If enough people agree with your assessment he should be off the DPB and onto a regular income in no time.
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October 4, 2009 4:08pm
getstaffed

The alternative might be a recidivist offender

.. or getting a job.

It sounds to me as though he is instilling in his son some very staunch beliefs.

Like “Don’t bother earning a living. Just live on welfare. It’s worked well for me hasn’t it?”
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October 4, 2009 4:12pm
Patrick Starr

“The alternative might be a recidivist offender”

instead of pointing a gun to get money he now just shows up with his hand out – he’s still just taking
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October 4, 2009 4:24pm
pentwig

Greenfly/V.Prize Idiot

“he is spending his time reading about political matters, operating a web/news site and engaging in political discussion with the likes of us,”

If you call his ranting and illiterate offerings on here political discussions then you are as misguided as he.

How can he have political discussions on his “web site” when those who read his tripe do not comment?

You are sounding more like phool2 everyday.
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October 4, 2009 5:36pm

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