General Debate 8 August 2009

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philu

how are dpf and the king of tonga the same..?

..their ‘people’ have both suffered a boating tragedy..

(here the ‘ss gouge/trough’ has been capsized..)

..and both have just left the wreckage floating in the water..

..and gone on holiday..

(and..shall we start a sweepstake on when english will resign/be tipped out..?

..after all..he is now a ‘liability’..

..eh..?)

and guess what..?

chris carter..(and other..as yet unrevealed) gougers/troughers.).will find ‘compelling reasons’ to not stand at the next election..

phil(whoar.co.nz)

[DPF: 20 demerits for comparing me to someone responsible for a boating tragedy. Just because I am not blogging much doesn’t mean I can’t still hand out demerits!]
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August 8, 2009 8:26am
philu

and as a local m.s.m.observation..

the herald is all over this gouging/troughing scandal..

..whereas the ‘stuff’ news-service..(save for an opinion piece from trotter)..

..has..at this time on this morning..

..nary a story on it..

whoar..!..eh..?

(‘holy failing journalistic standards..!..batman..!’)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 8:29am
TripeWryter

I see in The Dominion Post this morning that Helen Clark is still stubbornly clinging to her ‘we were right’ position over the ‘anti-smacking’ law. So she still hasn’t understood why her government was voted out, even after West Coasters told Labour MPs earlier this year — when the MPs went to the Coast to ‘reconnect’ with people — how much the repeal of section 59 pissed people off.

I also see that the confused John Roughan is having another go in the NZ Herald this morning at spreading his confusion about the referendum. I would have thought he would have given up after an emeritus law professor during the week demolished his efforts at confusion spreading last Saturday. Stick to what you know, John, please.
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August 8, 2009 8:34am
expat

fuck off phil. you are a sick dog.
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August 8, 2009 8:34am
Viking2

Well it just had to happen didn’t it. All that was required was to wait and the old story that it takes one to know one has proven to be correct once again. Gees the oldies knew something.

Nats acted with sheer vindictiveness – Clark
By TRACY WATKINS in New York – The Dominion Post

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politic … ness-Clark
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August 8, 2009 8:36am
Inventory2

Good to see our old mate Hans Kriek from SAFE in the news again – for getting caught telling elephant-sized porkies

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/08/who-needs-facts.html
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August 8, 2009 8:36am
Cerium

Cherry picking John Roughan’s latest piece on the smacking debate comes up with some interesting points.

The John Boscawen bill would make correction illegal if it “causes the child to suffer injury which is more than transitory and trifling” or, “is inflicted by any means that is cruel or degrading”.

This illustrates how difficult it is to get a clear legal definition of what is reasonable and what isn’t.

McCoskrie: “Preventing particular actions will often amount to correcting them, especially when the action and the prevention are repeated. This bill will remove that confusion by adding correction to the list of permitted purposes.

But how do you define correction? I think that term is confusing.

“Correction is about preventing,” he said.

Could be. I thought it was more to try and teach correct behaviour. To “to reform, improve, or rehabilitate”.

“I get speed camera tickets well after the fact. Still prevents me repeating the crime – well, usually!”

Doesn’t prevent a lot of people from repeating the crime. From repeating a lot of crimes.

McCoskrie: “As long as it’s non-abusive, it’ll work. And as long as the child associates the punishment with the wrong behaviour. “

Punishment and attempts at teaching do not guarantee any results.

Roughan: I find the idea of parents taking “time out” to plan a punishment quite repugnant if what they plan is physical. Any decent parent who takes time to consider a suitable punishment will surely come up with better ideas.

I wouldn’t necessarily call it repugnant, but I would call it misguided.

A smack delivered in the anger and frustration of the moment is likely to be a more healthy and harmless act, mentally at least, than a calm, considered, cold-blooded assault sometime afterwards.

I don’t agree with this. Smacks delivered in anger and frustration can be the most dangerous, things can easily get out of control. Especially with booze involved.

The legislators’ word for the latter, “correction”, is not very precise but their intent is fairly obvious.
It is easy to be confused by legislation if you are determined to be. But judicial rulings, to my untutored reading of them, have a genius for resolving most things in accord with common sense.

I don’t agree. The few cases where the old law was a problem were due to the difficulty with judicial definitions. The current version is no less confusing. I don’t think the Boscawen bill is clear either, but at least it tries to address the “criminalisation of parents” aspect.

I think as with many laws we can never have a clear definition that covers all possible scenarios.

Back to McCoskrie: “As long as it’s non-abusive, it’ll work.

This is something I think is a really difficult one. If using physical punishment , where is the line between being hurtful enough to register some effect, especially as the child gets older, and not suffer an injury which is “more than transitory and trifling” or, “is inflicted by any means that is cruel or degrading”.

And how does who decide what constitutes cruel or degrading?
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August 8, 2009 8:37am
Falafulu Fisi

Phil U said…
how are dpf and the king of tonga the same..?

..their ‘people’ have both suffered a boating tragedy..

But people died in that tragic boating accident never bludged off money from the taxpayer’s pocket Phil, since there is no benefit system in Tonga, unlike you who survive on sacrificed of others (the NZ taxpayers).
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August 8, 2009 8:40am
philu

wow..!..fisi..!..have a special ‘long-stretch-insult award’..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 8:46am
Glutaemus Maximus

Phil U. Your contributions are very sad and inappropriate.

Would you please go and play on a Motorway, or take a very long walk on a short pier.
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August 8, 2009 8:48am
Glutaemus Maximus

One day you will get the message that EVERYONE does actually find you tiresome, banal, and irrelevant.

Were your Parents bludgers as well?
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August 8, 2009 8:50am
philu

is this yr (transitory) empathy-du-jour..?..gluty..?

why don’t you focus yr energies on the maritime disaster just waiting to happen..?

..the skanky-rustbucket that is used to ‘service’ the tokelau islands..

islanders/visitors are terrified to travel on it..

..and see their maritime disaster as a matter of ‘when”‘..not if?’..

..and guess who owns/runs this example of a fuck-up just waiting to happen..?

yep..!

..the noo zeeland gummint..!

(take a bow..!..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 9:00am
billyborker

Whoar!!!!

What a fucking smell in there,

FINALLY out of Farrar’s Dungeon, kept in a week longer than my sentence for banging on the bars. Well, wouldn’t you when your only company was d4j and ghost who walks, nothing to eat except the bones of greenfly, robinson and roger gnome!

On my way out I passedMNIJ on his way in – I wonder what his crime was and how he’ll cope in the same room as d4j?

I’ll try to behave in future. No one should have to put up with the conditions of Farrar”s Dungeon.

[DPF: Sorry about the extra days. Don’t always check when bans expire. I’ll deduct it from your next one if there is one :-)]
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August 8, 2009 9:05am
philu

“.. Were your Parents bludgers as well?..”

my father was a muldoon natty/small businessman..my mother also ran her own businesses..

but let’s not get a theme going of speaking ill of the dead..?..eh..?

one to go with the one attacking my children..?

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 9:08am
philu

you could attack my dogs..?..gluty..?

(y’now..!..’guilt by association’?..first cousin of ‘just shoot the messenger’..?)

oh no..!..hang on..!

bok has already staked out that ground..

and y’know..!..i’ve got excellent taste in music..

..so no grounds there to have a go..

eh..?

what to do..?

the path is so well-trodden..

eh..?

and have you noticed yet..?..how repitition just lessens the/any potency..?

..and just ends up splashing back on the issuer..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 9:19am
lilman

TREVOR WHERE ARE YOU, WHERE HAVE YOU GONE?

TREVIR, THE PEOPLES MAN!!!!!!!!!!

TREVAR, THE MAN COMING TO SAVE THE WORLD!

TREV, THE SELFCONTROLLED ANTISMACKER!

T, have you permission to speak.

Come on or are you too busy chasing some skirt or biking or both.
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August 8, 2009 9:23am
lilman

PHIL you homo, fancy using tradgedy as in Tonga to make sick unfunny political points.

These families have lost more than most, god I only hope they meet up with you one day and then we will see some ……….. well………..but I never……….. I hope you get what you deserve in this life.
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August 8, 2009 9:27am
billyborker

Falafulu Fisi (240) Vote: 7 0 Says:

August 8th, 2009 at 8:40 am
… since there is no benefit system in Tonga, unlike you who survive on sacrificed of others (the NZ taxpayers).

This why there are so many Tongans in NZ?

Why did the tongan men survive while their women and children we’re left to drown? is this another example of the no benefit system in Tonga? Everyman for himself, screw the women and kids?

Why do the Tongans put up with their parasitical king and his flagrant theft of the nation’s resources?

And why iS NZ complicit in this by giving this robber baron more of OUR money?
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August 8, 2009 9:34am
philu

ffs..!..it’s a tragedy..!

..they happen every day..

the point actually is..

..(if i have to drag you to it..)

..that the fucken king of tonga just pissed off on one of his many many holidays..

..(he and chris carter are kneck and kneck in ‘airlines most favourite customers’ rankings..eh..?..)

..and this..

as his people floated/drowned in the water/ocean..

..ok..!

with a sub-theme now developing..

..of the disaster waiting to happen in the tokelaus..

..(possible good outcomes..?

..this hastens the (eventual) demise of a corrupt monarchy opressing the tongan people..

..and maybe the spotlight will be turned on the skanky-rustbucket/disaster in waiting..

..in the tokelaus..

so..y’know..

..take yr faux-outrage..and stick it..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz.)
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August 8, 2009 9:40am
philu

(sigh..!..)

“..Why did the tongan men survive while their women and children we’re left to drown? is this another example of the no benefit system in Tonga? Everyman for himself, screw the women and kids?.”

it was night..for reasons of custom/propietry..the women/children slept inside the boat..

..the men outside on the deck..

..it happened too fast..for the women and children to get out/escape..

..the rest of yr comment..i agree with..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 9:44am
Chthoniid

FFS Phool, it’s not about you. You’re not important. We don’t find your life interesting.

The issue on hand is the tragedy that has hit Tonga. That you have neither good taste, empathy nor awareness of the gravity of this event, is now obvious. If anything merits being banned from this list, it is this complete failure on your part to act like a proper human being.
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August 8, 2009 9:44am
starboard

that the fucken king of tonga just pissed off on one of his many many holidays..

..have to agree with that bit….the KOT is a fat waste of space…
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August 8, 2009 9:49am
philu

anyway..enough of this..

my porridge is ready..(mmm!!..’phils’ porridge’..!..

..the rolls-royce of porridges..!..)

and i have some noos aggregating to do..

whoar calls..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 9:54am
Patrick Starr

by the lefts Castle-Hughes definition, Philus insensitivity to the Tongan boat tragedy make him nothing but a racist
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August 8, 2009 9:55am
3-coil

Viking 2 (8:36am) – so true!

PS Link has since disappeared/been removed (?)
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August 8, 2009 10:02am
Chthoniid

@billyborker

Why did the tongan men survive while their women and children we’re left to drown? is this another example of the no benefit system in Tonga? Everyman for himself, screw the women and kids?

Jesus wept. The lengths some people go to make a political point.

When the SS Estonia went down in the Baltic lots of Swedish women and children drowned. It’s got nothing to do with the welfare system.

It has a lot to do with grown men being better swimmers.
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August 8, 2009 10:12am
billyborker

Jesus wept, the stupidity of some people knows no bounds. It was a swipe at fella fulla piss taking a swipe at Phil, All you fudruckers who moan about Phil, if you think his lifestyle is so great, why not do what he does?

If you don’t thionk his lifestyle is so great, take a big does of shut the fuck up about it. You’re boring me with your holier than thou moans.
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August 8, 2009 10:22am
philu

this one is for red..for his ‘archives’..

..(‘tears before bedtime’ section)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/orly-taitzs-msnbc-meltdown-the-remix-video/

“..Remember birther queen Orly Taitz’s bonkers meltdown on MSNBC?

I mean, how could you possibly forget?

She compared everyone to nazis ..

.. and lost whatever she had left of her cool in every way possible.

Well now that video, which has been screaming for a parody..

.. has been remixed..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 10:33am
Razork

OK, I am not in support of any sexual offender, but how does this work?

#1. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10589469
Rugby club captain gets into bed with a drunk player and sexually assaults him and gets 8 years jail.

#2. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=10589328
Man assaults another guy leaving him in a coma and gets 2 years jail.

#3. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=10588598
Man with 8 pages of previous convictions attacks partner with a tomahawk and also gets 8 years.

Seems to me the rugby club capt would have got less jail time if he had bashed the other player?

Go figure.
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August 8, 2009 10:39am
Cerium

Steven Pearlstein: “The recent attacks by Republican leaders and their ideological fellow-travelers on the effort to reform the health-care system have been so misleading, so disingenuous, that they could only spring from a cynical effort to gain partisan political advantage. By poisoning the political well, they’ve given up any pretense of being the loyal opposition. They’ve become political terrorists, willing to say or do anything to prevent the country from reaching a consensus on one of its most serious domestic problems.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/06/AR2009080603854.html?nav=hcmodule

Labour need to be encouraged, pressured, whatever it takes, to become a positive opposition (that doesn’t exclude challenging bad governance), so we don’t have as corrupt a “democracy” as the US has become.
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August 8, 2009 10:43am
philu

“.wrong again..!..eh clt..?

“..It has a lot to do with grown men being better swimmers.”

um..!..no..!

“..it was night..for reasons of custom/propriety..the women/children slept inside the boat..

..the men outside on the deck..

..it happened too fast..for the women and children to get out/escape..”

“mm..kay..?..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 10:46am
Glutaemus Maximus

My Spam filter appears to have it in for me.

It keeps preventing me from winning the Nigerian Lottery!
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August 8, 2009 10:51am
Glutaemus Maximus

This Labour MP is now in charge of the ‘Digital Britain’ campaign.

If ever you doubted that Socialists are vain, haughty, or downright arrogant. Enjoy!

And this pillock predicts an increasing Labour Majority in the next election. Yet the rogue polls are

showing the Tories as being 25 points ahead in the marginal seats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcS7i4wn01o
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August 8, 2009 10:59am
thedavincimode

lilman

“I hope you get what you deserve in this life.”

lilman, the mini Man Magpie has got exactly what he deserves. Certainly we pay for him, but its supposedly cheaper than keeping him in priz.

But what you see is all he has and all he will ever be.
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August 8, 2009 11:02am
village idiot

Billyborker – how is it that you have been mouldering in Farrar’s dank dungeon and yet you have come up smelling of roses? You are a breath of fresh air (but you still have one of greenfly’s bones stuck between your teeth and a little gnome whisker on your chin).).
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August 8, 2009 11:03am
Sonny Blount

Another general debate thread ruined by spam.

Surely this warrants demerits DPF?
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August 8, 2009 11:04am
Glutaemus Maximus

Borker is even more rabid than normal.

Can see you having ‘Time Out’ yet again. If it all bores you, then just fuck off back to corruptionville.
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August 8, 2009 11:12am
Falafulu Fisi

Billyboggers said…
This why there are so many Tongans in NZ?

Umm! I think that Tongans come here not aiming to live on benefit but to get meaning employment. It is the system here that allows people to go on benefit, which kills whatever motivations they have left. The sooner the benefit system is killed here, the better it is for orchardists in the Hawkes Bay that they will never run out of workers since bludgers such as Phil U, will have no choice but to travel to Hawkes Bay to find useful employment over there. Currently, the NZ government have to allow islanders to come here on a temporary permits specifically to work in orchards around the country, despite having rising level of unemployment, because people don’t want to work in a orchard or some horticultural farms out there. The other reason is higher level education that people come here for (and I am one). So, it is simply economics and education that people choose to come here, which are not new at all.

Billyboggers said…
Why do the Tongans put up with their parasitical king and his flagrant theft of the nation’s resources?

Because the King handpicked his own men for the top government positions, where in fact those officials just looked the other way fully knowing of what’s going on. It is pretty hard to change certain things since the constitution was written by British Missionaries in 1870s based on the British systems, so either the constitution has to be annulled and start again (which is very hard) or people have to rise up and take arms to reform.
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August 8, 2009 11:40am
Bok

Da Vinci
Now that is succinct genius if ever I saw it.

Trust me I have seen it and you nailed it!
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August 8, 2009 11:42am
thedavincimode

“Labour need to be encouraged, pressured, whatever it takes, to become a positive opposition (that doesn’t exclude challenging bad governance), so we don’t have as corrupt a “democracy” as the US has become.”

What a load of sancitmonious twaddle. Labour does not NEED to be “encouraged or pressured” to do anything. Labour will reap and is in fact reaping the consequences of its behaviour. Perhaps Delirium, you would believe the pointless flapping seagull if he did the full on “whoops, sorry about that” on everything they did, and promised not to misbehave again. Or maybe you think that politics requires National’s Ying to Labour’s Yang and that if they were to disappear, then the political cosmos would be disturbed to such an extent that we would fall fall through some space/time portal and wind up with Herr Dokter back in 18th century Britain. Well, I’m certainly no scholar of Chinese, but I’ll bet that Yang doesn’t translate as dishonest, corrupt, venal and duplicitous behaviour.

But then there is little point in speculating on what you think Delirium because, to once again paraphrase the Cohen brothers, the Hall Monitor’s mind is a rocky and barren place where the seeds of logic and reason can find no purchase. (That was a great movie, but why do I think you wouldn’t have found it funny Delirium?)
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August 8, 2009 11:43am
getstaffed

From Stuff: A stolen hi ha hi haka

extract: Otago University physical education professor Steve Jackson, an expert on haka controversies, said the latest performance was likely to offend many Maori.

My advice to Maori: Be offended by grievance-industry idiots like Jackson, not by lame attempts to copy a haka.

Also, I wonder if those that decry such ‘offence’ were similarly scathing when, for example, a billion Catholics were offended by the Southpark ‘Bloody Mary’ episode?
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August 8, 2009 11:57am
Patrick Starr

Delirium may still be hiding under the bed telling his mum how unfair it is that two more nasty people on kiwiblog told him to get lost
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/08/celebrity_activism_cartoons.html#comment-593665
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August 8, 2009 12:01pm
Patrick Starr

on a different note, here’s some pom humour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPKqCgdLpDE
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August 8, 2009 12:19pm
starboard

Patrick Starr (2793) Vote: 0 0 Says:

August 8th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
on a different note, here’s some pom humour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPKqCgdLpDE

..classic….
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August 8, 2009 12:34pm
Sonny Blount

A great link from that video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5z4Vs26-TI&feature=related

How to deal with telemarketers
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August 8, 2009 12:42pm
tom hunter

I observed the special pleading of Cerium the other day so allow me to – paraphrasing Mr Pearlstein – step over the line and question his motives.

I don’t think Cerium is a “moderate”, a “plague-on-both-your-houses”, or a “centrist” at all. I think Cerium is just another tired old leftie playing the same old rhetorical game of pretending to rise above it all – the abuse, the shouting, the anger – in order to reach out to “reasonable”, “rational”, “sensible” people. A Third-Wayer perhaps?

All this mixed in the occasional shots that imply that his opposition is – shall we say less than bright, and nasty. Shots that are small but endless and naturally do not rise to the level of “abuse”.

Which is to say, the typical approach of a natural denizen of the tilted nose forum that is Public Address.

I’ve seen hilariously retro stuff about overpopulation but today’s link to Pearlstein is a perfect example of the sort of “I’m a reasonable person” debate framing that is being attempted here. Let me give a few examples:

As a columnist who regularly dishes out sharp criticism, I try not to question the motives of people with whom I don’t agree. Today, I’m going to step over that line.

Today? As in finally? The Republican extremists have pushed me past my limits of being a fair and balanced reporter? The horror, the horror.

What he goes on to demonstrate is that he’s going to question their motives directly, as opposed to questioning their motives indirectly and subtly via mockery and snide comments, which is the gold standard for the MSM.

As a test of this I’ll spend some time, later on, looking for pieces written by Mr Pearlstein where he questioned the motives of Democrats with whom he disagreed about big issues – assuming he did disagree with them on any such thing.

The recent attacks by Republican leaders and their ideological fellow-travelers on the effort to reform the health-care system have been so misleading, so disingenuous, that they could only spring from a cynical effort to gain partisan political advantage..

Funny considering that I’ve spent the last six months reading articles by the likes of Pearlstein that have described the Republicans as utterly useless as an opposition. I thought they were bereft of vision, disorganised, filled with infighting, leaderless, abject in their despair at being rejected overwhelmingly by the forces of light and truth, and staring down the barrel of demographic trends that will reduce them to being a rump of old, white men in the South.

From all this I gathered the idea that the Republican party could not organise a piss-up in a brewery.

Most important is to note the fact gleefully parroted by left-wingers around the world – that the Democrats now control the Presidency, the Congress with large majorities, and the Senate with a filibuster-proof 60 members. As I was informed, this meant that Democrats now had the power to do whatever they wanted and the Republicans would merely shout and stamp their feet. Now they’re a force to be reckoned with?

Of course if your real problem is that your side can’t get it together then you have to go looking for scapegoats to demonise, something long practiced on the streets of Chicago. Something I would think a sceptical, informed reporter would be well aware of – assuming he’s not in the tank for Obama.

By poisoning the political well, they’ve given up any pretense of being the loyal opposition. They’ve become political terrorists, willing to say or do anything to prevent the country from reaching a consensus on one of its most serious domestic problems.

As opposed to how loyal the Democrats were when many of their senior members flocked to see Fahrenheit 9/11 and raved about it – a movie that explicitly made the case that Bush and other Republicans had coordinated an attack on their own country. A movie that resulted in Moore being invited to sit with Jimmy Carter in the balcony seats of the 2004 Dem convention.

As opposed to loyal Democratic party-aligned groups like Codepink and Moveon.com who labeled General Petraus as “General Betray-Us” to such a degree that Hillary Clinton felt confident enough to basically call him a liar during his testimony.

As opposed to Howard Dean claiming that although he would not go as far as Moore, he did think that Bush had deliberately decided to ignore Saudi Arabian warnings and allow the attacks to occur – a fine example of the subtlety and nuance of left-wing loyalty.

As opposed to the loyal opposition presented in countless town hall meetings in 2005 in which Bush’s proposals to do something about the bankrupt Social Security system was cast as Republicans wanting to destroy your Social Security.

No poisoning of the political wells there. No sir.
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August 8, 2009 1:13pm
Cerium

“hiding under the bed”

Funny you should mention that, I had been wondering if Red’s under the bed, wondering why the Kenyan birth certificate didn’t started his revolution.

Did the committee get around to deciding what to do? Tell me to fuck off again, or tell it to me straight,?

I don’t really care what a few closed mind extremists think. Too easily baited and predictable. There is more to the blog than the right wing mallards.
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August 8, 2009 1:37pm
Cerium

Tom, I didn’t say the Republicans were the only ones who act like that, but they are now. The shining beacon of democracy has too many people fighting over the matches.
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August 8, 2009 1:45pm
Patrick Starr

“committee ” ?? – Oh, I seeeeee……. You didnt think it was possible for just a random bunch of people to all think you’re a dick.

(fairly deep for someone who doesnt care)
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August 8, 2009 2:11pm
Viking2

Here is the link. Been shifted probably.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/2731946/Nats-acted-with-sheer-vindictiveness-Clark
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August 8, 2009 2:15pm
nickb

Hey can anyone out there help me?
Currently doing a BA/LLB, but wanna drop the BA side of things, and do a degree in economics/finance to complement this….
Dont really wanna do my economics at the Uni I’m at, so does anyone out there know much about the extramural stuff Massey and Otago offer?
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August 8, 2009 2:49pm
tom hunter

Tom, I didn’t say the Republicans were the only ones who act like that…

No, but you just naturally went for a Washington Post reporter who is implying that with his own memory hole, and in your link you had no criticisms to make of such a partisan attack.

, but they are now

Did you not read the middle of my piece? I pointed out that the Republicans should be entirely irrelevant to this debate. Let me say it again: the Democrats have large Congressional majorities, a filibuster-proof Senate majority and the bully-pulpit and non-veto pen of the Presidency. And this is not even to mention Obama’s still reasonable levels of popularity and goodwill, and the army of activists who helped get him elected and who stand ready to re-enter the fray if called upon.

In short, there is no reason for this sort of demagoguery of the opposition. The fact that there is tells us that Obamacare is in deep shit because of its inherent flaws and conflicting objectives. Pearlstein has simply picked up the “fix a target, personalise it, polarise it” batten handed to him by Obama.

That is the action of a party/ideological activist, not a reporter – and you’re linkage to it with with no analysis or critique (in fact with one of it’s passages quoted) means you’re fighting the same fight in the same way but are trying bullshit us on this blog that you’re more in the mode of some disinterested scientist.
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August 8, 2009 2:57pm
philu

it’s a bit of a simplistic look at the numbers tom..

you are totally discounting the blue-dog democrats..

..democrats who are really republicans in drag..

..and these are who the healthcare industry has ‘bought’..

these blue-dogs have received large amounts of campaign-contributions’..

..to ‘buy’ their vote/opposition to healthcare..

..and i know it bores people rigid here…

but this is the second go at american healthcare reform i have watched reasonably closely..

..and both times are case-studies on how american ‘democracy’ is far from that..

..it is all about vested interests..

..’having their way’ with/on the american people..

and it is with these blue-dog democrats..(and a campaign of outright lies by those vested interests..)

..that is stalling/watering down obamas healthcare plans..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 3:21pm
Cerium

Tom: “you just naturally went for a Washington Post reporter”

You don’t have any idea what I “naturally” read. I’m told I would be a “natural” at the Standard but I choose here instead.

The Republicans aren’t irrelevant to the case. The Senate is ultimately controlled by a minority because of the 60% filibuster that is misused for purposes for which it wasn’t designed. Many US politicians are driven by money and it isn’t difficult to turn a few (it only takes one) but putting the shitters up their fundraising committee. Democrats often vote against.

no analysis or critique

Oh, I forgot, all the other posts here have a full analysis and critique.
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August 8, 2009 3:42pm
Cerium

Patrick, if just a random bunch of people told you to piss off would you care? You may be overrating your importance here.
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August 8, 2009 3:49pm
Cerium

And I actually just managed to read Phil’s post, and he makes a valid point.
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August 8, 2009 3:51pm
Patrick Starr

If you dont care then why the fuck do you keep going on about
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August 8, 2009 3:52pm
Cerium

You’re the one that has kept bringing this up Patrick. That’s what you do with Phil too.
I made a point, it showed there was support for what I was saying, and opposition.
It also showed that most people don’t like negative crap, from me or from anyone. Have you ever noticed that?
Now I’m happy to move on.
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August 8, 2009 4:07pm
philu

here is some brainfood..

see how you/we all have been ‘manipulated’..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/the-century-of-the-selfthis-is-a-must-watch-vid/

“..How politicians and business learned to create and manipulate mass-consumer society.

The Century of the Self tells the untold and sometimes controversial story of the growth of the mass-consumer society in Britain and the United States.

How was the all-consuming self created..

.. by whom..?

.. and in whose interests..?

Freud provided useful tools for understanding the secret desires of the masses.

Unwittingly, his work served as the precursor to a world full of political spin doctors, marketing moguls..

.. and society’s belief that the pursuit of satisfaction and happiness ..

.. is man’s ultimate goal..”

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 4:49pm
Hurf Durf

lol, Delirium took the time to post some of that bedwetter Pearlstein’s lunacy. Next he’ll enlighten us with the dulcet rhetorical tones of Krudman (“They’re all racists!”) or some of Chwissy Matthews intellect.

Let’s see how the US’ very own left is becoming unhinged and aggressive.

Democrat screams at constituent for asking tough question on health care:
http://www.11alive.com/video/default.aspx?aid=110764

Racist Union thugs attack black conservative:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/0470FEB3219207458625760B001142AC?OpenDocument

Mr Uniter tells the loyal opposition to fuck off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jifjRVLVjzA

Protestors locked out of town hall while Union thugs admitted:
http://moderateinthemiddle.wordpress.com/2009/08/06/team-totus-recommended-tactics-already-resulting-in-violoence-at-townhalls/

White House to Dems on town halls: “If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25891.html

Democrat compares protestors to the SA:
http://www.columbian.com/article/20090806/NEWS02/708069952/Baird+fears+foes+may+plan+%E2%80%98+ambush%E2%80%99+

Pro-Obama Union astroturfers turn up at town hall while Dems have the audacity to call protestors astroturfers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfdZMrHOldI
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August 8, 2009 5:39pm
Cerium

That’s quite a collection Hurf, have you followed Tom’s advice and done a comprehensive “analysis or critique”? Do you keep a database like Red? I’m sure you have “naturally” balanced it all.

Yeah, they do things big in the US, and their politics is screwed big. I think both GW and Obama probably went in with good intentions, but then they hit a brick wall of vested interests. Too much money at stake. Our expenses controversy is sparrow feed in comparison.
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August 8, 2009 5:56pm
thedavincimode

Fuck off Delirium, you’re in the way.

GO THE MIGHTY MAGPIES – TRY TIME (no, not you Phil, you fuckwit).
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August 8, 2009 6:12pm
Hurf Durf

No. But then you’re dribbling the opposition as POLITICAL TERRORISTS (but not al-Qaeda though, they’re just misunderstood freedom fighters according to men like Pearlstein) hardly makes you arbiter of balance.
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August 8, 2009 6:16pm
thedavincimode

Half time and the vaccuous little plonker of a Hall Monitor has just made me splatter beer over the screen.

Here’s a question for you Delirium:

Have YOU followed Tom’s advice and done a comprehensive “analysis or critique” – EVER?

I can’t understand the interest in the whole US thing, and I can’t be bothered investing the dime in this argument, but I have to say Delirium, it does look like Tom sprung you in the old intellectual honesty department in putting (oops, that’s meant to be “debating”isn’t it) your little perspective on things. But then “intellectual honesty” doesn’t just require “honesty” does it ..
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August 8, 2009 6:27pm
Rex Widerstrom

Razork notes (links removed for brevity, refer original comment):

Rugby club captain gets into bed with a drunk player and sexually assaults him and gets 8 years jail.
Man assaults another guy leaving him in a coma and gets 2 years jail.
Man with 8 pages of previous convictions attacks partner with a tomahawk and also gets 8 years.

Seems to me the rugby club capt would have got less jail time if he had bashed the other player?

The problem with debating this issue is that you run the risk of being accused of “supporting” those who commit the “lesser” crime, so first off congratulations for having the guts to make the point Razork.

While sexual offences are serious they do not inflict the same damage as a tomahawk, yet the courts are conditioned – by the industry that’s grown up around victims of sex offences – to hand out sentences well in excess of what is appropriate in comparison to the sentences for other types of offences.

This is esepcially true of offences against children, when anything with a purely sexual nature often results in a sentence in excess of that handed down to someone who has brtually beaten and neglected a child over a lengthy period.

Of course one can hold that position while arguing that sentencing for sex offences should stay where they are and other sentences should be increased, or that sentencing for sexual offending should be reduced to better reflect its gravity compared to that of being attacked with a tomahawk.
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August 8, 2009 6:32pm
philu

“..DPF: 20 demerits for comparing me to someone responsible for a boating tragedy. Just because I am not blogging much doesn’t mean I can’t still hand out demerits!]..

haha..!.really..?

(never entered my mind i’d be demerited for that..)

demerited any righties..?

in the last month or so..?

ever..?

and..y’know..!..factual error there..eh..?

i didn’t compare you to ‘someone responsible for a boating tragedy.’..(..?..!..)

i compared you to the king of tonga flying off on holiday..

leaving ‘his people’..in the grips of a tragedy..

in yr case..the ending of ..amongst (yet unknown) other careers..

..the political life/credibilty of bill english..

(did you ‘miss’ that..?..

..glad to help/explain..)

..but..meh..!..eh..?

and twenty demerits..?..eh..?

..for that..?

and..d’ya reckon you’ll be doing any posts on that..?

y’know..!..the gouging/troughing culture in wellington/amongst that political culture you lurk in..

..(and have done so well out of..eh…?..)

..no..?

(i guess your silence is ‘understandable’..eh..?

look..!..over there..!

..a couple of solo-mothers..!

go gettem…!..tiger..!

bah..!

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 7:53pm
nickb

Phil you are a whining bludger. Get a job, show some responsibility. You are a piss poor excuse for a male kiwi.
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August 8, 2009 7:55pm
kaya

From the DOC website re pest eradication programmes on Motutapu and Rangitoto in the Hauraki Gulf where all the dead dolphins, dogs, penguins and fish are being found.

“The eradication will begin with three aerial applications of rodent bait containing brodifacoum between June and August 2009. Brodifacoum has been identified as the most effective poison for eradicating rodents in this situation.”

This had better be coincidence. I’m on Great Barrier and I can’t eat the fucking crayfish, snapper or anything that has been anywhere near the sea!
Seriously, if this is found to be related then someone needs to spend an awful long time in jail.
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August 8, 2009 7:57pm
Patrick Starr

“demerited any righties..?
in the last month or so..?
ever..?”

well now that you mention it Philu he did that just yesterday

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/08/colleagues_warned_carter.html#comment-594104

why did you ask? – what are you implying?

whatever it is I think your last post is worse than your first. Expect more demerits I’d say
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August 8, 2009 7:59pm
philu

“.why did you ask? – what are you implying?..”

i;m not ‘implying”..i’m saying..

that rightwingers can say what they want..go ‘off-topic’ whenever they like..

(with the exception of the gay-bashing you cite).

these pricks have said the vilest things about me..my children..

..and not one of them has even had farrar go tutt.tutt..

..let alone demerit..

how is that all not glaringly obvious..?

no ‘implying’ required..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 8:12pm
Patrick Starr

kaya – it’s the old 1080 argument again that DOC defend to the point of outright lies.
I truly hope that the mass poisoning is not as a result of the 1080, but being a hunter I see the mass devastation in the kaimanawas and kawekas – dead fish – dead birds – death everywhere. It was so bad on one occasion I had to bandage the mouth of my dog to prevent him eating the dead wildlife.
On Rangitoto, bird eats dead rat, bird dies over the ocean, fish eats bird etc etc
DOC however deny this impact constantly. They say it has no effect on native ground-dwelling mammals and the benefits of using it greatly outweigh the risks. really? I suppose none of the seagulls, penguins, dolphins and dogs found dead on the beach are native?

If this is not as a result of 1080 then I believe its maybe some form of dumping from an incoming ship ? – but I dont subscribe to the theory that its poisonous algae
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August 8, 2009 8:20pm
Patrick Starr

geez philu. You’ve now implied DPF was party to (to what you have previously described as corruption) the fiddling of expense claims and in your opinion has remained silent for that reason.
Dont you know when to back off?

You get what you give, but when was the last time anyone said anything vile about your children?
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August 8, 2009 8:35pm
philu

and ncb..you are a fucken law student/wannabe lawyer..

..meh..!

a good example of ‘a male kiwi’..eh..?

we all love lawyers..eh..?

and shit..!..have you heard about the economic meltdown..?

(you aren’t one of the deluded ones..believing ‘the recession is over’..are you..?

..wjho dosen’t realise the american economy is a tottering corpse..

..looking for a grave..?

i mean..lawyers are generally considered to be utter money-grubbing/grabbing scum..by most who come in contact with them..

..but they are meant to be ‘clever’..eh..?

how about you..?..are you ‘clever’..?

..can you see that..?

so..how needed do you think your ‘qualification’ will be..?

..in the economic wreckage you will graduate into..?

..we already have more than enough lawyers..eh..?

and lot’s of them are going to the wall..as business dries up..eh..?

(have you thought of doing something more ‘practical’..?

..a gardener-apprenticeship..?..maybe..?

..that’d be more ‘real kiwi male’ too..eh..?

..the gardening..?

i mean..any ‘kiwi male’ who becomes a lawyer..

also becomes..at the same time..

an honorary aussie..

..eh..?

(not a lot of ‘respect’ to be had there..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 8:42pm
kaya

Patrick Starr – The whole timing around the aerial drop and the dead animals and fish being found is extremely concerning. Also the haste with which the media releases came out saying that there was no way the two were related was obscene. How can they possibly say that before the tests are even carried out? Sounded like a nervous reaction to me. It makes me more dubious about any autopsy results coming from a NZ source. DOC know the implications of any connection are huge and will do everything they can to cover up any liability. Some of the dead penguins should be sent overseas for testing.

DOC are a bunch of lying bastards, the story they put forward when trying to get a marine reserve around almost a quarter of Great Barrier was a disgrace. Pure lies, spin and deceit but luckily there were enough people who saw that and stopped them in their tracks.

We had a good car sticker – “”DOC need docking! No marine reserve on Great Barrier Island!”
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August 8, 2009 8:45pm
philu

“..You get what you give, but when was the last time anyone said anything vile about your children?..”

starr..are you seriously asking that..?

you are one of the worst offenders..

(points for chutzpah..there tho’..eh..?..

..with the aww!/feigned innocence in that question..eh..?)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 8, 2009 8:54pm
Patrick Starr

Kaya- I didnt realise DOC claim to also be using brodifacoum? They already had 1080 down there???
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August 8, 2009 8:58pm
Patrick Starr

“starr..are you seriously asking that..?
you are one of the worst offenders..”

Philu – I know you are usually fucked on drugs when you are posting here – BUT YOU FIND ME ONE OCCASION where I have said ANYTHING vile about your children

you fucken lying wanker (maybe DOC will employ you)
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August 8, 2009 9:02pm
mattyroo

Philu – If the demerits are too much for you, why don’t you just stay at your own blog and engage in the stimulating debate that you have going on over there?

No chance of demerits then.
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August 8, 2009 9:36pm
kaya

Patrick Starr – here is a link to the page that said they were using brodufacom on Rangitoto and Motutapu. They don’t say 1080, guess they know that the name is pretty tainted. Nicemarketing (lying).

http://tiny.cc/yrTUN
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August 8, 2009 9:38pm
Patrick Starr

Kaya. I know they also had stores of 1080 (a DOC worker told me) so maybe they have used both?

“DOC is confident the deaths are not related to 1080 or rat poison recently dropped on Rangitoto Island. Published: 4:26AM Thursday August 06, 2009”
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/marine-deaths-stump-scientists-2889696

as you say – nice fibs, who really knows what they are up to?
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August 8, 2009 9:57pm
nickb

Haha phil thatd be almost hurtful if it didnt come from a dole bludger who stomps his lawns down when they get too long…
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August 8, 2009 10:09pm
Glutaemus Maximus

Here is delusionist Sion Simon, and his vision for a Labour in the UK.

Mr Simon is the man now responsible for Digital Britain.

Read and be amazed.

“‘Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority’
Let’s be clear: this is a mad one. You won’t have heard it anywhere else, but you can take it from me. At the age of 38, this is my 17th consecutive Labour Party conference, and I’ve never been to one quite like this.

It’s in the nature of collective hysteria that no single act can be adduced to prove its existence. But there is a fin de siecle, self-destructive, decadent craziness about Conference 2007. Somewhere in the wads of twenty somethings and thirtywouldbes jamming the chintzy Bournemouth bars long after they’re normally silent lurks the jitterbugging desperation of the Twenties before the Crash, Berlin between the wars, London as Imperial Glory died with its queen. The collective psyche of this group of individuals who’ve never had it so good has rarely been so uncertain.

This is not a columnar conceit. I do not really have a thesis; no point to prove. I can only tentatively explain this atmosphere. But nor am I wrong. This mood is as real as the grief in the church. I am simply reporting what is here.

Perhaps the magnitude of the moment we face is too great for us collectively to bear. Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority, and in so doing utterly shatter the glass paradigm of cyclical politics which has contained us for the century since 1906. This ought to herald another decade of strong, confident, consensual Labour government. Which will finally and irrevocably transform the nature of politics and civic life in Britain.

That is a frightening responsibility. The young princes who now stride the parade ground with the confidence born of aristocratic schooling can never be afraid. They never have been. Like latter day Pushkins drilled in the elite academy of Brownian blitzkrieg, they are bursting with their sense of destiny. It’s not the Milibands, the Ballses or the Burnhams who are unconsciously nervous. This is the moment for which they were created. They are ready.

But for the rest, the officer class as much as the rank and file, it’s a daunting inheritance. The decade to date has been a long march to sustain. Those who led it have changed and re-changed, been shuffled and sidelined, died and retired from the field. But we – the poor bloody soldiers – are still here. Our boots are fresh and our uniforms re-supplied. We are rested and invigorated. Morale, if it anywhere was, can only be high. Yet still it’s a decade since we have been home. As we prepare to strike out again from our camp, we don’t wonder which army will triumph, but begin to ask what we will do if this march never ends.

For, that, indeed, is what this madness is: it’s the hour that we see that the march never ends.

We’ve learned that we cannot be killed. And we’ve come to accept that we’ll never go home. But now is the light headed dance, the fretful mazurka, of an army that knows it can never arrive.”

Makes PHIL GOFF look almost sensible.
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August 8, 2009 10:55pm
Patrick Starr

What month are you up to Phool? Hows your search engine?

Remember you are looking for VILE comments about your children !!!

……you lying parasitical bit of poop
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August 8, 2009 11:25pm
thedavincimode

Not really GM. ‘k off makes the Goons look sensible.

Do you really think that Flapping Seagull Inc are any different? Milling around on the piss with themselves talking it up in complete isolation from the people that are about to give them the arse.

That said, this is an outstanding piece. Any idea what this frightful little irk actually stands for (apart from fresh boots and re-supplied uniforms)?
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August 8, 2009 11:49pm
Glutaemus Maximus

Watch the video at the top of the thread.

Scary.
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August 9, 2009 12:37am
starboard

demerited any righties..?

in the last month or so..?

ever..?

…suck it up whore boy..harden up..whats a few poxy demerits..at least you get to speak your mind..even though its shite
I got 30 points yesterday for calling carter a —– ——-…and expect more vileness about your children..you showed your weak point to the enemy…
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August 9, 2009 5:25am

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