General Debate 11 October 2009

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Manolo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8299079.stm

More information to fuel the debate. It will drive crazy the climate change fundamentalists and greenies who claim the sky is falling.

P.S. DPF, my apologies for the double posting but there was no General Debate topic when I initially posted this.
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October 11, 2009 8:10am
cha

Scary video from a surveillance camera at the FBI’s office in Pago Pago, American Samoa, showing the tsunami rushing into the parking lot.
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October 11, 2009 8:43am
Inventory2

Terrific performnace from the All Whites this morning – a nil-all draw gives them a great chance now of qualifying for South Africa. Bring on the return leg in Wellington; bring on the wind; bring on the rain, and most importantly, let’s hope for a noisy full house at the Cake Tin.
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October 11, 2009 8:48am
jcuknz

A sad/happy story to remind us of the position of children in the Gaza strip … Israel’s own concentration camp.
http://greenvoices.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/wild-donkeys/
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October 11, 2009 8:53am
big bruv

Despite the lies of Toad, Frog and Greenfly we now know the truth about Conrade Bradford.

It really has been a bad couple of weeks for the Greens, first they were exposed for ripping off the tax payer and now they have again been exposed as the bullshitters we all knew they are.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/news/2952036/Why-Bradford-quit-Parliament
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October 11, 2009 9:04am
billyborker

The most important evolutionary science discovery of the decade has been rendered meaningless because it isn’t mentioned in the bible.

Just how stoopid do you have to be to be a xtian?

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/creationists-science-bible-disprove-ardi-fossil-evidence-evolution/Story?id=8766121&page=1
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October 11, 2009 9:13am
Put it away

“Bradford’s resignation follows a serious disagreement with the party over strategy and ideology. ” – yep, they want to be watermelons, she’s happy to be a tomato.
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October 11, 2009 9:22am
Patrick Starr

DPF If you’re reading this i’d be interested in your thoughts on a report Deborah Coddington refers;
“Ethnic identity and exposure to childhood maltreatment” in which Coddington concludes;
“First, the good news, which may come as a huge surprise to many. If you are Maori, you are less likely than non-Maori to be sexually abused.”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10602508

In reading the report firstly I’m left to wonder if Christchurch can be representative of the rest of NZ, and have some difficulty with the method, surely you’d establish whether sexual activities were taking place prior to asking if it was welcome?
“At each assessment, participants were asked whether, before the age of 16, anyone had ever attempted to involve them in any of a series of 15 sexual activities when they did not want this to happen, including….:”
http://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/journals-and-magazines/social-policy-journal/spj36/36-ethnic-identity-and-exposure-to-maltreatment-in-childhood.html#Methods4

surely these results say more about honesty than actual experience? Why not just rely on nationwide CYFs reporting?
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October 11, 2009 9:24am
Put it away

Dorker – so they’ve gone from faking news stories to faking zebras ?
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October 11, 2009 9:25am
Inventory2

billyborker said “Just how stoopid do you have to be to be a xtian?”

As a believer, I’d say far less stupid than you have to be NOT to be a Christian!
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October 11, 2009 9:26am
dad4justice

“Evolution is supposedly based on science, but the science does not prove what they want it to. Creationism is not based on scientific observation but on God’s word. God created everything in six days, and that’s it.”

Thanks for the link dorker, Amen to that.
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October 11, 2009 9:29am
billyborker

So belief is the key? Not evidence?

There is a cornocupia of gods, a heavenly smorgasboard from which to choose, and yet you chose just one (or is it 3) to believe.

You and I are both atheists. You are an atheist when it comes to all other religions. You simply believe in one god (or is it 3 gods) more than I.

When you analyse and understand why you reject all the other possible gods, then you will also understand why I reject yours.

So yes, it takes a great deal of stoopidity to be a xtian, juts a little rational thought to not be
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October 11, 2009 9:33am
Put it away

My mistake, it was jack-u-nz not dorker who posted the zebra fraud
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October 11, 2009 9:34am
cha

If this is going to turn into a ‘bag the xtians’ thread can I offer this wonderful news item.

Texas televangelist Benny Hinn refused entry to Britain
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October 11, 2009 9:36am
billyborker

Oh FUCK, here comes the bible bashing fundamentalist moron squad.

And we allow these people to breed. My heart blleds for their children, children who will be denied the wonder that it is to be fully human.
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October 11, 2009 9:38am
Put it away

Prob a copyright dispute with Benny Hill LOL
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October 11, 2009 9:42am
cha

And on cue the young earth creationists at Answers in Genesis, of course, accuse the scientists of being “attention seekers” and dismiss the Ardipithecus fossil out of hand.

Without having a live “Ardi” to observe, scientists will only ever be able to come to probabilistic conclusions about its characteristics. As far as we’re concerned, the evolutionary “threat” to creationists from Ardi is no more than that posed by Ida: viz., none.<p?
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October 11, 2009 9:48am
Simon

Nothing like Leftards going on about Christians but believe in intelligent design economics.
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October 11, 2009 9:52am
billyborker

Simon, its not about left or right – its about science and superstition.

Guess we know which side of the fence you’re on – the stoopid side.
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October 11, 2009 9:58am
Simon

Spoken like a true believer billy. State worshiper science dont come into it.

Billybeliever
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October 11, 2009 10:03am
philu

key on q&a is a joke…

he ..listing all the reasons to do what he is doing..(crime etc..)

actually lists all the reasons for a health-focussed approach..

(and his delusion that two-weeks of lock-up ‘rehab will ‘cure’ p-heads..is just a total joke..)

when asked the outcome of this latest banning..key said ‘the price will go up’..

and holmes..in his single shining moment of lucidity in the whole interview..

said:’won’t that mean more crime?’..

(a question key avoided answering..

and of course..holmes did no follow-up..)

it also has to be one of the most abject examples of a forelock-tugging/craven/un-questioning interview on record….

at one stage i thought holmes would not only simper..but would also whimper..and get down and kiss keys’ shoes..)

bah..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 11, 2009 10:03am
starboard

..its sunday whore..how about having a day off…
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October 11, 2009 10:08am
Redbaiter

Borker and Ure again…. sigh. That’s me outta here.
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October 11, 2009 10:09am
philu

whoar is ‘on’ every day..

(news’ don’t sleep..)

and..

goodbye rouge-enticer..(a.k.a.red-russ..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 11, 2009 10:51am
Patrick Starr

it’s what whoar is ‘on’ thats a concern
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October 11, 2009 11:04am
Herman Poole

Is Rod Oram the next Chris Trotter?

His opinion piece this week struck a new low, an incoherent rambling load of inane drivel somehow claiming letters to the editor are derailing our tourism industry.

He says that government overseas advertising of $350 million is ‘slender support’ for the tourism industry. Does he have no notion that private business pays for its own advertising and may prefer to do so? How can this man write a business column when his average reader understands far more about business than him.

He finishes with a bit that could have come straight from PhilU about Key’s letterman performance. Key is not a professional comedian and the offer to appear on the show was not to any person we chose, any numpty understands that the audience for Letterman exists for guests spending 5 minutes being lame with Dave. Advertorials have a much smaller audience and greater cost.

How the hell does the SST or Stuff expect to stem the flow of readers to other sources with this idiot fronting their business sections?
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October 11, 2009 11:06am
nickb

Another thumbs up for your 10.03 philu.
Holmes is hardly the most appropriate interviewer in this instance.
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October 11, 2009 11:15am
philu

poole said..

“..He finishes with a bit that could have come straight from PhilU about Key’s letterman performance. .”

um..!..cd u actually point out/link to where i have said anything of the sort..

and when you realise you can’t..could you stop just making stuff up..?

i mean..sheesh..!..i get more than enough grief for what i actually do say..

i don’t need more/made-up stuff..

and..anyway..

this was the killer-argument in orams’ piece..

“..Journal readers had a second dose of New Zealand on Tuesday.

Tim Groser, minister of trade and climate change negotiations, wrote about government efforts, begun under Labour..

.. to build an international research consortium on agricultural emissions.

A visionary, upbeat piece.

But if readers stopped to check the reality they would be deeply disappointed.

Agriculture is, indeed, in the ETS .. but on such an easy timeframe as to be virtually meaningless in terms of driving scientific breakthroughs, technology development ..

.. and commercial application of emission-reducing practices.

Moreover, the government and the primary sector are spending only some $15m a year on the science.

International exposure of the gulf between our promise and delivery ..

.. would be deeply damaging..”

(now..what’s not accurate/true about that..?..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/rod-oram-keys-mixed-messages-abroad-dont-do-us-any-favoursinternational-exposure-of-the-gulf-between-our-promise-and-delivery-would-be-deeply-damaging/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 11, 2009 11:34am
Herman Poole

Phil,

I don’t actually read your stuff. I just used your name to associate Rod Oram with something unintelligent.
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October 11, 2009 11:49am
Johnboy

“I don’t actually read your stuff.” Good choice there Herman. phil is to blog posting as irritable bowel syndrome is to shit.
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October 11, 2009 11:59am
philu

england has had an independant audit of m.p’s expense claims..stretching back five years..

we should do that here..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/nowthis-is-what-we-should-do-herean-independant-audit-of-mps-expensewhy-claimsover-the-past-five-yearsexpenses-bills-return-to-haunt-up-to-100-mps/

.“..The expenses scandal is set to engulf the House of Commons again on Monday ..

.. when MPs will be sent an auditor’s letter about the claims they made over the past five years.

The Times has learnt that up to 100 MPs will be asked to repay expenses ..

.. or prove that their claims were legitimate.

About a dozen are likely to face demands to hand back significant sums ..

.. in some cases “tens of thousands of pounds”.

Investigators working for Sir Thomas Legg, a former civil servant appointed by the Commons to audit MPs’ expenses, are understood to have focused on big mortgage claims ..

.. as well as extravagant charges for household services.

Sir Thomas is also said to have widened the net of his investigation to include MPs who exploited loopholes..

.. to make claims that were in breach of the spirit, if not the letter, of the fees system.

“If I was an MP getting a letter suggesting I repay sums, then in the current climate it would be foolish not to do so ..

.. even if the claims were within the rules,” said a Commons official close to the inquiry.

Some MPs have already had to pay back four-figure sums after being found to have claimed the full cost of their mortgages ..

.. rather than merely the interest that they are allowed .. under the rules..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 11, 2009 12:48pm
Manolo

Rod Oram? Arrghhh. The name of Clark’s prominent cheerleader is vomit-inducing.

I’ll never forget his newspaper column a few days before the election endorsing Labour and its “progressive” economic policies. Oram is an unrepentant left-winger.
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October 11, 2009 12:55pm
getstaffed

Jumped across from the ‘Branford Quits..’ thread because this would be off-topic there.

Check out NZ’s ranking in the Tax Revenue as a % of GDP stakes.

Note that we’re 4th worst, behind Madagascar, Lesotho and Seychelles.

Also note this was assessed in 2005 and it probably doesn’t include taxation levers such as ACC and pseudo-taxation raised via profits from state owned power companies.

Instead of making the principled/tough decisions, the pyramid scheme of troughers (ruled by our Yertle the Turtle politicians) keep adding new layers of ‘entitlement’ to support their aspiration for continued comfort and power.

National are Smurfs – blue on the outside and red on the inside. Never thought I’d say that, but it’s painfully obvious now.
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October 11, 2009 1:01pm
Elijah Lineberry

The Sydney Morning Herald reports “..chefs and hairdressers will be the most sought after occupations in the next five years..”

A pity it is not “scientists and engineers”…

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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October 11, 2009 1:17pm
getstaffed

From stuff.

Raising the MeWe Generation
Raising children who focus less on themselves is a challenge for most parents. Family therapist Michael Ungar has some tips. more …

A valuable read for parents by the looks. I’ll buy this book for a local Family Community organisation I’m involved with.
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October 11, 2009 1:19pm
backster

MANOLO:…..Even the BBC is wrong in claiming 1998 was the warmest year on record.

* Only 4 of the top 10 warmest years occurred in the past 10 years (1998, 1999, 2006)
* Out of the top 10 warmest years half occurred before 1940
* The years 2000, 2002, 2003 and 2004 were cooler than the year 1900
* 1996, just two years before what Al Gore called the hottest year in the history of the planet, was actually cooler than average.
* 1921 was the third warmest year in recorded history (behind 1934 and 1998).
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October 11, 2009 2:35pm
Elijah Lineberry

I see more of the Greenpeace chappies have been arrested; this time it was in New Plymouth for vandalising a ship.

No doubt they will be let off (yet again) as they were in Tauranga a few weeks back for continued evil ‘Crimes Against Capitalism’.

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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October 11, 2009 3:17pm
Viking2

LEST WE FORGET.

If Nick Smith had been describing his emissions trading scheme he would have been spot on!

Quote:
Nelson/Marlborough Farming Column – December 2005
Nick Smith
Friday, 25 November 2005

The appetite of Dr Cullen and this Government for more taxes is legendary, 43 new and increased levies and taxes have been introduced. The latest is the carbon tax. It will add 6c per litre to the price of petrol, 7c per litre to diesel, 6% to all power bills and put the price of coal and gas up by 9%.

This week National launches the axecarbontax.co.nz campaign. The new finely balanced Parliament gives us the opportunity to send the carbon tax the way of the fart tax.

The madness of the Government’s new carbon tax is that New Zealanders will be the only people in the world paying it. It will drive up the costs of living and undermine the competitiveness of New Zealand business for negligible environmental gain.

Labour Ministers may take pride in being toasted at International Climate conferences for being so bold and brave, but there is no justification for New Zealand going out in the cold by itself on this issue.

New Zealand’s greenhouse gas emissions made up only 0.4% of the global total and on a per capita basis our emissions are half those of countries like Australia and the United States. We are the only Southern Hemisphere country with binding legal obligations under Kyoto and giants like China and India have got off scot free.

The carbon tax will cost the Nelson and Marlborough regions $25 million a year. We are particularly hard hit because industries like fishing, farming and forestry are big fuel consumers. The tax is particularly insulting to the forestry sector and those farmers who have woodlots because the Government has taken the carbon credits for themselves. Only a Labour Government would have the audacity to impose a carbon credit on the forester for his diesel use but steal the carbon credits from his growing forest.

A further concern of the carbon tax is its impact on inflation, interest rates and the exchange rate. It will add to the costs of fuel and power and these flow right through the economy to basics like food. This puts pressure on inflation, which in turn drives up interest rates and the kiwi dollar. The Government’s carbon tax is a classic example of the way the Government is making things tougher for the productive exporting sector. It just makes their policies of 2006 being the ‘Year of Exports’ an exercise in shallow spin.

It is also interesting to note who gets exempted from the carbon tax. Big industries like Colmalco, New Zealand Steel and Golden Bay Cement have the option of Negotiated Greenhouse Agreements (NGA’s). These are being done on the basis that such big players would relocate if imposed with the carbon tax. The flaw is that many small and medium businesses face exactly the same competition but just get dumped with the cost.

These agreements also drag New Zealand back into the Muldoonist era of industries pleading special cases to Ministers and mates rates for those who cuddle (or at least don’t criticise) the Government.

The worst aspect of the carbon tax is that it will not make one iota of difference to New Zealand’s emissions. We know from previous occasions when Labour raised the petrol tax that 6c per litre extra will not reduce consumption. Even Treasury’s briefing papers to the incoming Government conceded it would have a negligible effect. The only conclusion is that the carbon tax actually has nothing to do with Kyoto or climate change but is just an excuse for Dr Cullen to get his fingers deeper into the pockets of New Zealanders.

National believes, with public support, we can defeat this new tax. ACT, United and NZ First all campaigned against it during the Election. Labour and the Greens do not have the numbers. The Maori Party may determine its fate. In Parliament however, the fart tax was killed off by people power and the carbon tax could fall the same way.

The Nelson and Marlborough economies are struggling. The last thing we need is another $25 million being sucked out with this new tax. If you would like to assist the ‘axecarbontax’ petition and campaign, contact my office. We need to bury this lemon.

With compliments from NZCPD.com
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October 11, 2009 3:39pm
Luc Hansen

it’s time the Last Post was sounded for Nick Smith’s political career.
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October 11, 2009 4:44pm
Luc Hansen

Billy, this quote from your link says it all for me:

“The creation of the world takes place on page one of the Bible. If you throw out the first page of the Bible you might as well throw out the whole thing. If you can’t live with the first page then pitch out the remaining thousand pages.”

I need to remember this one for all those amateur and professional historians who cherry-pick the Bible for what suits them. Quit a few on here, too!

Any one for a Hansen’s Productions episode of “Exodus”?
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October 11, 2009 4:51pm
billyborker

How about the religious who do exactly the same cherry picking? Ever read M&M’s blog? Or Ian Wishart?

To me it is easier, and intellectually honest, to throw out the whole thing, keeping it in mind just as a bunch of fairytales by authors several rungs below The Brothers Grimm.
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October 11, 2009 4:55pm
village idiot

‘Plastic’ Key.
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October 11, 2009 6:21pm
Luc Hansen

billy

my point exactly
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October 11, 2009 8:20pm
getstaffed

Ah the Jew hater and the Christian hater e-meet. Isn’t this interweb-thingie a wonderful place!
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October 11, 2009 8:27pm
Luc Hansen

getstaffed

You are but one of the misguided racists here.

I fail to see how a call for equality of rights in historic Palestine entails Jew-hating.

Personally, I think DPF should catch up with the modern world and ban hate speech.

But maybe that’s just Not-PC
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October 11, 2009 8:35pm
Luc Hansen

Has anyone seen my studious but somewhat long reply to virtualmark anywhere?

Maybe I need to chop it in half and repost…
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October 11, 2009 8:37pm
getstaffed

Luc – your own [extensive] words, over successive posts condem you as a hater of Jews. Sorry pal, that’s the truth… be man enough to admit it. Do feel free to highlight where I’ve made racist comments.
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October 11, 2009 8:42pm
Luc Hansen

Typical…I’m sure it won’t be too hard, but I don’t have that much time available.

Most of what I posted to VM (but lost some where in the bowels of WordPress) applies to you too, from memory.

But it’s OK for you to indulge in hate speech?

As in accusing me of hate. Same thing.

I post about facts. I post about human rights. I post about injustice.

There are unlovely people on both sides of the Israel/Palestine dilemma, but my overriding emotion is one of sorrow.

Can you please highlight where I have said or indicated I hate Jews?
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October 11, 2009 8:58pm
Luc Hansen

virtualmark (and other interested parties):

I withdraw my use of the word mendacious in relation to your posts; a bit OT, sorry.

But part of the problem I have with your posts is that you claim to be neutral but you post a long list of alleged Palestinian sins, and for “balance” say…O, Israel has done one or two bad things too.

All you items of Palestinian misdeed are either rebutted or contextualised in many resources such as freely available books by, say, Pappe, Finkelstein, Segev or, if you prefer non-Jewish sources, like Rashid Khalidi. On the web: http://electronicintifada.net and http://www.quimseyeh.org (Mazin sends a weekly newsletter to over 50,000 readers to which you can subscribe) and http://www.palestineremembered.com are all goldmines of information and, especially important, a Palestinian point of view.

In addition, http://www.arabhra.org and http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/ are worth regular visits and you will understand the level of racism within Israel in a very short time.

Life’s busy: between work, being the daytime carer for our one year old (the only quiet time is when the little darling is sleeping) it’s quite irritating to get deluged with the sort of stuff you and KIA post when rebuttals (if they are appropriate) or further context is readily available. But you must seek out alternative points of view to genuinely project an neutral view.

I just don’t see the balance you claim. Furthermore, all this past stuff is largely irrelevant. The whole world, with the exceptions, it seems, of Israel, seeks two states. I include Hamas. Hamas has changed its mind, if not its charter, and has let it be known for a long time now that it is ready to talk. But Likud must take the same walk as Labour before any Israeli govt can sign a peace deal.

And it is not up to us to supplant the existing international consensus with our own inventions. For example, your statement “I think a Palestinian state would be an illusory outcome…” That’s just not a serious contribution to resolving the issue. The only alternative, under your view, is therefore the one state solution but i don’t see you advocating that. It’s just adding noise.

And this: “I don’t, and neither do most people, adopt the Arab interpretation that “land for peace” means first Israel must give back the land… (before negotiations open).” Well, first study the consensus, recognise that presently the PA has only asked for colonisation activity to cease before negotiations, and accept these are all big boys who can sort that out at the negotiating table. It’s just more noise.

More links in response to your Camp David “generous offer” query: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9220.shtml and http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9181.shtml

And http://www.democracynow.com has excellently objective coverage, should be right up your alley. In fact I have just watched the Sept 7 episode on itunes and there is really good coverage of the machinations surrounding the Goldstone report.

I have no problem addressing specific queries if I can, so long as they are not buried in lists of real or imagined Palestinian sins that are irrelevant to the present day situation, I can’t be bothered having to read through for the millionth time, sorry.

Now let’s address racism. You don’t like the Wiki definition, so try this Encarta Concise English Edition: 1. prejudice or animosity against people who belong to other races 2. the belief that people of different races have different qualities and abilities, and that some races are inherently superior or inferior.

And racist: 1. based on the notions and stereotypes related to race.

Now I am afraid you can’t go before a race relations board and say this is my definition of racism and by that I am not a racist. You stereotype a whole ethnic group with accusations of poor choices as a group, and cultural immaturity, as a group. Not only is this insulting, colonialist language, it’s incredibly offensive, I’m sure, to Palestinians.

Many Palestinian leaders, leaders of many Arab states and probably all Western leaders have served the almost powerless and defenceless Palestinians poorly from the ending of the 700 year Turkish occupation. To project their failures onto Palestinians as a people is deeply racist. Think about it. Many of us, myself included, can be guilty of unconscious racism and we need to pull ourselves up and rethink.

Finally, I make no claim to neutrality. We don’t have to be neutral, and shouldn’t be, in fact. Objectively, the complicity of the West in the dispossession of Palestinians on the back of European atrocities against Jews is obscene. Palestinians had just come out of a 700 year occupation, and were then decimated militarily by the British during the period of the Mandate, despite fighting for the West. Then their fellow Arabs fought poorly on their behalf and paid scant regard to Palestinian rights anyway, as the occupations of Jordan and Gaza demonstrated. Now Egypt and the PA basically all act as subcontractors to Israel, although the PA has been shaken to the core with its latest betrayal.

Pragmatists don’t and should not disregard human rights. Palestinians have endured continued suppression of their rights, not just at the hands of Israel, but the West in general. They are not about to give up.

But we can’t wind back the clock. The international consensus calls for two states and a negotiated resolution of the refugee issue.
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October 11, 2009 9:00pm
Luc Hansen

virtualmark (and other interested parties):

I withdraw my use of the word mendacious in relation to your posts; a bit OT, sorry.

But part of the problem I have with your posts is that you claim to be neutral but you post a long list of alleged Palestinian sins, and for “balance” say…O, Israel has done one or two bad things too.

All you items of Palestinian misdeed are either rebutted or contextualised in many resources such as freely available books by, say, Pappe, Finkelstein, Segev or, if you prefer non-Jewish sources, like Rashid Khalidi. On the web: http://electronicintifada.net and http://www.quimseyeh.org (Mazin sends a weekly newsletter to over 50,000 readers to which you can subscribe) and http://www.palestineremembered.com are all goldmines of information and, especially important, a Palestinian point of view.
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October 11, 2009 9:02pm
Luc Hansen

and virtualmark:

In addition, http://www.arabhra.org and http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/ are worth regular visits and you will understand the level of racism within Israel in a very short time.

Life’s busy: between work, being the daytime carer for our one year old (the only quiet time is when the little darling is sleeping) it’s quite irritating to get deluged with the sort of stuff you and KIA post when rebuttals (if they are appropriate) or further context is readily available. But you must seek out alternative points of view to genuinely project an neutral view.

I just don’t see the balance in your posts you claim. Furthermore, much of this historical stuff is largely irrelevant. The whole world, with the exceptions, it seems, of Israel, seeks two states. I include Hamas. Hamas has changed its mind, if not its charter, and has let it be known for a long time now that it is ready to talk. But Likud must take the same walk as Labour before any Israeli govt can sign a peace deal.

And it is not up to us to supplant the existing international consensus with our own inventions. For example, your statement “I think a Palestinian state would be an illusory outcome…” That’s just not a serious contribution to resolving the issue. The only alternative, under your view, is therefore the one state solution but i don’t see you advocating that. It’s just adding noise.

And this: “I don’t, and neither do most people, adopt the Arab interpretation that “land for peace” means first Israel must give back the land… (before negotiations open).” Well, first study the consensus, recognise that presently the PA has only asked for colonisation activity to cease before negotiations, and accept these are all big boys who can sort that out at the negotiating table. It’s just more noise.

More links in response to your Camp David “generous offer” query: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9220.shtml and http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9181.shtml

And http://www.democracynow.com has excellently objective coverage, should be right up your alley. In fact I have just watched the Sept 7 episode on itunes and there is really good coverage of the machinations surrounding the Goldstone report.

I have no problem addressing specific queries if I can, so long as they are not buried in lists of real or imagined Palestinian sins that are irrelevant to the present day situation, I can’t be bothered having to read through for the millionth time, sorry.
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October 11, 2009 9:14pm
Luc Hansen

But wait, there’s more!

Now let’s address racism. You don’t like the Wiki definition, so try this Encarta Concise English Edition: 1. prejudice or animosity against people who belong to other races 2. the belief that people of different races have different qualities and abilities, and that some races are inherently superior or inferior.

And racist: 1. based on the notions and stereotypes related to race.

Now I am afraid you can’t go before a race relations board and say this is my definition of racism and by that I am not a racist. You stereotype a whole ethnic group with accusations of poor choices as a group, and cultural immaturity, as a group. Not only is this insulting, colonialist language, it’s incredibly offensive, I’m sure, to Palestinians.

Many Palestinian leaders, leaders of many Arab states and probably all Western leaders have served the almost powerless and defenceless Palestinians poorly from the ending of the 700 year Turkish occupation. To project their failures onto Palestinians as a people is deeply racist. Think about it. Many of us, myself included, can be guilty of unconscious racism and we need to pull ourselves up and rethink.

Finally, I make no claim to neutrality. We don’t have to be neutral, and shouldn’t be, in fact. Objectively, the complicity of the West in the dispossession of Palestinians on the back of European atrocities against Jews is obscene. Palestinians had just come out of a 700 year occupation, and were then decimated militarily by the British during the period of the Mandate, despite fighting for the West. Then their fellow Arabs fought poorly on their behalf and paid scant regard to Palestinian rights anyway, as the occupations of Jordan and Gaza demonstrated. Now Egypt and the PA basically all act as subcontractors to Israel, although the PA has been shaken to the core with its latest betrayal.

Pragmatists don’t and should not disregard human rights. Palestinians have endured continued suppression of their rights, not just at the hands of Israel, but the West in general. They are not about to give up.

But we can’t wind back the clock. The international consensus calls for two states and a negotiated resolution of the refugee issue.
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October 11, 2009 9:16pm
Luc Hansen

In addition, http://www.arabhra.org and http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/ are worth regular visits and you will understand the level of racism within Israel in a very short time.

Life’s busy: between work, being the daytime carer for our one year old (the only quiet time is when the little darling is sleeping) it’s quite irritating to get deluged with the sort of stuff you and KIA post when rebuttals (if they are appropriate) or further context is readily available. But you must seek out alternative points of view to genuinely project an neutral view.

I just don’t see the balance you claim. Furthermore, all this past stuff is largely irrelevant. The whole world, with the exceptions, it seems, of Israel, seeks two states. I include Hamas. Hamas has changed its mind, if not its charter, and has let it be known for a long time now that it is ready to talk. But Likud must take the same walk as Labour before any Israeli govt can sign a peace deal.

And it is not up to us to supplant the existing international consensus with our own inventions. For example, your statement “I think a Palestinian state would be an illusory outcome…” That’s just not a serious contribution to resolving the issue. The only alternative, under your view, is therefore the one state solution but i don’t see you advocating that. It’s just adding noise.

And this: “I don’t, and neither do most people, adopt the Arab interpretation that “land for peace” means first Israel must give back the land… (before negotiations open).” Well, first study the consensus, recognise that presently the PA has only asked for colonisation activity to cease before negotiations, and accept these are all big boys who can sort that out at the negotiating table. It’s just more noise.

This should have been in the middle of the previous two posts:

More links in response to your Camp David “generous offer” query: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9220.shtml and http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9181.shtml

And http://www.democracynow.com has excellently objective coverage, should be right up your alley. In fact I have just watched the Oct 6 episode on itunes and there is really good coverage of the machinations surrounding the Goldstone report.

I have no problem addressing specific queries if I can, so long as they are not buried in lists of real or imagined Palestinian sins that are irrelevant to the present day situation, I can’t be bothered having to read through for the millionth time, sorry.
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October 11, 2009 9:39pm
Hurf Durf

YER WACIST FOR OPPOSIN PALI THUGGERY AND INCOMPETENCE.

but the West in general.

As usual, no criticism for Egypt or Jordan.
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October 11, 2009 11:50pm

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