General Debate 4 September 2009

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Brian Smaller

Are there any people in Wellington who are Kiwiblog readers who play Classic Traveller? Am interested in joining or starting a group if I can find other like -minded people.
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September 4, 2009 7:23am
Banana Llama

Leaders of Tomorrow, kind of like saying the sky will be blue Tomorrow.
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September 4, 2009 7:39am
Chthoniid

TGIF Photo is an endangered bird- NZ dotterel- Urupukapuka Island

http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v2/p751208816-5.jpg

Looks like it will be a lovely Spring day 🙂
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September 4, 2009 7:55am
Chicken Little

It’s hailing here in Napier Chthoniid.

Spring indeed.
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September 4, 2009 8:22am
bearhunter

Gorgeous up here in Auckland, a stellar morning. That dotterel looks like he’s sore about something.
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September 4, 2009 8:26am
bharmer

Fine here in the Harbour Capital, though a little cool still. Great shot as always Chthoniid.
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September 4, 2009 8:31am
hj

Media 7 lastnight.

” Thursday September 3 – Smacking debate – It is starting to look more and more like a never ending story.

First we had the controversial legislation which tied up Parliament for years… Then a law change, a referendum with a dumb question, more rhetoric from the politicians, the odd death threat and now full page advertisements in every daily newspaper from a powerful lobby with deep pockets.

The right to smack one’s children goes to the heart of the so called “nanny-state” question and it pits New Zealanders against each other in a debate where reason and moderation go by the board.
Media people – who are mostly small “l” liberals — have found it hard to come to grips with the story.

Maybe their hearts are not in it… and television in particular has tied itself in knots in the continual search for actual pictures of the now-outlawed practice of smacking as a means of correction.

Journalist Matt Nippert, Broadcaster Brian Edwards and indefatigable referendum campaigner, Larry Baldock join Russell Brown on this week’s episode of Media 7 to unravel the smacking issue. “

They don’t get it Russel Brown asked “do you think if the yes vote had a Garth McVicar they would have done better and Matt Nippert suggested that the people who frame the referendum question always win (I think he said). Brian Edwards did his best in a big huff to make a valid point out of the fact that the No Vote had a party to celebrate “and your celebrating smacking children… and I find that abominable” (or similar word). Edwards huffs and puffs “why oh why don’t you except my point. It’s obviously the erudite one” (he doesn’t say that outright , you have to read between the lines).

I’m reminded of the Press editorial where he says the referendum is inconsequential; how wrong: it has shown that despite the government creating official positions such as children’s commissioner and groups such as the Psychological Society supporting Yes Vote and Sue Bradford and editorial after editorial supporting Yes Vote people don’t trust these groups/ individuals, and gee! look how many people showed up for the “No” vote.
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September 4, 2009 8:43am
MikeNZ

No Brian we’re Settlers of Catan type games people.
There used to be a gaming night at a pub in Featherston Street a few years back.
Don’t know if it’s still on as I didn’t stay (too much cigarette smoke).
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September 4, 2009 8:44am
MikeNZ

My boy’s just done an essay on irony.
Whats your piece supposed to be HJ?
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September 4, 2009 8:46am
labrator

Chthoniid, that bird’s got sass!
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September 4, 2009 9:16am
labrator

Anybody else seen the Lynfield Girls fight? That poor teacher. Notice how he’s not even allowed to touch the girls? If he’d just been able to grab one in an arm lock and walk her away it would have all been fine. Instead he gets knocked over in the ensuing melee. Do we now need security guards on our highschools because we’ve hamstring our teachers from being able to enact reasonable guardianship in the interests of students rights?
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September 4, 2009 9:18am
Brian Smaller

MikeNZ – The Forum moved from the Featherston to the Ferrymans many years ago – still on a Monday night. Settlers of Catan is a great game to be sure.
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September 4, 2009 9:18am
MyNameIsJack

Anyone know what language these drop kicks were speaking?
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September 4, 2009 9:46am
Inventory2

Glorious day in WangaVegas, but there’s certainly no global warming going on!
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September 4, 2009 9:49am
Brian Smaller

Inventory2 – I am moving there later in the year if things work out for us. Weather doesn’t look too bad.
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September 4, 2009 9:51am
bearhunter

Don’t worry IV2, the increasingly bilious outpourings of your mayor will keep you all warm…
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September 4, 2009 9:52am
Jack5

New topic for a second… the Otaki schoolchildren as catspaws for school and parents continue the stand-off with Laws in the attempt to force the Wanganui majority into changing their city’s name to Whanganui…

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10595135

********

Whell’s teeth. Whoa. What the whuck are the whanau of the Otaki whippersnappers on about over W(h)anganui?

Whose whopper is this? Who wheedled whee kids into whriting out the whinging whine that whomsoever’s whanau or whacker-teacher wrote out in whole or whoutline whirst? Whilst whee whelps and whipsters have the right to whine about what’s whappened in the wholesome whirl of democracy (one man or one whoman one whote), it must be wholly their own whork and wholly their own whriting, no matter how whooly and wheak.

Is this a whiff of wheedling W(h)anganui whetting whanau whishes for whole whiphand over whity?

Whatever by whomever, it’s a whale of a whucking whopper.
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September 4, 2009 9:54am
OTGO

Two comments re the Lynfield girls fight:
1. cell phone video needs to get better
2. arm teachers with tazers
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September 4, 2009 10:04am
TripeWryter

About the video:
Authority has broken down.
The teacher did not even convey authority.
He should have taken the sunglasses off his head.
These schoolgirls did not respect him, or anyone else.
Or else their hormones were in overdrive.
Or else it was the wrong time of the month for them.
Or else they they knew they’d end up on YouTube.
Or else they thought they would be famous.

There will be more copy-catting.

We are reaping what we as adults have sowed over the last 20 years. Teachers gave away their authority. They said that if they did away with corporal punishment then that would give children an example that conflict and behavioural problems would not be sorted out with violence.

Twenty, 30, 40, 50 years ago, we didn’t have school invasions, did we? Twenty, 30, 40, 50 years ago, we didn’t dare scream abuse at our teachers, did we?
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September 4, 2009 10:25am
fredinthegrass

Chthoniid – have missed your weekly offerings. Once I figure out how to post a pic! I have a passable shot of a
White-Tailed Sea Eagle taken off the northern coast of Norway. Oh! And I missed the good coffee we take for
granted in NZ. How they drink the stuff they call coffee I dont know.
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September 4, 2009 10:28am
Brian Smaller

The interesting thing about this Laws beat-up is that the letters were sent and replied to in April apparently. Someone sitting on this and thinking that the timing would be good – re: the gang-ptach law perhaps? Those kids were pawns.
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September 4, 2009 10:43am
labrator

@tripewryter While I was at school I remember a student trying to start a fight. The tall, robust male teacher who he’d been assigned too intervened so the student turned on him. The teacher put him in a headlock and marched him off to the principals office where I believe he was suspended. I think he came back to school and whilst always wild had learnt his lesson, not to mess with teachers. Now compare that to the video. If that teacher even touched a student to prevent the fight, well, he probably would have been sacked.
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September 4, 2009 10:52am
gazzmaniac

Michael Laws said:
“There is nothing worse than a strong opinion that is ignorantly founded.”

That’s a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, isn’t it? He has made several assumptions in writing those letters, mainly that the teacher put them up to it (which may or may not be true) and that all maoris are child beaters (which certainly isn’t true). Some of his own opinions are equally ignorantly founded.

And I really don’t see how banning gang patches is going to stop gangs from operating.
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September 4, 2009 10:52am
labrator

@brian smaller Not sure where you get that the reply was sent in April. The letter from Micheal Laws is clearly dated the 27th of August 2009. I think it’s a shame he took so many months to get a poor translation done and then be so rude about it.
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September 4, 2009 11:07am
Chuck Bird

John Key will be on Radio Live with M Laws at 11:30 am to discuss the anti-parental authority law.
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September 4, 2009 11:12am
David Farrar

Cities and Knights of Catan is even better!
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September 4, 2009 11:30am
TripeWryter

Labrator:
Children, I think, recognise authority when they see it. I base that on my experiences as a child and as a parent.

Children will challenge authority, partly to see what it will do. What I found, as a parent kind of chucked into the job, is that children expect you to stand up to them. Subconsciously, they want it, because that gives them a feeling of security.

They might scream and yell and complain and cry piteously if punished, but if they know that punishment has been fair, they get over it and develop respect for you.

Even if the punishment has been unfair, I’ve found they can be very forgiving.
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September 4, 2009 11:37am
malcolm

I’m out of touch with how schools work now, but why are these kids not expelled?

I.e. This is a school. Kids come here to learn. You’re not interested in that and you’re stopping others from learning. So piss off.

Are schools forced to take these ‘people’?
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September 4, 2009 12:06pm
Kris K

malcolm 12:06 pm,

I’m out of touch with how schools work now, but why are these kids not expelled?
I.e. This is a school. Kids come here to learn. You’re not interested in that and you’re stopping others from learning. So piss off.
Are schools forced to take these ‘people’?

That’s the trouble Malcolm, schools, rather than being places of learning, are places where children are indoctrinated into political correctness, cultural sensitivity, Darwinian thought, socialist/Marxist thinking, etc. They are not taught how to think, but rather, what to think. They are conditioned to challenge all authority [of course this also includes the very teachers who teach them this crap]. And with no respect for authority, they respect neither themselves or others.

And we wonder why our kids are screwed up, disrespectful, and violent.
The answer seems self evident to those of use that had the benefit of growing up in the ‘good old days’.

[Note to PM: listen to the people John; put the power back in the hands of parents. If you don’t then the ‘blood’ of future generations of New Zealanders will be on your hands.]
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September 4, 2009 12:49pm
TripeWryter

Malcolm! Stop it! You should be BANNED!!!

You’re making far too much sense …
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September 4, 2009 12:50pm
Ryan Sproull

That’s the trouble Malcolm, schools, rather than being places of learning, are places where children are indoctrinated into political correctness, cultural sensitivity, Darwinian thought, socialist/Marxist thinking, etc. They are not taught how to think, but rather, what to think.

You are correct that they are taught what to think, not how. You’re wrong about socialism or Marxism, mainly. You show me a school in New Zealand that teaches anything besides capitalist economics in their economics classes.

They are conditioned to challenge all authority [of course this also includes the very teachers who teach them this crap].

Everyone should challenge and test every authority, and make up their own minds about it.

And with no respect for authority, they respect neither themselves or others.

And we wonder why our kids are screwed up, disrespectful, and violent.
The answer seems self evident to those of use that had the benefit of growing up in the ‘good old days’.

Plenty of other things have changed in that time. Did both of your parents work? Or did one stay home and do the job of raising the kids? That’s one big change, and I think parents have more of an impact on their kids than schools do.
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September 4, 2009 1:00pm
MikeNZ

DPF
My son and his mates agree with you on Cities and Knights.
I prefer Seafarers with a blind board with a start off isle, sometimes we allow people to join another’s road (to build onto).
Rather like transamerica, adds a wrinkle to our (non) competitiveness!

KrisK
he already has it on his hands, he made the decision and ignored us (80%) twice, what example does that send to our youth?

Malcolm
With the rules they’ve got they find it very hard to get rid of them, add to that the liberal dogma of the principals and you’ve got a lot of damaged learning environment for so many kids and desparate teachers some days.

Authority? no we must challenge all authority.I’ve got rights!
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September 4, 2009 1:26pm
MikeNZ

Brian
wheres the ferrymans?
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September 4, 2009 1:29pm
nickb

Can someone please tell me WTF is up with Gotcha?
Why did WO feel the need to end his site and team up with a bunch of randoms? Has Spondre left again now? He’s not listed as a contributor anymore.

Why would you try and fix something that wasnt broken?
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September 4, 2009 1:29pm
big bruv

Gotcha is a right fuck up, Whale had a great little site of his own, I cannot work out why he felt the need to change.

Spondre is the kiss of death.
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September 4, 2009 1:31pm
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 1:00 pm,

You are correct that they are taught what to think, not how. You’re wrong about socialism or Marxism, mainly. You show me a school in New Zealand that teaches anything besides capitalist economics in their economics classes.

Not so much economic theory, but rather the State becoming the final authority aspects of socialism/Marxism. That is, no room for God/religion.

Everyone should challenge and test every authority, and make up their own minds about it.

Whether or not that statement is true [and I believe it to be false], like our discussion yesterday, this thinking if pushed to its rational conclusion ends in anarchy. There has to be an ultimate, agreed upon authority that ‘heads’ any functional society.

Plenty of other things have changed in that time. Did both of your parents work? Or did one stay home and do the job of raising the kids? That’s one big change, and I think parents have more of an impact on their kids than schools do.

One of the benefits of growing up in the good old days: Having two [married] parents, and mum at home.
Once again, this highlights the socialist/feminist conditioning that has operated within our society since approx the 70s.
That being; transference of power away from parents, etc and onto the state. Schools have greatly enhanced this socialist conditioning of our children. And I see this as now being their primary function versus actually providing ‘real’ education. Also, schools are now set against parents inasmuch as they encourage children to report any instances of parental infractions regarding ‘child rearing’. Bradford’s Bill will/has just further pushed this bias.

I think now that it is the schools that have greater impact on children as opposed to their parents – especially if parents are weak and have been conditioned themselves into accepting socialist thinking.
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September 4, 2009 1:35pm
Angus

Gotcha is a bloody shambles alright, and as it has been well proved in the past, Spondre does indeed have a gangrenous effect on such things.
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September 4, 2009 1:36pm
Leg Break

@ MikeNZ

Ferryman’s is between NZ Post House and the Railway station. Waterloo Quay.

Pertty grotty pub if that helps.
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September 4, 2009 1:36pm
nickb

Haha yea. Shame though, WO was a good read. And didnt seem like the kind of guy that would want to share a platform with idiots either.
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September 4, 2009 1:39pm
Ryan Sproull

Not so much economic theory, but rather the State becoming the final authority aspects of socialism/Marxism. That is, no room for God/religion.

I’d agree with that. Certainly there aren’t any schools teaching that you question the authority of the state as part of their curriculum.

Whether or not that statement is true [and I believe it to be false], like our discussion yesterday, this thinking if pushed to its rational conclusion ends in anarchy.

Kris, I am an anarchist.

One of the benefits of growing up in the good old days: Having two [married] parents, and mum at home.
Once again, this highlights the socialist/feminist conditioning that has operated within our society since approx the 70s.
That being; transference of power away from parents, etc and onto the state. Schools have greatly enhanced this socialist conditioning of our children. And I see this as now being their primary function versus actually providing ‘real’ education. Also, schools are now set against parents inasmuch as they encourage children to report any instances of parental infractions regarding ‘child rearing’. Bradford’s Bill will/has just further pushed this bias.

I think now that it is the schools that have greater impact on children as opposed to their parents – especially if parents are weak and have been conditioned themselves into accepting socialist thinking.

I’d blame economic factors more than socio-political ones for the double-income family that has become the norm, but I agree that it is a step in the wrong direction.
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September 4, 2009 2:59pm
Chuck Bird

The Prime Minister has acknowledged that the current Section 59 is a complete and utter dog’s breakfast.

http://section59.blogspot.com/2009/09/section-59-is-complete-and-utter-dogs.html

He did so in an interview with Michael Laws on RadioLive at about 11:40 on Friday, 4 September.

Mr Key might be good on financial matters but he has little idea how the law should work in a democracy. He will not be Prime Minister forever. Another government might tell the police to ignore his instructions and enforce the law as it is written.

John Boscawen bill is almost identical to an amendment he was very much in favour of. If there was a referendum on keeping the existing law of going back to the original Section 59 I am sure the majority would vote for a law change. There were a handful of doubtful verdicts which the jury may have got wrong over a period of about 15 years. The law did not need changing but that is now history. Act’s John Boscawen bill is a genuine compromise and certainly a lot better than a law that the Prime Minister describes as a complete and utter dog’s breakfast.
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September 4, 2009 3:47pm
backster

KRIS:………I agree with you the letters the children were indoctrinated into writing were arrogant, poorly phrased and dis-respectful.. I would have thrown them in the rubbish tin without a reply. Mayor LAWS decided to try a little re-education instead. Good on him.
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September 4, 2009 4:09pm
philu

i just self-banned myself from red alert..

(for the record..as he will delete it..)

“..hey..lets call it a voluntary ban..eh trev..

you/yr blog..

are nothing but a sad joke..

a little echo chamber..

with only sycophantic comments allowed..?

bah..!

bye..

phil(whoar.co.nz)..”

un-fucken-believable..!
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September 4, 2009 4:56pm
Viking2

CHINA CHANGES THE CLIMATE DEBATE
http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/02/china- … edith.html
Robyn Meredith

CHINA CHANGES THE CLIMATE DEBATEhttp://www.forbes.com/2009/09/02/china- … edith.htmlRobyn Meredith

Now this will piss off the rest of them. No agreement for anything this year. Smith can go back to sleep, but he won’t he will be running around trying to fix the world as over egoed Kiwi pollies always do. Haha.
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September 4, 2009 6:16pm
Steve

Ban yourself from here too Phool, if you have the motivation.
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September 4, 2009 7:01pm
Steve

Please do not stop this stupid prick from banning himself.
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September 4, 2009 7:02pm
MikeNZ

Chuck
I don’t know where you’re based but John Boscawen is having the first of a series of meetings in Mt Roskill on Monday night at 7.30 at Hay Park School, 670 Richardson Road, Mt Roskill, Auckland.

he says ““More people voted ‘No’ within the Mt Roskill electorate than voted for Mr Goff to be their local MP. It’s time Mr Goff fronted up to the residents of Mt Roskill to explain why he is ignoring their wishes and why he thinks he knows best,” Mr Boscawen said.
“In fact, out of the 70 electoral seats in Parliament, 56 electorates had more residents vote ‘No’ in the referendum, than who voted for the MP who now represents them. I have yet to see one of those MPs fighting for a change in the law.””

Go along if you can, I’m in wtn so can’t but am letting others know.
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September 4, 2009 9:16pm
Fletch

Just a lil note to say that if you’re a sci-fi buff, the new series of Flash Gordon is playing week days on Prime at 3pm. Don’t know why they’re playing it at that time – even the kids wouldn’t be home from school yet.
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September 4, 2009 9:42pm

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