General Debate 23 September 2009

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village idiot

Mongrel Mob takes Round One

Laws must be spewing this morning. The ‘test case’ for his fashion police has gone the Mob’s way, thanks to some fast talkin’ from the wearer of the offending clobber – a beanie (a beanie!!) emblazoned/embroidered with an image of a bulldog – enough to get you arrested in Whanganui (for whuks sake!), or as in this case, arrested then released! It’s not a mob dog, the mobster claimed, it’s the logo of Georgia University! Mr Beamsley said, following his release, ‘As soon as I get it back again I’m straight to town to see if they arrest me again’!
Laws, through gritted teeth and over spew-specked chin said,
‘It’s a simple error and I’ve been assured it won’t happen again and I’ve accepted that assurance”.

Oh joy!

*( lifted from the pond)
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September 23, 2009 8:11am
CraigM

World leaders continue their “do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do” meetings in NY.

Haven’t hese people ever heard of Skype?

Seriously,… video conferencing? Web enabled conferencing?

Leaders, by definition, lead. Where is the leadership? where is the leading by example?

160 world leaders flying around the world to join in on a talk fest, mainly to talk about how to extract more coin from our pockets, does not help the planet in any way.

Farcical.
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September 23, 2009 8:13am
Ross Miller

Ok, being a bit cheeky and if I have transgressed I now submit myself to a good rollicking by David (no spanking mind you).

If you care to go to TradeMe and bid on item 243512409 then you will be forever in my good books.

I am donating the proceeds to the Ex-Vietnam Services Association (Neville Wallace Memorial) Children’s & Grandchildren’s Trust which I am privileged to Chair. The Trust helps the offspring of Kiwi Vietnam Veterans realize their dreams.

You may care to visit our website at http://www.evsayouthtrust.co.nz
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September 23, 2009 8:27am
Ryan Sproull

That’s http://www.evsayouthtrust.org.nz/
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September 23, 2009 8:31am
Redbaiter

“Americans are overwhelmingly angry at the U.S. government and is nearly as let down by the lack of ideas from both political parties, a new poll by Rasmussen Reports revealed Tuesday.

Sixty-six percent of voters in a national poll said they’re angry at the policies of the federal government, including 36 percent who counted themselves as very angry.”

Meanwhile, in good old land of the long white shroud, where we’re even more up socialist shit creek with John Obama Key at the wheel, its gormless knuckle dragging submission as usual…

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/22/poll-americans-angry-feds/?test=latestnews

What does it take to make some people awake from their lethargy??

(hat tip http://crusader-rabbit.blogspot.com/ )
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September 23, 2009 8:37am
getstaffed

This paper – Climate Money – is worth a read, particularly for anyone who is publicly worshiping at the climate change alter while privately wondering why.
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September 23, 2009 8:40am
Ross Miller

Brian S … thank you. Senior moment.
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September 23, 2009 8:53am
stephen

Victoria University associate law professor Elisabeth McDonald said the key issue for the court to determine would be whether the Georgia University bulldog was “commonly displayed” to represent the Mongrel Mob.

Not as simple an issue as they thought, how about that.
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September 23, 2009 8:53am
Brian Smaller

Brian S … thank you. Senior moment.

That was Ryan. We are almost identical twins apparently but there are a few differences.
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September 23, 2009 9:10am
Auberon

Has Cam Slater, aka Whaleoil (Gotcha), flown too close to the wind this time with his arguable breach of a suppression order? http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2009/09/22/of-rugby-balls-and-mileage/
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September 23, 2009 9:33am
mattyroo

And the fuckwits at the Herald are cheering how great the Cullen superfund is, now that it has reached a record high…..

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10599034

But no intelligent dissemination of the numbers….. It has achieved annualised returns of a whopping 2.8%, fuck me spare, 2.8%! They would have been better to leave it under a mattress.

In the last few months I am achieving gains of well over 400%, and looking at annualised gains of over 1000%…. All the while our resident financial forecaster, Philu, has been predicting worldwide financial meltdown.

Imagine if that money had been left in the taxpayers pocket, the productivity of the country and associated increase in our GDP would far have outstripped the lousy $420 million in returns thus far.
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September 23, 2009 9:36am
Tauhei Notts

I read where Michael Laws criticised the N.Z. Herald’s token Whaka Blond.
With a name like Yvonne she could be Alain Mafart’s love child.
But to criticise a journalist brings out the pack instinct in that shoddy species of mankind.
Boy, oh boy, they have left no stone unturned in any way to denigrate Mr Laws.
To all you Herald writers; I’ll tell you one advantage of living in Wanganui that you do not have in Auckland and that is
“home delivery of a decent morning newspaper.”
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September 23, 2009 9:43am
joe90

That wasn’t hard was it Auberon, and yes, young master Whale looks to be sailing very close to the wind.
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September 23, 2009 9:48am
malcolm

Redbaiter wrote:

“Americans are overwhelmingly angry at the U.S. government and is nearly as let down by the lack of ideas from both political parties, a new poll by Rasmussen Reports revealed Tuesday.

Sixty-six percent of voters in a national poll said they’re angry at the policies of the federal government, including 36 percent who counted themselves as very angry.”

Rasmussen Reports?? Mere knuckle dragging drones for the global Neo-Marxist plot to subjugate the world under their crushing socialist world-view. A survey of 1000 people? Pffff! A moronic plot hatched by their treacherous socialist swine overlords. A real survey would have revealed the truth. A truth the sycophantic and splineless MSM could never publish: “100% of Americans are Really Furious at U.S. Government and Want Obama Hussein Sent Back to Africanistan.”

RedBaiter, I thought you of all people would be able to spot this deceitful propaganda.
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September 23, 2009 10:36am
Ross Miller

I don’t want to comment on WhaleOils post except to say that I am uncomfortable with supression orders which leave every member of a very small group (in this case ex-MPs) under a cloud of suspicion.

Surely the point of a supression order is to give the accused time to inform his/her immediate family or when publication might not be in the wider public interest (although the latter does not sit well with me) … or am I missing something?
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September 23, 2009 10:40am
Leg Break

@Auberon,

The funniest thing about that Whaleoil link is that he makes such a dead obvious clue and still people don’t get it….
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September 23, 2009 10:44am
tom hunter

VirtualMark

In response to your comments the other day.

There are some points I can agree with. The idea that China is the key to North Korea, rather the US president, let alone the nonsense of the six-nation agreements. The ever present possibility Iraq could devolve. The futility of trying get the European countries to commit to anything, given the lack of any external threat that they believe in, their growing internal problems, and their generally disdainful approach to anything that smacks of foreign policy action (let alone military action).

Of particular concern to us here in NZ is the no-win scenario that has been present in Afghanistan since day one – and yet another example of where Obambi is proving to be less than useful, as this clip explains.

I have an issue less with your specific analysis than with the whole ethos that underpins it. That of realpolitik.

Geopolitics is driven by geography, not by party politics.

I think that is far too simplistic. Ideology is a huge driver, perhaps more so now in our world than ever before (despite all the “end-of-history” claptrap), and that can certainly extend beyond party politics.

It seems to me that your approach simply drags us back to the amoral world of Kissinger and Nixon:

What I’ve learnt is that Governments like the US have (i) far more information to hand than we do, and (ii) far more complex trade-offs to make than we appreciate.

There’s an element of appealing to authority there that rather clashes with your opposition to the Iraq war. My attitude is that the difference lies less in the information to hand than in the interpretation of it and the debates over the actions to be taken.

What looks like stupid decisions often turns out to be the best of a less-than-stellar range of options.

Indeed, and I do not engage in the usual bashing of the realpolitik of the Cold War for that reason. People like Nixon, Ike and the rest, made some shitty, amoral decisions that were of the “least worst” variety; things like supporting Taiwan and South Korean at a time when they were police states virtually indistinguishable from their counterparts in Communist China or North Korea.

But that was in the days when global thermonuclear war was a very distinct possibility. I don’t think that we should accept such decisions now for the sake of supposedly sophisticated “geopolitical chess games”. Frankly that attitude pisses me off. It’s not that I refuse to accept that such “games” exist, or that there are often nasty realities should be ignored. But I think that cold-blooded calculations of power should be held to be no more important, and perhaps less important, than pushing all of humanity towards greater liberty.

There is a difference between accepting that some things are not going to be practical to effect (…China must hold multi-party elections NOW), and simply rolling over and allowing ugly things to happen. Your comments on Russia most certainly fall into that category and I’ll try and address those points later.
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September 23, 2009 10:49am
Redbaiter

“RedBaiter, I thought you of all people would be able to spot this deceitful propaganda.”

Malcolm- feeble, predictable and witless attempts at ridicule have long ago worn thin as the left’s standard response to criticism.
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September 23, 2009 10:55am
virtualmark

tom … as a simple example … if you were the POTUS what would you do about Iran? What are your options and what would you choose to do?

Firstly, I think you’ll find that there are no options that are “Democrat” or “Republican”.

And secondly, I think you’ll find that all your options are mainly constrained by geographic realities – such as Iran’s position on the Straits of Hormuz, Russia’s ability to send gasoline to Iran via the Caucasus (ie where you can’t blockade it), Iran’s ability to strongly influence how easy a ride you have in Iraq and Afghanistan, your need to placate Israel (where geography puts them within missile range of Iran) etc etc.
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September 23, 2009 10:56am
CraigM

“The funniest thing about that Whaleoil link is that he makes such a dead obvious clue and still people don’t get it….”

I think it is more likely to be that no one outside the political junky fraternity will remember him…..or give a toss.

It will be interesting to see if Whale gets harpooned over this. (sorry, couldn’t help it)

I can’t see how he could argue with “….or cause to be identified…” he may as well have just written the guys name his pics were that obvious. It really is a two fingered salute to the supression order.
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September 23, 2009 11:05am
malcolm

Redbaiter,

I’m serious. Those Rasmussen rabble-rousers are corrupt. You need to scrutinise these sources. There are so many lies out there and some of these operatives are cunning. Real cunning. They twist and turn and misrepresent. Like spineless worms.
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September 23, 2009 11:12am
virtualmark

tom … I do agree with you about Afghanistan. I am quite happy to see us commit our military to campaigns where there’s a clear objective and a clear exit strategy. But I object to us putting our servicepeople’s lives at risk for poorly defined objectives which can arguably never be achieved, and which still see us having a (moral) obligation to hang around indefinitely with no ability to exit.

I recognise we have to do our bit in international coalitions like this – there’s a realpolitik aspect about needing to continually show our commitment to our Western allies. But I do think we should clearly setting out that we will be withdrawing our troops soon, and be firm in not sending any more. Not until we can be sure that there’s a mission there that’s worth putting their lives at risk.

Personally I think that Afghanistan is a f%*#d up country which is beyond all practical efforts to drag it into the 20th century let alone the 21st century. Most of Africa seems to be full of f%*#d up countries too. I know there’s a lot of tragic personal stories in those places which tug on our heart strings. But those stories are only tragic when you look at them through Western values and mores. The local values and mores tend to be more of a shrug your shoulders and that’s the way life is kind of thing. Until that changes I suggest those places are beyond real assistance.
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September 23, 2009 11:19am
tom hunter

VM

Woah – you’re quick off the mark. I thought you were absent.

Anyhoo, you did ask that question of me several days ago and I did not then have time to answer. So here goes…..

I think I should start with your comment here:
The key to Iran is not with Obama or with George, it’s with Russia

I think that is the main point of difference between our two world views. In my view the key to Iran is it’s own people, not Russia or anybody else

All the energies of the US should be bent towards weakening the regime until the people themselves can overthrow it. To that end I would engage in the following actions.

First, I would not hedge in my statements about the Iranian regime. I would get stuck into them using the “bully pulpit” of POTUS in the same way that Reagan got stuck into the USSR and Polish governments in 1981. Rather than wallowing around in some sort of pathetic moral equivalence or reaching for some type of mini-détente, I would adopt the same attitude that Reagan expressed to Richard Allen – “We win, they lose”.
That would undoubtedly horrify the State Department and be regarded as no way to conduct diplomacy. There would be claims that this would make it easier for the regime to demonise its opposition, and play the external threat card. That it is racheting up the risk of war. On their face those are substantial arguments, but the thing is that it is exactly what I heard almost 30 years ago about Reagan’s approach to the USSR and whether they were true or not turned out to be irrelevant. It is equally irrelevant now – the Iranians are making exactly those claims anyway and it is hard for me to see that the Iranian people could be demonised by their own “leaders” any more than they already have been. In short, the USA will always be the boogeyman anyway.

Second, I would make it clear that Iran would face the harshest, possible sanctions if they continue with any of their current actions: the nuclear weapons programme, the sponsoring of terrorism around the world, and the links with Chavez, Syria and North Korea.
I would also make it privately clear to China and Russia that we were in deadly earnest about enforcing such sanctions by military means if necessary. In short, that the US would be willing to shoot up any transport system on the Iranian border that was shipping petrol or weapons to Iran. I would also make it clear to them – privately – that such efforts to use Iran as a stick with which to beat the US would result in unfortunate events such the Federal Reserve perhaps printing another trillion dollars (China) and new and improved ABM’s being deployed back to Poland (Russia) –and with both countries perhaps the suggestion that the US in future will be a little less forthcoming on information about Islamic terrorist activities uncovered that are not aimed directly at it.
In other words, force them to play some realpolitik and make a judgement as to whether supporting a pissant state like Iran is worth the cost of their relationships with the US. The current stance by Obama just means the Chinese and Russians will smile a little more broadly, provide just enough sustenance to the Mullahs to keep them going, and enjoy the US wriggling in the spotlight, taking the casualties and the poor press.

Third, I would move to assure the Israelis, publicly so that all Iranians know it, that they are not alone in facing the Iranian regime, and then leave the details of that support vague. The Iranians might doubt Israeli ability to take out their nuclear sites and they would certainly be confident about winning a war of insurgency against the US – but I think they would be far less certain about defeating a sudden, one-time, conventional strike. Unfortunately this is a game of bluff and I don’t think Obama can play it – or that he even wants to.
That’s the paradox. The worst, possible thing that could be done would be to allow a nation, with 200 nuclear weapons, to think that it it is alone in facing Iran. That would actually vastly increase the likelihood of war – and frighteningly I think that this is exactly what Obama has done. He’s actually fucked up the Arab-Israeli deal to a greater degree than ever by losing the trust of almost every Israeli (he’s even managed to make bloody Netanyahu popular across party lines) and also showing the Arab countries that he can’t deliver on all his grand promises, precisely because he made such a public show of trying to knuckle Israel.
Right now I think there is a better than even chance that Israel will hit Iran’s nuclear facilities, and we have the evidence of the Osirak and Syrian strikes as evidence of Israeli resolve. I think those odds are increasing every single day that passes where Obamba’s diplomacy fails to produce concrete, verifiable results.

Fourth, I would make it privately clear to the Iranian military leaders – rather than the Mullahs – that the US has the technological means to deal with their implied threats on the Straits of Hormuz and elsewhere. All the guff I read about the Iranian military sounds exactly like the crap that was spread in the West about the awesome Arab armies of the 1960’s and 70’s, the Iraqis in 1991 and even again in 2003. It’s always the same quantitative stuff – that they have thousands of modern weapons (tanks, planes, misslies, take your pick) – and it has always ended the same way, with those armies defeated and damn near destroyed by Western militaries.
The reason has always been the same; there is more to a military than weapons; that training, planning, command and control, and judgement in the heat of battle count as much, if not more. Armies of poorly trained draftees led by an arrogant, brutal officer class or inspired by religious fanaticism can cause damage but they tend to lose badly and permanently. About the only thing Arab (or Persian) armies are ever good for is internal suppression or fighting eachother top bloody stalemate.

It could be argued that all of this is risky and it is. But I think the outcomes would fall far short of outright war and the end result – the overthrow of the Mullahs would be to everyone’s advantage, even if a couple of the players don’t see it that way at present.
Right now the US is playing a losing game, with people imagining that Predator strikes will win the day, backstopped by endless negotiations with the primary source of strength, a source that sees no reason to change tack.
It seems to me that the Iranians, subtly backed by the Chinese and Russians, are steadily bleeding the US to death in numerous ways, not in quantitative fashion but in terms of societal confidence. The US can either sit back and allow this to continue or do what Western nations have often done – confront the problems directly and bring them to resolution quickly.

In that respect at least there are indeed no “Democrat” or “Republican” options – but the current incarnation of the Democrats is fully enamored of touchy-feely, “can’t-we-all-get-along”, soft-headedness, while the Republicans seem to be once again flirting with their ever-present isolationist tendencies.
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September 23, 2009 12:47pm
Chuck Bird

“Economic Debate – Friday 25 September, Mecca Cafe, 5:30pm”

“The global financial crisis proves the free market is unreliable – we need more government intervention to grow New Zealand’s economy.”

Moderator: Dr Don Brash
Featuring Professor Tim Hazledine (University of Auckland), Bernard Hickey (interest.co.nz), and Peter Conway (Council of Trade Unions)

Organised by supporters of the ACT Party
Everyone welcome – it is a debate, after all!
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September 23, 2009 12:53pm
side show bob

I see one of the head noddys at the IPCC is now saying that the world will probably cool or there will be very little overall rise in temperature in the next few years, then there will be a shift upwards in average temperature. I wish these pricks would make their minds up, do I sell the cows and buy camels. No wonder these bastards are in such a hurry to sign up the punters, the odds against them pulling off this con are growing by the day.
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September 23, 2009 12:58pm
freethinker

Auberon (344) Vote: 5 1 Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 9:33 am

Must be having a Blond Day – I cannot see how/where WhaleOil has overstepped the mark although some of the comments look like they are getting close. Can you illuminate my dark room on this please ?
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September 23, 2009 1:37pm
getstaffed

Just learned that Metiria Turei, Russel Norman and Keith Locke will be cycling in the Taupo Cycle Challenge.

I expect they’ll all sit at the back of the bunch letting other riders do all the work. Would seem to be their style.

Shame that Delahunty hasn’t entered. The slightest prospect of her singing would have me pedaling a whole lot faster!
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September 23, 2009 3:56pm
big bruv

Hmmm

I am also doing the Taupo cycle challenge, I hope I don’t “accidentally” crash into any of those Greenies.
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September 23, 2009 4:06pm
big bruv

Yawn….

The country is slowly coming out of recession and all that Comrade Bradford can do is call for an immediate increase in the minimum wage.
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September 23, 2009 4:07pm
racer1

Coming out of a recession so soon is going to be problematic for the right if the progress carries on. On one hand they want to praise Key for his economic management, but since we are unlikely to come out of the recession (in a proper sense, rather than by definition) until the USA does, they want it to continue on until Obama’s two terms are up, so that he cannot claim credit for fixing it. What to do?
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September 23, 2009 4:15pm
big bruv

Racer

“until Obama’s two terms are up”

Ha ha ha ha.

B Hussein Messiah Obama is a ONE term POTUS, get used to the idea.
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September 23, 2009 4:34pm
village idiot

Big Bruv on a bike! In lycra? Preserve us from that sight Bruv!
You’ll be fit though, with all the back-peddling you’ve done over the years!
I hear your girlfriend is joining the cycle challenge, now that she’s read you’re pulling on the stretchy pants.
Sue’ll be right on your tail Bruv, giving your little pink cheeks a squeeze, every time you start to fade.
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September 23, 2009 4:56pm
Hurf Durf

The UN meet must have been shite so far. I haven’t heard any massive fawning from the media.
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September 23, 2009 6:00pm
racer1

“big bruv
Racer

“until Obama’s two terms are up”

Ha ha ha ha.

B Hussein Messiah Obama is a ONE term POTUS, get used to the idea.”

Wrong. With the state of the republicans currently, I don’t really think they are savable before the next US election, Obama will win the next one for sure (remember how all you lot pretending McCain was going to win didn’t count for shit in the end?), not sure who they will put up after him, maybe Hillary? who knows, but then the Republicans might have a chance, certainly a whole lot more than the next election.
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September 23, 2009 6:27pm
jabba

well done to WOBH .. the ex MP has been outed so should fess up. At the moment he is innocent of all charges so why not.
This guy has caused ex MP’s all sorts of problems with false accusations aim at them so come on .. man up, you can’t run 4eva.
The anti Laws faction should start playing the ball (a Labour Party tactic), not the man.
The new Tui ad .. ‘i give a Whuck” is funny by the way.
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September 23, 2009 6:28pm
kaya

I have to link this for those who may not have seen it – I enjoyed it!!

Imagine if Star Wars had been written by environmentalists, In a galaxy far away………

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eknuqWQ4-Mw

lol
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September 23, 2009 8:24pm
virtualmark

tom hunter … thanks for your comment above re Iran. I don’t ultimately disagree with you that the key to Iran is with its own people. But the key to the people of Iran is Russia (yes, really).

If you want to trigger a revolution you need to get masses of people out into the streets. The recent Iranian election got a number of people – the well educated urban people – out into the streets, but that’s not enough. So you need to find something that you can control from outside Iran, which will really piss people off, and which will be seen as the President and clerics “fault”.

In Iran that’s gasoline. Iran heavily subsidises petrol – last I heard it was about NZ$0.15 a litre. But Iran – oddly enough – lacks refining capacity so it has to import 40% of its gasoline. Blockade the gasoline, so the thinking goes, and the Iranian man on the street is going to get really riled up.

But to blockade the gasoline you need 2 things … international approval & legitimacy, and an effective way to seal the borders. Both of those things need Russia.

My own view is that Obama needs to decide whether it’s better to (i) try to stop Iran becoming a nuclear weapon state, or (ii) accept it and try to shape Iran’s engagement with the world. There are pros and cons of both of those options. But, assuming that the decision is to try to stop Iran becoming a nuclear weapon state then … how would your plan play out?

Re your first point, comparing Iran with Poland in the late 1980’s. I’m not sure it would play out as you suggest. With Poland you had Reagan (and others) exhorting the Poles to unite as patriots against a foreign invader/oppressor (USSR). That us-patriots-against-the-foreign-devil is a powerful rallying call, but the US can’t play that card in Iran. The Iranians can play it against the US though.

Re your second point … if you shoot up any sanction-busters then you are literally declaring war on Iran and/or a number of neighbouring states. The last thing the Americans want right now is another shooting war in the Middle East. And certainly not with Iran

Re your third point … Israel does not have the capability to deliver a knock-out blow to Iran’s nuclear sites. It just can’t do it.

Re your fourth point … the Straits of Hormuz are the number one problem in the whole Iranian situation. Don’t be so confident that the US can deal with Iran effectively. Google “paul van riper persian gulf” … it’ll be enlightening. The Iranians can shut off the Straits of Hormuz any time they like. If they do so then 40% of the world’s oil supply stops. The Greens will be rapt. The rest of us can fill up our cars with petrol at $5 a litre. You think this is a recession? Just wait to see what’ll happen if the Iranians feel threatened. This is Iran’s real nuclear option.
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September 23, 2009 9:10pm
reid

“the key to the people of Iran is Russia”

Nah. The key to the PEOPLE of Iran is Israel – whether either side know it or not.

The key to the GEOPOLITICS of Iran, is Russia, China and the US.

“The last thing the Americans want right now is another shooting war in the Middle East. And certainly not with Iran”

The complicating factor is Israel.
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September 23, 2009 9:42pm
virtualmark

To some extent Reid yes, the complicating factor is Israel.

After the last round of meetings between Obama & Netanyahu the Israelis announced that the US had agreed that in the event of a failure in negotiations, the US would demand — and get — crippling sanctions against Iran, code for sanctions on gasoline imports. In return, the Israelis indicated that any plans for a unilateral strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities would be put off.

So yes, it seems Obama has made commitments he has to deliver. Why he made those promises – and he’s never denied the Israeli claim – is unclear.

But … in truth the Israeli’s aren’t able to deliver a knock-out blow to Iran. They don’t have enough refuelling aircraft to support a strike over that distance, they don’t have enough strike aircraft to get repeated missions over Iran, they lack weapons that can penetrate hardened targets buried under meters and meters of rock, and they lack the military intelligence to know just exactly where those buried targets are (you might know where the door on the surface is … but the actual target could be hundreds of meters away in any direction). And, in order to get to Iran you’d have to fly over Iraqi or Saudi airspace and also deal with the possible threat from US carrier aircraft in the Persian Gulf … hard to figure the Israeli’s can get through there unmolested.

So for all the threats Israel’s military options are very limited.
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September 23, 2009 9:59pm
reid

“But … in truth the Israeli’s aren’t able to deliver a knock-out blow to Iran.”

Quite agree, VM.

That’s what Georgia was all about.

I would BTW, argue that Israel has extremely good connections inside the US intelligence community to the extent that it may have that which it could have used to be successful.
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September 23, 2009 10:03pm
Gulag Archipelago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercontinental_ballistic_missile#Israel
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September 23, 2009 10:07pm
virtualmark

Gulag … I doubt anyone seriously wants Israel to start World War III just yet.

And I doubt that Israel’s ICBMs would be able to knock out hardened targets buried way way under rock. Sure, they can turn the rock at ground level into glass. But anyone 100 metres down below is just going to wonder why the temperature just went up a degree or two.
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September 23, 2009 10:13pm
getstaffed

From stuff: Port protesters get diversion

Eleven of the 15 Greenpeace protesters charged with trying to stop a cargo ship from entering the Port of Tauranga last week have been given police diversion.

Disgraceful. These were serious criminal actions, ie not overdue library book stuff.

If the management of the shipping company broke into Greepeace’s offices, chained themselves to the roof and staged a noisy media-supported protest… do you think they’d get diversion? Nope. It would be trespass, convictions and/or fines.
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