General Debate 26 September 2009

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Pete George

Banish the Cyber-Bigots?

“Ethicist Clive Hamilton calls this a “belligerent brutopia.” “The Internet should represent a great flourishing of democratic participation,” he argues. “But it doesn’t. . . . The brutality of public debate on the Internet is due to one fact above all — the option of anonymity. The belligerence would not be tolerated if the perpetrators’ identities were known because they would be rebuffed and criticized by those who know them. Free speech without accountability breeds dogmatism and confrontation.”

But the challenge of this technology is not merely an isolated subculture of hatred. It is a disorienting atmosphere in which information is difficult to verify or critically evaluate, the rules of discourse are unclear, and emotion — often expressed in CAPITAL LETTERS — is primary. User-driven content on the Internet often consists of bullying, conspiracy theories and racial prejudice. The absolute freedom of the medium paradoxically encourages authoritarian impulses to intimidate and silence others. The least responsible contributors see their darkest tendencies legitimated and reinforced, while serious voices are driven away by the general ugliness.

http://tinyurl.com/ydw5fty
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September 26, 2009 8:06am
Whafe

Hoping you are all having a great start to your weekend, knowing it will be an even better weekend knowing that Sue Bradford is a gone burger, fantastic…. The landscape is far more pleasant with Sue & Helen GONE!
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September 26, 2009 8:07am
cha

The landscape is far more pleasant with Sue & Helen GONE!

Bingo!, caps and all.
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September 26, 2009 8:18am
whalehunter

Geeral Debate…. Probibly not a mistake.
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September 26, 2009 8:25am
Pete George

Probibly is.
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September 26, 2009 8:29am
whalehunter

yea, a ‘j’ would have sealed it.
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September 26, 2009 8:38am
gravedodger

Maybe karma, thanx for the heads up, very droll
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September 26, 2009 9:09am
Tassman

She’s busted and the rest of the psycho squad has to go from influencing social policies to the detriment of men’s health and wellbeing and young men’s indoctrination to violence and suicide.
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September 26, 2009 10:21am
backster

“Geeral Debate “………Go easy our host was bedazzled by the wearable arts last night, and the celebratory sequel.
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September 26, 2009 11:20am
getstaffed

Pete George – The author of that piece is looking a new communication paradigm through an old lense. That lense says that credibility/accountability requires physical and personal presence. They need to wake up and understand that the rules of engagement, debate and discourse are changing.
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September 26, 2009 11:33am
side show bob

Yeah guys Sue might be gone but the bullshit she and the vast majority of feeble minded politicians brought in still stands. Until this stupid law is repelled and fucking government gets out of the homes of the good citizens of this country the better off we all shall be. Refocus your anger on the arrogant politicians that think democracy only applies to election day.
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September 26, 2009 11:42am
philu

yet another death knell for the animal exploitation industries..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/high-tech-food-cocoon-cooker-grows-meat-in-your-kitchen-photos-video/

“..The Cocoon Cooker is the weirdest way to go green yet.

The controversial cooker could ‘grow’ meat and fish in your kitchen by heating pre-mixed food packets containing animal muscle cells, oxygen, and nutrients.

A Chia Pet for steak, in short.

Richard Hederstierna of the Lund Institute of Technology, who designed the Cocoon concept and won first place at the Electrolux Design Lab Competition,

.. told the Daily Mail the device could, “create 100 per cent pure meat without the need for animals to be killed .. and with no risk of contamination.

It will change everything.”

(oo-err..!..eh..?..bloody hands bob..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 12:00pm
side show bob

“in which information is difficult to verify or to critically evaluate”, so Pete who’s information do we take as gospel. Let me guess. The old guard is pissed Pete, their dominance over information, propaganda, is challenged by the Internet. I find it rather amusing that the least responsible contributions are legitimated and reinforced while serious voices are driven away. Sounds like a crock of shit to me Pete. I take it the “serious voices” are the anointed or old guard. The truth generally gets through Pete despite the least responsible contributors, perhaps that’s the real issue.
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September 26, 2009 12:03pm
side show bob

Cool Philu, I would send the Lund Institute an email, they might be able to brew some much needed brain cells for that vacuum between your ears.
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September 26, 2009 12:09pm
philu

oh..ok bob..!

it is your ‘death knell’..after all..

do with it what you will..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 12:27pm
philu

meanwhile…

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/marc-faber-capitalistic-system-will-collapse/

“..In this month’s issue of The Gloom, Boom & Doom Report, Marc Faber issued one of the gloomiest, most depressing takes on the financial crisis and its impact.

Faber said that the future, “will be a total disaster, with a collapse of our capitalistic system as we know it today, wars..

.. massive government debt defaults .. and the impoverishment of large segments of Western society.”

Keep in mind this is coming from a man who writes something called “The Gloom Boom & Doom Report.”

But Faber’s analysis, however macabre, is widely followed.

He upheld his prediction in an interview with Yahoo’s Tech Ticker..

.. arguing that, with the government’s stimulus package..

..”the problems haven’t been solved, but they’ve been postponed.”

Faber added that he has a “high confidence prediction” that “total collapse will come.”

Yikes..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 12:29pm
Don the Kiwi

Shitodear – first comment at 12.00 p.m. phil.

Must have been an extra good toke last night …..eh……eh….???

Have to agree with SS Bob.
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September 26, 2009 12:35pm
philu

hardly darling..

already 18 stories/links on whoar..

http://whoar.co.nz/

yoga has been done..

the dogs have been walked

and my first comment was on the ‘herald onbradford’ thread..

early this morning..

a morning wheni arose at 6.30 am..

but yes..it was a nice toke last night..

(thanks for asking/caring..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 12:52pm
skyblue

I see Poland has legislation to castrate rapists, Fritzells etc.

‘Poland’s parliament has approved a law making chemical castration obligatory for convicted paedophiles and perpetrators of incest, sparking criticism from human rights groups.’

Bring it on in NZ, nothing like the thought of you twig & berries being interferred with by the state to make you think twice about doing these henious crimes on minors, women etc.

For the full article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/6232530/Poland-approves-forcible-castration-for-paedophiles.html
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September 26, 2009 3:48pm
Fletch

“Mr Bush was wrong, Iran won’t build WMDs”

YEAH RIGHT
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September 26, 2009 4:11pm
getstaffed

From Stuff:

One in five Kiwis are medically obese and their care places a hefty strain on the public health service. Surgery is an option – but should taxpayers cough up for people who can’t stop eating?

I can’t be bothered putting the rubbish bin up to the road each. There should be a state-funded service to do this for me.

I’m usually a bit tired to collect the KFC. Perhaps the state could help there too.

I have an unfettered right to choose whatever I want. The state has a moral obligation to sort out any consequences.
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September 26, 2009 4:39pm
Hurf Durf

IRAN’S NUCLEAR PROGRAMME IS PEACEFUL IRAN’S NUCLEAR PROGRAMME IS PEACEFUL IRAN’S NUCLEAR PROGRAMME IS PEACEFUL IRAN’S NUCLEAR PROGRAMME IS PEACEFUL IRAN’S NUCLEAR PROGRAMME IS PEACEFUL BAWWWWWWWWWWW

[Keith Locke mode off]
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September 26, 2009 4:45pm
side show bob

getstaffed, speaking of health, I see the Mac Daddy administration is going to charge $1900 per person for the government health care scheme. Now here is where it gets hilarious, those that refuse to pay will get charged with a misdemeanor and could get a $25000 fine or spend a year in jail, only in America. The socialists like all socialists the world around soon lose the plot, me thinks they are going to need a lot more jails.
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September 26, 2009 5:04pm
getstaffed

those that refuse to pay will get charged with a misdemeanor and could get a $25000 fine or spend a year in jail, only in America.

Interesting. But it’s not really too different here in NZ. The $1900 is buried in our taxes.. and quess what happens to anyone who refuses to pay those!
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September 26, 2009 5:34pm
philu

btw bloody hands bob..

you do know the growing-meat-technology is jumping ahead in leaps and bounds..eh..?

on a number of fronts..(whoar has details/links..)

those that get it right..will hit pay-dirt..

meat..without the environmental damage/cruelties to animals in the model you ‘work’..

is a very powerful product..

(imagine the branding/packaging…real ‘cruelty-free-meat’..

(cheaper to produce than yours/tasting better/more ‘flavours’).

.sitting on the supermarket shelves..next to yours..?..

..the guaranteed-pain/suffering meat…

now..if that dosen’t send an economic shiver down your spine…

you are fucken brain-dead…

eh..?

you are in what is known as a ‘twilight-industry’..

..bloody-hands-bob..

and the days of you and yours profiting from the abuse/suffering of sentient beings..

are numbered..

eh..?

it won’t happen tomorrow..(as they say).

…but it will happen..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 5:35pm
getstaffed

it won’t happen tomorrow..(as they say).. but it will happen

As distinct from you quitting your parasitic lifestyle: I wish it would happen tomorrow, but it won’t happen.
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September 26, 2009 5:38pm
Hurf Durf

Ewwww, artificial GM foods. No way that could ever be acceptable in Clean Green Aotearoa.
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September 26, 2009 5:43pm
philu

and there goes our economic raison d etre ..as a country..eh..?

why would they need ours..from the other side of the world..(oil running out..?..people..?..)

..when they can grow their own in their kitchens..?

or buy locally-made packages at their local supermarket..?

does anyone else reckon we should really get a rattle on..?

with the economic transformation we have to go through..?

as a country..?

i mean.. ‘really..!’..

and of course…food is going to be the focus of a lot of attention..

and that meat/fat/cheese being cancer-causing (bowel-cancer..?..anyone..?..)

will also focus a lot more people..

and even more guarantees the end of our animal-ride..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 5:43pm
Pete George

# getstaffed “They need to wake up and understand that the rules of engagement, debate and discourse are changing.”
# side show “Let me guess. The old guard is pissed Pete, their dominance over information, propaganda, is challenged by the Internet. ”

I agree that the rules of engagement have changed dramatically, and the old guard is finding it hard to adjust. There are some major benefits of “the new way” – it offers alternatives – but it doesn’t mean the new is all good and the old was all bad. And unfortunately some of the old good is being lost.

I think we have to keep looking for what is an improvement and what is not, and trying to make the best out of the new way. It is now easier for extremes and nutters to have a louder voice and to try to shout down more reasonable voices. But it is also easier for the moderate majority to stand up and make sure they have there fair share of the medium.
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September 26, 2009 5:44pm
Hurf Durf

Wouldn’t that mean less government money to dole out on wasters like you, phool?

Be careful what you wish for.
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September 26, 2009 5:45pm
philu

have you ever discussed an issue ..there..hurf..?

is it because you can’t..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 5:54pm
Hurf Durf

yeah whatev..

i discus stuff all day like a pro..

like when you challenged me on big dairy….and 9/11..

..and i just went ..”meh!”..

so who you calling a coward..

..eh..?..

Phool(animalcreampies.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 5:59pm
philu

have another sherry there..hurf..it is saturday night..after all..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 6:07pm
Hurf Durf

TV3 News fawns over poor widdle Bawwy doing his bestest against Iranian aggression and waxes lyrical over premier destroyer Sue Bwadford. Watch out for the nasty “Right Wing Blogger” David Farrar, children! He may suck your blood!

Take a long hike off a tall cliff, TV3.
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September 26, 2009 6:10pm
village idiot

Hurf Durf – is that an onomatapaea for an up-chuck?
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September 26, 2009 6:20pm
philu

here you are bloody hands bob..

another ‘death knell’ for you..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/is-eating-a-plant-based-diet-a-cure-for-cancer/

“..Experts are saying a plant-based diet is not only good for our health .. but it’s also curative of the very serious diseases we face.

I have been working closely recently with a few extraordinary nutritional researchers, and I find that the information they have compiled is quite eye opening.

Interestingly, what these highly esteemed doctors are saying is just beginning to be understood and accepted..

.. perhaps because what they are saying does not conveniently fit in with or support the multi-billion dollar food industries ..

.. that profit from our “not knowing.”

One thing is for sure: we are getting sicker and more obese than our health care system can handle..

.. and the conventional methods of dealing with disease often have harmful side effects .. and are ineffective for some patients.

As it is now, one out of every two of us will get cancer or heart disease and die from it —

– an ugly and painful death as anyone who has witnessed it can attest.

And starting in the year 2000, one out of every three children who are born after that year will develop diabetes —

–a disease that for most sufferers (those with Type 2 diabetes) .. is largely preventable with lifestyle changes.

This is a rapidly emerging crisis, the seriousness of which I’m not sure we have yet recognized.

The good news is, the means to prevent and heal disease seems to be right in front of us; it’s in our food.

Quite frankly, our food choices can either kill us — which mounting studies say that they are..

or they can lift us right out of the disease process ..

.. and into soaring health.

In the next few months, I will share a series of interviews I’ve conducted with the preeminent doctors and nutritional researchers in the fields of their respective expertise.

And here it is straight out: they are all saying the same thing in different ways .. and through multiple and varying studies:..

.. animal protein seems to greatly contribute to diseases of nearly every type; ..

.. and a plant-based diet is not only good for our health..

.. but it’s also curative of the very serious diseases we face..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 26, 2009 6:37pm
william blake

,,castration a good idea for nonces and rapists, No its not: it would just fast track them to being murderers, to silence their victims.
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September 26, 2009 6:44pm
Hurf Durf

If I don’t get cancer from meat, I’ll get it from my mobile phone or from walking down the pavement.

is that an onomatapaea for an up-chuck?

Allow me to elucidate on the etymology of Hurf Durf: In modern internet vernacular, a generic all-purpose phrase that roughly equates to “duh,” and can be used in a variety of situations to indicate stupidity.

Person #1: That horrible website somethingawful.com stole my intellectual property by taking pictures that I had on MY WEBSITE and manipulating them in offensive ways with Photoshop! I shall send them a legal threat posthaste!

Person #2: (summarizing Person #1’s statement for others) HURF-DURF INTERNET LAWSUIT

Besides, my up-chucks sound like HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRK COUGH COUGH SPIT. You should probably go yourself checked out if you’re making durf noises.
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September 26, 2009 6:50pm
Luc Hansen

The IAEA has found that Iran’s nuclear programme largely complies with the NPT provisions. In particular, there is no evidence Iran is headed down the path of nukes. The complicating factor is the insistence of the current western nuclear powers that Iran must prove it is NOT aiming to produce nuclear weapons. As we all know, it is almost impossible to prove a negative.

Be that as it may, why are we paranoid about Iran, a country with no history of military aggression for around 250 years (but has sinned against by the West almost continuously), while Israel has an arsenal of undeclared nukes and has been actively pursuing threatening, aggressive and invasive activities towards its neighbours and others since its formation?!!
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September 26, 2009 6:55pm
Banana Llama

I guess all the militias Iran supports in neighboring country’s don’t count as aggressive acts then 😉
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September 26, 2009 7:06pm
Hurf Durf

I wasn’t going to respond to your moronic dribblings, so since you’re a fucking idiot, I feel I must.

First of all, pretty much every understands that Iran has an offensive nuclear programme: the US (even Obama), the UK, the French, the Israelis, the Turkish, the Germans, the Russians and the Chinese (the latter two get to bulk up their cash reserves by continuing economic and nuclear cooperation and trade). The only people who don’t are the UN (controlled by Third Worlders), the IAEA (El Baradai admitted burying critical information that disclosed Iranian offensive intentions) and our own anti-Western fifth columnists. The revelation of the NEW, PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN BECAUSE IT WAS TOP SECRET proves what everyone’s already suspected: that Iran is maintaining an offensive weapons programme alongside a “peaceful” one, a canard used by the UN, Iran, Russia and China to stymy efforts to sanction Tehran. For Iran to prove it is innocent, it must tell us that the new site near Qom and the dozen other suspected sites don’t exist. And that is quite easy: full cooperation with a neutral organisation composed of elements of non-anti-Western countries of the UN and the principled anti-Iranian aggression countries. Will that happen? Probably not, Iran wants to drag negotiations for as long as possible until they are operational. But then again WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH DER EYEATOYA SEZ NOOKS R RONG, so what do I know.

Second of all, if the Muslims had accepted the 1947 Partition Plan and left Israel in peace, it wouldn’t need a nuclear arsenal and it wouldn’t need to militarily intervene in countries harbouring anti-Israeli terrorist groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah – organisations supported and armed by Iran!

Hurf Durf Industries: turning amateurs into professionals since 1878.
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September 26, 2009 7:13pm
village idiot

Hurf Durf! Were conjoined twins! Two idiots, two stupids! Or are you conjoined twins in your own right? Hurf and Durf! Who gets to use the keyboard? Are you the thinking ‘urf, or the typing ‘urf? Why did you choose a name that sounds like someone spewing? Perhaps it’s two people spewing? If Durf goes on a bender, do you end up up-chucking your own ring? I’m fascinated by you! Two. Please post photo.
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September 26, 2009 7:45pm
Hurf Durf

Wrong again, VI. I’m Hurf, my split personality is Durf.

Or is it the other way round?
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September 26, 2009 7:50pm
village idiot

I don’t know whether to believe either of you.
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September 26, 2009 7:54pm
reid

“First of all, pretty much every understands that Iran has an offensive nuclear programme:”

So no doubt you’ve got screds and screds of really really hard evidence, Hurf.

So let’s see it. All of it.

Because all I’ve ever heard is cheap MSM bullshit that wouldn’t fool a chimp, unless they were a particularly thick and impressionable chimp, ready to believe anything provided it was repeated often enough.

So I’m looking forward to your really really hard evidence. I’m not interested BTW in news releases by the Israeli govt or Likud commentators. They’re always full of it, particularly on this subject.
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September 26, 2009 8:08pm
calico

Just ignore him; surely he is suffering from schizophrenia.
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September 26, 2009 8:11pm
Hurf Durf

Listen to what Barry, Sarko and Gordo said yesterday. It’s the basis of Western policy towards Iran, you tool. But then we all know Western policy is controlled by THA JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZ who want to harm innocent-as-the-virgin-snow muslims so it’s obviously wrong.
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September 26, 2009 8:17pm
reid

“Listen to what Barry, Sarko and Gordo said yesterday.”

Fucken d’oh, Hurf.

Their predecessors said Saddam was harbouring Al-Qaida and possessed WMD. Neither of those things panned out, did they?

Well, in case you disagree, trust me, they didn’t.

Just cause a political leader says something, doesn’t mean it’s so. Since the establishment of Iran having nukes gives Israel an excuse to take it out (which is the whole point of the propaganda campaign to date) this is a rather serious issue with potential possibly to cause WWIII and at the least, massive ME disruption and huge US losses in Iraq. Therefore it should behoove anyone with a 3-digit IQ to demand a bit more fucking evidence than the simple say-so of those three people. Or haven’t you learned from recent history?
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September 26, 2009 8:26pm
Hurf Durf

Their predecessors did, they didn’t (except maybe for Gordo).

And the idea that “the establishment of Iran gives Israel an excuse to take it out” implies that those nasty hook-nosed imperialist jooooooooooooooooooooooz wanted to take out Iran to start with, which plainly isn’t the case.

And no, you stupid felcher, there won’t be a war against Iran. The time for airstrikes was four years ago when the programme was still primitive. Sanctions mean fuck all unless its targeted at the countries backing Iran (i.e. Russia and China) and that’s not going to happen. Now the only thing that will work is active clandestine work inside Iran to bring down the Islamist regime and end its expansionist ambitions and the implementation of ABM technology in Israel and Turkey to neutralise Iran’s ability to use nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles and blunt their ability to use them as threats or bargaining chips in the future.
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September 26, 2009 8:45pm
TimG_Oz

Luc Hansen looks like he is now joing Kiwiblog to try and linkwhore his anti-Israel (and seemingly anti-Jewish) diatribe

Probably no need to deconstruct, but what they hey…

“The IAEA has found that Iran’s nuclear programme largely complies with the NPT provisions.”

Huh? Since when? This link is on Al-jazeera http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/09/200992653918859243.html

“In particular, there is no evidence Iran is headed down the path of nukes.”

OK – except for a bunch of stuff like this: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1117085.html

“Be that as it may, why are we paranoid about Iran, a country with no history of military aggression for around 250 years”

Forget 250 – just the last 30 years is important since the revolution. Terrorism? Check. What about Iran v Iraq? From 82-88 “Iran was on the offensive”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Iraq_war

“while Israel has an arsenal of undeclared nukes and has been actively pursuing threatening, aggressive and invasive activities towards its neighbours and others since its formation?!!”

Since it’s formation – you mean in 1948? Gee – my recollection is that Israel was invaded, threatened and is continually stated to be wiped from the map by Hamas, Hezbollah, Ahmadinejad etc ….
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September 26, 2009 9:46pm
reid

Tim, if you seriously think that Haaretz article is “real real hard evidence” that Iran is nuking up, you’re a real lightweight. And then you cite wikipedia. Forgive me if I ignore your input until you come back with something concrete.

Hurf:

“Now the only thing that will work is active clandestine work inside Iran to bring down the Islamist regime and end its expansionist ambitions and the implementation of ABM technology in Israel and Turkey to neutralise Iran’s ability to use nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles and blunt their ability to use them as threats or bargaining chips in the future.”

So how come Israel seems real keen to bomb Iran’s facilities then? And how do you possibly imagine that “clandestine” operations are capable of taking out a determined nation’s nuclear ambitions? (Note Hurf, I’m not saying Iran is determined to do that, I’m merely posing the hypothetical to answer the idiotic point you raised.)
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September 26, 2009 10:17pm
TimG_Oz

“Tim, if you seriously think that Haaretz article is “real real hard evidence” that Iran is nuking up, you’re a real lightweight.”

This from a bloke who is trying to work out whether 9-11 was done by the Germans, CIA or the Mossad 🙂
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September 26, 2009 10:26pm
getstaffed

reid, this is the one and only topic where I struggle to understand your position, whereas on pretty much every other discussion topic here at KB I find myself nodding in approval of your comments.

Luc claimed that Iran had no history of military aggression over the last 250 years. Tim used wikipedia to point to what’s bleeing obvious to most of us.. that they do have a recent histrory of military aggression.. and you shoot Tim down for citing wikipedia?!?. If that makes if 15-love in your mind then all good I guess. So do you you agree with Luc on this matter, or do you agree with Tim? I’m confused. Must be the wine.
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September 26, 2009 10:34pm
Hurf Durf

So how come Israel seems real keen to bomb Iran’s facilities then?

Because the ultimate way of taking nuclear material and missile technology away from the Iranians is to incinerate it in a ball of flame.

And if they were real keen, they would’ve done it when Bush was in power.

And how do you possibly imagine that “clandestine” operations are capable of taking out a determined nation’s nuclear ambitions?

A pro-Western unfundamentalist government would feel less inclined to develop nukes, support terrorist groups and generally destabilise the region. Besides, Iran doesn’t even need nukes; their security concerns are already served by an overstretched US Army, a global recession, a large land mass, diplomatic support from Russia and China and a large and committed (if technologically backward) military.
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September 26, 2009 10:43pm
Banana Llama

My guess would be Israel would like to destroy research material and scientists, they are much harder to replace than centrifuges and would delay the Iranians considerably, similar to Peenemünde

( been reading about Albert Speer lately 😛 )
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September 26, 2009 11:02pm
Hurf Durf

Good point, BL. I wonder if any researchers are going to start dropping dead like Gerald Bull did.
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September 26, 2009 11:15pm
reid

“This from a bloke who is trying to work out whether 9-11 was done by the Germans, CIA or the Mossad”

Weak dissembly Tim, thought you could do better. My simple point is, where’s the evidence that Iran is nuking up, apart from MSM stories quoting politicians who have said they are? Note that nuking up is completely different from acting as a major regional player which is what Iran has always been.

getstaffed, I don’t consider wikipedia an authoritative source on this issue, that’s why I laughed at Tim. I was in fact surprised he bought it up in the first place, it’s so laughable. If you want to understand Iran’s security perspective, then you need to look elsewhere. If you want to look up the origins of a place name, then wikipedia is a good place to go.

“And if they were real keen, they would’ve done it when Bush was in power.”

There were considerable rumours Israel wanted to do precisely that, Hurf, because they knew that once the neocons vacated, Obama would be unreceptive, as he is proving to be. If those rumours are true, then a reasonable hypothesis is that Bush did not permit them for various reasons including the obvious one: it would have meant the supply lines to the US forces in Iraq would have been cut, which they will be, if Iran is ever hit.

“A pro-Western unfundamentalist government would feel less inclined to develop nukes, support terrorist groups and generally destabilise the region. Besides, Iran doesn’t even need nukes; their security concerns are already served by an overstretched US Army, a global recession, a large land mass, diplomatic support from Russia and China and a large and committed (if technologically backward) military.”

The first lesson of geopolitics is to understand where the enemy is coming from. If you can’t understand why Iran acts the way it does, then I suggest you join the line of cold-war idiots who didn’t understand why Russia was behaving the way it did, and do some new research that helps you to understand. I must say Hurf, it’s a fairly elementary principle, I do hope you make some progress. One of the first principles is to stop thinking that it’s some big monolithic creature all run by a single guy with a funny name who does nothing but criticise Israel. Iran is a vast complex nation with many competing interests. Oddly enough (odd that is, to someone who doesn’t understand it), it’s also the most respected nation in the Islamic world, because in everything it does, it acknowledges G-d.

Did you note for example Ahmadinejad’s opening remarks in his UN speech? While the political significance of little things like that escape you, you’ll never get why the ME is such a heaving pile of hatred.

Israel does know all of this, but it oddly continues on its path to exacerbate that hatred. Simple people think that Israel is merely defending itself. They’re wrong.
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September 27, 2009 12:25am
Hurf Durf

it’s also the most respected nation in the Islamic world,

I’ve heard you say that before and it still doesn’t make any sense. NO country in the Middle East wants to see Iran go nuclear.

Did you note for example Ahmadinejad’s opening remarks in his UN speech? While the political significance of little things like that escape you, you’ll never get why the ME is such a heaving pile of hatred.

Yeah, yeah, the West and JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZ. Heard it all before.
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September 27, 2009 12:48am
Fletch

Iran only copped to building this facility because they were found out.
It wouldn’t all be so bad if the man in charge wasn’t a hate-spitting holocaust denier; how many people walked out on his UN speech again?

Why can’t the country have a sane man in charge, for once?
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September 27, 2009 7:42am
reid

“I’ve heard you say that before and it still doesn’t make any sense. NO country in the Middle East wants to see Iran go nuclear.”

That’s a completely different question to whether it’s respected as a Leader of the Faith, Hurf.

“Yeah, yeah, the West and JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZ. Heard it all before.”

Fantasizing that that is even a partial explanation for my attitude toward Israel is rather superficial and quite incorrect, Hurf. I’ve said before many times, I’m a much better friend of the Israeli people than others who blindly support its govt’s every move. The destruction that govt continues to wreck needs to be looked at for what it is. For example, both the Lebanon and Gaza operations had far-reaching negative effects and it didn’t need to be that way, in order to achieve the stated objectives. If one can’t recognise that blatant reality then one doesn’t understand even Geopolitics 101.

So I started this conversation by saying that thus far, no-one has produced real real hard evidence of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. So far, none has been provided. Yet some of you seem convinced it’s a cold hard fact. Now why is that, and do any of those people see any parallel between this issue and other great propaganda campaigns throughout history that later events proved to be a pack of fatuous lies? Iraq and WMD ring any bells? Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s entirely possible Iran is nuking up, I just haven’t seen any hard evidence to date for that coming through the MSM, but I have an open mind toward whatever the truth actually is.
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September 27, 2009 9:34am
Hurf Durf

THA JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZ

All the evidence you need.
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September 27, 2009 2:05pm
reid

How old are you, Hurf? I’m guessing, maybe 10.
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September 27, 2009 4:02pm
Hurf Durf

We know you have it in for Israel and its right to self-defence from terrorist organisations, so I’m not surprised you’d like to see Iran go nuclear.
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September 27, 2009 4:10pm
reid

“We know you have it in for Israel and its right to self-defence from terrorist organisations, so I’m not surprised you’d like to see Iran go nuclear.”

How could you possibly interpret that from any comment I’ve ever made on this or any other blog, Hurf?

Clearly, you’re an idiot.
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September 27, 2009 4:17pm
getstaffed

How could you possibly interpret that from any comment I’ve ever made on this or any other blog

reid, with respect, your comments here are consistently anti-Israel, while lacking in any condemnation towards her many, and some would say criminally aggressive enemies. Like it or not, your e-persona as been cast.
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September 27, 2009 4:37pm
reid

“reid, with respect, your comments here are consistently anti-Israel, while lacking in any condemnation towards her many, and some would say criminally aggressive enemies. Like it or not, your e-persona as been cast.”

Depends whether you conflate the actions of the Israeli govt with the interests of the people of Israel, getstaffed. As you know, I don’t. I think the record of the declining security position of the Israeli people is clear evidence that their govt consistently gets it wrong. For some reason, they take provocative action after provocative action, without a clear strategy or tactical reason apart from a vague premise that they live surrounded in a sea of hatred. As you know, my response is: ever heard of cause and effect?

Re: her enemies, I have never said I support or agree in anyway with the actions they take against Israel and have in fact said they are murderous thugs, quite a few times. I just don’t see the need to preface each comment I make on Israel with such. If people imagine that because I don’t do that, that therefore I must inevitably support Israel’s enemies, I’d suggest the four-legs-good two-legs-bad argument is not a good way to assess this particular geopolitical situation.
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September 27, 2009 4:56pm
Patrick Starr

so reid- are you suggesting Israel is western civilised enough to constantly take the terrorism on the chin and try more diplomacy – whereas they arabs are too barbaric to ever know any better?
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September 27, 2009 5:14pm
TimG_Oz

Yeah this reid is a strange one. A lot of people with mental health issues project their hatred as anti-semitism (i.e. they believe Jews run the world). He acknowledged he used to do that (see comments re Kiwipolitico circa 2003) but now projects the enemy as the “Zionists” – as well as the CIA, the Masons, etc etc etc. It is pretty clear he has never met a Jew (let alone a “Zionist”)

He still repeats a lot of anti-semitic material (i.e. he complains that I cite wikipedia, but he has no need to check facts when repeating myths about Anne Frank or Jews in 9/11).

My current conclusion is that reid is just a nut, unlike Luc Hansen who seems far more obvious in his intentions in the way he distorts facts.

getstaffed – I agree it is a pity, because when it comes to local NZ issues, he makes some great points and I agree with a lot of what he says. Everything else seems to come from some weird bizarre imagination (reminds me a bit of the movie “A Beautiful Mind”)
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September 27, 2009 6:12pm
reid

Patrick, Israel has the solution in its hands – politically, diplomatically and materially. It could easily engage international resources to protect it against the Palestinians but it doesn’t seem to want to. For example, if Israel said to the UN, give us your best troops to protect us and we will seriously seek peace, the best troops would come. It’s never said that cause it doesn’t want to relinquish control on the ground.

“The arabs are too barbaric to ever know any better…” I know you don’t think that Patrick, I’m surprised you’re even flying that kite.

Tim, you’re so funny.

Let’s see. Not that I give a shit, but how about:

“projects the enemy as the “Zionists” – as well as the CIA, the Masons, etc etc etc”

Care to cite a single example?

I’d be really interested in examples of my repetition of “the Anne Frank myths” and “Jews in 9/11” as well.
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September 27, 2009 10:06pm
Luc Hansen

Hi guys, sorry about my absence from this fascinating debate but we have been away for the weekend.

Just to set the record straight, I take offense at the accusation of anti-Semitism, which these days seems to equate with criticising anything Israel does. That’s nonsense, of course, but par for the course.

Israel has a very active project of combating blogs and, yes, Wiki posters, with its own propaganda. So no, don’t take Wiki seriously, please.

Iran was invaded by Iraq at the behest of the US (we all understand this, don’t we?) and was winning that war and counterattacking Iraq, as we do in that situation, when the US made it plain to Iran that they had to desist.

If Iran is, in fact, developing nukes, can we blame them? After neutralising the non-threat of Iraq, Iran became our favourite new demon state, under constant threat from the US and its primary client state, Israel. Following the examples of Israel, India, Pakistan and North Korea, why wouldn’t one develop nukes? But to suggest the govt of Iran would commit mass suicide by launching one against Israel is mere Cheney-like fantasy.

Tim, my friend, please detail how I distort facts do I can post an intelligent reply. Give me an example.
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September 27, 2009 10:19pm
noskire

I’m not so sure about the “Jews in 9/11” conspiracy, but why the heck World Trade Center 7 collapsed when it wasn’t even hit baffles me. Let alone the fact WTC1 and 2 managed to collapse neatly on their own footprints.
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September 27, 2009 10:27pm
Hurf Durf

So no, don’t take Wiki seriously, please.

THA JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZ control Wikipedia? Is there no limits to their power!?!?!

Iran was invaded by Iraq at the behest of the US

Actually, no, Iraq invaded Iran out of its own volition. You’re thinking of Kuwait.

when the US made it plain to Iran that they had to desist.

Yeah, we should have let an 8 year long war with millions of casualties, chemical weapons being used and no end in sight to go on.

Iran became our favourite new demon state, under constant threat from the US and its primary client state, Israel.

Iran has long been a “demon state”, Luc, my boy. I’m not sure if you only notice around 2004. And no, Israel is a fully independent state, no matter how much the JOOOOOOOOZ KUNTROL AVERYTHIN crowd want it to be.
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September 27, 2009 10:32pm
reid

“I’m not so sure about the “Jews in 9/11″ conspiracy”

Yeah who the fuck knows anything about that, noskire. Let’s wait for Tim to explain his fantasy.
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September 27, 2009 10:33pm
Luc Hansen

Well now Hurf, if we could stop that war after 8 years and after a change in fortunes of our then favoured son, Sadaam, why did we allow it to start? So don’t be silly. The US saw Iraq being taken over by Iran (again, Baghdad used to be in Iran) and sent Iran a message to be satisfied with its successes or else.

And I see you are saying the US encouraged Iraq to invade Kuwait. Then turned around and drove it out. Hmm…why?

And let’s not forget who provided the ingredients for the chemical munitions. You guessed it! Well done.

As regards Iran’s “demon state” history, sure, it dates back to 1953 when the democratically elected PM nationalised Iran’s oil industry, taking it from the Anglo-American Co. Big mistake, even though the Poms were busy at the time nationalising everything in sight in Britain. So we installed the murderous Shah and so was born the Ayotallah.

Just as Hamas was born of 20 years of brutal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza by Israel, and Hezbollah was born of brutal occupation of Lebanon by…ummm…Israel! What a coincidence!

Israel is fully independent…yeah right. I think it was Rabin, although it may have been Peres, I can’t be bothered looking it up tonight, who said that without the US, the Zionist project would have failed.

I agree, but would add, it ain’t over yet!
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September 27, 2009 11:15pm
Hurf Durf

And I see you are saying the US encouraged Iraq to invade Kuwait.

Not directly encouraged, but they were when the US Ambassador gave a suitably vague response as to whether or not they’d approve. Of course, it’s only Iraq that can be faulted for their aggression. Anti-Western moral relativists such as yourself enjoying blurring the lines to assist in the rise of China.

Also if the weak Carter had bothered to shore up the Shah instead of fannying around with “human rights”, we wouldn’t have an Ayatollah. Let’s not forget that Khomeini enjoyed the support of the Western media and the left-wing elite too.

And it’s the Arabs own fault for the Palis due to their continued aggression against Israel and refusal to integrate the refugees into their own countries, whereas Israel quietly integrated fleeing Arab Jews.

And yes, Israel is fully independent. They have their own arms industry and US aid makes up a pathetic 2% of GDP. They’ve fought every Arab invasion and continue to fight against the well-oiled PR efforts of the Marxist fifth columnist who seek to destroy the West. Amazing for a country with only 7 million people.
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September 27, 2009 11:23pm
reid

“And yes, Israel is fully independent. They have their own arms industry and US aid makes up a pathetic 2% of GDP.”

Oh goody. So they wouldn’t mind if the US stopped all arms exports?

Grow up. WTF do you think AIPAC does all day on the Hill?
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September 28, 2009 9:56pm

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