General Debate 30 September 2009

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Mr Nobody NZ

What has happened to justice in this country?

Yesterday a man is sentenced for 3 years after beating a man to death and yet five days earlier another offender is sentenced the same amount of time for defrauding Westpac of $400,000.

In the light of some other sentences of the past week which include:
5 Months Jail and 4 Months Home Dentention for Possesion of child Pornograhy (reduced from 2 years imprisonment on appeal).
12 Months for Tax evasion.
18 Months for Stabbing a teacher in front of his class.
2 years for Sex offences against 3 girls aged 5 to 8 years old between 1978 and 1988.

It seems that justice has packed up and left New Zealand and what we now have is a legal system which doesn’t offer any deterant to offenders, protection of society or redress to victims.

While the finger can be largely pointed at Judges who currently can’t be held accountable for their decisions (a situation I believe this Government needs to take steps urgent steps to change to make sure that Judges can be held to account by their local communities) it can also be pointed at the Police Prosection teams who I’ve been advised are being directed by their superiors which cases they can/cannot appeal based on budget restraints as well as having proven programs such as Diversion altered dratically so that they are effectively becoming a paper shuffling excercise where victims are completely secondary to the process.
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September 30, 2009 8:08am
Inventory2

Anyone living near the East Cape? Maybe you could give us all an eye-witness account of the approaching tsunami 😉
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September 30, 2009 8:14am
toad

On the topic of sentencing, frog points out:

Crafar Farms pleaded guilty to 56 charges of neglecting dozens of dead and dying cows at one of its Hawkes Bay farms in September 2006, but was fined just NZ$200 and allowed to continue operating, Hawkes Bay Today reported.

A $200 fine FFS! So they go and do it again.

Isn’t it time farmers who repeatedly and wilfully breach the Animal Welfare Act do some jail time.
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September 30, 2009 8:18am
XChequer

Can we start a trust fund to sponser Phil as our Tsunami correspondent? We have till 10 before it hits Gizzy so we may need a Learjet. Could be a worthy investment. 😉
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September 30, 2009 8:22am
XChequer

Just kidding Phil
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September 30, 2009 8:22am
Chicken Little

IV2 – just heading down the beach now. Taking the kids and a picnic. What could go wrong?
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September 30, 2009 8:32am
Inventory2

Make sure you’ve got your boogie boards CL – could be a fun ride
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September 30, 2009 8:34am
dad4justice

Our justice system is an appalling mess, but the likes of Justice Potter can book another holiday and sort things out in the USA when things goes bad for people closely connected to bent politicians. The stench of dysfunction is overwhelming in most kiwi courthouses as the administration of the law is served by overpaid unscrupulous officials who belong in Hollywood so they can brush up on their acting skills. This country is hindered by a retarded justice system and my advice is, take the law into your own hands when wronged. I feel sorry for the police who are continually let down by insane judges and pathetic psychologists who fester our stuffed up parole system!
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September 30, 2009 8:35am
Inventory2

Agreed dad, up to but not including the bit about taking the law into your own hands. But there’s something fundamentally wrong with a system that places such a low value on human life. The O’Brien sentence is an outrage, made worse by the 25% discount that O’Brien got for pleading guilty to an offence he was patently guilty of.
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September 30, 2009 8:45am
Inventory2

Seems like there might be a bit more to this tsunami warning than first thought, so levity might not be so appropriate. But what an interview on Breakfast between Paul Henry and Colin Feslier from Civil Defence.

Meanwhile people in Te Kaha (lovely spot that it is) have been advised to move to higher ground.
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September 30, 2009 8:48am
scanner

Little Funny to start the day

Gordon The Chicken

Trevor the farmer was in the fertilised egg business. He had several hundred young layers (hens), called ‘pullets’ and eight or ten roosters, to fertilise the pullets’ eggs.

Trevor kept records and any rooster that didn’t perform went into the soup pot and was replaced. That took an awful lot of his time so he bought a set of tiny bells and attached them to his roosters.

Each bell had a different tone so Trevor could tell from a distance, which rooster was performing. Now he could sit on the porch and fill out an efficiency report simply by listening to the 20 bells.

The farmer’s favorite rooster was Gordon, and a very fine specimen he was too, but on this particular morning Trevor noticed Gordon’s bell hadn’t rung at all!

Trevor went to investigate.

The other roosters were chasing pullets, bells-a-ringing. The pullets, hearing the roosters coming, would run for cover but to farmer Trevor’s amazement, Gordon had his bell in his beak, so it couldn’t ring.

He’d sneak up on a pullet, do his job and walk on to the next one.

Trevor was so proud of Gordon, he entered him into the London Exhibition and Gordon became an overnight sensation among the judges.

The Result?

The judges not only awarded Gordon the No Bell Piece Prize but they also awarded him the Pulletsurprise as well.
Clearly Gordon was a politician in the making: Who else but a politician could figure out how to win two of the most highly coveted awards on our planet by being the best at sneaking up on the populace and screwing them when they
weren’t paying attention.

Do you know a Politician called Gordon?
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September 30, 2009 8:49am
dad4justice

Invent2; “an eye for an eye” maybe a little over the top, but who can trust the mongrels that parade as fit and proper people to administer the law. Many judges sitting behind benches have severe addiction issues etc. etc.
The polticians are to weak and corrupt to do anything about the sad situation so it looks like the same old shit kiiw’s!
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September 30, 2009 8:51am
kaya

Civil Defence Minister John Carter is on live now obviously trying to do some damage control.
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September 30, 2009 8:55am
lofty

@mr Nobody.

A suitable obituary re justice and common sense could be this that I pinched off the internet.

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
– Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
– Why the early bird gets the worm;
– Life isn’t always fair;
– and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don’t spend
more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).
His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.

It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun
lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn’t defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded
in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.

He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
I Know My Rights
I Want It Now
Someone Else Is To Blame
I’m A Victim

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
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September 30, 2009 9:19am
Razork

Good on John Carter for showing some leadership!
Now sack that indecisive dipshit Colin as spokesman.

Blah blah blah, it’s just a rumour etc.
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September 30, 2009 9:20am
kaya

The 3 year sentence for the thug O’Brien is a total disgrace. It is an indication of where our society has gotten to when a 28 year old even considers hitting an elderly 78 year old person let alone viciously beating them and causing their death.
I am stunned by Potter’s decision. Surely she knows there will be justified public outcry over this?
There was some mention in the media that O’Brien’s family are well connected/wealthy back in the island he came from. There is a stench to this.
O’Brien had a previous history. “O’Brien has offended before. In 2001, in Dunedin, he was ordered to complete 150 hours community service for threatening to kill and for assaulting a female.”
He obviously likes his victims either frail or old the cowardly, bullying thug. If there is Karma someone in jail will deal him a bit of natural justice.
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September 30, 2009 9:22am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/who-you-callin-vegangelical/

“..“..When a vegan is talking to a meat-eater about these issues, he or she is not “preaching”, “trying to convert”, or any such thing.

We’re not telling you what to eat.

We’re telling you what you’re eating.

Veganism is the practical response to a social injustice.

Instead of vegangelical, the word should be veganlogical.

Recently I’ve heard some perplexing criticisms of veganism.

They go something like this: vegans are extremists, vegans are so preachy, veganism is like some fanatical religion, veganism is a cult..

There obviously is some misunderstanding going on and I’d like to try and stamp out this issue once and for all.

I realize I can’t possibly speak for all vegans .. but this is how I see it:

First of all, veganism is clearly not some religion or cult.

There is no Church of Vegan.

Veganism is a philosophy. Donald Watson first coined the term “vegan” in 1944.

This was how he defined it:

The word “veganism” denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; ..

.. and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment.

In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

Sounds pretty simple right?

Well, nowadays people become vegan for all different reasons.

They might go vegan because of health reasons, or perhaps they’ve read that animal agriculture is the number one cause of global warming.

But, if someone is an ethical vegan, that means they’ve chosen to open their mind and heart to the suffering of animals.

They want to alleviate unnecessary suffering where they can.

(There are actually some people who feel that unless you go vegan for ethical reasons that you’re not really “vegan”, but that’s a whole other story.)

Here’s where things get interesting.

While many of us may feel a certain attachment to the food we eat (cheese, anyone?)..

.. there is actually no human dietary requirement for animal foods.

It’s true.

You don’t need to eat meat, dairy or eggs to live.

In fact, Dr. Colin Campbell, who conducted the foremost study on human nutrition for over 40 years..

.. detailed in his book The China Study .. how a vegan diet is actually better suited for optimal human health.

This means that people eat animals not because they have to, but because they want to.

Now, of course I’m not talking about people who live in countries where food is scarce and they’ll die unless they eat animal foods.

I’m talking about you and me.

People who shop at the supermarket where tofu, beans, rice, grains, fruits and vegetables are mere feet from meat, dairy and eggs.

We have a choice.

In case you’re not up to speed, over 98% of all meat, dairy, and eggs produced in the US comes from factory farms.

The conditions in these places are truly horrendous.

Animals are crammed in spaces so tight they can’t turn around.

They literally go insane, lying around all day and night in their own feces.

They never see sunlight, have their beaks, horns and genitals cut off (without anesthetic) ..

.. and are horribly abused by stressed and desensitized farm workers.

We kill 10 billion animals for “food” a year in this country, that’s over 27 million animals a day.

Most of those animals are birds, and all poultry (chickens, turkeys, ducks, and rabbits… yes, rabbits are considered poultry under the law) are excluded from the barely enforced Humane Slaughter Act.

Now, before you start at me with some “humane meat” “happy meat” bullshit please take note that all animals..

.. whether they are raised in the nastiest of factory farms or grass-fed, free-range, blah blah blah, are all sent to the same slaughterhouses.

That’s right, your organic steer is being sent to the same hell as a downer cow .. and will meet the same ghastly end.

If you are a “humane meat” consumer, please take a moment and meditate on the whole concept of humane killing…

.. bloody, fearful, struggling, screaming, despairing humane killing.

It’s never pretty .. and it certainly isn’t “humane.”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 30, 2009 9:35am
nickb

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2915265/Housing-NZ-wins-fight-to-evict-gang-families

Good job. Why the fuck should we pay to house drug dealers and criminals, we already pay enough to keep them in jail.

What bludging wankers- the “entitlement” syndrome is startling
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September 30, 2009 9:57am
Redbaiter

Great post on Crusader Rabbit-

http://crusader-rabbit.blogspot.com/2009/09/mark-steyn-what-theyre-telling-us.html

Look at who the left hate the most, and you’ll find someone telling the truth.

Truth is what they fear the most.
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September 30, 2009 10:03am
philu

how about some ‘truth’ around about your name there..red..?

why won’t you stand behind your words/’ideas’..?

why do you hide behind an alias/fake-name..?

what are you afraid of..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 30, 2009 10:19am
Elijah Lineberry

I think Judges should not be criticised for their specific decisions.

Judges are there to be impartial and the Judge is usually the only chap in the Courtroom who has all of the facts and hands out a sentence accordingly.

A New Zealander in trouble can be threatened by Police, loudmouthed igorant people, all manner of know-it-alls but can always rely on the Judge; they do not have an axe to grind, are not seeking vengeance, will not allow uncivility to occur and rely solely on facts.

It will be a sorry day when punishments are decided either by Judges with an eye on keeping their job, or by idiotic people with a talkback caller mentality who have a view of punishment of “let’s rip him to pieces limb by limb”.

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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September 30, 2009 10:29am
dad4justice

“Judges are there to be impartial”

Yeah right Elijah, hang around a courthouse for a few years and you’ll think different matey.

Ideological judges are appointed by ideological politicians, so around and around goes the madness which is devoid of any common sense whatsoever.
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September 30, 2009 10:44am
village idiot

The National Government planned to lay off 772 teachers but backed down days before the 1106 affected schools were to be told.

THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT PLANNED TO LAY OFF 772 TEACHERS !!!

WTF!!!

OIA documents reveal that plans were so advanced that there was a communication proposal agreed on!

Tolley, you mad cow! English, Key and the rest of the Cabinet had agreed to the plans.

You arses!

Literacy and Numeracy objectives!!

You utter imbeciles!!

FFS.
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September 30, 2009 10:45am
village idiot

Do a post on THAT David.

I dare you.
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September 30, 2009 10:47am
Elijah Lineberry

Dads4Justice… most critics of Judges tend to be people who lose their cases (funnily enough the winners never criticise biased, incompetent, ideological Judges).

When you talk about ‘common sense’ you are meaning common sense as ‘you’ define it, and which perhaps serves your ends; a Judge is not meant to do such a thing, but instead to be impartial and rely on facts.

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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September 30, 2009 10:53am
toad

DPF, I see that over at the Dim Post you are backing Lindsay Mitchell’s op ed in today’s Herald on her usual topic of attacking the welfare system.

You might want to rethink your support after reading my response to it. In just two sentences she scores a hat trick for inaccuracy.
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September 30, 2009 10:57am
getstaffed

Greenfly – If you bothered to read the story (literacy problems perhaps?) you’d see that there was a plan to reduced costs, and when it became apparent that so many jobs would have been axed the plan was withdrawn.
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September 30, 2009 10:59am
Murray M

See Goff banging on about the dividend from Meridian being proof that electricity prices are too high. Were Helen still in charge would the same apply. Just about every time Goff opens his mouth he makes a f**kpig of himself.
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September 30, 2009 11:02am
MikeNZ

Vi on education.
I refer you to the previous post by lofty on Common Sense.

You’d think Tolley would have been clear right up front that she wasn’t talking/looking at feet on the ground but speculative jobs?
.
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September 30, 2009 11:11am
MikeNZ

Murray
I just scream in my head – Hypocrite! whenever Goffs name comes up.
9 years so they have no excuses.
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September 30, 2009 11:12am
getstaffed

A little reminder to the cerebrally-bypassed lefties who complain at any attempt to reign in public spending. From March 2008:-

1. Labour has had education bureaucrats grow in number by 40% compared to 12% growth of teacher numbers

2. Central Health bureaucrats up 51% while medical professionals up 28%

3. MSD policy staff have increased 109% while MSD service staff only 23%

4. Overall an increase in bureaucrats by 37%, and 1 in 50 employees in NZ is now a bureaucrat

5. Salary costs for policy departments have increased 142%

6. Government Administration has been the fastest growing sector of the economy

Labour created this appalling situation. National must fix it – and to-date they’re not doing a very good job IMO.
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September 30, 2009 11:12am
MikeNZ

Elijah
Impartial….
All the lawyers I’ve spoken to inm the last ten years say court can be a crap game depending on who you get.
BUT… they don’t want to be quoted.

Lofty’s post on common sense highlights a problem.
How can we have common sense when we don’t have common values?
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September 30, 2009 11:14am
village idiot

Getstaffed –

“The government plan involved a reversal of lower teacher-pupil ratios for new-entrant classes.
The 1:15 ratio started this year would be scrapped and returned to the previous 1:18.
Ms Tolley approved the plan, which noted that 772 full-time equivalent teaching positions would be cut on May 3.”

I’ll concede literacy problems as soon as you point out where I’ve read this wrongly.
Cheers.

Tolley is an incompetent fool. It is dangerous for our children to have her in that role. Hers would be a comedy of errors, only it’s not even slightly amusing.

Awaiting your reply.
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September 30, 2009 11:19am
side show bob

Thanks for reminding me PhilU, must go and take tonight’s steak out of the deep freeze.
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September 30, 2009 11:23am
getstaffed

Greenfly – I’ve been involved in the NZ education scene probably since you were a maggot. I can tell you with absolute certainty that teacher:pupil ratios are manipulated for public consumption. At one stage increased funding for Kohanga Reo staffing was being used to support claims of an improvement in overall teacher:pupil ratios, while the majority of NZ schools were experiencing the exact opposite.

Tolley is not a fool, and the only thing dangerous for our kids is more socialist ideology of the kind that you and your fellow travelers pedal.
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September 30, 2009 11:28am
Brian Smaller

Philu – Vega is a star approximately 25 Ly from Earth. Can you and the other Vegans please board the mothership and go home.
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September 30, 2009 11:30am
getstaffed

SSB – Or try Beer Butt Chicken.
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September 30, 2009 11:32am
CharlieBrown

I see the gov’t still has no desire to make fuel tax/road user charges fair. I see RUC has gone up 10% for small cars yet fuel tax has gone up less than 4%. Small diesels are now more eco friendly than hybrids and have a lower fuel consumption rate. The gov’t is showing that it is just a continuation of Labour. Perhaps National should adopt the name “New Labour”.
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September 30, 2009 11:52am
RightNow

You’re a fool greenfly, not worth debating the substance with you, you’re just a fool.
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September 30, 2009 12:05pm
village idiot

Getstaffed said: I can tell you with absolute certainty that teacher:pupil ratios are manipulated for public consumption.

You’d confirm then, that the manipulation of the public perception of the value of smaller class sizes that went on as soon a National took power, is just that: manipulation.

I’m surprised our paths haven’t crossed over time. I too have been involved in the NZ education scene
since Greenfly was a maggot and have had first-hand experience of classes ranging in size from 5 to 38, preschool to 80yrs plus. In my opinion, Tolley is an inexperienced fool, easily dazzled by the stupidest of concepts and proposals (evidence her latest ‘graduates in through the backdoor’ proposal).
All that not-withstanding, the issue here is the closeness we came to an stupid, ideological fuck-up from a Minister who doesn’t know what she’s doing and a Government so intent on it’s ideological ends that it emperils us all.
Do you think the near-miss, the near-loss of 772 teachers is a minor irritation and not news-worthy getstaffed? I think you are way off track.
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September 30, 2009 12:08pm
village idiot

RightNow, you’re right! Now, who does have the spine to take on the fool?
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September 30, 2009 12:10pm
virtualmark

CharlieBrown … I’m with you.

Our second car is a small modern diesel. Because it’s so fuel efficient I end up paying the equivalent of $0.63 a litre in RUC, whereas an equivalent petrol car pays about $0.45 a litre. Fair enough, RUC is something that should probably be calculated on a distance basis. But when I do that I find I’m paying 10% more per km than the equivalent petrol car.

Personally, I find LTSA the weakest link the public sector. Their ongoing inability to sort out a fair and simple approach to RUC just follows on behind “Can’t use the satnav features on a phone, but it’s okay to use a TomTom”, their inability to sort out sensible driver license standards (ours are a joke compared to most countries) etc etc.

Someone really needs to take LTSA out back and beat some common sense into them.
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September 30, 2009 12:12pm
Pete George

# MikeNZ “How can we have common sense when we don’t have common values?”

Or common expectations of what suitable punishments and deterrents are?

Most of the noise is towards increase sentences. Just about every sentencing on TV seems to be accompanied by implied support for getting tougher – they get a standard response from “Sensible” Sentencing, and try and get a response from the victim or victims family, all of which will rarely be balanced.
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September 30, 2009 12:28pm
big bruv

Greenfly accuses Tolley of being an “inexperienced fool”, while I do not agree with the permanently banned Greenfly she is entitled to her own opinion (something that would be banned under a Green government)

So let us have a look at who Greenfly would like to see as Education Minister, a quick search of the Green party website tells us that Mad Catherine Delahunty is the Green party spokesman for education.

Given that Greenfly feels Tolley is not qualified to hold her ministerial warrant I assumed that she and the Greens have a far better qualified spokesman, have a look at Mad Cath’s bio and tell me who is more qualified….

“Catherine is one of the newest Green MPs but has been high on the Greens’ list for several years, just missing getting into Parliament on several occasions.

Catherine describes herself as an “activist, feminist, mother, gardener, writer, teacher, mediator, advocate – and stand-up comic.” A political activist since her teens, she has worked for change in the areas of social justice, Te Tiriti and environmental issues. She has a history of challenging corporate polluters, and a deep interest in developing decision-making processes which involve everyone.

Catherine was born and raised in Wellington in a family involved with many social justice issues and with the arts. Catherine began her activist career aged 14 when she and her friends at Onslow College organised the first high school students union. She began leading marches, making television appearances and public speaking from that age. She left university halfway through her B.A. and moved to the Coromandel where she learned to milk goats and grow vegetables as well as throw fleeces in the only Buddhist shearing gang in New Zealand.

She resumed political activity when multinational mining companies applied to prospect the Coromandel Peninsula in 1989, co-ordinating the highly effective environmental group, Coromandel Watchdog. Her role over 15 years included media, direct action leadership, public speaking and organising. Her environmental work led to roles in the Department of Conservation and for Greenpeace as a community liaison person and toxics campaigner.

So there you go, Greenfly would rather see a person who can “throw fleeces” and “milk goats” as minister of Education.

Reason 16375 why we will NEVER see a Green government.
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September 30, 2009 12:35pm
TripeWryter

Phil:
I fully support your right to eat whatever you like.

I’d just like you to fully support my right to eat whatever I like, without feeling the added need to preach to me about whether it is good for me or not, or how terrible it is for the animals to be eaten.

Animals have no concept of hell. You only have to see that in how the cat plays with the bird or mouse it catches; how the rat eats and catches what it catches. The inflicting of pain on their victims means nothing to them. Have you seen stags goring to death a hind the troop has taken a dislike to? Or pigs eating their own young?

We do have to keep a sense of perspective: the animal world is not some kind of Bambi paradise created by Hollywood.
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September 30, 2009 12:59pm
RightNow

Greenfly you’re responding in true knee-jerk fashion to an article designed to make news where there was no news. In that respect you’re no different from the regular sheep who take at face value what they read in the paper. Clearly the ‘journalist’ needed to meet his quota and has made a feast out of something that didn’t even happen. Check out this article from MAY about the $50 million Tolley was trying to find a way to cut. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/budget-09/2458798/Fear-of-school-closures-in-wake-of-cuts

The article today uses this line to make it seem like 772 teachers were just days away from unemployment: “Education Minister Anne Tolley said last night that she backed out of the plan days before the May 28 Budget announcement”

So what did happen? The government considered ways to trim $50 million off the education budget. They considered various scenarios. They had one they were considering going with UNTIL they realised it would mean laying off teachers, SO THEY DIDN’T DO IT. What seems to be getting you all steamed up is that this took place quite close to the budget. Have you got any idea how much decision making would have taken place in the days preceding the budget? My guess is most of it. I also don’t think that’s peculiar to National, or NZ. I’d expect in any government there would be work done on the budget right up until the deadline for printing.

So the facts of this story are: Tolley considered a way to shave $50 million off the education budget. One way was restoring primary school teacher ratios from 1:15 to 1:18, and she thought that was viable (and maybe it is – not up to me though). She initially didn’t realise this would mean culling 772 existing FTE’s. She found out prior to the budget that it would, and she changed the plan.

4 months later greenfly reads a crap story by a crap journalist and starts buzzing about how bad Tolley is.
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September 30, 2009 1:08pm
village idiot

Big Bruv – with Sue Bradford gone, you’ve switched your obsession to Catherine Delahunty and no-one begrudges that. You need something to keep your pecker up, it’s clear.

You’ve not, however, addressed the issue of Tolley’s incompetence at all.

I suspect you know she’s daft. I suspect also, that you know you are on shakey ground engaging me in real debate and choose instead to describe what you imagine I think. I’m not at all surprised that you haven’t mentioned the issue being discussed (the 772 teachers that were to be laid off and Tolley’s extremely poor grasp of the proposal along with the Cabinet and Key’s support for the lay-offs). Don’t expect to hear a squeak from you Big Bruv, about that.

Eh!
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September 30, 2009 1:10pm
philu

‘tripewryter’..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 30, 2009 1:11pm
Johnboy

Maybe that was billy goats she was milking, there is a name for that. Its the same name that qualifies you to be a greenie MP.
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September 30, 2009 1:19pm
village idiot

RightNow – you don’t think that Tolley’s misreading of the nub of the issue – that 772 teachers would lose their jobs, is a sign of incompetence? The ‘communication proposal’ had even been agreed on ffs! The Cabinet had given their blessing to the move!! This is shonky stuff, RightNow. Tolley says, “I take full resonsibility. It was my error and it was my decision. ”

The ‘communication proposal’ mapped out ways to “help minimise concerns” and stop schools from sabotaging the new national standards in protest.

Sounds like she expected big trouble.

This is not good managment. This was a close call. What a weak minister she is.
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September 30, 2009 1:20pm
big bruv

Greenfly (permanently banned)

You are right, I have never been in any doubt that Delahunty is “daft”.

As I said to you last night Greenfly (permanently banned) I am more than happy to engage in debate, I am also pleased to see that you have managed to write more than one or two lines in reply.

Now, could you please tell me why you think Mad Cath Delahunty is better qualified to be minister of Education?
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September 30, 2009 1:23pm
getstaffed

Bruv, DPF has retracted his permanent ban:

Greenfly – 1 week ban until 25 April 2009 and them permanent for impersonating DPF despite explicit warning to stop. Permanent ban lifted Sep 2009 as user has been generally posting okay as Village Idiot.

So permanent stays that way until the perp comes back in disguise, kinda behaves and then is unmasked. We’ll get the Sensible Sentencing Trust on to you DPF !!

[DPF: He is on parole shall we say]
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September 30, 2009 1:28pm
TripeWryter

I’ve read Lindsay Mitchell’s column in the Herald.

Most men and women on the DPB usually range in age from their late 20s to early 50s.

Perhaps half of them are parents who have been left holding the babies by a spouse or partner who had baled out of the marriage or relationship.

Teen-age girls have always been a minority in DPB statistics. I know that because for years I used to get the statistics from the social welfare agency.

Unlike Lindsay Mitchell, and a good many others, I can talk from experience. I did not go on the DPB because I thought it was a good way to live. I gave up a $45,000-a-year job in the mid-80s so that my kids might have a future.

Ruth Richardson and Jennifer Shipley tried to fix a moral and social problem by using an economic means: cutting benefits.

Despite that the solo parent roll grew.

Beneficiary-bashing is easy. Solo parents (especially solo mothers) are easy targets. Teen-age solo mothers and Maori girls are the best – they usually can’t hit back.

In a perfect world, we should not need the DPB. Men and women would marry and stay together and raise their families together, and not go off with the popsie down the road or the guy next door.

But it’s not a perfect world. And sometimes, when the whole shebang falls over and someone has to hold the babies, the DPB is the only lifeline you’ve got.

I can tell you from experience that not every child from a beneficiary family goes on to be a beneficiary.
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September 30, 2009 1:30pm
village idiot

Re being banned. If there’s one thing I admire Mr Farrar for, it’s his ability to forgive.

Bruv – your question re Catherine is a nonsense. Had I said that I thought she was better, I’d explain why. You’re making it up. Debate real things. My argument is that Tolley is a very poor minister. Bruv – can you tell me why you think that she is not what I say?
Gotta go and work (outside, in the rain) but I’m looking foward to your on-topic response.
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September 30, 2009 1:35pm
RightNow

Greenfly, Tolley is quoted as saying: “The minute I realised that we were actually talking about people on the ground, I immediately sought advice and talked to both the minister of finance and the Prime Minister. None of us would countenance that.”
Damn those wimpy liberal hand-wringers, they should have just gone ahead and done it anyway. Everything was in place, they had the communication proposal and cabinet blessing and everything. They could have been saving us money right now! Right Now!!

So don’t really expect me to believe that almost cutting $50 million off the budget was a bad thing, the bad thing was NOT cutting $50 million off the budget.

Buzz buzz eh?
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September 30, 2009 1:37pm
Elijah Lineberry

The DPB is far too easy to get, allows people to opt out of responsibilities, is too easy to stay on, sees the money spent by recipients on the wrong things, kills the work ethic, kills the ability to show ‘self control’ and should be abolished.

If some people are unable to use a condom, get married, get a job and arrange childcare and be decent members of the community that is their problem and ‘normal’ people should not be required to pay for their lack of values.

Marriage, thrift, personal responsibility are the alternatives to the DPB

http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
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September 30, 2009 1:41pm
big bruv

Greenfly

I am surprised that you cannot come up with one single reason why Mad Cath Delahunty would be a better minister of education.

You had better come up with one soon or Toad will be forced to race in here and defend Mad Cath.
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September 30, 2009 1:45pm
village idiot

Bruv – as expected, your response doesn’t even mention Tolley. Makes me smile, remembering that your BIG gripe about me is that I don’t debate the question asked. Funny. Second point, Bruv, I can’t help but notice that you like to attach a demeaning tag to those you don’t like; Comrade Bradford, Mad Delahunty etc. Would our debates flow more smoothly if I was to do the same: Slack-jaw Tolley, for example? Slack-jaw Tolley, every time I mention her? Just and observation (and a question).

I expect you’ll continue to bray about Delahunty, Bruv, but really, that’s your own wee obsession and I can’t help you with that.

RightNow – Tolley should never have been near a mistake like that. She doesn’t know the field she has been assigned well enough to manage it. She’s a very poor minister. She’s made a number of blunders already, most under the radar but well known to those in the education field.
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September 30, 2009 2:43pm
RightNow

Get over it greenfly. She’s there, tough luck.
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September 30, 2009 2:55pm
village idiot

You’re right. She is, it is.
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September 30, 2009 3:21pm
village idiot

RightNow

Seems I’m not alone in my condemnation of Tolley.

http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/09/30/chopper-tolley-her-neck-on-the-block/#comments
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September 30, 2009 3:28pm
village idiot

If you can link me to a supportive site, where Tolley’s actions on this issue are supported, I’d be happy to read and learn.
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September 30, 2009 3:30pm
RightNow

Why greenfly? Does it matter what you think to anyone except your fellow travellers? You linking to a Red Alert post carries as much weight as Redbaiter posting a link on greenvoices to a Rush Limbaugh comment. Now for myself I’d think it was a low point of my existence if I ended up spending my day posting incitive comments on lefty blogs. Just what is it you find so compelling about posting your crap on kiwiblog?
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September 30, 2009 3:55pm
Oscars Grouchy Mum

I agree with you RightNow.

I would also add that from a political point of view a weak and ineffective Minister is not worth attacking by an Opposition. So if Labour are trying to put Tolley’s head on the chopping block – it would indicate that they see her as a potential threat.
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September 30, 2009 4:27pm
village idiot

OCM – from your comment:

from a political point of view a weak and ineffective Minister is not worth attacking

can we assume that all of the other National MPs that are not being attacked, are weak and ineffective?

Tolley is worse than hopeless. I believe that we will see a huge implosion around her before very long.

RightNow – I didn’t expect you to thrill to the Red Alert post and won’t cite them again to you. I’m genuinely surprised that you are defending Tolley in this instance, or at all in fact. You and I view her very differently. Does it disturb you to hear an opinion that doesn’t support your own? Otoh, as you say, she’s there, tough luck. Only I think it’s tough luck for us all.
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September 30, 2009 4:50pm
big bruv

I cannot see what Tolley has done wrong, how could anybody consider 772 teachers losing their jobs to be a bad thing?
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September 30, 2009 4:57pm
big bruv

“Tolley is worse than hopeless.”

You just cannot take that comment seriously given the author’s own party includes Keith Locke, Mad Catherine Delahunty and Sue Bradford.
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September 30, 2009 5:00pm
village idiot

Big Bruv said: how could anybody consider 772 teachers losing their jobs to be a bad thing?
(just in case anyone missed it)

Big Bruv. You’ve been completely unable to refute my claims about Tolley, defend her in any way or mount any argument at all in her defence. Your only effort has been to warble “Locke, Delahunty, Bradford”. Do you see this as a victory in the debate?
Not that I care one whit, but it makes your accusations re my ‘lack of engagement in debate’ look ridiculous. Guess it’s back to pot-shots, Bruv!

Thar she…
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September 30, 2009 5:19pm
Oscars Grouchy Mum

No – making an ass of yourself.

But an opposition will put a concerted effort into ministers that they fear most.
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September 30, 2009 6:07pm
village idiot

OCM – I suspect you are right. Most MPs, including many in National, fear Tolley and her hapless, unpredictable behaviour. Most nervous, will be those MPs with children who go to school. Tolley will be sending shivers down their spines.
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September 30, 2009 6:14pm
Johnboy

“OCM – I suspect you are right. Most MPs, including many in National, fear Tolley and her hapless, unpredictable behaviour. Most nervous, will be those MPs with children who go to school.”

God Prize, I’m dumb I thought that for ‘National’ it should be ‘Labour’ for ‘Tolley’ it should be ‘Carter’ for ‘her’ it should be ‘it’s’.

The rest of your statement—-“Most nervous, will be those MPs with children who go to school.” Is OK.
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September 30, 2009 6:19pm
jabba

the reds are trying to start up a thread about the Nat Ministers performing poorly getting sacked at the end of the year. There maybe some changes and in some cases that would be good. The thing they are missing is that their stocks are REALLY thin. The muss is still the bully boy, Carter has lost the plot .. he is picked on because he is gay!!, King hates hot summers, Goff is destined to be shafted, even the Party dislike Cunnliffe, Dyson .. hic, Parker is a sad sight even his bald spot is off center, Hodgson is a skinny Mallard who is his co assasin as he has no other skill .. time to return to being a vet and then there are the young ones who must be concerned that they have joined a party who play the man/woman and not the ball.
Oh, I forgot poor old Cosgrove who gets bitch slapped by the Crusher on a daily basis
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September 30, 2009 7:32pm
Johnboy

And they are are all shit scared of Little Handy Andy and his henchman Flattarse. 🙂
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September 30, 2009 7:36pm
jabba

he is like jaws, circling ready to pounce .. IPREDICT .. oppps, bad use of a “word” there .. the Andrew will attack mid to late next year.
Everytime I see him, I can hear that hauntning music from the movie .. I’m sure everybody remembers it
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September 30, 2009 8:07pm
big bruv

Greenfly

What is there to refute?

You called Tolley and idiot, I asked you why, you have not be able to come up with a reason beyond “cos I said she was”.

As far as I can see Tolley has done nothing wrong, if it means there are a few hundred pissed of teachers then I am all for it, we did not hear a peep out of the teachers for nine years when their party was in power, now the Nat’s have the treasury benches they start to make some noise.

When teachers agree to performance pay and national standards I will start to give a fuck what they have to say, until then they can shut the fuck up.

Come to think of it…….so can you.
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September 30, 2009 8:13pm
village idiot

Big Bruv – you say you asked my why I called Tolley ‘an idiot’ (in fact you said “and idiot” but, whatever).

Here’s my solemn pledge Bruv. If you can paste in the comment where you asked me that question, I’ll disappear from here permanently never to return under any guise.

To spice up the challenge, I’ll call you for lying. You didn’t ask me that question Big Bruv. How on earth can I answer a question if it wasn’t asked. Remember, find it and I’m history. Fail and you prove yourself a liar.
Good luck.
Greenfly
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September 30, 2009 8:31pm
big bruv

So that is what a raw nerve looks like aye Greenfly.

Mind you, it is great to see you contributing more than one or two lines per post, keep it up Comrade.

Here is a hint, look a bit closer….
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September 30, 2009 8:36pm
philu

ooh..!..bruv..!

you’ve been bitch-slapped..!

telling porkies..?..again..?

eh..?

when will you ever learn..?

when will you ev-er learn..?

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 30, 2009 8:41pm
Tauhei Notts

Side Show Bob at 11.23.
Might I suggest that the steak you remove from the deep freeze be left to thaw out in the fridge. Then by Friday it should be attacked with a real good bottle of merlot. Don’t be a cheapskate and get some of that supermarket yuccky stuff. Merlot? Yes, I find the cabernet sauvignon just a little too harsh, unless drunk with a curry meal.
I have found that frozen steak is best thawed, over several days in the fridge. The thought occurred to me that Philu had become vegan after frequently trying steak that had been thawed too quickly. And women become lesbians after liaisons with Toad.
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September 30, 2009 9:01pm
reid

VI, there’s a world of difference between:

“You called Tolley and [BTW you] idiot…”

and

“You called Tolley an idiot…”

Isn’t the mighty English Language just fucking great in every way, by hokey?

My point is, I have no idea what your fight is with BB, but since that’s a helluva big semantic diff in those two phrases, I’d predict you’re fucked before you start.
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September 30, 2009 9:47pm
village idiot

reid – good spotting! Completely wrong, but nice little parse there!

Perhaps you’d like to help a Bro out then. Paste in Bruvs’s comment where he asks me why I “called Tolley”
and I’ll be, as you so elegantly said, fucked, and out of here for all time.

I’m kinda excited by the prospect out being outwitted. I’ll apologise to Bruv to boot!
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September 30, 2009 10:23pm
getstaffed

Tauhei – Agree about Merlot if steak is quite ‘untainted’… but if it’s tarted up a bit (pepper, aged herb salts etc) then bigish cab sav is the business – I like anything from Margaret River on that front.
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September 30, 2009 10:31pm
Luc Hansen

Let’s get away from ad hominem attacks for a moment and consider this:

We are keen on democracy, and most here were enthusiastic about the “pro-smacking” referendum, so do we agree that when 70% of US citizens, according to all major pollsters, approve a public option (ie a Govt alternative to private insurance along the lines of the very popular Medicare for the retired) and the President has promoted that option during his campaign, that it should come to pass?

But it seems the health lobby is so strong that Obama may NOT be presented with a bill containing the public option even though his own party has a majority in both houses of Congress.

The US is a weird country!

Oh, and Israel is now threatening the Palestinian Authority with withholding permission for a badly needed second cellphone facility unless it withdraws its war crimes complaint laid with the ICC.

Now why is Israel so desperate to NOT present their side in the world’s pre-eminent court?
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September 30, 2009 10:32pm
noskire

My point about WTC7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv7BImVvEyk earlier this week.
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September 30, 2009 10:55pm
noskire

And this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXD3bAbZCow&NR=1
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September 30, 2009 11:15pm
Hurf Durf

70% of US citizens, according to all major pollsters, approve a public option

Where are you getting this from? It’s 40% approve, 50% disapprove at the moment. Public option is dead in the water, along with emissions trading. Of course, it wouldn’t have been if he just rammed it through in July or if he was just a better politician. What I find surprising is the way Obama continues to support that thug Manuel Zelaya in the face of the facts.

wah wah wah Israel

We know.
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September 30, 2009 11:30pm
pdm

I see I have been placed on a warning at Red Alert for roughly the following comment on Mallards attack on Kate Wilkinson for not solving the Cheese factory dispute. I said:

`If the solution is so easy why don’t you get your arse down there this weekend instead of going to Taupo’.

May not be 100% verbatim but is pretty close.

Is it normal for a comment like this to be called abuse and to be warned/suspended at Red Alert?
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September 30, 2009 11:30pm
Hurf Durf

I stayed up till 3.46am last night to watch Gordo Brown’s speech to the Liarbore faithful. I dunno why I bothered, it was the biggest load of lies I’ve heard. The man wants to cure cancer, for God’s sake.
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September 30, 2009 11:43pm

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