General Debate 14 September 2009

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billyborker

I fear for America, a nation that is fast losing its way as mumbo jumbo and myth continually over rule science and inquiry.

Creation, starring Paul Bettany, details Darwin’s “struggle between faith and reason” as he wrote On The Origin of Species. It depicts him as a man who loses faith in God following the death of his beloved 10-year-old daughter, Annie.

The film was chosen to open the Toronto Film Festival and has its British premiere on Sunday. It has been sold in almost every territory around the world, from Australia to Scandinavia.

However, US distributors have resolutely passed on a film which will prove hugely divisive in a country where, according to a Gallup poll conducted in February, only 39 per cent of Americans believe in the theory of evolution.

Movieguide.org, an influential site which reviews films from a Christian perspective, described Darwin as the father of eugenics and denounced him as “a racist, a bigot and an 1800s naturalist whose legacy is mass murder”. His “half-baked theory” directly influenced Adolf Hitler and led to “atrocities, crimes against humanity, cloning and genetic engineering”, the site stated.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6173399/Charles-Darwin-film-too-controversial-for-religious-America.html
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September 14, 2009 8:09am
davidp

Keisha Castle-Hughes was on the news last night. She was attending a film festival in Toronto.

It looks like her commitment to a 40% reduction in carbon emissions lasted about three weeks.
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September 14, 2009 8:11am
fredinthegrass

I’m to give a three minute talk tonight on Moscow.
Any helpful thoughts, please!
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September 14, 2009 8:22am
billyborker

Do your own research
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September 14, 2009 8:24am
malcolm

fredinthegrass wrote:

I’m to give a three minute talk tonight on Moscow.
Any helpful thoughts, please!

Amazing subway and some of the best looking women I’ve seen.
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September 14, 2009 8:53am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/the-case-for-legalising-all-drugs-is-unanswerable/

“..While it is certainly possible that legalisation could see more people take drugs, a drug user’s life would be much safer and healthier than at present.

There is no room for speculation here, for we know that a great many users lived highly productive lives before drugs were banned.

Until the First World War, when they were introduced under the banner of national security, there were few controls on drugs in the UK or America.

Cocaine, morphine and heroin could be bought at the local chemist.

Many were users, including William Gladstone, who liked to take a drop of laudanum (an alcoholic tincture of opium) in his coffee before making speeches.

Some users had problems..

.. but none had to contend with the inflated prices, health risks and threat of jail faced by users today..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 14, 2009 9:10am
RainbowGlobalWarming

Well, between Borkie and Philie its regular nut-farm around here ain’t it folks.
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September 14, 2009 9:13am
philu

re moscow..

the stunning colours on the outsides of the churches..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 14, 2009 9:16am
Brian Smaller

re moscow..

the stunning colours on the outsides of the churches..

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Especially after smoking a big doobski, right comrade?
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September 14, 2009 9:19am
getstaffed

…according to a Gallup poll conducted in February, only 39 per cent of Americans believe in the theory of evolution.

Fancy that. Evolution is a theory. With some support, but nevertheless unproven. Perhaps that’s why 61 percent don’t believe it. People like borker find it convenient to have faith that evolution is truth, while lambasting those that believe the creationism is truth. A little hypocritical I should have thought.
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September 14, 2009 9:23am
Grant Michael McKenna

I’m not so sure that I believe in the theory of gravity either.

Edit: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p67.htm
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September 14, 2009 9:26am
philu

you know what smaller..?

i reckon you are one of those miserable souls/bastards..

who gets all bitter and twisted..

at the very idea..that somewhere..someone .. may be having some fun..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 14, 2009 9:27am
big bruv

Did anybody else see the news reports of the Dunedin riots and the refreshing response from one of the senior Police on duty?

The reporter (undoubtedly a pinko) questioned the senior Policeman about accusations of brutality being laid against them, while I cannot recall the cops exact answer it went along the lines of “tough, they should not be out here rioting”

Give that man a medal and an immediate promotion to Commissioner.
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September 14, 2009 9:29am
billyborker

I guess getstaffed is as dumb as the 61% of Seppos who can’t accept evolution, misunderstanding theory.

Gravity is a theory, care to test it by jumping from a bridge?

No hypocrisy in following the scientific method, but where are the falsifiable theories of cretionism? there are none. It always comes down to “god dunnit” while ignoring the lack of proof, or even falsififiable theory, for god.

Faith has no place in enquiry, faith is the opposite of reason, faith assumes everything and proves nothing.
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September 14, 2009 9:30am
Cerium

“People like borker find it convenient to have faith that evolution is truth, while lambasting those that believe the creationism is truth. A little hypocritical I should have thought.”

Who’s the hypocrite? There is substantial evidence backing the scientific theory of evolution. There is only faith in the belief of creation, absolutely no evidence.
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September 14, 2009 9:31am
RainbowGlobalWarming

I’m with Cerium on this one. Religion is the opiate of the masses.
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September 14, 2009 9:33am
getstaffed

broker – yawn. I really have no interest in your anti-God rants. You come back here and start spilling bile, hatred and bigotry. It’s just nasty and toxic. Believe what you will, and accept that not everyone agrees with you.
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September 14, 2009 9:34am
Cerium

“theories of cretionism?”

Creative cretins? Or cretinous creationists?
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September 14, 2009 9:39am
big bruv

Rainbow

I tend to agree with you, and of course, AGW is the opiate of the Green/Communist movement.

BTW, did you see the comments of David Bellamy?
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September 14, 2009 9:39am
getstaffed

Cerium – There are numerious theories on the origin of the universe. All remain unproven. While that situation exists scientific method dictates that all options remain on the table for further research and consideration. For my part, I believe there’s significant evidence of evolution of the species – within limits, but I don’t believe there is sufficient evidence to explain the origin of the universe.

Edit: cerium – lol. i kneed a knew spilling chicker 🙂
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September 14, 2009 9:43am
gravedodger

Is this the time to sheet home the fact that actions have consequences to the perpetrators of the mayhem in Dunedin over the weekend and stop the namby pamby reaction of past years when through diversion and discharge without conviction these stupid people have avoided the real extent of the gravity of their irresponsible behavior. Yes it will be hard on some of them but if the stand is made here and now it just might be a message that can be handed to future students at enrollment that fun is OK but mayhem, disrespect to authority and criminal damage are not OK.
I fully support the authorities for their reaction and feel sympathy for Mayor Chin and the people of Dunedin who have had to endure the boorish and irresponsible behavior
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September 14, 2009 9:44am
Cerium

Those arrested in Dunedin should be dealt to, there was ample warning beforehand that anyone who craps in the streets will end up in the shit.

The city was being blamed for not providing something for the students to do to distract them from their stupidity. There was a risk that would simply have relocated the chaos.

Alcohol is obviously fuel to this fire. But underlying that is an attitude among many young people that they have a right to party any way they see fit (or should that be unfit?). They don’t consider or care about rights of others, especially when full of booze and the cameras are rolling.
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September 14, 2009 9:59am
malcolm

getstaffed wrote

Fancy that. Evolution is a theory. With some support, but nevertheless unproven. Perhaps that’s why 61 percent don’t believe it. People like borker find it convenient to have faith that evolution is truth, while lambasting those that believe the creationism is truth. A little hypocritical I should have thought.

Saying evolution is an unproven theory is extremely disingenuous. There’s 150 years of accumulated evidence supporting this theory and no compelling alternatives. Sure it’s still a theory (always will be), but if you’re holding out for a single “proof”, you’ll never get it. It’s not that sort of science. Has it been proven beyond reasonable doubt? Yes, to people who study it. Has it been proven in the eyes of those who don’t want to understand it because it contradicts their religion? Never will.

I’m assuming you don’t accept evolution based on what you’ve read in the Bible? Do you have any other counter evidence?

Assuming you don’t, does it trouble you that if the Bible said the universe and life came about by means unknown to God, that you’d then have no objection to evolution?

cheers

Malcolm
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September 14, 2009 10:17am
Brian Smaller

you know what smaller..?

i reckon you are one of those miserable souls/bastards..

who gets all bitter and twisted..

at the very idea..that somewhere..someone .. may be having some fun..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Wrong. I was just making an observation. I prefer my fun to be had with a clear head. You want to smoke your head off, go right ahead. Have a great big toke for me.
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September 14, 2009 10:37am
Rick Rowling

“Fancy that. Evolution is a theory. ”

Just like credulous simpletons blindly believe in the *theory* of gravity, despite that it completely fails to explain phenomena like angels’ flight and Jesus’ ascension to heaven. Clearly Intelligent Falling is a better explanation.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512
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September 14, 2009 10:53am
RightNow

phlu, some of us are able to have fun without needing substances. I feel sorry for those who can’t (well actually I feel sorry for all disabled people to be honest).
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September 14, 2009 10:58am
Repton

Fancy that. Evolution is a theory. With some support, but nevertheless unproven.

Do you know what the word “theory” means in science?

Essentially, a theory is an explanation for how something works. Thus, we have a theory of gravity, which explains that two bodies are attracted depending on their masses and the distance between them. We have a theory of electromagnetism, which is is over my head, but which was indispensible to those who designed the computer you’re using now. And we have a theory of evolution, which explains how species change and emerge.

A theory cannot be proven because there is no way to prove that we have observed everything that there is to observe. But this is not the same as saying that a theory is no better than a guess. A theory is an hypothesis that is supported by evidence and has not been disproven. “Unproven” scientific theories abot the natural world are the basis for practically all technological advancement we have experienced.
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September 14, 2009 10:59am
tom hunter

Just a quick reference for those “moderate centre-leftists” who hold the following opinions:

The US protesters a different, they are pawns being stirred up in a bigger more dangerous game…….An uprising of thinly veiled stupidity.

A brief history of The Tea Party Movement

And those who think the following:

They don’t like the government so they want to take it down. They don’t believe in a free democracy, they only want a democracy that does what they want.

might be inclined to consider that representative democracy does not work when the elected representatives vote legislation that they have not even read – and may be intrigued by the following couple of quotes from the article:

…..more people now than ever are reading the legislation that their officials can’t be bothered to read…..Conservatives exhausted the phone lines and keyboards contacting their representatives to alter their vote on the stimulus, cap and trade, and other legislation. Leaving messages with clueless aides wasn’t enough. Receiving canned email responses which did nothing to address voter concerns wasn’t enough.

It only validated what we all knew anyway: Washington wasn’t listening…..

….The tea party movement has challenged the GOP to get back on track or risk losing its grip on the right wing. It’s reminded Democrats that a slick marketing campaign coupled with paid activism isn’t the same as a groundswell of real change….
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September 14, 2009 10:59am
getstaffed

malcolm, It is an unproven theory. There are large gaps and assumptions in the theory. If one has faith that those gaps will be closed in future and/or those assumptions will one day no long be required, then you could justify in your own mind that evolution had been proven beyond reasonable doubt. I note that most people who hold that evolution is proven beyond [their own] reasonable doubt have also dismissed any notion of a spiritual realm or God. That’s fair enough I guess.

I’m assuming you don’t accept evolution based on what you’ve read in the Bible? Do you have any other counter evidence?

Consider the Whale. The phyletic gradualism theory of evolution holds that the whale was a land mammal that moved back to the sea. Being mammals, whales suckle their young. Milk is good, seawater is bad. Yet the female whale has a cunningly design ‘adaptor’ to prevent the infant from ingesting seawater with mother’s milk. How did that evolve? No one knows. Whales would have died out the instant they re-took to the water without such an adaptor which is not found on land mammals. So perhaps during the many millennia that was taken to move its breathing apparatus (mouth) to the top of its head (blowhole) the whale jumped back onto land periodically to feed it’s infants while evolution sorted the nursing adaptor required to suckle the young underwater. There is no evidence of this. Just a theory to explain the evolution of a element essential to whale life. There are countless other gaps and inconsistencies.

I’m not a scientist, but did take some interest in this stuff a few years back. If you’re interested in evolutionary theories, check out punctuated equilibrium and phyletic gradualism. I have more time for the former theory.
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September 14, 2009 11:01am
Cerium

Take the whale. And every other animal, fish, plant and all other creatures and living things. And try to imagine how one entity could possibly design all of them, getting them right first time, in a day or two. Even a year or two or century or too. Surely here is far too much variety and complexity just to be dreamt up out of nothing in a cosmic blink of an eye.
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September 14, 2009 11:37am
backster

BILLY BORKER…..I fear for America, a nation that is fast losing its way as mumbo jumbo and myth continually over rule science and inquiry.

I also fear for America the land of the free, that is fast being led toward the disaster of Socialism by the African. I am how-ever comforted by the faith of the people. God Bless America.
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September 14, 2009 11:51am
malcolm

getstaffed wrote:

If one has faith that those gaps will be closed in future and/or those assumptions will one day no long be required, then you could justify in your own mind that evolution had been proven beyond reasonable doubt.

You’ll never get better than ‘beyond reasonable doubt’. I would respectfully suggest that you’re hanging on by a technicality to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Anyway, look at the trend – more and more evidence is amassing to support evolution (especially from genetics). It’s going to take a massive revelation to turn that on it’s head and ‘prove’ creationism.

We’re getting further from the theory of creation each day. Which is tacitly accepted by many theists when they say “evolution may be right, but God started it all”.

I’m not a scientist, but did take some interest in this stuff a few years back. If you’re interested in evolutionary theories, check out punctuated equilibrium and phyletic gradualism. I have more time for the former theory.

Me neither, but you now appear to be accepting of the basic idea of evolution? I’m a little confused. Anyway “The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution” is getting good reviews so I will read this shortly.

cheers

Malcolm
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September 14, 2009 11:51am
siobhan

I find debates around religion pointless (-ve karma away).

Regardless of what side of the fence you sit on, there is no absolute proof (noone saw God flick a switch and noone saw the whales dive back in the water), so both sides rely on some level of faith in what they believe. And as soon as something becomes a “belief” it becomes almost impossible to change. Therefore, debate between the 2 sides becomes pointless.
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September 14, 2009 11:59am
Rakaia George

Siobhan – I think House said it best: “If you could have a rational argument with religious people, there would be no religious people.”

(Ditto with the -ve’s.)
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September 14, 2009 12:05pm
siobhan

Gotta love House.
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September 14, 2009 12:08pm
malcolm

siobhan wrote

And as soon as something becomes a “belief” it becomes almost impossible to change.

That problem extends well beyond religion as well.

To have a good discussion both sides need an open mind. Then you can have a bit of fun. It’s not that uncommon either – Kiwiblog isn’t too bad in that respect.

Rakaia George wrote:

I think House said it best: “If you could have a rational argument with religious people, there would be no religious people.”

Can’t agree. I’m endlessly amazed by the rational, intelligent (and often vocationally technical) people who are nonetheless utterly absorbed in their religion.

Anyway, blogs wouldn’t exist if we gave up trying to force our opinions on each other!

cheers

Malcolm
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September 14, 2009 12:23pm
RightNow

I’m sure everyone already knows all about the march in Washington on Saturday (US Time). I can’t find exact numbers but suggestions are that up to 1.2 Million marchers attended, primarily protesting against tax and spend policies, Obamacare and socialist policies. There’s a good video as below, but it’s getting very little coverage in the MSM (quelle surprise).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VMXz6xGeqc
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September 14, 2009 12:30pm
Ed Snack

Getstaffed, your running the old “arguement from personal incredulity” line. You don’t see how it could have happened, so surely it can’t ! Of course Whales can’t have evolved from land animals, Getstaffed can’t see how.

Want to try and run the same arguement on eyes, after all, half an eye is useless isn’t it ? Or, why not used “irreducible complexity” and go on about the clotting cascade in mammals, or about the “supposed” evolution of movement using cilia ?

All of these have been used in the same way, to try to find a flaw, and failed. No-one (probably) has though much about how Whales evolved to suckle, but over significant time (like, 100 times the recorded history of Humans) why can’t something evolve, maybe whales started out being semi-aquatic like, say, otters or seals, and evolved from there. We’re not able to “go back and have a look”, so all we can do is guess.

Punctuated equilibria is a phrase invented by Stephen Gould, who always (in my opinion) felt that evolution should be better known as Gouldism rather than Darwinism, and is an invented term. No one really things everything must happen in infinitesimal steps, at some time scale all evolutionary change is “punctuated” and Gould never specified a time scale. He was also a bit unclear on what it really meant. As a corrective to the sometimes implied view that change must always be slow it was a useful concept, obviously at times change can be relatively fast, but it isn’t really a separate strand of evolutionary thought, more of a semi-political dividing line between competing groups of evolutionary theorists. Gould could be a very entertaining writer, but was guilty (IMHO) of wanting things to be a certain way for political reasons and thus bending his theoretical understanding and beliefs around his politics rather than vice-versa. Dawkins suffers from the same problem at times, but of the two, Dawkins has a clearer understanding of evolution.
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September 14, 2009 1:07pm
Repton

No-one (probably) has though much about how Whales evolved to suckle, but over significant time (like, 100 times the recorded history of Humans) why can’t something evolve, maybe whales started out being semi-aquatic like, say, otters or seals, and evolved from there.

Wiki (of course) has an article on the evolution of cetaceans. Here’s a possible ancestor.

(no mention of nipples, though)
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September 14, 2009 1:55pm
kaya

Tom Hunter – “Washington wasn’t listening” I think that may be the greatest trait of the majority of politcians.

In a similar vein, it is so irksome when you receive a computer generated reply from a politician but is in some way understandable as they must receive many pieces of correspondence each day.
What really fucks me off though is when they (or their secretary/pa) answer it personally but it is obvious from the reply you get that they haven’t read past the first line. I emailed all the MP’s politely asking them to support Boscowen’s amendment. I got a reply back from Jeanette Fitzsimon’s person saying:

“Sue Bradford is the Green Party Spokesperson for this particular area
therefore I am forwarding your email to her office. Please forward any
further correspondence on this important issue to her.”

I wasn’t asking for a comment, I was asking Fitzsimons to support a bill!! (I know it was a waste of time but you gotta keep trying!)

A worse one was a number of years ago when I wrote to Judith Tizard with some links to other cities around the world and some of their innovative ways of dealing growing traffic problems. Her response was that as it wasn’t an issue that was within her portfolio she couldn’t address it. At the time she was Minister for Auckland and Associate Minister for Transport…………………. I looked and looked but couldn’t find a Minister for Traffic problems anywhere, maybe they need to create one when they create the Commissioner for Social Inclusion.
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September 14, 2009 1:57pm
Ryan Sproull

Intelligent people simply have intelligent justifications for their beliefs – whatever they are.
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September 14, 2009 1:59pm
philu

right now..get a grip..!

police/fire estimated 60-75,000

(i don’t want you getting over-excited..and imagining yr rightwing revolution is just around the corner..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 14, 2009 2:05pm
stephen

This month the University of California at Berkeley opened a Center for the Comparative Study of Right-Wing Movements

The unfortunate fact is that American academics have until recently shown little curiosity about conservative ideas, even though those ideas have utterly transformed American (and British) politics over the past 30 years. …Professors are expected to understand the subtle differences among gay, lesbian, and transgender studies, but I would wager that few can distinguish between the American Enterprise Institute, the Heritage Foundation, and the Cato Institute, three think tanks that have a greater impact on Washington politics than the entire Ivy League.
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September 14, 2009 2:09pm
philu

and hey..!..yr m.s.m. may have let you down..

but whoar took you there..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/conservatives-march-on-washington/

(what can i say..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 14, 2009 2:11pm
philu

over on frogblog..there are allegations flying around..

that everytime gezza brownlee flies in an aeroplane..

that two seats have to be paid for..?

is that true..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 14, 2009 2:23pm
chiz

getstaffed:Evolution is a theory. With some support, but nevertheless unproven.

The evidence for evolution, from genetics, is overwhelming. Its as well established as the roundness of the earth, or the existence of other stars.

getstaffed:There are numerious theories on the origin of the universe. All remain unproven. While that situation exists scientific method dictates that all options remain on the table for further research and consideration. For my part, I believe there’s significant evidence of evolution of the species – within limits, but I don’t believe there is sufficient evidence to explain the origin of the universe.

Evolution, which is to do with biology, has nothing to do with the cosmology. Christians sometimes like to try and lump them together into one but this is wrong. The fact that organisms evolve has nothing to do with the debate between big bang and steady state cosmologies , or the debate between different varieties of big bang cosmologies.
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September 14, 2009 3:11pm
annie

getstaffed said:
“The phyletic gradualism theory of evolution…..”

And went on to say:
“I’m not a scientist, but….”

You don’t say. It shows, m’dear.

What is it about evolutionary theory that leads every uneducated idiot (scientifically uneducated, that is, and probably inumerate as well) to believe they understand it when they clearly don’t? You don’t understand evolution if you don’t have a good solid grounding in zoology, molecular biology, genetics and geology – and a B average BSc doesn’t cut it, either.

It’s like saying you understand relativity theory if you don’t have good degrees in physics and mathematics.
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September 14, 2009 3:24pm
Grant Michael McKenna

I understand relativity. My second cousin Gaynor has awesome knockers.

Edit: sorry, I thought you meant relative titty.

I’ll be here all week…
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September 14, 2009 4:06pm
RightNow

Loosely on the topic of evolution I saw a very tacky movie a while ago called Idiocracy. The premise was amusing, that by the 26th century the average IQ was close to single figures because stupid people outbred smart people. I’m sure there’s some reason that won’t really happen. Like we’ll stop welfare parenting as a career choice? Won’t we?
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September 14, 2009 4:27pm
getstaffed

What is it about every newbie here (annie, this is you..) who assumes that because of their [implicity claimed] area of special knowledge they can write everone else off as an uneducated idiot. Your post, dear, had a more-than-slightly squiffy air of hubris.

That aside, if evolution can’t be understood by any other than those with the healthy quals that you cite (good solid grounding in zoology, molecular biology, genetics and geology – and a B average BSc doesn’t cut it, either), am I to assume that I, along with the other 99.95% of the world’s population should just blindly accept what you say?
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September 14, 2009 4:40pm
Ryan Sproull

Loosely on the topic of evolution I saw a very tacky movie a while ago called Idiocracy. The premise was amusing, that by the 26th century the average IQ was close to single figures because stupid people outbred smart people. I’m sure there’s some reason that won’t really happen. Like we’ll stop welfare parenting as a career choice? Won’t we?

IQ is demonstrably not simply a question of genetics.
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September 14, 2009 5:10pm
billyborker

getstaffed (3674) 8 6 Says:

September 14th, 2009 at 9:34 am
broker – yawn. I really have no interest in your anti-God rants. You come back here and start spilling bile, hatred and bigotry. It’s just nasty and toxic.

Only someone blinded by religious faith could see support for science, reason and truth as an anti-god rant.

But we all know getstaffed is full of the bile, hatred and bigotry that religion needs to thrive.

nasty and toxic – an excellent metaphor for religion and faith.
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September 14, 2009 5:22pm
Jack5

New topic for a minute…

Evidence of how race-based a society NZ is becoming. What would the liberal elite say if a region could get more taxpayer money for health if it had more white people?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/2860276/Govt-health-funds-linked-to-Maori
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September 14, 2009 5:58pm
Robert Black

I am in China and watch Breakfast and most of TV1 news through xtra.

Just watched the Undie 500 riots.

Living many years away from New Zealand and then watching the country’s news from afar is quite interesting (but still depressing) I have to say and makes the overall picture a bit tinier than when you live there (and mostly get pissed off and frustrated).

Some interesting things I have heard or observed, here first.

Meeting an Italian guy who had lived in Opononi, pretty cool guy and and well travelled, older than me about 50 and impressed me as being quite wise in many of his observations about races and countries around the world.

He said (of New Zealand generally) that he couldn’t understand Kiwis. Here they are living in a beautiful paradise, by the sea, yet all they wanted to do was drink, complain and fight.

And that was the 90’s!

Then I opened a thread showing on the local Beijing blogsite here:

http://www.thebeijinger.com/forum/2008/08/01/New-Zealanders-in-the-Media-Villagelol

A thread mocking Kiwi’s doing the Haka at the 2008 Olympics at the village.

And I have to say, the most sickening thing I saw of the Undie 500 riots was them doing the Haka.

Some things came to mind.

Why do white Caucasian students, with no Maori blood, who don’t really love Maori culture (if they were totally honest) feel that this is the only way they can show they are tough?

I guess it is because New Zealand has now, perhaps since the late 70’s and 80’s, no identifiable Culture. It is a resentful mish-mash of races and lost youth.

Violence? Of course violence is growing in New Zealand. New Zealand is a very violent society and will get far far worse over the years, not better.

Why? Asked the Italain guy?

The only way to give an answer is to say the people as a nation generally are lost, with no cultural identity or direction and are generally very bored.

Those students don’t even know why they want to fight or why they are fighting. They are not even protesting. As they live in a so called Modern Democracy, there is nothing for them to protest against except perhaps boredom and lack of self-identity as a nation, not as a race.

High teenage suicide rate, high school bullying rate, high underage drinking and sex rate, high drug taking rate, all reflecting these notions. Plus being macho, is inherently important in the population, rugby…being physically tough even seems to have seeped into the genes of the women.

This is the future of New Zealand.

How can it be fixed?

Quite simply, it cannot.

After the 70’s, England declined and New Zealand, like a faithful sheep followed about a decade later.

Years ago, there was a murder or killing about once every year or so.

Now, from what I observe from here, it seems as if there is one a week.

Certainly, Chinese people now consider New Zealand to be a violent troubled place, not the perfect picture postcard image they had when I first came to China in 2001.

My advice, sadly, I have none. But when it gets too unbearable, simply leave.
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September 14, 2009 6:04pm
Kris K

annie 3:24 pm,

What is it about evolutionary theory that leads every uneducated idiot (scientifically uneducated, that is, and probably inumerate as well) to believe they understand it when they clearly don’t? You don’t understand evolution if you don’t have a good solid grounding in zoology, molecular biology, genetics and geology – and a B average BSc doesn’t cut it, either.

It’s like saying you understand relativity theory if you don’t have good degrees in physics and mathematics.

The arrogance of some people is truly astounding.
I guess Annie, using your logic, we should all just accept the anthropogenic global warming lie presented by such great scientists as Al Gore as fact and make our carbon tax payments to our favourite charity, the UN, without question.

Oh yes, and if ‘evolution’ is science then my great grandfather was pond scum.
Evolution: the greatest lie of all human history.
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September 14, 2009 6:07pm
malcolm

annie wrote

You don’t understand evolution if you don’t have a good solid grounding in zoology, molecular biology, genetics and geology – and a B average BSc doesn’t cut it, either.

Annie, aside from the fact that your posting is 100% condescension and 0% content, your assertion is also wrong.

Anyone can have an understanding of the theory of evolution. It’s a simple yet powerful idea.

Also, how much molecular biology did Charles Darwin (1809-1882) know? Can you remind me when DNA was discovered?

cheers

Malcolm
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September 14, 2009 6:15pm
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/clamour-grows-for-heroin-on-the-nhsexperts-call-for-national-network-of-shooting-galleries-after-hailing-successful-trials/

“.. A group of government-appointed drug experts will call for a nationwide network of “shooting galleries” ..

.. to provide injectable heroin for hardened drug addicts across the country.

A pioneering trial programme prescribing heroin to long-term addicts has shown “major benefits” in cutting crime and reducing street sales of drugs.

Results of the programme are to be presented at a conference in London tomorrow.

An expert group set up by the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse to assess the programme ..

.. has concluded that the approach should be adopted nationwide.

The prescription of heroin to hardened addicts is one of the most controversial in medicine.

Giving addicts drugs such as heroin on a maintenance basis, rather than weaning them off them..

.. turns existing policy on its head..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 14, 2009 6:22pm
Nomestradamus

Philu:

When are you launching your “big commercial model news/opinion site” in collaboration with your American contacts? You weren’t having us on, were you?
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September 14, 2009 6:45pm
Brian Smaller

Forget the waste of space people like Philu and watch Campbell Live tonight and see Jacob Katoa – a person with a real disability who doesn’t know how to quit. He was in my rep team last year. What a great kid with great parents.
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September 14, 2009 6:46pm
Kris K

chiz 3:11 pm,

The evidence for evolution, from genetics, is overwhelming. Its as well established as the roundness of the earth, or the existence of other stars.

You have got to be kidding!
Of all the examples to cite you choose ‘genetics’ as your evidence for evolution?

One of the biggest stumbling blocks for biological evolution is DNA. I mean really; DNA is the arrow through the heart of evolutionary thinking.
DNA is actually incontrivertible evidence that there is an intelligence behind ALL life.
There are many scientists who actively support Intelligent Design based purely on the science, many with no religious affiliations at all.
Just Google it – it’s all there, the numbers that support ID is simply astounding.

You’re now getting some desperate ‘evolutionists’ grabbing at such straws as ‘Alien Seeding’ to justify life on earth. I mean, how desperate do you have to get? Face it guys, you’ve lost the battle – you just refuse to acknowledge it.
But fear not, we’re here to help you get through the withdrawal process.
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September 14, 2009 6:52pm
Cerium

Who could this look like? http://wpcomics.washingtonpost.com/client/wpc/po/2009/09/08/
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September 14, 2009 7:20pm
Cerium

“Oh yes, and if ‘evolution’ is science then my great grandfather was pond scum.”

On the right track, it just takes a few more generations than that.
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September 14, 2009 7:22pm
chiz

kris k:You have got to be kidding! Of all the examples to cite you choose ‘genetics’ as your evidence for evolution?

yes. The evidence is overwhelming.

kris k:One of the biggest stumbling blocks for biological evolution is DNA.

Complete and utter bollocks. Clearly you have no real familiarity with the genetic evidence.

kris k:DNA is actually incontrivertible evidence that there is an intelligence behind ALL life.

Hogwash. The DNA evidence has too much ad hocness to be designed.

kris k:There are many scientists who actively support Intelligent Design based purely on the science, many with no religious affiliations at all.

Name them. Since there are, in your words, many such scientists with no religious affiliation name more than one.

kris k:Just Google it – it’s all there, the numbers that support ID is simply astounding.

The numbers do no such thing.
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September 14, 2009 7:36pm
Kris K

chiz 7:36 pm,

The DNA evidence has too much ad hocness to be designed.

Interesting comment. You should take it up with Guy that developed the software.

If DNA suffers from “ad hocness” then name something/anything that man has developed that even vaguely (and I do mean vaguely) approaches the complexity of DNA in its coding and ability to self replicate.

And if it is so ‘ad hoc’ why can’t we just whip some up in the lab. Heck, any 6th form chemistry student should be able to do it from the tone of your comment.
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September 14, 2009 8:11pm
Kris K

Cerium 7:22 pm,

“Oh yes, and if ‘evolution’ is science then my great grandfather was pond scum.”

On the right track, it just takes a few more generations than that.

I thought, if anyone, that you’d fall for my deliberate bait. Hang on, I’ll just get another hook.

But being serious for a mo’ Cerium, the fact that so few people actually engage their God-given intellect when considering the evidence really does cause me to think that perhaps their great grandfathers (and great grandmothers) were in fact pond scum. Maybe that’s being unkind to pond scum though.
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September 14, 2009 8:22pm
Cerium

Well, I don’t have a problem thinking I could be biologically linked to pond scum.

Kris, I have seen absolutely no evidence of intelligent design. It is purely a belief. There is no science. (that I have seen).
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September 14, 2009 8:31pm
Jack5

Re Robert Black at 6.04: “…Chinese people now consider New Zealand to be a violent troubled place…”

A bit like Tibet or Sinkiang where the Tibetans and Uighurs are suffering far more than being kicked around by Han Chinese. They make the Dunedin student flare-up look like a Sunday-school picnic.
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September 14, 2009 8:42pm
transmogrifier

Re: how a whale evolved from a land mammal. The problem that most laymen have when imagining that is all they can visualize is the start point and the end point. Trouble is, the start point, the land mammal, is naturally envisaged as something like a cow or elephant or something else we can see today, and so people are forever stuck with the irrelevant question, how did a cow become a whale? Add to this a general lack of appreciation for the time scales involved, and a lot of people simply write it all off as improbable simply because they can’t imagine it happening.

For me, one only needs to look at a hippopotamus to see a possible pathway for a land mammal evolving into a water dwelling creature.
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September 14, 2009 8:45pm
Southern Raider

Speaking of pond scum.

Just saw on Campbell Live an Invercargill woman who ripped off locals believing she was raising money for a Southland toddler who has cancer.

The bitch should be hung drawn and quartered down Dee Street.

And DPF doesn’t think it is morally acceptable to have the death sentence. This woman is a definite candidate.
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September 14, 2009 8:50pm
transmogrifier

Questions:

1. Do individuals of a population exhibit variation in certain characteristics?
2. Do some of these characteristics help them to successfully gain resources?
3. Do you agree that those with characteristics better suited to the present environment will be more likely to successfully gain resources?
4. Do you agree that the more likely you are to successfully gain resources, the more likely you are to leave behind offspring?
5. Do offspring consistently display characteristics from their parents?
6. Do environments change, or can organisms move environments?

If you answered yes to all of these questions, congratulations, you believe the theory of evolution.
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September 14, 2009 8:54pm
chiz

kris k:Interesting comment. You should take it up with Guy that developed the software.

No idea what you mean here. Did you mistype it?

kris k:If DNA suffers from “ad hocness” then name something/anything that man has developed that even vaguely (and I do mean vaguely) approaches the complexity of DNA in its coding and ability to self replicate.

I’m not sure precisely what you’re asking for here. If its concision then the lambda-calculus allows very concise functions that ‘replicate’. The LISP programming language, loosely based on the lambda-calculus also allows for self-replicating programsand is considerably more complex thanything that occurs in molecular biology.

kris k:And if it is so ‘ad hoc’ why can’t we just whip some up in the lab. Heck, any 6th form chemistry student should be able to do it from the tone of your comment.

Not sure what this has to do with my comment which you may nor have understood. If we look at the specific details of individual genes and how we they evolved we find many cases that are ad hoc and unplanned. This says nothing about creating life ab initio.
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September 14, 2009 8:54pm
Robert Black

@Jack5

There are 1.4 billion people in China, 22 provinces and a large number of ethnicities.

New Zealand, population 4 million.

Spoon fed information about a couple of flare ups in a couple of those provinces by your reliable uncontrolled New Zealand news media, but in fact the violence was initiated first by the extremist Tibetan and Uighur minority groups and instigated for publicity (including feeding fake information to the media via internet and so on).

Ever been to Tibet, mainland China or Xinjiang? Ever read fully about the history of China, Tibet or Xinjiang?

Yeah right.

In my post I forgot to mention the boy racers.

The difference between China and New Zealand police is, that shit gets stopped here quickly. For example Uighurs running down the street with hand made machetes and Tibetans smashing up local shops.

But please, feel free to bury your denial head in the sand and go,

“Bahhhh! I don’t think those students should act that way!! What is happening to our society!!”

What is happening to New Zealand society is that it is f up.

You are welcome to it. Swim in your denial, attacking other countries and saying it is fine.

Good luck.

🙂
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September 14, 2009 9:01pm
Jack5

Robert Black at 9;01:”….Ever been to Tibet, mainland China or Xinjiang? Ever read fully about the history of China, Tibet or Xinjiang?”

Robert, been to China, but not Tibet or Sinkiang…

On the history. Tibetans have the moral right to be an independent state, and China’s move into Sinkiang and repression of the indigenous Turkic people would be terrible imperialism if done by a Western power. The Chinese are trying to swamp Tibet and Sinkiang with Han Chinese, just as they have done with Inner Mongolia, where ethnic Mongolians are down to 10 per cent of less of the population.

Mongolia proper, which is really Outer Mongolia, is still ethnically Mongolian because White (political rather than racial sense) Russians first, then Red Russians, expelled Chinese occupiers in the early 1920s than backed Mongolia up as an independent state for the next seven or so decades. If you read the history you will note that some of the best troops in the White Russian-led Mongolian Army were cavalry from West Tibet. Tibetans, like Mongolians, follow a form of Buddhism that encompasses sound and fury and isn’t hostile to violence. They are genetically, culturally, linguistically, and religiously distinct from Chinese. Mongolians regard themselves as distinct from Chinese, too.

On law and order: this is easy in traditional Han China under totalitarian government. Just sell the kidneys of the unruly then shoot them.

Students spirited enough to riot occasionally as in Dunedin aren’t necessarily an indication of a sterile or dying culture. Remember what Graham Greene wrote in the Third Man Script. Dialogue to the effect that Renaissance Italy, rife with murder and mayhem, gave the world Michaelangelo and so much more in art, science, music. Orderly, peaceful Switzerland gave the world the cuckoo clock.
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September 14, 2009 9:39pm
getstaffed

Jack5 @ 5:58. The ETS. I’m pissed off. It has been said that lotto is a tax on stupidity, but I believe that the ETS now holds that claim to fame. All over NZ, unthinking kiwi’s have been encouraged to feel slightly guilty about dumping plastic bags et al and as a result have turned a blind eye to the stealth-taxation scam that is the ETS. Grrrr.
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September 14, 2009 9:48pm
Robert Black

@Jack5

Perhaps the Maori have the moral right to claim an independant state based upon New Zealand history?

Shall we give them the North Island? That would be the overly PC nature of New Zealand thing to do.

China has what I would consider a fair dictatorship and a free market. Things get done here. The streets are safe. Violent crime is low. Serious criminals get shot. So what?

You won’t see much stupidity in China. You won’t see students holding Undie 500’s. No, they wouldn’t be shot but they would be jailed yes. So what?

Grocery prices are not high as fruit and vegetables and meat and dairy products are allowed to be sold whenever and wherever. Markets, the streets.

New Zealand is a free market democracy right? A predominately farming economy?

How about the cost of fruit, vegetables, meat and dairy products in New Zealand? One would expect them to be very low.

You obviously spend a bit of time at the local library or “reading” books of history. Do you read Japanese history books as well? The ones denying any attrocities by Japanese soldiers?

Before you make comment on an area of the world please live there for at least three years. It will give you a chance at least to be more objective and wise and not follow what you read or hear via media and textbooks blindly.

I graduated from Otago university in 1987. I lived on Castle Street and attended the then notorious Selwyn College.

Drunken students on pub-crawls puking in front of elderly ladies or walking on cars was pretty extreme then.

When we got drunk we wanted to have fun. We didn’t want to light fires and throw bottles at the police.

Why would we?

Chinese studnets are very proud of their country so that shit wouldn’t happen here anyway.

I suppose back in my student days I was proud to be a Kiwi too. And proud to be at otago university.

Those little boys don’t look proud of anything to me. They look like ridiculous lost unhappy youngsters who are drunk.
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September 14, 2009 10:05pm
Jack5

Robert, I guess the ethnic Mongolians of Inner Mongolia would have been pretty pleased with the equivalent of the Treaty of Waitangi, and more so with the compensation and apologies now being paid and made to Maori tribes. Perhaps the Tibetans and Uighurs would be happy with Waitangi equivalents now.

I’ve read about Japanese atrocities in Nanking and Manchuria, but not Japanese accounts (if there any apart from denials).

You can still be proud to be a graduate of Otago University. Yes, young NZ has a booze problem. Partly this comes from overly lax liquor controls, but sometimes it’s suggested there may be genetic predispositions to alcohol problems as well as cultural causes for alcohol abuse. Cultures which have had alcohol longest seem to have adjusted best: Chinese, Italians, Jews, for example. Perhaps it’s because they’ve had it long enough for alcohol-prone stock to die out, like Li Bai/Li Po.

You see alcohol problems across northern Europe from Ireland and Scotland to Scandinavia and Russia, and among the indigenous people of the Americas, and among the Polynesians, for example. With so much Celtic and Polynesian blood in NZers, perhaps we’re vulnerable to having more than our share of booze problems. Having said that, strong culture can overcome any such predisposition. Tighter booze laws, higher age limits, and increased duty would help, too, IMHO.
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September 14, 2009 10:30pm
racer1

“Kris K
chiz 7:36 pm,

The DNA evidence has too much ad hocness to be designed.

Interesting comment. You should take it up with Guy that developed the software.

If DNA suffers from “ad hocness” then name something/anything that man has developed that even vaguely (and I do mean vaguely) approaches the complexity of DNA in its coding and ability to self replicate.”

Fuck me, I thought we were years past evolution denial here. For a start your challenge to name something man made that is as complex is just ridiculous and has no relation to the point argued.

How about you explain redundant DNA for us?
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September 14, 2009 11:34pm
racer1

“transmogrifier

Questions:
…………….

If you answered yes to all of these questions, congratulations, you believe the theory of evolution.”

But the universe was created only 6000 years ago, thats not nearly enough time for any of that to happen!! 😛
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September 14, 2009 11:38pm

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