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October 18, 2009 8:13am by David Farrar

General Debate 18 October 2009

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philu

try focussing on ‘the message’ there..viking..?

so..do you think the recession is ‘over’..?..do you..?

and that we aren’t heading for the toilet..?

do tell..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 5:57pm
getstaffed

philu isn’t a problem.

He’s a symptom, both of welfare-as-a-lifestyle being an option in the first place, and also of individuals accepting that this is a reasonable option.

With each successive election cycle the edge of the welfare state has been pushed outwards to evelop more and more kiwis. We MUST stop this
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October 18, 2009 6:01pm
philu

“..Steve that’s about to throw about 1.2kg of prime beef fillet on the BBQ..”

oh well..!..it’s your cancer-choice..eh..?

and bbq-ing the flesh/fat..eh..?

trying to double yr odds..?

eh..?

here’s a thought..!

google ‘beef/bbq/cancer’..

eh..?

educate yrself..!

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 6:01pm
Hurf Durf

Whur whur whur cancer whur

Get a life, phool. Everything gives you cancer. At least meat tastes good and I won’t have a pin neck like you.
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October 18, 2009 6:04pm
Inventory2

Phil – you don’t get it so you? Your “I know what’s good for everyone else” attitude typifies what lost the election for the Labour/Greens bloc last year. Most of us couldn’t give a shit what you think, so naff off!!

PS – the crackling on the roast pork I cooked last night was perfect – just enough fat under the skin to get it to crisp up nicely, and it was DELICIOUS!!!! The crackling’s all been eaten, but I’ll courier a couple of slices of cold roast pork to you tomorrow if you’d like that 😉
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October 18, 2009 6:07pm
getstaffed

Per 3News, Poor old Goff. Voters are clubbing him mercilessly. No personality, no sense of humour. Ouch! Much as I dislike Labour’s politics, there’s no pleasure in seeing anyone being trampled like this.
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October 18, 2009 6:08pm
philu

“..Everything gives you cancer..”

no it dosen’t..

but animal flesh/fat/dairy-products do..

(esp. bowel-cancer..

our rates of which are world-beating..

as is our consumption of meat/animal-dats/dairy..

go figure..!

eh..?

there’s none so ignorant as the willfully ignorant..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 6:16pm
Patrick Starr

Philu – latch key kids are referring to kids between the ages of five and fourteen years. How olds your boy again??????

………excuses are getting pretty thin
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October 18, 2009 6:22pm
philu

this is what i asked early in this thread..

and not one of you has the testicular-fortitude to stand-up/answer it..

“..# philu (6269) 5 4 Says:
October 18th, 2009 at 9:51 am

you righties bang on about getting the state out of yr lives..

and ‘personal-freedoms’…

yet yr govt has just increased the surveillance powers of the police by a quantum -leap..

has shifted the burden of proof of ‘paying for property/assets’..from ‘the proceeds of crime’..

from the state to the individual..

and is now removing a foundation stone of personal rights/liberties..

namely..the right to silence..

(any thoughts on this..?..)

anyway to explain these howling contradictions ..

..in what you say you ‘believe’….?

..and what you actually do..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

(c’mon..!..answer it..!

..surely you’ve had enough ad hominems by now..?..

..eh..?)
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October 18, 2009 6:23pm
nickb

How about this for civil liberties philu?

http://www.greens.org.nz/search/apachesolr_search/ban?searchtext=ban

Geez, take me weeks to sift through that.
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October 18, 2009 6:38pm
Luc Hansen

From getstaffed: “With each successive election cycle the edge of the welfare state has been pushed outwards to evelop(sic) more and more kiwis. We MUST stop this.”

I agree. It’s such a waste of human resources that we find ourselves obliged to increase our welfare rolls. The three biggest areas which could be immediately reduced are: the dole, the super, and the DPB. Strategies are as follows:

Eliminate the dole and abolish the minimum wage. Even if the bludgers have to work for nothing, it’s still a job.

For the super: increase the age eligibility to at least 75.

For DPB: just match each DPB recipient with an formerly unemployed single man and boom! instant baby boom, that is.

Billions saved.

I win a Nobel for…something…dismal science?
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October 18, 2009 6:42pm
Steve

IV2,
don’t give the maggot anything, he thrives on handouts
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October 18, 2009 6:44pm
starboard

..quit while you think u are ahead philwhore..you have been well and truly “reemed” today..eh..
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October 18, 2009 6:46pm
Inventory2

Cheers Steve – there might not be much left by the time I get stuck into it in a few minutes anyway – but it’s the thought that counts eh 😉
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October 18, 2009 6:47pm
philu

the word is actually ‘reamed’..oh illiterate one..!

and i guess who is being ‘reamed’..

is in the eye of the beholder..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 6:55pm
starboard

toke up large whore..you’re days of freeloading are coming to an end…heh heh
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October 18, 2009 7:25pm
Luc Hansen

Where’s my green votes 🙂
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October 18, 2009 7:49pm
philu

hey !..bored..!

my days of responding to anything you say,,have come to an end..

oh..and nckb..and hurf..and..and..

(just so yr not left wondering..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 7:53pm
jabba

Steve .. your BBQ sounds great .. we just have a full family Sunday roast .. feed 8 of us with enough meat for roast pepper steak Sammie’s tomorrow.
Philu .. had a whisky (prefer the Scottish sort even though Tullamore Due Whiskey is nice) and a couple of wines . We did have veggies so won’t be too upset.
(roastmeatyummy.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 7:57pm
philu

i guess it’s a form of self-induced natural selection yr engaged in..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 18, 2009 8:14pm
Viking2

DPF said;[DPF: People’s increased wages cover inflation. Tax cuts are not about covering inflation. They are about giving people more of their own money back, and having less Govt spending than would have been the case without them]

Well the housewives and mothers that I know will mostly all tell you that their wages have not increased since the tax cuts. One said to me this week that she was feeding one less,(4 instead of 5), and her food bill remained the same as last year. (I’m sure your smarter at maths than me but thats a 25% cost increase.).
Our own experience for two of us shows that our groceries have gone from around $100 a week to about 175 in the last 18 months, most of that in the last 6.

Tax cuts are not about giving people back their own money at all. Thats done through WFF and the like. Tax cuts are about reducing the theft of other peoples money by the Govt. Now that’s the difference and why Govt and others simply don’t understand the issue. Tax is a forced deduction of other peoples money i.e. misappropriation of other peoples money to power the state. All of us accept that some is desirable and necessary. many of us think less is best but until those responsible for that theft (while at the same time manipulating their own affairs to avoid that theft), grasp the issue nothing changes.
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October 18, 2009 9:02pm
getstaffed

Luc – Nice to find something we can agree on!
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October 18, 2009 9:08pm
Viking2

Disaster PC. Golliwogs out.

Golliwogs fail to make Toyland return with Noddy

October 18, 2009 – 6:55PM

Noddy will be without some of his best friends when a new book about his latest adventures in Toyland is released.

Noddy’s golliwog mates have been omitted from what will be the first official new book about the little wooden boy for more than 45 years when it is released in late October.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/books/golliwogs-fail-to-make-toyland-return-with-noddy/2009/10/18/1255800500322.html
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October 18, 2009 9:16pm
Fletch

@ Noddy post above –

I think I still have an illegal Noddy book at home from when I was a kid with a Gollywog in it! :O
And strangely enough, it didn’t make me racist at all growing up – in fact, two of my best friends in primary school were Indian.
A relative also knitted me and my sister toy golliwogs.

Adults can be so full of it sometimes…
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October 18, 2009 9:31pm
Luc Hansen

OK folks, let’s have a quickie.

The faith addicts should be safely tucked up in bed, or at least on their knees saying their prayers. Maybe even praying for me 🙂

So, I’m always interested in how YOU have come to the position of atheism, or, if you are like Pascal, at least agnostic (hedging your bets).

My reasons are remarkably shallow compared to the deep thought and hard yards put in by Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens et al

I just always thought, from as long ago as I can remember, even in the face of years of Catholic indoctrination (by no means unpleasant-I was always top of class), that the whole concept was ridiculous. That simple, really.

You?
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October 18, 2009 9:43pm
getstaffed

The faith addicts should be safely tucked up in bed, or at least on their knees saying their prayers. Maybe even praying for me

No, no and yes.
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October 18, 2009 9:47pm
Fletch

re: Noddy – just read this on Wiki –

Mr. Golly who ran the Toyland garage was replaced by Mr. Sparks who in the new 2004 version of the series appears to be Scottish, and the addition by the BBC during the 1992–1994 series of Dinah Doll, described as “a black, assertive minority female.”

LOL! Are they kidding? That really is funny, but somehow kind of lame.
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October 18, 2009 9:47pm
Fletch

Luc, I’m still up, thankyou!

As for Dawkins, it’s amazing that he no longer debates Creationism because he always loses; even to the extent that debates are broomed under the rug and it is pretended like they never happened….except when the debater on the other side finds the video and puts it on the net 😉

Link: http://www.conservapedia.com/Richard_Dawkins
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October 18, 2009 9:54pm
TimG_Oz

“The faith addicts should be safely tucked up in bed, or at least on their knees saying their prayers. Maybe even praying for me :-)”

What is Hamas’ take on it?
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October 18, 2009 10:07pm
Luc Hansen

getstaffed: many thanks 🙂

Fletch: I have always thought that the creationism/evolution debate is rather pointless. It’s belief vs science. Closed vs open mind.

Is that link another one of those doctored vids? 🙂
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October 18, 2009 10:11pm
Luc Hansen

Tim

Hamas is still busy digging dead kids out of rubble.
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October 18, 2009 10:14pm
Hurf Durf

Dead kids from the schools they fired rockets from?
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October 18, 2009 10:17pm
Patrick Starr

@Luc “For DPB: just match each DPB recipient with an formerly unemployed single man and boom! instant baby boom, that is”

Does that mean phool will just continue to have sex with himself?
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October 18, 2009 10:17pm
TimG_Oz

Are those the dead Fatah kids they killed? Or are they still teaching their children that it’s more important to die whilst trying to murder?

So you have a double standard for the Green Party’s violent Hamas colleagues and Kiwibloggers? Who would have guessed…
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October 18, 2009 10:17pm
Patrick Starr

Luc as far as I’m concerned any nation that found cause to celebrate this atrocity in the manner shown deserves nothing more than they got – and will continue to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0&feature=related
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October 18, 2009 10:24pm
Hurf Durf

Are those the dead Fatah kids they killed? Or are they still teaching their children that it’s more important to die whilst trying to murder?

Three golden rules for kids to behave, by Hamas: 1) obey your parents, 2) eat your vegetables and 3) kill the jews.

I’d make a Green Party joke but considering the revolting and irresponsible nature of such agitprop, it would be inappropriate.
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October 18, 2009 10:31pm
Luc Hansen

Hurf, isn’t it just so easy to blame the victim?

Tim, the civil strife between Hamas and Fatah is yet another tragedy for Palestinians, but if you study the results of colonialism and occupation, you will find it is quite common. What you should bear in mind is this: within historic Palestine reside some 4,000,000 Palestinians. Only 60,000, according to the most recent figures I have seen quoted, are members of Fatah or Hamas.

My personal view is that Hamas’ tactics have been counterproductive for the Palestinian cause and, if you followed the news from over there, you will see that Hamas is coming around to that view as well. But I still think time is running out for them.
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October 18, 2009 10:35pm
Luc Hansen

Patrick, good for you mate. Nothing like taking a principled stand on oppressing and slaughtering children. A stand in favour of it, that is. I suppose you would turn the other cheek if it was done to your children.
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October 18, 2009 10:38pm
TimG_Oz

Hmmm … counter productive to use schools and mosques to store weapons from which to launch a barrage of Iranian sourced Grad and Katyusha rockets on civilians. So I assume the occupants of said schools and mosques were therefore the victims of HAMAS?

While I have your attention…. (sorry I was OS last week)

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/10/general_debate_6_october_2009.html#comment-615620

“It is not what the Zionist Ashkenazi elite who control Israel want. I base this statement entirely facts. I am happy to expand on that and if you visit my blog you can contact me directly, no worries. Even if you then publish my email address on here, still no worries. I have the courage of my convictions. But I am open to persuasive arguments in rebuttal.”

Please provide proof of said “Ashkenzi Elite”.

“Ashkenazi” denotes Jews that follow European traditions. It is only relevant to religious Jews, and is completely irrelevant to secular, of which the Israeli government has been dominated by. Given there is no class society amongst Jews, that it is a democracy, and the majority would be loosely Sephardi (the “Sabras”) – I really want to challenge the statement as it stinks to Green Party heaven.
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October 18, 2009 10:49pm
Luc Hansen

No Tim, said victims were victims of Israel’s attacks which, along with Hamas’, have been the subject of the Goldstone report. Let’s be clear about something here: Hamas’ tactics breach international law in that their suicide bombers and rockets clearly target civilians. This does not mean Israel is entitled to breach international law in its response. Now if you splutter in any way that it does, then you have lost me and there is no point in engaging with you. If you want to know an effective response to Hamas, that’s a conversation worth having.

I fail to understand your complaint about my reference to Ashkenazi Jews. It is simply the generally recognised label attached to European Jews of Germanic origin (even according to Wikipedia) and its use is common, even by Israelis. Sephardi are not the majority in Israel; you are simply inventing things. Also, Ashkenazi Jews were the driving force behind Zionism. The point of that post was more about the goals of the country, Israel. I understand that labels are only at best broad brush generalisations, and certainly Ashkenazi can have other uses and meanings. I only use it the most general terms. However, I think my statement you quote was unnecessarily aggressive and detracts from my argument. It’s irrelevant, really. And such an easy trap to fall into.
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October 18, 2009 11:18pm
Hurf Durf

victims were victims of Israel’s attacks which, along with Hamas’, have been the subject of the Goldstone report.

Isn’t it amazing how it’s only Israel’s “crimes” which were referenced and criticised the Marxist/Muslim dominated UNHRC, though?
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October 18, 2009 11:28pm
TimG_Oz

Luc,

If Israeli soldiers committed atrocities, then yes they should be bought to bear. I fail to see any evidence that orders came from above to that effect. There does seem to be some questionable evidence being held as fact

I also look at the response to the Goldstone report:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Israel_analysis_comments_Goldstone_Mission_15-Sep-2009.htm

Did you know that Hamas made public statements praising the women and children that were Human shields? How come that wasn’t mentioned in the Goldstone report?

If Hamas terrorists were firing from within civilian areas are you saying that makes them untouchable by law? Can you please explain that to the Israeli civilians in the firing line….

If you think I was making up the reference to Ashkenazi reference – then check here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#Ethnic_and_religious_groupings. Definitely when I was there, Sephardi were the majority. It was not your only reference to an “Ashkenazi elite” – something which does not exist.
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October 19, 2009 1:58am
Luc Hansen

Yes, I checked this morning and I see the latest stats put the Ashkenazi and Sephardi populations roughly equal. However, I think you misunderstand the reference to an elite. All countries have a ruling elite. Those of great influence through birth advantages, race, wealth, arms, etc. What we call here the ” Born to rule pricks.” 🙂 In the US, probably still known as WASPs. I don’t keep extensive references for everything I read, unfortunately, but my understanding is this does describe the ruling elite of Israel, which are the Ashkenzis, and this group is at the top end of the social indicators. Feel free to point me to stats indicating otherwise. But I repeat, it’s not a discussion I should have initiated and I regret that I did. It is too easily misinterpreted.

As regards Hamas. I am not in the business of defending Hamas. Israel caused Hamas to be created, just as it caused Hezbollah. That damned Law of Unintended Consequences again! Hamas is, at least to our western sensibilities, a singularly unlovely organisation. But Hamas’ extreme views are more a product of the treatment meted out to Palestinians by Israel than a result of Islam or some inherent propensity to violence.

Re Human shields: Ask Goldstone why that wasn’t in the report – and I haven’t read it all yet, so I can’t confirm that. But to imagine Goldstone, both a Jew and “ardent Zionist,” favoured Hamas in some way is simply risible.

As is the idea that the largely ineffectual rockets fired at Israel by radical groups (Hamas is just the biggest) within Gaza justifies the collective punishment of ordinary civilians with the firepower brought into play by Israel, is just obscene. There is no equivalence.

How to respond to the rockets? Why were they being fired? There was a ceasefire in place, Hamas wanted a long term truce, Israel wanted a battleground. That’s the actual historical record although I know you will promote the Israeli version, which I reject. And the real flaw of the Goldstone report was not exploring this issue and putting the facts on record.

And now the collective punishment for the ordinary people of Gaza (1,500,000, remember, most refugees from 1948 expulsions, and their descendants, is compounding as I have read that Hamas has now instituted ” morality police” on the streets of Gaza. Israel bears a lot of responsibility for this turn of events. Legally, as the occupying it is responsible for the welfare of the people of Gaza. They are now under two armed occupiers.

And just to get my retaliation in first, I am positive that Hamas would not have been elected (with a minority of the votes, by the way) if it had been known what would happen. No-one guessed the world would not heed the lessons of the past and engage with Hamas. No-one knew Israel would begin to starve the population prior to the full blockade after Hamas’ takeover (is a blockade not a declaration of war?) And you don’t slaughter people just for voting the wrong way, do you? Or for being oppressed twice over, do you?

Just in closing, the single biggest propaganda success of Israel has been to paint the conflict as one between equals – and it is a singularly distorted view.
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October 19, 2009 1:57pm

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