General Debate 1 September 2009

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mickysavage

It is good to see the Maori Party growing some kahunas and making a principled stand on climate change. National will now need to seek support from Labour and hopefully a cross party consensus can be reached on the issue.

Act will be sidelined. It is funny but the Labour minority report states “despite having insisted on the setting up of the committee and contributing a lengthy minority report, the Act Party has not deigned to attend most of the committee’s meetings.”

Quite surprising really since the select committee was Act’s idea.

It is a shame they did not attend. They may have learned something.
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September 1, 2009 8:06am
jcuknz

It is a pity that ACT has this blind spot about climate change … but then all parties have them like Labour/Green blindness about smacking .. both are unfortunate facts of life we have to live with.
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September 1, 2009 8:14am
bharmer

Don’t normally like Moreu’s cartoon style, but he is on target today
http://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/1251890/Mike-Moreu
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September 1, 2009 8:15am
Redbaiter

Three cheers for Mr. David Farrar, for his work with the Free Speech Coalition, and for running one of the only blogs on the NZ internet where freedom of expression is given the respect it is due.

Hip hip hooray.

Hip hip Hooray

Hip hip hooray.

Where so many blogs are run by ignorant little Stalinistists drunk with the power of controlling comment on their pissant little publications, Mr. Farrar continues to set the standard for Freedom of Political Expression and as a result, has the most popular blog in the country. By a light year.

When the left wingers make their blogs as popular as Mr. Farrar’s, maybe then they can criticize.

In the meantime, they should just get on with censoring their own sparsley visited blogs and stop trying to censor Kiwiblog.
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September 1, 2009 8:18am
bearhunter

“It is good to see the Maori Party growing some kahunas…”

They’re growing sorcerers? Cool, they can get all harry potter on JOhn Key whenever he annoys them.

Mickey Savage, the word you are looking for is cojones, the Spanish for balls, not Kahunas, the Hawaiian for magicians. Hate to be such a pedant, but poor use of language suggests poor cognitive skills and makes you like like a fucking moron.
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September 1, 2009 8:24am
MikeNZ

The ETS is a crock of shit.
Political gerrymaking of some real science to achieve other political ends.
It is a political movement of people who want to (different groups) attack country’ sovereignty and redistribute wealth amongst nations whilst making a ton of money for themselves.
The UN want this so bad as it is the only one of their many schemes in the past to get an income stream separate from the US and other major donors.

ACT rightly say prove it, not models.
The science is not settled and their star Nobel prize winner has been shown to have no clothes on in the British High court.
Anyone who trusts the veracity of the UN needs committing.

Do I think John Key will have the courage to say. “hold on this is not a done deal”?
No
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September 1, 2009 8:25am
Redbaiter

“makes you like like a fucking moron.”

Logged and recorded as an example of the rampant hate speech permitted on Kiwiblog.

Please mind your language you disgusting Fascist Nazi running dog capitalist scum exploiter of the poor.
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September 1, 2009 8:29am
siobhan

Can someone point me in the direction of all the “average” kiwi’s that support an ETS, that Charles Chavel was talking about on ZB this morning?

The ETS is starting to remind me of Hitler’s propaganda machine. If you say something often enough it must be true. These guys seriously think the masses support this. I think that – seriously the masses have no idea what is going on, and frankly have more important things to worry about.

So an ETS will be passed, and in a couple of years time people are going to be sitting there scratching their heads, asking why their real income is going backward.
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September 1, 2009 8:33am
kaya

RB – DPF and freedom of speech, agreed. My introduction to the blogosphere was the Herald online. (forgive me father for I have sinned.) It took me a while before I realised my emails weren’t getting lost in transmission but were being selectively used. Nothing to do with language or abuse, straight up dropped because they were trying to present a certain viewpoint.
It’s a mucky business!!
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September 1, 2009 8:38am
kiwipolemicist

Hilarious antigovernment video for everyone’s entertainment:

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/tim-hawkins-the-government-can-antigovernment-humour/

ETS is global income redistribution (theft), and the IMF admits this:

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/the-emissions-trading-scheme-global-socialism/
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September 1, 2009 8:38am
MikeNZ

DPF
I can’t give Karma to RB, Siobhan, Bharmer, it just goes grey.
I’ve asked about this before.

[DPF: No idea why. Try deleting cookies]
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September 1, 2009 8:39am
siobhan

Further more – It gets right up my arse when I am accused of being a climate change denier. I DON’T deny that climate changes. If it didn’t change we would still be in a fucking ice age.

The manipulation of this issue is astounding. Those who continually refer to climate change piss me off. If the climate was predicted to change by 2 degrees cooler in the next 50 – 100 years, with longer winters, shorter growing seasons – would be sitting here quibbling over an ETS.

Tell the truth you manipulating shits. The only thing I deny is than Carbon is not the environmental poison it is being made out to be. Go ask a TREE.
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September 1, 2009 8:39am
MikeNZ

Kaya
the Dompost does the same so it must be a newspaper thing.
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September 1, 2009 8:40am
Cerium

“ACT rightly say prove it, not models.”

Prove that sea levels will rise by 457.6 mm by 2099?

Will Act prove that reducing tax rates will improve the economy before supporting any reductions?
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September 1, 2009 8:40am
Redbaiter

“The ETS is starting to remind me of Hitler’s propaganda machine.”

It might well remind you of that, but the left wing sector of society, educated in Labour’s corrupt and dysfunctional education system and purposefully shielded from the historical crimes of socialist totalitarians, mostly do not have a clue what you are talking about.

They are largely (by design), completely ignorant of how the seeds of totalitarianism are planted and nurtured to maturity.
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September 1, 2009 8:41am
Cerium

“I can’t give Karma to RB, Siobhan, Bharmer, it just goes grey.”

I think there is a karma conspicracy, RB has taken control of all his own karma because he doesn’t trust anyone else.

Or you could just try refresh.
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September 1, 2009 8:42am
bearhunter

@ Redbaiter – seven qualifiers before arriving at exploiter of the poor? Far too many for the likes of mickeysavage and his ilk. Could you make the insults shorter, blunter and more in keeping with the intellectual values of International Socialism, please? Otherwise mickey won’t know he’s having the piss ripped out of him.
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September 1, 2009 8:48am
Cerium

“# Redbaiter :
one of the only blogs on the NZ internet where freedom of expression is given the respect it is due.”

Good to see that you are now respect freedom of expression here 🙂
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September 1, 2009 8:50am
philu

here is a reality-check for those believing the ‘happy-clappy’ economic-news from our mainstream media..

as usual..they are just blowing it out their arses..

..and are so far behind the game to be either a joke..or sad..

september is going to be very rough..

..and then it should get worse..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/us-equity-markets-look-dangerously-wobbly-as-insiders-sell-in-record-numbers/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 1, 2009 8:52am
philu

“..but poor use of language suggests poor cognitive skills and makes you like like a fucking moron…”

petard..?..own..?..hoisted..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 1, 2009 8:56am
Grant Michael McKenna

Kahuna is Aussie slang for a big cock; I think from the cricket bat? The karma is registered but, as Cerium says, you must refresh to see that your vote was counted. I’m still waiting to find out the name of DPF’s “unmoderated forum for angry right-wing nutters” which Toad quoted IrishBill at The Standard as saying.
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September 1, 2009 8:56am
Redbaiter

“Good to see that you are now respect freedom of expression here”

Coming from one who routinely advocates against that freedom of expression that is more hypocrisy than irony. You would be far more at home on one of the blogs you want Kiwiblog to emulate.

The sad left wing echo chambers run by puny minded totalitarians drunk with the power of post deletion.

Where terminally stupid poorly educated leftists thugs sit with their red pencils in hand desperately cancelling any words that they find offensive to their pathetic Progressive sensibilities.

You complain so much about Kiwiblog and its contributors and attract so much negative kharma it must only be the perverted thrill of being spurned humiliated and offended that keeps you coming here.

(and please, spare me the smug pretentious smilies)
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September 1, 2009 9:01am
philu

“..Please mind your language you disgusting Fascist Nazi running dog capitalist scum exploiter of the poor..”

heh..!

have you heard about the ‘after-birthers’..?..red..?

they want to see obamas’ placenta..

before they’ll believe his birth..

(they aren’t ‘saying anything’.but..y’know..!)

they will accept a length of fallopian tube ..

..as a ‘second-best’..

..’proof’..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 1, 2009 9:01am
Cerium

“Coming from one who routinely advocates against that freedom of expression that is more hypocrisy than irony. ”

I think you called this sort of thing projection didn’t you RB? You sound like you would have any dissenter from the Red view sent packing, you sound like you would have all the vile free press shut down…..

“(and please, spare me the smug pretentious smilies)”

Sorry to have freely expressed myself.
But jeez RB, you are right, it shouldn’t have been a wee smilie, it should have been ROTFL, you are really very funny sometimes. If only you knew it.
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September 1, 2009 9:08am
Patrick Starr

more American than Aussie slang, made famous by Ted Turner: “Hey, listen. You’ve got to have big kahunas to be in this business”

(nuts – as opposed to cock)
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September 1, 2009 9:14am
gazzmaniac

Regarding climate change –
I read that the Maori party prefer the ACT option of a low level tax to the ETS. In my view this is the only way forward, due to the incredibly complex nature of an emissions trading scheme. It is far simpler, but I would like to know how it will be enforced (and the ETS for that matter).
The ETS will become a rort, and a few people will make a lot of money at the expense of everyone else. I wonder why the greens are supporting it? After all, it really is just another derivatives market, this time trading in things that don’t even really exist at all.

And no, I don’t believe that all if any change in the climate is anthropogenic. Having read the actual IPCC report (as opposed to the first section, which is distilled for policy makers), it is actually pretty easy to discredit. Tree rings for one – any farmer knows that the growth of plants is far more closely tied to the amount of water present than the temperature, yet it is used as a major indicator of past temperatures. Also most of the instrumental measurements are taken in cities, where it certainly has got hotter since the 1850s – mainly due to the increase in population and change in land use. Very few if any weather stations from the countryside are included in the IPCC report.
There is also a 30 year weather cycle in both the Gulf of Mexico regarding hurricanes (there were ‘clusters’ around the 1900s, 1940s, 1970s and the 2000s; in fact there are big parallels between the hurricane that destroyed Galveston in 1906 and Hurricane Katrina in 2006), and in Australia regarding drought. It so happens that parts of Australia are in the middle of such a drought, and it is convenient for many people to blame it on climate change, particularly in relation to the Murray-Darling system. There is also a 30 year cycle of occurrences of major flood events in Queensland – they have happened in the last 2-3 years, and occurred in the 1970s, and 1940s. Many older people remember both of the previous drought events, and some middle aged ones make the link that it has happened before, so are a bit skeptical when it is blamed on CO2. The current events are no different, and in fact are linked to variations in the orbit of the Earth around the sun, called Milankovic cycles. There’s also cycles on the several thousand year scale, which are thought to drive the ice ages.
The low countries in Europe (ie Holland) have been sinking for centuries, and this is entirely due to tectonic forces relating to the large northern icecap over Europe melting 6000 years ago – for memory the phenomenon is called crustal rebound, and is the same effect as the ruler having a “bulge” in it when you overhang it off a desk and put weight on the end of it – there is a high point over the desk. There are tectonic forces causing sinking in London too – the river level is much higher (relative to the surrounding countryside) today than it was even 300 years ago, although nothing on the scale of that in Holland.
Many of these phenomenon have been credited to be all the fault of the terrible awful humans who burn stuff, where in reality they are caused naturally.

Sorry for the long post, but climate change is this generation’s one big ripoff.
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September 1, 2009 9:24am
Redbaiter

“My introduction to the blogosphere was the Herald online.”

The Herald to its credit once tried to run an unmoderated discussion forum. It was deliberately sabotaged by left wingers who objected to it being an outlet for ideas they disapproved of. They flooded it with hundreds of duplicate messages until it became inoperable and the Herald had to shut it down.

Mr Farrar, myself and some other commenters on here graduated from usenet, where the left excelled themselves in viciousness, lies smears and hate. They conducted organised campaigns of letter writing to try and get my ISP to shut me down. At the same time as they started threads entitled “Redbaiter is a convicted child molester”.

I had one of the first blogs on the internet. I shut it and its forum down (what they wanted) because I just got so tired of dealing with the filth and hate of the left.

The left wing blogopshere’s campaign to shut down Kiwiblog (that’s what they really want) is so typical of the laughable inconsistency and hypocrisy that characterizes everything they come up with.

Only the Orwellian left could so shamelessly promote censorship as a declaration of concern for freedom of expression.
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September 1, 2009 9:25am
philu

hey red..!

is this you..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/best-of-wikipedia/

“..Fregoli Delusion

The Fregoli delusion is a rare disorder in which a person holds a delusional belief that different people are in fact a single person who changes appearance or is in disguise.

The syndrome may be related to a brain lesion..

.. and is often of a paranoid nature ..

..with the delusional person believing themselves persecuted by the person they believe is in disguise..”

y’know..!..with yr stated ‘belief’ that the worst examples of bigoted righties here..

..are actually lefties..

..trying to besmirch the ‘good name’ of the right..?

whoar..!..eh..?

(it must be a relief to be able to put a name to it tho’….eh..?)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 1, 2009 9:26am
TripeWryter

Rambling Rant:
The so-called current affairs programmes of TVNZ. On Sunday night Sunday ran a reasonably interesting story of Americans who come here for surgery, because it’s still cheaper than in The Land of The Free and the Almighty Dollar. Then there was a much less interesting story about keeds in trouble in Seednee, and efforts to turn them around. Couldn’t they live up to their boast of ‘Where is a story, we’ll find it’ in New Zealand? Then there was a ‘tribute’ to Kashin, which was a cheapo filler to the end of the programme.
Last night Close-Up ran two ‘animal’ stories. One was the abattoir in south Auckland that sold horse meat to Islanders, who knowingly bought it. The packages were were labelled clearly: ‘Not intended for human consumption’, but which doesn’t mean humans shouldn’t eat it or be forbidden from eating it. So who were being misled? The Islanders who bought it and had a name for it?
Did I miss something?
Horsemeat would not be my fare of choice. But I have known people (immigrants from wartime Holland, Poland, Germany, Russia, for example) who had no qualms about turning to horsemeat during world wars one and two when there was nothing else. One woman, from Berlin, told me how if you boiled horsemeat first, and added ingredients such as onions and garlic, for example, you could turn it into a tasty feed.
The funniest part of the show was watching Matt Chisholm being hugged and kissed. That should be a YouTube classic. Close-Up followed up with yet ANOTHER animal story. The anti-farming, anti-meat eating, Hans Kriek had pronounced that his organisation Save Animals from Exploitation is opposed to Auckland Zoo’s remaining elephant, Burma, getting a companion, and more, that Burma should be sent off to an open-range zoo in Australia where she can amble freely with fellow mastadons.
Mr Kriek lives in Christchurch. The Auckland Zoo is in … well, Auckland.
So, Television New Zealand continues with its obsession for animals, presumably because they rate. What a pity, because I would have preferred to see something on the ETS report. I, like 99 percent of other New Zealanders (yes, I know, unprovable figure …), don’t get it. Perhaps I was expecting too much that Close Up might try to help up out here. Perhaps they don’t know, either, which is more than likely.
Rant over. Time for work.
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September 1, 2009 9:28am
philu

“..Sorry for the long post, but climate change is this generation’s one big ripoff..”

oh..really..?

(this just in..!..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/john-kerry-we-cant-ignore-the-security-threat-from-climate-change/

“..On August 6, 2001, President George W. Bush famously received an intelligence briefing entitled, “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.”

Thirty-six days later, al Qaeda terrorists did just that.

Scientists tell us we have a 10-year window — if even that — before catastrophic climate change becomes inevitable and irreversible.

The threat is real, and time is not on our side.

Facts, as John Adams said, are stubborn things.

Here are a few you need to know: Atmospheric carbon-dioxide levels have risen 38% in the industrial era, from 280 to 385 parts per million (ppm).

Scientists have warned that anything above 450 ppm — a warming of 2 degrees Celsius —

– will result in an unacceptable risk of catastrophic climate change.

The truth is that the threat we face is not an abstract concern for the future.

It is already upon us and its effects are being felt worldwide, right now.

Scientists project that the Arctic will be ice-free in the summer of 2013.

Not in 2050..

.. but four years from now..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 1, 2009 9:31am
Jack5

New topic for a second….

Was there a clue to boxer Tua’s achilles heel in the TV1 Close Up programme at 7.0 last night (Monday)?

I always thought the flaw was his arms, which seem a little out of kilter with his otherwise impressive physique. They look too short for a really top-class boxer.

However, Close Up brought us news that Tongan Aucklanders have another delicacy besides dog – horse meat. Horsey they call a popular dish comprising coconut mixed with horse meat bought from a northern pet-meat abattoir.

It was a popular believe a hundred years ago that horse meat didn’t have enough protein to really sustain a working man (in those days in hard, physical work). Some old folk said this helped the Fritzes when they swept through horse-meat eating France in 1870 and nearly again in 1914-1917.

Could the Tongan bro’s be unwittingly weakening Tua when they entertain him?
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September 1, 2009 9:35am
Chicken Little

Time for work.

Phule – Repeat this 100 times today.
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September 1, 2009 9:36am
Colonel Masters

DPF
I can’t give Karma to RB, Siobhan, Bharmer, it just goes grey.
I’ve asked about this before.

I find this happens when I am logged in. When I am just browsing as an anonymous visitor the karma registers.

Edit to add: Cerium is right, refresh seems to display it ok.
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September 1, 2009 9:37am
Patrick Starr

“It was deliberately sabotaged by left wingers who objected to it being an outlet for ideas they disapproved of.”

You’ll notice there are two extreme left wing commenters (“Ian” and “Gandalf”) who dominate the Herald site and seem to get through moderation regardless of what they say

I used to wonder if they were hacks, working at the Herald?
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September 1, 2009 9:40am
MT_Tinman

TripeWryter Anyone who watches TV (particularly free to air TV) for anything other than mindless “entertainment” deserves all they get.

Face it it is only free to air because no one in their right mind would pay for it.
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September 1, 2009 9:48am
Cerium

I dabbled and then gave up on the Herald and Stuff feedbacks. Too slow to get anything posted. And no real chance of discussing anything. They seem like a tool for the newspapers rather than any attempt at a real public forum.

The comments they get do make me worry about any attempt to rule by referenda.
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September 1, 2009 9:50am
philu

gee red..!..yr 9.25 is pretty much a q.e.d. for my 9.28..eh..?

and..seriously..!

i have never heard anyone saying ‘closing kiwiblog down’ is the endgame..eh..?

f.w.i.w…kiwiblog commenters are a showcase for all that is so wrong/dysfunctional/venal/bigoted with far-right ideologies..

..(and their ‘running dogs’..)

eh..?

far better to expose the festering wound to the sunlight..

don’tyareckon..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 1, 2009 9:51am
Redbaiter

“I used to wonder if they were hacks, working at the Herald?”

The Herald only permits token divergence from leftist viewpoints.

I despise them. Traitors to their profession.

Just a leftist scam posing as a newspaper.
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September 1, 2009 9:55am
gazzmaniac

“..On August 6, 2001, President George W. Bush famously received an intelligence briefing entitled, “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.”

He probably got several intelligence briefings each week.

Scientists tell us we have a 10-year window — if even that — before catastrophic climate change becomes inevitable and irreversible.

and

It is already upon us and its effects are being felt worldwide, right now.

Scientists project that the Arctic will be ice-free in the summer of 2013.

What scientists? What are their names? Are they funded by the Greens? Maybe one extreme scientist who happens to get press? Al Gore isn’t a scientist, he is a politician with a vested interest. The IPCC certainly don’t think so, and I think that they are wrong. It takes a certain amount of arrogance for one species to think that they can alter the climate so much, then even more to think that they could alter it back the other way.

It is a moot point whether we are feeling the results of climate change at all, and even more moot that it is caused by human activity (is anthropogenic). It is even less likely that an emissions trading scheme will have any effect than giving the Russians and EU a lot of money, and further increasing tariffs on our goods. It certainly won’t reduce carbon emissions.

Here’s a thought – Philu reckons that the Arctic will be ice free in 2013. Seeing as we won’t be able to do anything about it anyway (the ETS doesn’t come in properly until 2012, and much later in other countries), why don’t we wait and see if he is right. Then we can make an informed decision on whether that unnamed scientist/s is correct and go from there.

The British Met Service can’t even make their climate model correct for six months’ time, let alone 2099. They have all the resources in the world. They hide their failure by protecting their data under the Official Secrets Act.
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September 1, 2009 9:55am
big bruv

Red

Your 8.18am comment is spot on, I had a quick glance at the offending thread over at the EMPU and Labour party blog site, the overwhelming demand the pinko’s seem to be making is that DPF silence anybody who does not agree with their communist views.

This from the same people who allow Roger Nome to keep spewing out hate and poison.

Lets just say what it is, the left do not want anybody to have the right or ability to speak out against them, this type of thinking led to the EFA and is the driving force behind the Greens hate speech legislation.

I often disagree with DPF but at least he allows those with differing opinions a voice.
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September 1, 2009 10:00am
Patrick Starr

Wanganui Black power member Dennis O’Reilly says; “the ban breaches my bill of rights”

……..oh dear
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September 1, 2009 10:09am
Cerium

It’s all a bit PC though, isn’t it Patrick.
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September 1, 2009 10:11am
gazzmaniac

The sentence in my 9.55 “The IPCC certainly don’t think so, and I think that they are wrong. ” should perhaps read “The IPCC certainly don’t think that the arctic will be ice-free in 2013. I think that their predictions are overly pessimistic too.”

I do think that if climate change/sea level change is happening it will be cheaper and easier to deal with it as it happens (as the Dutch have done for centuries with their dykes) than to even attempt to artificially alter the climate and destroy our economy at the same time.
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September 1, 2009 10:12am
Brian Smaller

Three cheers for Mr. David Farrar, for his work with the Free Speech Coalition, and for running one of the only blogs on the NZ internet where freedom of expression is given the respect it is due.

I was wondering if this was a way of working off demerit points – we all know how receptive DPF seems to be to flattery.
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September 1, 2009 10:13am
big bruv

Have a look at the latest “idea” from Comrade Minto.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/blogs/frontline/2821218/Put-a-cap-on-eye-popping-incomes

This from a man who conned the NZ media and thousands of Kiwi’s into think that he (Minto) was fighting apartheid in 81.
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September 1, 2009 10:23am
TripeWryter

MT-Tinman:
I gave you a (wry) thumbs up.

Patrick Starr:
Mr O’Reilly is not even Maori.
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September 1, 2009 10:31am
Ryan Sproull

Hate to be such a pedant, but poor use of language suggests poor cognitive skills and makes you like like a fucking moron.

Sproull’s Law: any time you hassle someone else’s intelligence, grammar or spelling on the internet, in doing so you will make some hilarious mistake yourself.
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September 1, 2009 10:38am
Rakaia George

f.w.i.w…kiwiblog commenters are a showcase for all that is so wrong/dysfunctional/venal/bigoted with far-right ideologies..

..(and their ‘running dogs’..)

…nothing but a pack of ringleaders!
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September 1, 2009 10:51am
Jack5

Philu, you crazy prick, you must be running out of full stops, so here’s a bucketful to help you out.

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September 1, 2009 10:55am
philu

jack5..in yr 855 comments..

have you ever said anything other than the mindless riffs on’ me’..?

how about digging real deep..?

..and trying to say something of some/any merit/intelligence..?

‘cos..y’know..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 1, 2009 11:12am
malcolm

Redbaiter wrote

The Herald to its credit once tried to run an unmoderated discussion forum. It was deliberately sabotaged by left wingers who objected to it being an outlet for ideas they disapproved of. They flooded it with hundreds of duplicate messages until it became inoperable and the Herald had to shut it down.

Unmoderated forums usually die. They entropy to the point where the same hard-core of posters are having the same slanging matches, over and over. Vitriol goes up and new posters become scarce. The blog then dies. Kind of like a toxic algae bloom; all vigorous and pretty, then a stinking mess.

Unmoderated forums are not a good example of free speech. They usually turn into a good example of who can shout the loudest and stand the most abuse.

I think Kiwiblog comments are some way down this road, but the quality of DPF’s postings keeping the blog popular.

I prefer blogs with a no-abuse policy. Argue the points. No ad hominem. Sure it can be annoying when you want to call the other person a wanker, but you get a better quality of debate and new people joining.

It would be interesting to see a histogram of poster counts for Kiwiblog. For a very popular blog, there seem to be relatively few active posters. DPF, is it possible to see poster stats for a recent period?

cheers

Malcolm
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September 1, 2009 11:21am
Jack5

I have been digging deep, Philu, and find in your posts just fullstops and exclamation marks and slashes (/) and thousands of apostrophes (`) and abbrevisations and and type running down the page. All without creating normal sentences. The posts look like notes taken in an old-time ship’s radio shack without time to fully finish translation from Morse code when the torpedo struck
.
Are you trying to emulate and elaborate on the style of the Beat poets or something?

Post in ordinary language and you will likely get real debate.
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September 1, 2009 11:23am
Jack5

Re malcolm at 11.21

Kiwiblog’s still well out in front in NZ blog readership, so perhaps the sort of non-ad hominem blogs you would like are too dry and dull for the blogosphere. Instead of posting to a sanitised blog such as you advocate you might just as well write a boring letter to Granny Herald.

And if you want more breakdown on Kiwiblog posts, perhaps we could get more information from NZ Herald and Fairfucked NZ on paid-circulation figures rather than flaky “readership” numbers.
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September 1, 2009 11:26am
Redbaiter

“Instead of posting to a sanitised blog such as you advocate you might just as well write a boring letter to Granny Herald.”

Better still, he should start his own blog, run it the way he wants, and demonstrate just how good his ideas are and how much real faith he has in them by pointing out the actual day he expects to overtake Kiwiblog in the ratings.
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September 1, 2009 11:37am
philu

so..that’s a ‘no’ from you..?..jack5..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 1, 2009 11:41am
Redbaiter

“I was wondering if this was a way of working off demerit points – we all know how receptive DPF seems to be to flattery.”

It wasn’t flattery. There is a significant amount of criticism of Mr. Farrar in the blogosphere at the moment. I reckon he just needed to hear something from a counter perspective.

I think it is pathetic the way the right do not stick together and are constantly criticising their own just to pander to ignorant Progressive Neanderthals who fraudulently regard themselves as elitists and the self appointed guardians of good taste.

Their protestations concerning civilized discussion are all a complete con. In the end, nothing would make them happier than to see Kiwiblog disappear.

Who doesn’t know that???
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September 1, 2009 11:45am
malcolm

Kiwiblog’s still well out in front in NZ blog readership, so perhaps the sort of non-ad hominem blogs you would like are too dry and dull for the blogosphere. Instead of posting to a sanitised blog such as you advocate you might just as well write a boring letter to Granny Herald.

DPFs posting are pretty good, hence Kiwiblog is popular. That doesn’t necessarily say much about the popularity of the comments. Hence my question about the posting stats. There seem to be relatively few posters for such a popular blog and there are a fair number who are basically trolls.

And if you want more breakdown on Kiwiblog posts, perhaps we could get more information from NZ Herald and Fairfucked NZ on paid-circulation figures rather than flaky “readership” numbers.

You’ve lost me. What’s your point?

cheers

Malcolm
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September 1, 2009 11:47am
malcolm

Redbaiter wrote

Better still, he should start his own blog, run it the way he wants, and demonstrate just how good his ideas are and how much real faith he has in them by pointing out the actual day he expects to overtake Kiwiblog in the ratings.

Calm down. I was just making a point about how forums often get dragged down. Which is the point you were making.

Some forums do it differently. There, I said it again.

cheers

Malcolm
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September 1, 2009 11:56am
Cerium

“The National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (Niwa) has bought one of the world’s most powerful supercomputers for $12.7 million.

Chief executive John Morgan says the IBM Power 575 supercomputer will be the largest in the southern hemisphere used for climate-change research.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/2815751/12m-for-climate-change-computer

Now we will know if the climate is changing quicker?
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September 1, 2009 12:13pm
Jack5

A: Malcom at 11.47:

The point was you were saying unmoderated blogs die and were also seeking statistics. My point was that boredom kills, and suggested paid-circulation statistics for newspapers would also be interesting. Publishers’ focus on “readership” suggests circulations continue to fall.

I think you are wrong particularly about Kiwiblog’s General Debate string, which by its nature is diverse. David Farrar’s toleration of posters such as Philu, who is really trying to drum up visitors to his own desolate blog, is commendable. And there is a big turnover. Posters come and go, and some reappear.

There is plenty of ad hominen comment, but that is to be expected in robust debate. Readers are not idiots. They can winnow the wheat from the chaff.

A few posters, now including me, make many posts, but that’s similar to the letters to the editor in any newspaper. There are veteran, indefatigable writers to newspapers. As a long-time newspaper reader I followed the letters of some and learned to skip over the letters of others.

Blog readership proves the Farrar approach is successful. I disagree that the Farrar posts are the big attraction. He does an excellent job kicking off topics, and most of his posts are interesting, which is an achievement especially considering he does it seven days a week. However, I think if he shut down posts/comments for a few months, readership measured by visits might fall substantially. He needs the chorus.

B: Philu at 11.41. No it’s not a “No”. I dug and found no gold, just broken sentences like old crockery fragments. Sorry.
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September 1, 2009 12:15pm
philu

“..I dug and found no gold, just broken sentences like old crockery fragments. Sorry..”

gee jack..!

my condolances..

(seeing as i asked you..)

“..how about digging real deep..?

..and trying to say something of some/any merit/intelligence..?”

and just ‘broken sentences like old crockery fragments..”..eh..?

that’s quite sad/pathos-drenched..eh..?

leaning towards poignant..even..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 1, 2009 12:23pm
Jack5

Drat philu (12.23). I’m sorry I lent you those fullstops. They’ll keep you raving on. Can I have them back please?
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September 1, 2009 12:28pm
malcolm

Jack5

Blog readership proves the Farrar approach is successful. I disagree that the Farrar posts are the big attraction. He does an excellent job kicking off topics, and most of his posts are interesting, which is an achievement especially considering he does it seven days a week. However, I think if he shut down posts/comments for a few months, readership measured by visits might fall substantially. He needs the chorus.

Perhaps. I’ve seen plenty of blogs which are as you describe (i.e. ok postings but the quality of comments are what make it) but which nonetheless have died from toxic poisioning by the comments.

Cactus Kate seems to be an extreme example at the other end. Excellent postings but very few comments.

The point was you were saying unmoderated blogs die and were also seeking statistics. My point was that boredom kills, and suggested paid-circulation statistics for newspapers would also be interesting. Publishers’ focus on “readership” suggests circulations continue to fall.

Agreed. Newspapers are getting a kicking by the internet but I think this is more from loss of their traditional advertising than because the blogs produce better content. Most blogs don’t do traditional journalism. Most are commentary on the output of the traditional media. It will be interesting to see what happens when the papers dissappear, as is happening in US cities.

cheers

Malcolm
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September 1, 2009 12:30pm
WraithX

Siobhan said “If it didn’t change we would still be in a fucking ice age.”

As a matter of fact, we ARE in the middle of an ice age (just don’t tell the climate change alarmists). We are in an interglacial period called the holocene which is part of the “current ice age” or the Pleistocene glaciation. Wikipedia has a great article on it here.
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September 1, 2009 12:59pm
Kris K

Brian Smaller 10:13 am,

Three cheers for Mr. David Farrar, for his work with the Free Speech Coalition, and for running one of the only blogs on the NZ internet where freedom of expression is given the respect it is due.

I was wondering if this was a way of working off demerit points – we all know how receptive DPF seems to be to flattery.

One of the things I appreciate about this blog is that there are very few suck’oles amongst the commentators. And neither is it encouraged. And sometimes personal attacks against those who deserve it are at least a relief valve if someone is really pushing the limits. Shouldn’t be the typical response admittedly; but I think the balance, on the whole, is about right.

One gripe I do have is that sometimes, and only very occasionally, I feel that demerits are dished out because someone has ‘pissed DPF off’, and not for the reason given. Having become a victim of this myself just recently, when someone else a few posts above me did the very same thing, and yet received no demerits.

Maybe the fact that I fall into the category of a ‘homophobic religious nutter’ has something to do with it. My recent demerits were, after all, related to tearing a strip off Clarke and Carter regarding their sexual preferences – especially as I had earlier said regarding the ‘La Tomatina’ photos: “To be honest it looks like a celebratory orgy concluding a gay pride march in Italy”.

Oh well, we can’t be expected to please all of the people all of the time.
Having said that though, 10 demerits out of 334 comments isn’t too bad I suppose.
And if I do ‘piss you off’ DPF, I’d rather you just say so, than award me demerits for the ‘stated’ reason.

Gripe over.
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September 1, 2009 1:11pm
freethinker

gazzmaniac (135) Vote: 8 0 Says:
September 1st, 2009 at 9:24 am

Agree with all you say – climate change is happening as it has many times before and I do not doubt human activity has some impact so the real debate should be what proportrion of the change is attributable to human activity and if it is feasable to mitigate. The science is most unclear and the models worked backwards do not produce the results of past events so the pragmatic thing is to prepare for the effects of change. The ETS has the appearance of another shonky trading scheme wheras a Carbon tax can be fiscally neutral whilst still being persausive of change. I fear that with John Keys background he will favour his own opinion that an ETS is preferred just like he haas done over the smacking referendum although hopefully he will learn the cost of his intrangidence at the next election with a greater number of ACT MPs whilst keeping on the opposition benches Liabour and Bradford shites.
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September 1, 2009 1:23pm
dimmocrazy

Over at the Red Rag, Chris Carter is being sycophantic about HIMSELF, believe it or not.
He is asking for what deed he’ll be remembered.
My comment that it would be for shameless troughing and then playing the gay card lasted about 45 seconds before it was deleted!
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September 1, 2009 1:33pm
grumpyoldhori

Nancy Wake, what people seem to forget is Nancy Wake was honoured by the award of the George Medal.

Now men and women were honoured both by the Crown and foreign non Empire countries, but I have not heard of men getting a British award and a kiwi award on top of that.
It should be different for Nancy Wake, why ?

As for her being Maori, Porokoru Patapu was Maori, and he got sod all for taking part in the great escape except for being murdered by the Gestapo.

David is wrong with this, if it is good enough for Nancy Wake to get another award even though she was awarded with the George Medal, should all those who received awards from the crown in Britain and are kiwis also get another award in NZ ?

[DPF: I think her bravery was so exceptional that she deserves it, To be honest if we give her an ward, it is not Nancy that gets the honour but NZ, for her allowing us to honour her]
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September 1, 2009 2:08pm
nickb

Why did Whaleoil merge blogs, and why did he get different authors?

Filled with spam and soft porn already…removing it from my favourites
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September 1, 2009 2:40pm
gazzmaniac

WraithX and Siobahn – you are both right. 22,000 to 6,000 years ago (another Milankovic cycle for those who are interested) was the end of what is considered by most to be the last “ice age,” however looking at the greater geological history, yes we are in an “ice age.”

freethinker – you are quite right, it has happened many times previously, and it is unclear that human activity is a contributing factor.

I do disagree with you on what to do about it. My thoughts are that it’s pretty pointless to try to mitigate it considering how much power we (don’t) have over the climate. Even if we have altered the climate the small amount the Greens say we have, it has taken well over 300 years to do so and it stands to reason that it will take just as long to do something about it. Not to mention how much it will cost.

I would even venture that CO2 isn’t the main driver of the greenhouse effect – it is atmospheric water, and it changes on a daily basis. It is self moderating because excess water in the atmosphere increases the amount of sunlight reflected back into space.
Another thing that climate activists don’t want you to know is that underneath the warmer surface of the ocean, carbon is able to be absorbed in almost limitless quantity, as calcium carbonate is more soluble in cold water. The level at which this occurs is called the Carbonate Compensation Depth. Calcium carbonate is in an equilibrium in surface water (enabling shells, coral and other carbonate structures to be present in the water), which in turn is in equilibrium with dissolved carbon dioxide in the water and in the atmosphere. It acts as a big sink for excess carbon in the atmosphere, and has been seen previously during the Cretacious. Carbon pollution really is a red herring, and I feel that the only reason some are looking at taxing it is because it is more easily measurable.

An ETS will just be another rort that big players can use to make money, and will end up crashing, just like the tulip market. If it ends up starting I recommend everyone here to STAY AWAY from it! You will get BURNED.
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September 1, 2009 2:51pm
Akaroa

How many other readers of Kiwiblog read no further than about the tenth posted comment I wonder?

I’ve found that in most instances anything worthwhile saying on a subject is generally to be found within that bracket. Unfortunately, the further on one goes into subsequent posts the more the input often descends to abuse, belittlement and ‘ho-hum’ type material.

(And the appearance of any input at any level by Philu is a sure indicator that the thread has turned to custard and its defintely time to move on!)

Having said all that I doubt if anyone is still reading this after 70 or so previous posts!!
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September 1, 2009 3:07pm
dimmocrazy

A bit of an aside, but nevertheless interesting in the context of the actual impact of man’s efforts to ‘control’ climate, or its changes, look up this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki
Read the bits that describe the impact on Europe and the US.

This just goes to show that the best way of doing something about these matters is to create strong economic circumstances, NOT to cripple them. It is far easier and certainly more comfortable to have an economy that can deal with the effects of a few degrees in temperature rise (if that occurs, regardless of its cause), than to destroy the economic system in the hope you’ll be able to change anything.
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September 1, 2009 3:08pm
Kris K

Akaroa 3:07 pm,

How many other readers of Kiwiblog read no further than about the tenth posted comment I wonder?

I’ve found that in most instances anything worthwhile saying on a subject is generally to be found within that bracket. Unfortunately, the further on one goes into subsequent posts the more the input often descends to abuse, belittlement and ‘ho-hum’ type material.

To be honest I find it varies throughout the day.
But often good debate/discussion occurs from about 6pm onward, once people are home and have more available time to contribute. With more time often the arguments are better structured ie several posts to build your argument with and thrash out a topic.
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September 1, 2009 3:28pm
big bruv

Bloody great news!

I see that one large Wellington supermarket has backed down on the ridiculous idea of charging their customers for plastic bags, lets hope this is only the start.

No doubt the stupid bloody Greens will demand a law change to make the use of plastic bags illegal but until then we should rejoice in the common sense of the supermarket owner and he power of the free market.
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September 1, 2009 4:22pm
big bruv

Bloody shocking news!

Comrade fucking Key looks like he is going to do a deal with Labour over the ETS.

I wish the prick would just go and join the bastards on that side of the house and be done with it.
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September 1, 2009 4:35pm
grumpyoldhori

[DPF: I think her bravery was so exceptional that she deserves it, To be honest if we give her an ward, it is not Nancy that gets the honour but NZ, for her allowing us to honour her]

Sorry David but you are wrong, you are suggesting her bravery exceeded that of Upham, Apiata, and Matahi, who while deseving of the VC got the DCM.
If we knight Nancy do we also knight all those who got a medal of equal standing to Nancy’s George Medal ?
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September 1, 2009 5:00pm
gazzmaniac

dimmocrazy, you are dead right.
There is no way that people can influence the climate the way that nature can, and a volcanic eruption is but one example of that. We only need one moderate sized eruption (say, Mt Ruapehu) to ruin all the “good work” of any carbon reduction scheme.
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September 1, 2009 5:01pm
Repton

There is no way that people can influence the climate the way that nature can, and a volcanic eruption is but one example of that. We only need one moderate sized eruption (say, Mt Ruapehu) to ruin all the “good work” of any carbon reduction scheme.

Here’s Scientific American on the subject:

There is no doubt that volcanic eruptions add CO2 to the atmosphere, but compared to the quantity produced by human activities, their impact is virtually trivial: volcanic eruptions produce about 110 million tons of CO2 each year, whereas human activities contribute almost 10,000 times that quantity.

By far the more substantive climatic effect from volcanoes results from the production of atmospheric haze. Large eruption columns inject ash particles and sulfur-rich gases into the troposphere and stratosphere and these clouds can circle the globe within weeks of the volcanic activity. The small ash particles decrease the amount of sunlight reaching the surface of the earth and lower average global temperatures.

So, CO2-wise, volcanoes are .01% of human activity. I think we’re aiming for a bigger reduction than that.

[I realise sciam is only a magazine, so if you’ve got a better source, I’m all ears]
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September 1, 2009 5:11pm
gazzmaniac

In the article, Pre-Eruption Vapor in Magma of the Climactic Mount Pinatubo Eruption: Source of the Giant Stratospheric Sulfur Dioxide Cloud, by Terrence M. Gerlach1, Henry R. Westrich2, and Robert B. Symonds at the US Geological Survey, it is calculated that at least 42Mt of carbon dioxide was released in that single event.

The Ministry of Economic Development calculate New Zealand’s gross emissions were 75.6Mt with net removals of 23.8Mt in 2008, meaning net emissions were 61.8Mt.

Mt Pinatubo has been the biggest eruption in my lifetime, however it is not inconceivable that such an eruption could occur here. Lake Taupo’s Hatepe (AD 186) eruption ejected approx 120 cubic kilometres of material, and the Oruanui eruption (24,500 BC) 530 cubic kilometres; contrast that to approximately 10 cubic kilometres from Pinatubo in 1991 and 2.79 from Mt St Helens (a Ruapehu sized volcano) in 1980.

So what I am saying is that if we were to reduce our greenhouse emissions by 10%, all we need is a decent eruption to undo all that.

And on top of that, you have to accept that carbon dioxide is even the gas responsible for the majority of the greenhouse effect – and I dispute that, because water is (and volcanoes emit a hell of a lot of that).
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September 1, 2009 6:37pm
starboard

“Jim Bolger is the biggest spender on domestic travel perks available to former prime ministers and governors-general, racking up $36,000 in expenses in 2008.”

herald….wot an arsehole , smug arse potato farmer… cant stand the prick…takes arrogance to another level.
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September 1, 2009 8:55pm
big bruv

Starboard

I totally agree with you, how on earth did that idiot ever become PM?

Although, I do believe in time Helen Klark will prove to be our biggest trougher by far when it comes to ex PM’s.
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September 1, 2009 9:18pm
starboard

Bolger=prick. Remember during the asian $$ crisis 1991 he wanted to spend 100 mill shifting the beehive a few metres…
fucken spud farmer..problem is he still gets to suck on the public tit until he drops…asshole good for nothing bludger parasite..
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September 1, 2009 10:09pm
Sonny Blount

Volcanic eruptions have quite a significant cooling effect on global temperature. So if we include Ruapehu and White Island in our ETS we could get a few years off somewhere.
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September 1, 2009 10:12pm
transmogrifier

There is a difference between moderating blog comments and message boards for personal abuse and moderating for opinions and beliefs. Personally, this is David’s blog, and if he decided that he didn’t want personal abuse and moderated as such, it’s his decision and hardly an attack of free speech. More like a desire for civility and order in debating delicate issues.

Still, it’s not the quality of comments that keeps me coming back to read, but David’s genuinely insightful look at various political issues. When he was gone, the replacement bloggers were one-note, dull and totally skip-worthy.
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September 1, 2009 10:27pm
Cerium

“So what I am saying is that if we were to reduce our greenhouse emissions by 10%, all we need is a decent eruption to undo all that.”

Strange logic. Eruptions are natural and will happen anyway. Our emissions add to that. If we reduce emissions by 10% that is less than what we would have emitted, regardless of any eruptions.
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September 2, 2009 6:19am
gazzmaniac

Not strange logic at all – the crux of my argument all day is that whatever people do, the natural variation in greenhouse gases is far bigger.
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September 2, 2009 10:12am
MikeNZ

I think that’s what the deniers have been saying all along Gazzmaniac.
That the UN sees this thing as a way to gain hegemony over Nation states no one wants to talk about.

Follow the money, who gets it and how much.
after all it’s only hot air we’re trading.

I don’t trust Key now at all.
lets see if National sign up to the Indigenious peoples treaty or the Lore of the Sea treaty and that will tell us where we are going with the ETS.

Shit I might even give my individual vote to ACT as well the next time.
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September 2, 2009 3:13pm
Kris K

test
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September 13, 2009 2:01pm

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