General Debate 20 September 2009

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Patrick Starr

in the light of the Caster Semenya debacle, the ARU has decided to perform gender testing on the Wallabies, to determine if they’re really men.
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September 20, 2009 7:40am
dimmocrazy

Grant Robertson at the Red Rag writes about the “think tank” he is visiting in the US: http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/09/20/letter-from-america-iv-multilateralism-on-the-mississippi/ .

Now, I have been booted off Trevor Mallard’s Pravda, so I can’t comment there, but is it just me or are there other people that get annoyed to see how tax funded MP’s are traveling around the world to take courses in socialism and no doubt catch up with their mates to plot their marxist schemes?
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September 20, 2009 7:42am
philu

whoar..!

the new zealand herald has ripped into bill english..over his housing arrangments/re-arrangments..

(and they don’t hold back..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/new-zealand-herald-editorial-its-still-not-a-good-look-billthere-can-be-few-sights-more-unedifying-than-that-of-a-politician-countering-accusations-of-improper-behaviour-by-claiming-that-his-actions-a/

“..he did so, he said, because it was “not a good look”.

And that is the nub of this matter.

The situation, in brief, is this: MPs who do not live in Wellington are entitled to claim actual accommodation costs up to a maximum of $24,000 a year – about $500 a week.

Ministers, who typically spend more nights in the capital, were reimbursed under a different formula, which included some utilities and cleaning and was costing more, although John Key changed the rules at the beginning of this month and trimmed the ministerial allowance to a lump sum of $37,500.

But English remained in a unique position: ..

.. the $1.2 million Karori house, owned by the family’s Endeavour Trust, in which he lives with his wife and six children..

.. is deemed an official ministerial residence .. and leased back to the Crown.

Until English, under pressure, changed the arrangements, this cost taxpayers – and, by any sensible assessment, benefited English –

– $47,000 a year.

If these arrangements complied with the letter of the law, English should explain why he changed them when the heat came on.

He also needs to explain the trust arrangements.

He declared a “beneficial interest” in the trust last year .. and “no pecuniary interest” this year.

What changed, and why?

The inescapable suspicion lingers that he was arranging his affairs to maximise his entitlements.

That may be legal, but in the middle of a recession when, as Finance Minister, he is calling for restraint in public expectations of state spending..

.. it remains deeply questionable..”

(oo-err..!..eh..?

this is developing into quite a ‘curly-one’..eh..?..

and don’tyaluv how he is no longer ‘mr english’..?

..he is now addressed by the far more abrupt ‘english’…)

how are his ‘stocks’ looking on that i-predict thingy..?..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 7:48am
Johnboy

Congrats phil it has only taken you 5776 practice posts to finally write a readable one. Well done lad.
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September 20, 2009 8:10am
joe90

This article by Frank Schaeffer, son of the late Calvinist preacher Francis Schaeffer, has some very interesting insights into the nature of the Christian far right: Glenn Beck and The 9/12 Marchers: Subversives From Within.

In the early 1970s the evangelicals like my late father and James Dobson decided that the our society had fallen so far “away from God” and so far from “America’s Christian history” that it was time to metaphorically decamp to not just another country but to another planet:. In other words virtually unnoticed by the media and mainstream political operatives, a big chunk of American society seceded from the union in all but name.

What they did is turn the white race-based “Christian school” movement of the 1950s into a countercultural phenomena. As tens of thousands of new Christian schools opened, it was no longer just about “protecting” white kids from minorities and African-Americans. It was about protecting your children from Satan — in other words the United States government’s long reach through the public school system.
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September 20, 2009 8:27am
philu

johnboy..

were you away from school..the day they did speech-marks..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 8:31am
MeneerCronje

Don’t feed the trolls Johnboy 🙂
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September 20, 2009 8:36am
dimmocrazy

Not a good call that, Phil.
The only conclusion left now is that the “day they did speech marks” was the ONLY day you went to school…………..
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September 20, 2009 8:37am
Johnboy

Never got to go to school lad. T’was doon t’pit for me at 5 years of age to help feed my poor widowed mum and fifteen brothers and sisters.
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September 20, 2009 8:43am
Patrick Starr

“The only conclusion left now is that….. ”

and that Phool seems to be proudly acknowledging the only legible part of his comment has indeed been copied from elsewhere
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September 20, 2009 8:46am
philu

update on the english-thing..

he has refused to appear on q&a..to discuss the subject..

that should be like a red flag to alll the rest of the media..

(it’s all escalating quite fast..isn’t it..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 9:05am
MikeNZ

I was at the family first conference on Friday and listened to Phil Goff and John Key who both told porkies to the assembled.

I wanted to throw my shoe at Goff when he went all visionary on us about what needs to be done for child abuse and domestic violence.
I just couldn’t get it out of my mind “where the F were you the last 9 yrs”! that ropable he made me.

Especially when he invoked that little girl Nia Glassie name.

No he didn’t ride on stage on a Harley but he did state he was a Catholic and thought abortions were a bad idea.
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September 20, 2009 9:07am
Inventory2

Philip Ure breathlessly announces:

“update on the english-thing..

he has refused to appear on q&a..to discuss the subject..”

So what? The last person that Bill English, or any politician for that matter is beholden to is Paul Holmes.
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September 20, 2009 9:07am
andrei

The BBC gets sniffy over this – “They are trying to destroy our country and our traditional values. We don’t want Serbia to become like Holland,” he says, grimacing at the thought.
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September 20, 2009 9:11am
philu

you just don’t ‘get it’..do you inventory..?

it is not about holmes..

it i about the minister of finance refusing to answer questions about this financial ‘entitlements’..

and the questions are from the general public..

it’s nothing to do with holmes..

shall we start a sweepstake as to when english will resign/’retire back to dipton’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 9:12am
gravedodger

Gravedodger admits he was wrong and begs forgiveness, well done Ritchie and the AB’s. Woeful Wallabies came to town the day that all the AB’s turned up and turned it on with a vengeance.
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September 20, 2009 9:13am
Viking2

So the Greens energy saving house insulating, heat pump installing, policies have now been proven to be bullshit.
All becuase it seems we prefer comfort to energy savings. One new brick in a power station for every heat pump.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/2882918/Don-t-count-on-that-energy-saving

Don’t count on that energy saving …
By GARRY SHEERAN – Sunday Star Times
Last updated 05:00 20/09/2009

Retrofitted insulation makes your house warmer, but don’t count on that saving.
Relevant offers

If you’re planning to recoup through energy savings the several thousand dollars you have just spent, or are planning to spend insulating your home, then don’t. At least, not any time soon.

Recent work done for research consortium Beacon Pathways found Papakowhai, Wellington, homes had unchanged energy use during 2006-08 after being fitted with basic ceiling and floor insulation as part of a study.

Thick underfloor insulation payback time was 22.8 years.

Lots more in this long article. Read up you greenie/Nat. spendthrifts.
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September 20, 2009 9:19am
big bruv

Phool

What right do you have to question English for “ripping off” the tax payer?

I can question him, DPF can, Redbaiter can, Viking2 can but YOU cannot.

You are a parasite and parasite’s do not get to question how OUR tax dollars are spent.
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September 20, 2009 9:29am
jcuknz

The whole English business is a bunch of petty minded twits having a field day and a silly definition. The sensible questions/ definition is which area of the country does the MP represent. The fact that he is a successful and long standing MP being required to spend most of his time in Wellington doesn’t alter the fact that he represents Clutha, or whatever it is, and he is away from his home for most of the time and sensibly he has his family with him … good for them and good for him. If his adult kids want to register in Wellington then that is them, he doesn’t .. they are all adults now .. but not I think the nitpickers largely from the left.

The petty minded nit-pickers hack me off no end.
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September 20, 2009 9:33am
Inventory2

Amen to that big bruv – the mere thought of Philip Ure showing righteous indignation towards someone being supported by the taxpayers of New Zealand is irony in the very extreme.
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September 20, 2009 9:36am
philu

jcuknz..

let me explain for you..

he has been claiming an away from home/family allowance for ten years..

yet by all the criterea..(time spent/where wife?/where children?/where school?)

he is ineligble for that allowance..

and he is the finance minister..

this is not just ‘leftie-knit-picking’..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 9:40am
kaya

Nicky Kaye looking much more assured than Jacinda Adern, the question about the difference between being a list mp and an elected one caused a bit of a moment. lol
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September 20, 2009 9:48am
jcuknz

As to if insulating your home is worth it rather depends on how you do it. Forty years ago for the ‘family home’ I made my own double glazing by simply arranging two sheets of glass about three inches [75mm] apart and keeping a record of electricity bills found it paid for itself in ten years.
Recently in my retirement cottage I added plastic, poly carbonate stuff, to my current living room. The major effect has been that I find I have to turn my heater off becuase it is getting too hot for comfort.[ I rarely and only for a few seconds use more than a single gas heating element] The cost was about $300 for two windows. I made a simple frame which holds the poly about 65mm from the glass window [ used 40×20 timber to space it off the wooden frame]. Where the window opens the poly is screwed directly to the frame. Admittedly the weather seems to be warming up of late but I am very pleased with the result.

What gets my goat is Contact offer a discount if you also use their Rockgas service, 40 cents day discount. Ironically I have been using Rockgas for years but the discount doesn’t apply to 9kg bottle users … useless B’s. Plus I cannot pay via my credit card … one day I will get around to changing 🙂 So make hay while the sun shines Contact!
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September 20, 2009 9:50am
kaya

On Q+A I should have added.
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September 20, 2009 9:51am
jcuknz

Philu …. It is typical left wing nit picking and the criteria is stupid and should be as I suggested. Mind you I went to an ACT regional conference yesterday and thought the main planks they were promoting were pretty inconsequential. [ At least the need for change] Three strikes, student union membership … but they did have speakers for pro and con and there was no barracking of speakers like you experience here … sensible if pointless discussion.
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September 20, 2009 10:08am
Patrick Starr

“The petty minded nit-pickers hack me off no end.”
Yep, here’s the thing the lefties don’t seem to understand, Most people may disapprove of what English has done, but taking a look at Mallards comments is making him look even worse.
Extracts from yesterdays Herald;

“Labour has assigned a double hit squad, Trevor Mallard and Pete Hodgson, to target Finance Minister Bill English over his housing allowances But their aim is to wound him politically, not force him to resign, says Mr Mallard”

“This story will last as long as English is a minister”, but he said the aim was not to get him to resign. “Actually we would prefer him to stay there.”

In other words they don’t mind the rights and wrongs of what English may have done, nor if any damage may be done to the country by having him in charge of the books , so long as they can make him look bad
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September 20, 2009 10:13am
philu

the british justice secretary has called for prescribed heroin for addicts..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/jack-straw-calls-for-heroin-on-nhs/

..Jack Straw, the justice secretary, has called for the NHS to give out heroin on prescription to addicts for whom other forms of treatment have failed.

He claims “imaginative” solutions to hard-drug abuse are needed ..

.. and believes there could be “huge benefits” to issuing the drug to chronic addicts.

Straw said: “For the most problematic heroin users it may be the best means of reducing the harm they do themselves..

.. and of stamping out the crime and disorder they inflict on the community.”

Straw is the first cabinet minister to intervene in the debate following last week’s publication of the results of a pilot scheme involving 127 heroin addicts in three cities.

This trial had users injecting themselves under medical supervision ..

.. and revealed a huge drop in the crimes they committed to feed their habit..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 10:13am
tom hunter

I see that poor old Joe90 is truly a victim of child abuse.

When he last crawled out of The BIG RAT, his dad smashed the whole thing and now Joe is stuck with the brainwaves of a Far Left 1980’s ChristianPhobe. Ronald Reagan is the US President, James Watt is the Secretary of the Environment, the Moral Majority is in power.

Still, I guess the likes of Joe90 could be useful to atheists like me when, in the next exciting episode, he takes on Islamic Creationism.

Joe90 will be up for that I’m sure.

Can’t wait to see it.

I’ll get the popcorn.
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September 20, 2009 10:16am
philu

starr..

“In other words they don’t mind the rights and wrongs of what English may have done..”

so starr..you admit that what english did..for ten years..was ‘wrong’..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 10:17am
Patrick Starr

“of what English ‘may’ have done”
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September 20, 2009 10:19am
side show bob

Perhaps Philu would like to appear with Bill E on Q&A, now that would be good tele. Both explaining to the public of NZ how our taxes are spent. I think I would even open a bottle of rough red to watch that one.

And where did Liarbore find Jacinda Adren, it’s a bit of a worry really, she obviously not into hob nail boots and butch hair styles. Are standards slipping amongst the socialists ?.
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September 20, 2009 10:21am
philu

no starr..what he actually did..

there is no question/if’s/but’s about that..

(are you in denial of those irrefutable facts…?

are you also one of those ‘strange’ christians..?

(see following comment..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 10:23am
kaya

jcuknz – You naughty naughty person you! Don’t you know your meant to let the “gummint” do everything for you? They have to appraise, recommend which system, and tell you who is going to install it, you can’t do it yourself!
That is the legacy of the left my friend.
The methods used by EECA to encourage insulation and energy saving cause nothing but huge bureaucratic waste. The Aussies have a much better system. There is a specified set amount available for each project. They give you the specs for various projects either online or at the local council. YOU do the work or get it done for the best price you can. Someone inspects it to make sure it is up to standard then they send you a cheque. Simple.

This is the same reason why the solar hot water installation grant had NO takers in the first 2 years under Labour. In fact it was technically impossible to get the grant as no one could do it for a price that was set by EECA yet they advertised it on TV! I know, I tried to get it!

That organisation sucks hundreds of millions from us, I would be keen to see an inquiry into the return on investment so far.
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September 20, 2009 10:23am
philu

(further to joe 90’s link on the bat-crazy american religous nutters..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/why-do-13-of-new-jersey-conservatives-think-obama-might-be-the-anti-christ/

“..SCHAEFFER: Well, I was a child when President Kennedy was assassinated..

.. and my mother thought, because he died of a head wound, foretold in scripture of the anti-Christ .. he would be resurrected as the anti-Christ.

She thought this might be a possibility.

So, those of us who come from the evangelical subculture have been weaned with our mother‘s milk on a changing cast list of villains.

It might be Kennedy to one generation, Obama to the next.

But I think the larger point this brings up is that the mainstream—not just media, but culture—doesn‘t sufficiently take stock of the fact ..

.. that within our culture, we have a subculture which is literally a fifth column of insanity..

.. that is bred from birth through home school, Christian school, evangelical college, whatever..

.. to reject facts as a matter of faith.

And so, this substitute for authentic historic Christianity, and I may add as a little caveat here, I‘m a church-going Christian..

.. really brings up the question: ..

.. Can Christianity be rescued from Christians? .”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 10:26am
kaya

.Philu I never usually comment on what you write but if you are even hinting that the state should supply drugs for addicts you really have lost the plot.

Because the state supervised a group of drug addicts injecting themselves with supplied drugs and the crime rate dropped you are suggesting it is an “imaginative solution”?

I like beer and fishing and eating Chinese food. I hate working but that’s normally how I feed my “habits”. Maybe I should give up work and turn to the gummint to look after me because if they don’t I’ll be forced to rob somebody to get the money to do it. Rigggghhhhhhtttty O, sounds like a plan.
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September 20, 2009 10:32am
Patrick Starr

If he has done what is claimed it is bad, but the point is phool it’s the blatant scorched earth policy of you lefties that turns many people. Its like Cullen emptying the bank accounts before the election.
Do you ever wonder how long labour and friends will be in opposition – and why ?
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September 20, 2009 10:35am
philu

i am not suggesting it..kaya..i am reporting that the british secretary for justice is urging such a system be set up..

following (successful) trials of such a system..

(tho’ i do agree that drug addictions/use is a health matter..not a justice matter..)

let me explain kaya..

heroin is a blackmarket product..

therefor the cost reflects that blackmarket status..

to maintain their habits..addicts..not already wealthy..have to either deal or steal..

dealing means the incentive to get more users..to sell to..(hence use spreads)..(boo..!..bad..!..)

stealing..means stealing/crime..

now..smack addicts don’t wake up in the morning going..’yummy..!..what crimes can i commit today..’

they are thinking of one thing only…getting heroin..

so..if heroin can be prescribd to addicts..the blackmarket dries up..

..and the crime stats in that area..drop off a cliff..

(sensible’) countries ..such as switzerland..have had similar programs for addicts for over ten years..

..and what they have found..is that after three to four years..most addicts wean themselves off..

y’know..!

it ain’t rocket-science..!..eh..?

and..funny how it is the wowser anglo-saxon cultures..(us included..’double-bunking..?..anyone..?’..)..

that have this hysterical attitude to anyone using anything other than alcohol to achieve a state of conciousness-changing..

eh..?

(what is it with that..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 10:48am
Inventory2

Patrick Starr said “Most people may disapprove of what English has done, but taking a look at Mallards comments is making him look even worse.
Extracts from yesterdays Herald;

“Labour has assigned a double hit squad, Trevor Mallard and Pete Hodgson, to target Finance Minister Bill English over his housing allowances But their aim is to wound him politically, not force him to resign, says Mr Mallard”

“This story will last as long as English is a minister”, but he said the aim was not to get him to resign. “Actually we would prefer him to stay there.”

In other words they don’t mind the rights and wrongs of what English may have done, nor if any damage may be done to the country by having him in charge of the books , so long as they can make him look bad”

Kind of blows the “We’re sorry; we’re listening to New Zealanders, and we’re going to change the way we do things” theory out of the window, does it not. And with that utterance, Trevor Mallard adds to the skids under Phil Goff’s new era of Labour Party leadership.
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September 20, 2009 10:55am
Paulus

Having just “sort of” read Rod Oram in today’s Sunday Times the Government must be doing something right.
He “as an expert” condemning the new ETS proposal so, Go National at Copenhagen.
The one time Greens leader is going to publically protest there.
Take Oram and Goofy with you. Anything Oram condemns means it must be working
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September 20, 2009 10:59am
Patrick Starr

sure does IV2. Mallard comes across as some petty ‘nah nah’ finger pointer who doesn’t give a toss about any collateral damage, just so long as he can continue to poke out his tongue

(He wounds himself politically, but lets not force him to resign)
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September 20, 2009 11:01am
philu

“..Because the state supervised a group of drug addicts injecting themselves with supplied drugs and the crime rate dropped you are suggesting it is an “imaginative solution”?..

those living in those in crime/heroin riddled cities of britain .. may well see it that way..

especially when the examples cited..(switzerland..et. al. don’t have those heroin-crimes..

eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 11:17am
joe90

I see that poor old Joe90 is truly a victim of child abuse.

When he last crawled out of The BIG RAT, his dad smashed the whole thing and now Joe is stuck with the brainwaves of a Far Left 1980’s ChristianPhobe. Ronald Reagan is the US President, James Watt is the Secretary of the Environment, the Moral Majority is in power.

Still, I guess the likes of Joe90 could be useful to atheists like me when, in the next exciting episode, he takes on Islamic Creationism.

Joe90 will be up for that I’m sure.

Can’t wait to see it.

I’ll get the popcorn.

If that’s the best you can do sport I’ll give you a p for piss poor.

And as for brainwaves, the ones I’m stuck on at the moment are Irving Kristol’s Reality Principles.
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September 20, 2009 11:18am
transmogrifier

It is always depressing to come into a comments section and find half of the posts are by philu….

*wanders off*
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September 20, 2009 12:58pm
MT_Tinman

“transmogrifier (200) Vote: Add rating 3 Subtract rating 0 Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

It is always depressing to come into a comments section and find half of the posts are by philu….

*wanders off*”

Fucking hard on the scrolling finger eh.
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September 20, 2009 1:43pm
Jack5

Among Philu’s raves today, at 10.48 he implies only what he calls “Anglo Saxon” cultures prohibit non-alcohol drugs.

I suggest Philu finds out about Singapore in case he plans a stop over there if he wants to take advantage of Britain’s apparent new heroin policy. I don’t think they have broadband in Singapore Prisons. Or perhaps those who offend just get birched and put on a plane home.

Philu also mentioned his mother’s apocalyptic world view. Philu, don’t blame your mum! Take responsibility.

As for Philu’s frothing about Bill English. The guy is the highly popular MP for Clutha-Southland, one of the most distant electorates from the House. English is entitled to the expense entailed in operating two households, which at least keeps him with his family in Wellington, where he spends more of this time, doing the nation’s work.

The house allowance is far less than one one-hundred-thousandth the cost to the country of the carnage caused by drug users and the filth who supply those drugs.

As for the absence of “Mr” in reference to English: this will relate to the publication of station’s style — it won’t be some sort of political downgrade.

Labour has fuck all on Bill English, or on any other National MP at present. The get-Bill campaign is pathetic.

In the meantime what’s going on with the Brash emails inquiry? Plods still plodding?
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September 20, 2009 2:06pm
kaya

philu – “and..funny how it is the wowser anglo-saxon cultures..(us included..’double-bunking..?..anyone..?’..)..

that have this hysterical attitude to anyone using anything other than alcohol to achieve a state of conciousness-changing..

eh..?

(what is it with that..?..)”

Philu in my younger years in London I tried many a method of consciousness changing, but never once in my life have I ever expected the taxpayer to fund it. As for giving in to blackmail, bollocks to that. Rather go to war with the drug addicts and dealers.
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September 20, 2009 2:17pm
Kris K

andrei 9:11 am,

The BBC gets sniffy over this – “They are trying to destroy our country and our traditional values. We don’t want Serbia to become like Holland,” he says, grimacing at the thought.

What else do you expect from the BBC? More left wing agenda driven crap!

Some of the quotes from the article:

“The policeman was standing just two metres away eating ice cream and not responding. I screamed at the guy ‘why did you hit this girl?’ and he replied ‘she’s not a girl, she’s a lesbian’.”

While not condoning the violence, few lesbians exhibit anything approaching the feminine ‘ideal’.

“I can’t do just those basic little things, like sitting in the park and holding my girlfriend or kissing her, because I’d be beaten,” says Majda. “I think about leaving Serbia all the time. But this is my home.”

Once again, while not condoning violence, queers’ public displays of ‘affection’ are more a political statement along the lines of ‘we’re normal too, and what are you going to do about it?’ I believe most normal, decent minded people feel the bile rise when confronted with such sickening behaviour.

“All those trying to promote homosexuality as normal or acceptable are the enemies of the Serbian nation,” he tells me.
“They are trying to destroy our country and our traditional values. We don’t want Serbia to become like Holland,” he says, grimacing at the thought.

Couldn’t agree more. He could have just as easily said New Zealand instead of Holland. We too have cast off any approximation of good, traditional values. Moral relativism rules supreme.

Belgrade’s Mayor, Dragan Djilas, said recently that he believed sexual orientation should not be paraded.

Amen to that! A shame more of our mayors and politicians don’t hold similar views.

“The fact that the pride couldn’t go ahead shows that Serbia is still a homophobic society.”

More like it shows that Serbia still has some moral foundation to its society; one where it differentiates between right and wrong; between right living and abomination.
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September 20, 2009 3:21pm
gnadsmasher

Anyone who thinks that Serbia–the country of genocide against Croats and Kosovars, friend of Russia and enemy of NATO, the same Serbians who attacked NZ peacekeepers in the 90s–is somehow a model for NZ or any other capitalist democracy needs to have their gourd checked. Either that, or they are Serbians or Serbian sympathisers with the same proclivities. Andrei and Kris K seem to be in this category. Now where are Steve, Murray and ratbuggered? Might as well let the bigots play together……
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September 20, 2009 3:49pm
reid

Meanwhile,

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman on Thursday, in his first comments in response to the harsh UN report investigation into the Israeli aggression on the Gaza strip, said: “I can say wholeheartedly, as can any man that examines the matter in an objective manner, that the IDF is the most moral army in the world, and it is forced to deal with the most vile terrorists, who set for themselves the goal of killing women and children, and hide behind women and children.” He said, “The Goldstone Report has no legal, factual or ethical value, and more than a testament to the State of Israel, it is a testament to the writers of the report and those that sent them.”

http://www.almanar.com.lb/NewsSite/NewsDetails.aspx?id=103655&language=en

Note the sidebar article: Barak explains that Iran is not an existential threat.

“Israel is strong, I don’t see anyone who could pose an existential threat”

The threat, of course, is not to Israel’s existence but to Israel’s status as the region’s only superpower, able to do whatever it wants whenever it wants to.
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September 20, 2009 4:02pm
Hurf Durf

The problem with Iran getting a nuclear arsenal would be the possibility of a domino effect of Egypt and Saudi Arabia persuing their own nuclear programmes, Iran becoming enboldened in their arming and support of Islamist groups in Lebanon, Israel, Iraq and Afghanistan and Turkey becoming skittish of a nuclear-armed fundie state on their border (they’ve recently bought Patriot anti-ballistic missiles from the US). Despite all their public posturing, no other country in the Arab world wants to see a nuclear Iran, except maybe Libya. Then again, the military option may inadvertently cause more problems than they would solve, especially if Israel is unable to secure substantial diplomatic support from the US to offset the inevitable noise from Western leftists and anti-semitics, Islamist groups and whiny Third World leaders.
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September 20, 2009 4:16pm
Kris K

gnadsmasher 3:49 pm,

Anyone who thinks that Serbia–the country of genocide against Croats and Kosovars, friend of Russia and enemy of NATO, the same Serbians who attacked NZ peacekeepers in the 90s–is somehow a model for NZ or any other capitalist democracy needs to have their gourd checked. Either that, or they are Serbians or Serbian sympathisers with the same proclivities. Andrei and Kris K seem to be in this category. Now where are Steve, Murray and ratbuggered? Might as well let the bigots play together……

Making the illogical leap that somehow good moral values are inconsistant with a strong democracy is disingenuous. Democracy with no moral foundation is doomed to failure. The rise in acceptance of homosexuality is usually an indication that a society is in the final stages prior to its eventual demise. Most western nations are well and truly about as low morally as they can go. So while Serbia has other issues, making homosexuality acceptible within their society will only hinder any further societal advances. Once moral values go, little else matters.
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September 20, 2009 4:21pm
reid

“Most western nations are well and truly about as low morally as they can go.”

No we could go a lot lower, Kris.

Accepting homosexuality is different from promoting it, and I’m comfortable with the former but not with the latter.

Some people of course think that the latter is a necessary corollary to the former. I don’t agree.
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September 20, 2009 4:29pm
Kris K

reid 4:02 pm,

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman on Thursday, in his first comments in response to the harsh UN report investigation into the Israeli aggression on the Gaza strip, said: “I can say wholeheartedly, as can any man that examines the matter in an objective manner, that the IDF is the most moral army in the world, and it is forced to deal with the most vile terrorists, who set for themselves the goal of killing women and children, and hide behind women and children.” He said, “The Goldstone Report has no legal, factual or ethical value, and more than a testament to the State of Israel, it is a testament to the writers of the report and those that sent them.”

In light of Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman’s comment the following comes to mind:

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
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September 20, 2009 4:32pm
reid

Kris I think the critical aspect to that quote is the bit about the vile terrorists.

He is of course correct, they are vile. However the useful idiots who blindly support Israel in every way never acknowledge the obvious fact that Israel’s treatment of that whole population is counter-productive because it breeds hatred. I mean duh.

And they Israelis know this because they’re part of the human race. Everyone knows that’s what happens when you treat a population like they treat the Palestinians. And yet they keep doing it and the useful idiots keep talking about how it’s necessary because look at all of that implacable hatred. And the hatred surprisingly enough, keeps burning. Who woulda thunk.
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September 20, 2009 4:41pm
Kris K

reid 4:29 pm,

“Most western nations are well and truly about as low morally as they can go.”

No we could go a lot lower, Kris.
Accepting homosexuality is different from promoting it, and I’m comfortable with the former but not with the latter.
Some people of course think that the latter is a necessary corollary to the former. I don’t agree.

While I accept that we could go lower, I believe there is little difference between the ‘acceptance’ and the ‘active promotion’ of any and all immoral behaviours. Just as I believe that most western nations, including NZ, have already moved into the realm of actively promoting homosexuality, I also believe other immoral practices and societal acceptance will follow quickly on its heels.
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September 20, 2009 4:44pm
Kris K

reid 4:41 pm,

Kris I think the critical aspect to that quote is the bit about the vile terrorists.

I’ll be the first to admit that Israel is anything but perfect. But no matter what Israel does to help the Palistinians it is thrown back in their face. I believe the Palistinians are willing accomplices to the general Islamic agenda to ‘drive Israel into the sea’. And they therefore must take responsibility and bear the consequences for their complicity.
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September 20, 2009 4:52pm
reid

“I believe there is little difference between the ‘acceptance’ and the ‘active promotion’ of any and all immoral behaviours.”

Well I don’t think people can choose to be gay anymore than we can choose what colour our eyes are. Given that, I’m faced with either asking gay people to be celibate, or to accept that if they prefer someone of their own gender, then be my guest.

Just don’t shove it my face and don’t flaunt it in public any more than heterosexuals flaunt their sexuality in public. Provided it’s generally kept at approximately that level, I’m OK.

In addition, because of the trauma in young people associated with coming out, I’m fairly happy with gay pride movements because I see them as simply a reaction to protect against suicide arising from that trauma.

I think gay people are starting to push against those boundaries and who am I to say cease and desist. I have no more right to do that than they have at telling me what to do.

I agree there is a general moral malaise which is getting worse and sexual morality is declining in general, but this is only one of the fronts and IMO, a far more serious one is the way young ladies are being encouraged to adopt male attitudes of promiscuity toward sex, because doing so simply degrades their femininity and when that happens in yourself, true happiness and emotional security is hard to come by.
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September 20, 2009 5:03pm
reid

“And they therefore must take responsibility and bear the consequences for their complicity.”

Quite agree, Kris. But Israel takes collective punishment as a matter of course and until they stop doing that, the population will continue to produce terrorists within all families across the social strata.

The only way to break that cycle is to stop collective punishment. Period.

BTW, one of the saddest things to me is that children who by definition commit no crimes witness things until they are so traumatised they’re quite prepared and even proud to blow themselves up. At that point they are no longer children, but they once were.
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September 20, 2009 5:08pm
Kris K

reid 5:03 pm,

While I disagree with you regarding ‘homosexuals are just born that way’ (I do believe it is a choice), I do think that the general decline in sexual morality is one of the most critical indicators of ‘society falling apart at the seams’. I feel societal acceptance of homosexuality, and sexual promoscuity in general will only further lead to other deviant sexual practices such as bestiality and necrophilia. I really do feel that the path is fixed without any moral compass being in place.
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September 20, 2009 5:13pm
Kris K

reid 5:08 pm,

“And they therefore must take responsibility and bear the consequences for their complicity.”

Quite agree, Kris. But Israel takes collective punishment as a matter of course and until they stop doing that, the population will continue to produce terrorists within all families across the social strata.

The only way to break that cycle is to stop collective punishment. Period.

I really do think Israel tries its best to target miliatary targets. But when the enemy hides amongst ‘women and children’ they by default become miliatary targets too. Israel is caught between a rock and a hard place. It either does nothing and the bombs reign down on its settlements/towns, or it responds and is accused of targetting women and children. I think Israel has to prioritise its own populace; its own ‘women and children’ over those of its enemy.
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September 20, 2009 5:22pm
philu

“..Philu also mentioned his mother’s apocalyptic world view. Philu, don’t blame your mum! Take responsibility..”

do you know what speechmarks are..?..jack..?

(if not..they usually designate some other person than the writer speaking..eh..?

got that..?..

jack..?..)

and you are quite happy with english getting an extra 47 grand he isn’t entitled to..?

and that he has been doing this since 1996..?

whoar..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 5:30pm
reid

Well Kris if you think the Gazan tactics or the strategy, were a success then I beg to differ.

The tactics were unnecessary in the context of the stated strategy and just what exactly did the staff planners imagine was going to happen with the terrorists? Did they think the terrorists would jump out into the open and all bunch together?

So as Gaza unfolded, did they act as if they had a clever plan to counter that rather predictable development of the terrorists hiding amongst the population?

No, and the world watched, justifiably appalled. This also was a predictable reaction and the fact the Israeli’s hadn’t prepared a decent PR campaign was blindingly obvious.

It was a bungle from start to finish, ending up with this report which was again, sad to say, predictable.

See, in Lebanon, the IDF lost its invincible reputation which was worth fifty divisions amongst its neighbours. Gaza was another debacle, not only geopolitically but also from a security perspective because Hamas is still as strong in Gaza as it ever was. If you think those rockets were really the reason then I beg to differ. Regardless of that however, fact is, for what it achieved, Gaza has not been worth the cost in blood and treasure and most importantly, in reputation.
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September 20, 2009 5:34pm
philu

and kris k..you are one sick/fucked up/twisted individual..aren’t you..

your hate nearly emanates from the monitor screen..

(i’m sure we could smell it on yr breath..eh..?)

do you feel that same anger for ..say…child poverty..?

or do you reserve all your bile for homosexuals..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 20, 2009 5:37pm
tom hunter

Hurf Durf

Just in reference back to this debate:

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/09/general_debate_18_september_2009.html#comment-609252

Thanks for the nod – but those were actually CraigM’s thoughts –and I agreed with them.
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September 20, 2009 6:19pm
Whafe

I am sure a good many of you will have received this email, I find it quite interesting all the same.

This is great. I have been wondering about why Whites are racists, and no other race is…..  Proud to be White    Michael Richards makes his point……………  Michael Richards better known as Kramer from TV’s Seinfeld does make a good point.    This was his defense speech in court after making racial comments in his comedy act. He makes some very interesting points…    Someone finally said it. How many are actually paying attention to this? There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc.     And then there are just Americans. You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction. You call me ‘White boy,’ ‘Cracker,’ ‘Honkey,’ ‘Whitey,’ ‘Caveman’… and that’s OK..    But when I call you, Nigger, Kike, Towel head, Sand-nigger, Camel Jockey, Beaner, Gook, or Chink..You call me a racist.    You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you…. so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?    You have the United Negro College Fund. You have Martin Luther King Day.     You have Black History Month. You have Cesar Chavez Day.     You have Yom Hashoah. You have Ma’uled Al-Nabi.     You have the NAACP. You have BET…. If we had WET (White Entertainment Television), we’d be racists. If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.     If we had White History Month, we’d be racists.    If we had any organization for only whites to ‘advance’ OUR lives, we’d be racists.    We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder who pays for that??    A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.    If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships… You know we’d be racists.    There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US. Yet if there were ‘White colleges’, that would be a racist college.    In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.    You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you’re not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.    You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.    I am proud… But you call me a racist.    Why is it that only whites can be racists??    There is nothing improper about this e-mail.. Let’s see which of you are proud enough to send it on. I sadly don’t think many will. That’s why we have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won’t stand up for ourselves!   BE PROUD TO BE WHITE!  
It’s not a crime YET… but getting very close!                       It is estimated that ONLY 5% of those reaching this point in this e-mail, will pass it on.. 
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September 20, 2009 6:31pm
Whafe

philu – re your comments towards Kris K…… How many times have you been to Israel? Do you have family that lives there?

I have a sister whom lives there and has children etc… I totally agree with what Kris K says in his post at 5.22 in the PM……
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September 20, 2009 6:35pm
Viking2

How depressing.

The National/Act government can’t even keep up with the Swedish government, which is reducing taxes to cope with the recession. From their budget for 2009;

http://lindsaymitchell.blogspot.com/2009/09/nationalact-government-to-left-of.html
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September 20, 2009 8:40pm
nickb

I reckon Viking. Truly disgusting- NACT are now leading a government more left wing than the socialist nirvana’s of Scandinavia.

What were you saying about “high tax high state support” countries of Scandinavia phil?

Looks like NZ is more left wing than Sweden now
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September 20, 2009 8:43pm
reid

While I disagree with you regarding ‘homosexuals are just born that way’ (I do believe it is a choice), I do think that the general decline in sexual morality is one of the most critical indicators of ’society falling apart at the seams’. I feel societal acceptance of homosexuality, and sexual promoscuity in general will only further lead to other deviant sexual practices such as bestiality and necrophilia. I really do feel that the path is fixed without any moral compass being in place.

Kris it’s not a choice. It’s just not. Sexual promiscuity is a lifestyle; bestiality, necrophilia are perversions. Homosexuality is an underlying state of being. It changes a person’s DNA, in the vernacular…
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September 20, 2009 8:54pm
TimG_Oz

Well Reid – no comment from you with the latest round of tirades from Ahmadinejad?

Calling the holocaust a “lie”

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1115657.html

Confronting Israel is a “National Duty”

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1115637.html

Given your own anti-semitic tirades, and bizarre conspiracy theories, I am hardly surprised that you missed this. Did any of the NZ mainstream media pick it up either?

You also failed to mention that the “Damning UN report” was equally Damning of Hamas.
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September 20, 2009 11:15pm
racer1

“Kris K
While I disagree with you regarding ‘homosexuals are just born that way’ (I do believe it is a choice), I do think that the general decline in sexual morality is one of the most critical indicators of ’society falling apart at the seams’. I feel societal acceptance of homosexuality, and sexual promoscuity in general will only further lead to other deviant sexual practices such as bestiality and necrophilia. I really do feel that the path is fixed without any moral compass being in place.”

We should ban hetrosexual sex because it is a kind of “gateway” sex leading towards homosexual sex.
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September 21, 2009 8:23pm

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