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August 27, 2009 8:53am by David Farrar

General Debate 27 August 2009

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General Debate

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Redbaiter

Is a large part of the blogosphere self destructing??

Fiercely critical of the Klark government, blogs made a name for themselves as places where you would read criticism the mainstream media wouldn’t print.

They developed a white knight image- crusaders for truth and justice against a morally corrupted government and a sycophantic and politicaly partisan media.

Now, less than a year since John Key and National’s election, the white knight image is beginning to fade quite alarmingly.

Suddenly many of the blogs that were strident critics of Klark seem to have have morphed into syrupy protectors of the status quo. Become like the mainstream media they once held in contempt.

Don’t know about other readers, but I’m feeling less inspired to read blogs these days as the constantly fail to hold the National party to the fire the way they did Labour.

Peter Cresswell addressed this change of mood the other day and he called it doing a(Jordan) Carter. I guess this is a reference to Carter never being a blogger so much as a propagandist. Mr. Cresswell makes some valid points and lists blogs that have either ceased being effective critics of the government or have gone away.

Some of them IMHO needed to go away, but not all of them. If the blogosphere does not sharpen up and cease kow towing to a government that is in essence so similar to the previous government they were so critical of, they’ll lose not only their spark, but also their right to feel superior to the slowly dying mainstream media.

They will also lose a large part of their audience. If I want lame left wing bullshit that weakly cajoles yet another bunch of clueless socialists, I can read the Herald.

There is one difference of course between National and Labour, and that difference is becoming more starkly apparent every day. Whereas Labour clearly had an intent (to socialize NZ) and worked steadily away at that objective National in comparison seem aimless and confused.

The (so called) right wing blogosphere should be a lot more critical of National’s abject failure to man up if the blogs in question want to retain the respect they won the hard way during the Klark years.

What’s happening also reminds blog readers of another relatively important reality- there is a lot of difference between being “right wing” and supporting National.
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August 27, 2009 8:55am
si_rangi

On a positive – Fly My Pretties new album ‘A Story’ straight in at number one on the album charts with Opensouls “Standing in the Rain” opening at number eight. Bloody awesome, highlighting some of the very, very talented New Zealand Musicians we have out there.
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August 27, 2009 9:00am
Angus

Well expressed RB. And as you’ve previously stated, the only proper truly independent RW blog in NZ is:

http://www.crusader-rabbit.blogspot.com/

No heads clouded with progressive lies or political partisanship over there.

As an aside, I get the feeling Key will cave in on the Maori seats for the AK super city too. Watch this space.
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August 27, 2009 9:03am
Redbaiter

Totally agree Angus.

Crusader Rabbit can hold its head high.

IMHO, the best NZ blog by a light year.
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August 27, 2009 9:06am
Brian Smaller

I have noticed one real difference between bloggers and commentators from different parts of the political divide. Right bloggers/commentators generally don’t hesitate to pile into their side when they fuck up or do the wrong thing. Left bloggers, with few exceptions, seem to support their side no matter what they do.
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August 27, 2009 9:08am
Mr Nobody NZ

Whereas Labour clearly had an intent (to socialize NZ) and worked steadily away at that objective National in comparison seem aimless and confused.

I don’t think what we are seeing is confused or aimless National Party but rather a party purposefully projecting an image of confused and aimless while they push ahead with their agenda. Left wing commentators/blogs used to yell and scream about Nationals Hidden Agenda, I can’t help but think that they were right and perhaps we’re seeing the first part of it being revealed?
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August 27, 2009 9:11am
Chicken Little

Hey, I’ve got an idea.

Why don’t you girls stop squealing about everything you don’t like and start being a little more positive for a change?

Boo Hoo JK isn’t doing what I want boo hoo.

As I say to my kids – Build a bridge.

Edit: Look at that – took me 500 comments to finally get sick of the whinging.
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August 27, 2009 9:11am
jcuknz

The disgusting carry on one sees on some websites suggests to me that a number of talented people have pretty low and crude standards. The NYT today runs a story about the woman who slagged another woman
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/opinion/26dowd.html?th8emc=th
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August 27, 2009 9:15am
Brian Smaller

As an aside, I get the feeling Key will cave in on the Maori seats for the AK super city too. Watch this space.

Helen Key will cave into any pressure from anyone it seems. Anything to ‘not rock the boat’ or perhaps to be seen as the Great Compromiser.
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August 27, 2009 9:17am
Redbaiter

“I don’t think what we are seeing is confused or aimless National Party but rather a party purposefully projecting an image of confused and aimless while they push ahead with their agenda.”

So, you cheer for a government that stays in power by deceit?

If your scenario is correct, why can’t National articulate an argument to support what they really want to do. Be up front about those intentions??

I’ll tell you why. Because they’re largely a bunch of stuttering politically incoherent lamers.

They have no plan. They’re too contaminated by Progressives. I don’t think they’re even collectively smart enough to indulge in the deceit you suspect them of.
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August 27, 2009 9:18am
bobux

The New Yorker, not exactly a right-wing rag, has a blistering article on the New York teachers union, and their institutionalised protection of the rights of teachers over the rights of children. Read it and weep.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08/31/090831fa_fact_brill?currentPage=all

On one hand, in makes our PPTA look not just good, but stellar. On the other hand, it shows just how the interests of students are very different from the interests of teachers, despite the best efforts of teacher unions to claim otherwise.
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August 27, 2009 9:18am
Tim Ellis

Well if you don’t like what bloggers are saying RB, you could always start your own one. Heaven knows you put enough energy into commenting on others.
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August 27, 2009 9:20am
big bruv

Want know where out tax cuts went guys?

Neville fucking Key has decided to send child scum on holiday every year at our expense.
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August 27, 2009 9:20am
wreck1080

>>Don’t know about other readers, but I’m feeling less inspired to read blogs these days as the constantly fail to hold the National party to the fire the way they did Labour.

Labour were a disgrace to the country on many fronts, while national have only been a disgrace on one front so far (and they are being caned for it too).

Good points though.

My preferred party is Act, who are basically what national should be.
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August 27, 2009 9:22am
nickb

“Totally agree Angus.

Crusader Rabbit can hold its head high.

IMHO, the best NZ blog by a light year.”

What about Not PC Redbaiter?
Not classified to a political party as such, but fiercely pro-freedom
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August 27, 2009 9:24am
Redbaiter

“Well if you don’t like what bloggers are saying RB, you could always start your own one. Heaven knows you put enough energy into commenting on others.”

Blogging demands regular daily output. I can’t manage that.
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August 27, 2009 9:26am
Redbaiter

“Not classified to a political party as such, but fiercely pro-freedom”

I don’t like Libertarians much (and they don’t like me). I think many of the ideas they perceive as progressing freedom are actually damaging to the cause. IMHO, they are (like National), too contaminated by Progressive thinking.
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August 27, 2009 9:29am
Angus

The Nat’s has their first 100 days: mods to the RMA, the supercity etc, then the first stumbles. Melissa Lee abandoned in Mt Albert where the organizational skill of the Nat’s looked more like the stopryline in a Marx brothers film. The cringe inducing too-ing and fro-ing over the folic acid bullshit, English’s attitude to taxes, Worth putting his dick ahead of his Parliamentary responsibilities and Jim Bolger’s (sorry I mix them up these days) John Key’s lofty disdain for the results of the “Anti- Statism Referendum “..

Now they are rudderless, drifting aimlessly trying to win favor the progressive media at every turn. It’s all starting to look like a complete clusterfuck.
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August 27, 2009 9:31am
philu

you lot just don’t ‘get it’…do you..?

it ws clear from way back..that for key/national to gain power..

..that he would have to take the party back to the centre..

to re-colonise that ground held by clark/labour..abandoned during the brash-lurch to the far-right..

..this is what he did..

..and he knows that to retain power..

..he has to squat over that centre-divide..

..(so your far-right dreams of what key wd do..are just that..’dreams’..)

..key knows that a dry/right program will see/guarantee him tossed out on his ear..

..(and i agree that we will see maori representation on the new auckland city council..

..as i noted b4..the next hikoi in auckland..

..is going to be ‘huge’..

..and key will use that outpouring of popular will/discontent..

(and not just from maori..)

..as justification to turn away from hide on this..

..and to further stake his claim to the centre..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 27, 2009 9:32am
MikeNZ

Well David
Has John Key and National broken the social compact yet with his latest statement on John Boscawen’s Bill?

simple answer please, one word would be nice.

[DPF: I don’t know what a social compact is, but I assume you can read English and see on the front page where I labelled the decision not to back the bill as a “pretty huge mistake, and one they may regret over time”]
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August 27, 2009 9:34am
MikeNZ

Brian Smaller you are precious, the mental image was startling.
I wish I were a geek so I could make an image of Helen Key for a billboard.

I’d make it a National banner (with the light blue) with Helen Key in the center.
with the colour of the banner changed to Red behind him/her, and Him/her in Her imperial clothes.

Great comment.
I was right to vote ACT party vote.
I do wonder how many National MP’s will have the ball’s to cross the floor, not Crusher Collins I’m sure.
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August 27, 2009 9:41am
Redbaiter

BTW NickB, whilst I understand your enthusiasm for the Libertarians, (I once shared it) here is something to reflect on.

It was Larry Baldock who organised the petition to allow the referendum on Bradford’s bill. It was Larry Baldock who struggled against pretty massive opposition, raised over 300,000 signatures, and got the petition finally accepted by the government.

The Libertarians despise Larry Baldock, yet its pretty hard to point to any recent impact they have had on the political scene in NZ that equals that generated by Mr. Baldock.
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August 27, 2009 9:41am
Angus

“What about Not PC Redbaiter?”
“Not classified to a political party as such, but fiercely pro-freedom”

I read it semi regularly, and while he mostly espouses many good and forward thinking ideas, I have a low opinion of Cresswell over some of his own hypocrisy and elitism. I’m not religious myself but Cresswell’s “Where Was God” post in the recent wake of Elam Christian College drownings was a gross cheap shot offered purely because of his egocentric, atheistic world view.

Avoid the comments threads though, it’s more often than not a circle jerk forum for arrogant, sneering elitists.
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August 27, 2009 9:43am
philu

and a piece of advice for the hikoi-planners..?

hold the march at midday..on a saturday..

..you will guarantee your largest/whole family turnout..

(i proved this maxim with my arguing for the sat-midday option for the anti-ge march..way back then..

..and back then..i was arguing against delahunty/locke/norman/bradford..

..who all wanted to hold the march at the ‘traditional time’..for that time..

..namely..5 pm on a friday evening..

(designed for network news coverage..and guaranteed to piss off large numbers of work-weary aucklanders..trying to get home..)

i won that argument..(on a round of applause from the 60-70 activists present..)

and will contend that had my opponents won that argument..

nowhere near the 15,000 plus would have marched…

..and clark would not have been stopped in her (g.e.) tracks..

so..!..hikoi-organisers..!

..learn from that..!

..and have the march at ‘high-noon’…on a saturday..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 27, 2009 9:44am
Redbaiter

“Avoid the comments threads though, it’s more often than not a circle jerk forum for arrogant, sneering elitists.”

Damn right there.

And the Libertarian’s constant mantra that there is no difference between left and right, and that Conservatives and Christians are as equally damaging to freedom as Progressives, Secularists and Marxists is an idea that wil ensure that when it comes to actually progressing the concept and the reality of Liberty, the Libs will remain pretty much ineffective.

Their vote has fallen from 8000 to 1000, yet they seem incapable of developing ideas to arrest this decline. I suspect this is because their leadership is supported by sycophancy rather than spirit.
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August 27, 2009 9:50am
peterwn

See:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/08/flatt_beats_pagani.html

DPF: “WIth no disrespect to Chris Flatt, I’m somewhat relieved. Pagani is a cunning sod who could have been quite dangerous in the role.”

Following DPF’s glowing reference, John Pagina landed a top job in Phil Goff’s office.
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August 27, 2009 9:53am
nickb

“I don’t like Libertarians much (and they don’t like me). I think many of the ideas they perceive as progressing freedom are actually damaging to the cause. IMHO, they are (like National), too contaminated by Progressive thinking.”

So RB not an expert on Libertarianism but aare you trying to say something more along the lines of the Libertarians not having a moral code as such? I.e some of the social policy areas they’d actually like to liberalise laws in are harmful or counter-productive?
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August 27, 2009 9:55am
nickb

“I read it semi regularly, and while he mostly espouses many good and forward thinking ideas, I have a low opinion of Cresswell over some of his own hypocrisy and elitism. I’m not religious myself but Cresswell’s “Where Was God” post in the recent wake of Elam Christian College drownings was a gross cheap shot offered purely because of his egocentric, atheistic world view.

Avoid the comments threads though, it’s more often than not a circle jerk forum for arrogant, sneering elitists.”

Yea thanks angus, that comment is quite enlightening, I know what you mean there, RB you also. For someone who loudly espouses freedom in all things (including religion) some of the attacks against religion on that blog are pretty fierce (not that I’m religious myself). Seems a bit of bitterness, and makes the blog a bit less enjoyable
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August 27, 2009 9:59am
Ryan Sproull

Redbaiter,

What’s your email address? Mail me at ryan (at) statehighwayone.com if you’d rather not say here.
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August 27, 2009 9:59am
malcolm

The recession has given JK a honeymoon extension. And the blogs seem to be doing the same.

The big issue for me re this government is the taxation review. If JK wimps out on making substantive changes then the die is cast and we’ll see the blogs ramping up on him. I would also like to see a target to reduce government spending down to X% of GDP and here are the departmental budget cuts over the next 3 years which will achieve that.

The noises from JK are not promising though. “Ummm, that doesn’t sound very nice”, “Ummm, don’t know about”, “Ummm, people might say means things if I did that”, “Ummm, but everything is going swimmingly. Did I tell you about my trip to Canberra?. Lovely”.

cheers

Malcolm
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August 27, 2009 10:01am
kaya

“The white lines are in the middle of the road and that’s the most dangerous place to drive”. Don’t know who said it but it’s true.
Incidentally, I notice that many negative comments have been removed from Key’s Facebook page. Not abusive either, the heat must be getting up.
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August 27, 2009 10:02am
Redbaiter

“So RB not an expert on Libertarianism but are you trying to say something more along the lines of the Libertarians not having a moral code as such? I.e some of the social policy areas they’d actually like to liberalise laws in are harmful or counter-productive?”

Not really. See my post at 9:50am. (I wish I had more time to explain but I haven’t.) The NZ libs are distracted from the big picture by their pre-occupation with trendy Progressive ideas and their obsession with denigrating and dishonestly misrepresenting Conservatives and Christians. This alienates people who would otherwise support them.

In my humble opinion, authentic and traditional American Conservatism is a preferable path to Freedom than the confused doctrine of the NZ Libertarians.

(I say NZ Libertarians because under the influence of a strong secularist leadership, they are markedly different to the American Libertarians)
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August 27, 2009 10:04am
Mr Nobody NZ

“I don’t think what we are seeing is confused or aimless National Party but rather a party purposefully projecting an image of confused and aimless while they push ahead with their agenda.”

So, you cheer for a government that stays in power by deceit?

RB Don’t think for a second I cheer for this government. I feel that they have completely betrayed democray in this country.
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August 27, 2009 10:17am
casual watcher

Why is John Key prepared to die in the ditch over this smacking issue – it defies all the common sense he has displayed in office so far. The drawing of Boscowans Bill was a perfect opportunity to go with the flow and let the punters see some real democracy in action. There is no point to the stand he is taking and he can only lose from it. Wake up dozy Nats – this is stupid !
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August 27, 2009 10:40am
MikeNZ

Madeleine wrote on another blog
“Call me cynical but I think that Key opposes smacking but is aware the public are not there yet so he is happy to leave smacking illegal, not prosecute for the time being and wait for public opinion on smacking to shift, as it always will, in favour of the law”.

I don’t agree with her last sentence as we can all Vote our party votes to ACT as a protest for this one election.

Anyway who is Hekia Parata as she apparently is leading the split within National over JK’s behaviour over the Smacking issue?

They all need to cross the floor on this vote if they are denied a conscience vote and we must support them.
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August 27, 2009 10:46am
MikeNZ

Sorry David
Misspelling Social Contract
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

Social contract theory formed a central pillar in the historically important notion that legitimate state authority must be derived from the consent of the governed.

So I’ll ask again, Has John Key and National broken the social contract yet with his latest statement on John Boscawen’s Bill?
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August 27, 2009 10:56am
kaya

casual watcher – “Why is John Key prepared to die in the ditch over this smacking issue”

That is a question being asked repeatedly in all forms of the media. I have yet to see an answer that makes sense. Normally when looking at political decisions you can work out the “angle” even when you don”t approve of them. This one is a ripper.

He was stuttering in his interview with Mike Hosking this morning. I don’t think it is sitting comfortably with him which makes it look like he is under some spectacular pressure from somewhere, hopefully not the UN, IMF or World Bank. The implications of that are not good.
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August 27, 2009 11:03am
Tim Ellis

RB your 7,300 comments suggest you’ve got plenty of time for regular output if you start your own blog.
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August 27, 2009 11:21am
MikeNZ

I think Madelaine’s on NZ Conservative that I refered to above is as good as any
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August 27, 2009 11:25am
getstaffed

kaya – I agree about Key. In the past he’s looked and sounded both confortable and in control. Not over this issue. His demeanor has changed and he looks stressed. Not good.
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August 27, 2009 11:29am
MikeNZ

Getstaffed/Kaya
It is good, as now we see the mettle of the man.
JK has nowhere to go with this.
He clearly is not on the same planet as 80% of the voters.

Not only that his politiking in the media, spin and deflecting with the meaning of words and use of statistics is demeaning and arrogant in the light of the numbers and that we have spoken not once but twice.

In between we voted for Him and his team (centre right government) to remove the incumbents.
It is clear to all that both before voting for him and now after doing so, our message has been the same.

That National supporters are refusing to be blunt and straight about his and his teams behaviour is sad as this is becoming a character issue now as it is so clear.
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August 27, 2009 11:31am
Banana Llama

“who is Hekia Parata”

National list MP.

http://www.national.org.nz/Bio.aspx?Id=47458

Could just be a rumor to wind everyone up though MikeNZ.
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August 27, 2009 11:45am
MikeNZ

Maybe but if there are people of character within the National party we need to support them otherwise we’ll have the risk of Helengrad again but blue.
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August 27, 2009 11:51am
hj

Home paddock Notes that seemingly all the editorials on the Referendum had a negative tone. The Dick head from the Press was the most scathing.
http://homepaddock.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/editorials-on-referendum/

What does this say about editors: they consider they are the enlightened elite? journalists are more likely to be left wing (except NBR)?

Why did their editorships fail to convince Joe Public as to the error of their ways? What was the killer line: “they just want to beat children?

Todays press has an article by a Dr Annabel Taylor [the one with the two fat Greens] who thinks that the $9m could have gone to the “group at risk” who are…. (everything you might expect) and respond to programs.. So why does society have to change for these people who are a subset of society?.
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August 27, 2009 11:54am
Angus

Redbaiter said –

(I say NZ Libertarians because under the influence of a strong secularist leadership, they are markedly different to the American Libertarians)

Yes, and I would opine that the (IMHO) truly outstanding Glenn Beck would not be approved of by the NZ Libertarianz because of the overwhelming commitment to secular-progressivism that Cresswell et al have.
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August 27, 2009 11:54am
kaya

“The Labour Government has shown utter contempt for New Zealanders and the democratic process with its plan to railroad the anti-smacking bill through Parliament, says National Party Leader John Key.’The Labour…-led Government knows the measure is deeply unpopular, so it plans to act against the wishes of the majority of Kiwis and ram the bill through under urgency. This is a deeply cynical abuse of power as Labour tries to clear the decks of this controversial issue. Helen Clark has refused to let her MPs vote the way they really think on this bill. To ram it through under the cover of urgency shows just how out of touch her government has become….”

That was who I voted for. What happened?
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August 27, 2009 12:00pm
Redbaiter

“RB your 7,300 comments suggest you’ve got plenty of time for regular output if you start your own blog.”

Get off my back whiner. Those posts have been made over the period since Kiwiblog was first established in 2003 and cannot be used to measure my ability to post regularly. As anyone with a brain could easily deduce.
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August 27, 2009 12:09pm
MikeNZ

Kaya
You didn’t think through what they had actually done in enabling the law for Helen.
That is why we voted for ACT (party vote) as we are natural National supporters, it was utterly wrong.

In your defence you probably weren’t in the old Dog and Bone to listen to Sue Bradford and Stephen Franks on the intended and unintended consequences of the law as written.
It was at that point that I realised that the Yes Vote people will do anything to get their way.

Hindsight can be hard too.
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August 27, 2009 12:14pm
Redbaiter

“That was who I voted for. What happened?”

Anyone got a mailing list for the National Party?? That quote kaya has published above should be sent to every one of the weak wet shuffle footed charlatans.
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August 27, 2009 12:16pm
hj

John Key joins the Cultural Marxist Party CMP (aka Green Party Aotearo/NZ)

John Key has announced that National will oppose ACT MP John Boscawen’s Bill to legalise violence aganist children.

So regardless of what Labour will do (and Trevor Mallard seems to be equivocal, although also appears to be firming up Labour to oppose), the votes of the Green, Maori and National parties should see this appalling Bill soundly defeated.

End of story! Larry Baldock, Bob McCroskie and the rest of the spankers will now have to go off and find another way to legitimise the abuse of children.

And big ups to Sue Bradford. A great victory for our kids welfare!

(from Toad the “Red Green” at G blog)
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August 27, 2009 12:18pm
wikiriwhis business

“I get the feeling Key will cave in on the Maori seats for the AK super city too. Watch this space.”

Isn’t politics becoming very predictable.

you can almost know the next days headlines.

Key will fold

NZ will become part of OZ as a republic

Cashless society

New world order.

Politicians safe.
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August 27, 2009 12:20pm
kaya

RB – followed your suggestion, it has been sent to the lot of them, now waiting patiently for the computer generated replies. 9 in already 🙂
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August 27, 2009 12:38pm
nickb

Dunno if this is a stupid or far-fetched idea, but do you guys reckon those on the right in the Labour Party (if there is such a thing) like Cosgrove, Mallard, perhaps even Goff himself, would be feeling the ground with the wets in Labour to see if they can get some support for the Borrows amendment?

Imagine how badly they could snooker JK and the nats, and fuck up their gameplan, if they came out with an intent to support the bill to select committee? And accompanied it with a “mea culpa” of sorts, and an intention to listen to the people, along with a apology of sorts from ramming thru the original bill?
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August 27, 2009 12:40pm
stephen

Nats/Greens vs ACT/Labour would make a few heads spin.
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August 27, 2009 12:49pm
nickb

Haha I reckon. Just read mallard’s post on Red Alert, there does seem to be some kind of support there
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August 27, 2009 12:51pm
stephen

My guess is he’d like to have had some fun with National by hinting that he’s in favour of sending it to SC, but looks like the party whips got to him 😉
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August 27, 2009 1:27pm
MikeNZ

I have already too and I used the Yesvote site too which has a wonderful feeling whilst doing it.

It would serve John Key and National right if Labour scuppered them.
I still won’t vote for them as 10 yrs of liars and bad behaviour is not something I want to empower again.
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August 27, 2009 1:27pm
MikeNZ

I also asked them.

Is this true?
Are you a party to this?
Is there a section on honesty in the cabinet manual or the rules of the house?
Am I able to prosecute you as a result?
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August 27, 2009 1:31pm
mattyroo

What the fuck is up with our banks not buying RMB? They buy currency from shitty little despotic reigimes in the Pacific (read Tonga) yet don’t buy the currency of the 3rd largest economy in the world. The pricks are more than happy to sell me RMB, just won’t buy it back…. Means end up going to some shitty little street stall vendor and getting screwed on rates and “other charges”.
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August 27, 2009 1:45pm
Jack5

Mew topic for a minute if I may….

Is this Phoreal Philiu?

Smoking cannabis may fight prostate cancer. Think of the campaign possibilities: Pot for Prostate… or later in the day Prot for Postate..

http://www.enewspf.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9636:pot-like-compounds-halt-prostate-cancer-growth
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August 27, 2009 1:49pm
MikeNZ

If you’ve ever had the seeds for prostate you’d try smoking first I’m sure.
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August 27, 2009 1:51pm
KiwiGreg

@ Mattyroo flick em my way I’m off to Beijing Sunday
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August 27, 2009 1:54pm
Jack5

MikeNZ (1.51)…

Are you talking about radium seeds? I hear they can implant them in a cancerous prostate.

A different way of getting lit up for Philu…
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August 27, 2009 1:59pm
village idiot

Mr Key has flipped you the bird and while you stood there open-mouthed, he shat for good luck.
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August 27, 2009 2:00pm
Jack5

Here Philu, Philu, Here Philu, Philu, Philu…..

Philu: Where the hell are you? You are always here watching our posts like a stoned vulture, but when I get a pro-dope morsel for you (1.49 post), you’re gone.
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August 27, 2009 2:06pm
grumpyoldhori

Leave Key alone you lot, he is doing a fine job in leading the new Labour party.
Damn it is good to have a choice of Labour parties to vote for in 2011.
Hey, I understand a lot of hories are moving into Epsom to get rid of Rodders at the next election, evil buggers 🙂
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August 27, 2009 2:09pm
Patrick Starr

mattyroo – I usually change NZD / RMB in Hong Kong before going to mainland, but got caught once.

Ended up in Shanghai last year with only NZD – no one over there, not even the China national bank would touch NZD (but would take AUD) Had to stick $5k on the visa with horrendous commissions and fees

(so much for having an FTA, the aussies didnt)
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August 27, 2009 2:14pm
MikeNZ

Jack5
yep $20,000 a pop. mostly in private though.
they have a half life of course so you don’t glow in the dark forever.
Two good guys in Wellington, work out of Southern Cross.
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August 27, 2009 2:17pm
wreck1080

If someone admits to breaking the law on public radio, can you lay a police complaint?

Surely the admission is enough evidence.

For example, Michael Laws publicly admits to smacking his children despite being against the law.

I just wonder ,why the cops haven’t moved on him yet.
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August 27, 2009 2:27pm
Repton

Is there a section on honesty in the cabinet manual or the rules of the house?

There may be, but the speaker OKed lying in question time, so who knows?
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August 27, 2009 2:37pm
Jack5

Re Wreck1080’s 2.20 post

Laws, durn it, turns out to be lawsless, a lawsbreaker. and laws unto himself. There ought to be laws against him being mayor of such a lawsful town.
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August 27, 2009 3:28pm
Lucia Maria

The conservative part of the blogosphere is not self-destructing. As I’ve said before, the gloves are now off. And it’s not just me.
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August 27, 2009 3:33pm
philu

thanks for that..jack5..

here is more..

http://whoar.co.nz/?s=+marijuana+cancer

signed:..the stoned vulture..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 27, 2009 3:39pm
big bruv

Big ups to Gerry Brownlee and the Nat’s for their plans to open up areas of DOC land to mining, according to Brownlee it could be worth around $160 billion to the NZ economy.

This announcement has the added bonus of sending the Greens wild.

Drill baby drill!
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August 27, 2009 4:21pm
mattyroo

big bruv Says:

“Big ups to Gerry Brownlee and the Nat’s for their plans to open up areas of DOC land to mining, according to Brownlee it could be worth around $160 billion to the NZ economy.

This announcement has the added bonus of sending the Greens wild.

Drill baby drill!”

I couldn’t agree more bruv! The other announcement that I enjoyed reading today was the 8.7B to be spent on transport, with only ~10% of that going on public transport – that will also spin the putrid greens into a lather, that so little is being spent on their beloved public transport.

The cunts should count themselves lucky I’m not in charge of transport spending, they wouldn’t get a brass razoo that wasn’t going to make a commercial return, if I was doling out the bucks!
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August 27, 2009 5:17pm
Kris K

kaya 11:03 am,

casual watcher – “Why is John Key prepared to die in the ditch over this smacking issue”

That is a question being asked repeatedly in all forms of the media. I have yet to see an answer that makes sense. Normally when looking at political decisions you can work out the “angle” even when you don”t approve of them. This one is a ripper.

He was stuttering in his interview with Mike Hosking this morning. I don’t think it is sitting comfortably with him which makes it look like he is under some spectacular pressure from somewhere, hopefully not the UN, IMF or World Bank. The implications of that are not good.

The fact that the Bradford Bill was mandated by the UN [this is their global aim], it is not entirely beyond the realm of possibility that the UN has John Boy by the testicles, and are squeezing hard.

Would others here know whether there is any way to establish that Key is having undue pressure applied to him?
Wheels within wheels and all that.
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August 27, 2009 6:16pm
nickb

Can someone please tell me WTF this has to do with representing workers????

http://www.psa.org.nz/newsroom/mediareleases/09-07-23/PIP_fund_part_of_government%E2%80%99s_privatisation_agenda.aspx

http://www.psa.org.nz/newsroom/mediareleases/09-07-23/PIP_fund_part_of_government%E2%80%99s_privatisation_agenda.aspx

Does anyone still belive unions are not completely run by Labour, and vice versa?
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August 27, 2009 6:18pm
Viking2

http://www.nzcpr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=135&p=23942#p23942

Open Letter to the Prime Minister of New Zealand,
Parliament,
Wellington

26 August, 2009

Dear Prime Minister,

As you are aware I have led and organised the recent Citizens Initiated Referendum on the amendment to section 59 of the Crimes Act that has given all New Zealanders a chance to voice their strongly held views on a controversial subject. This was only possible because of the support given by a marvellous group of volunteers who gave their time and resources freely.

An important part of that group, at least in the first months of the campaign, were many of your Caucus members who strongly opposed the Sue Bradford’s bill, and actively collected signatures for the petition to force the referendum.

Given this common history in the referendum, and the very strong result, it would seem reasonable then that I may have been invited by you to discuss some proposals to address the widespread concerns of the majority of this country’s citizens.

In contrast, I have learnt from news reports that, prior to the referendum results being announced you have been involved in discussions with those we discover now only represent just fewer than 12 percent of the Referendum vote, such as Sue Bradford and Deborah Morris-Travers. In fact it seems that advisors from the ‘Yes” vote coalition are literally crawling all over our ‘House of Representatives.’

I shall therefore endeavour to communicate my concerns through this open letter and hope you may grant me an opportunity for personal dialogue as well.

The final results show that 87.4 percent voted ‘No!’ This means more New Zealanders voted ‘No’ in this referendum than voted for the National party in the 2008 elections and that the turnout at 56 percent was higher than for the referendum on MMP in 1992.

Your views about the rights of parents and your disapproval of the way the Helen Clark-led government ignored the majority opposition to the Bradford law are well known and documented. This makes your current position very difficult to understand and impossible to justify or defend.

When you try to reassure concerned parents with your personal promises, it seems, from the outside at least, that you are falling prey to the attitude that your predecessor developed wherein she thought as Prime Minister her opinion mattered more than anyone else’s, and that it was within her power to take care of everyone.

With all due respect John, you will not be Prime Minister forever. If you leave the Bradford law on our statutes any future government will be able to change the police and CYFS policy guidelines by executive decree, without reference to the democratically elected House of Representatives. This would render your short-term proposals aimed at giving comfort to the good parents of New Zealand null and void.

Prime Minister, good parents do not want words of comfort they want legislative change!

Your continued claims that the ‘law is working well’ are not enhancing anyone’s view of your comprehension of what the law was supposed to do, and what it is in fact accomplishing.

As a parliamentarian you will know that the purpose of a bill is summed up in its ‘purpose clause’.
It is impossible to properly evaluate whether or not the law as enacted is working well, except by reference to the purpose clause of the Bill itself.

Sue Bradford’s purpose clause was “The purpose of this Act is to amend the principal Act to make better provision for children to live in a safe and secure environment free from violence by abolishing the use of parental force for the purpose of correction”.

Here in clause 4 of her Bill we have the purpose and the means of achieving that purpose, defined very clearly, namely to reduce violence towards children (child abuse) by abolishing the use of parental force for correction!

The continued abuse and sickening deaths of children since the Bill was passed is proof that it is not achieving that purpose. The awful abuse continues, and Sue Bradford herself readily admits, “My bill was never intended to solve this problem”. (National Radio Dec 2007)

So not only is the law not working, but also that lofty goal has long since been abandoned by its sponsor!

When you claim that no good parents are being criminalised I think you are referring to ‘prosecuted’. The police records do indicate that the numbers of prosecutions are low at this point for smacking or minor acts of discipline offences, but the truth is that every parent that continues to use a smack for correction is automatically criminalised.

After all, wouldn’t we consider a thief a criminal once they stole possessions that were not their own, regardless of whether they were caught by the police and prosecuted? After being found guilty in court their status would then be changed to that of a convicted criminal.

The number of prosecutions by the police of good parents is therefore not evidence of whether the law is working or not.

The law has an effect on every good parent in this country even if a single prosecution has not been laid.

You may not have had to deal with the circumstances created when your child comes home from school to announce that they had been informed that they should report Mummy or Daddy to the teacher if they are smacked, but many have.

Your proposal to solve this dilemma appears to be that parents should wilfully break the law of the country, while disciplining their children for breaking the rules within the family home! This forces many parents into the awful position of a hypocritical ‘do as I say, not do as I do’ type parenting which should not be recommended by anyone, least of all the Prime Minister.

A useful test of the efficacy of the new law might be to determine how many more prosecutions the police are bringing before the courts against real child abusers. This is because supporters of the amendment to Sec 59 constantly claim that the police were hindered from prosecuting real child abusers because the previous Sec 59 defence of reasonable force meant they could easily be acquitted. They claimed that as a result the police were not even bothering to bring charges against these criminals.

This of course was not supported by a proper study of case law over the past 15 years, or the police statistics.

However, if this is the justification for the new law we should have seen a dramatic increase in the number of police prosecutions for crimes against our children, given that any use of force by parents for correction is now prohibited.

Police records and statements by Deputy Commissioner Rob Pope in the last police report on the new law saying that “its business as usual for the police” clearly confirms that the law is not working in that regard.

There is only one way in which it could be claimed the law is working, (though I cannot believe that this is what you mean), and that it is that progress is being made towards the total abolition of the use of parental force for the purpose of correction.

While prosecutions at this stage are low, the latest police report confirms that the police have issued a considerable number of warnings. What is the purpose of those warning Prime Minister? Does not a warning imply that the police have informed the traumatised family members that have just been subject to an investigation that they should not use force for the purpose of correction again, or else prosecution would likely follow. Surely that must be the case.
Because the purpose of the law is to ultimately stop parents from using any force for the purpose of correction!

All your promises and words of comfort are meaningless since the police are to be independent in enforcing the law in New Zealand. We have had enough of the police asking the PM whether they should prosecute or not with ‘paintergate’ and the failure to prosecute Heather Simpson over the illegal spending of taxpayer money in the 2005 elections.

New Zealanders are not stupid and they were not confused about the referendum question. They have understood from the very beginning what Sue Bradford and her supporter’s real intentions were. Surely you are not unaware of her motives, or have you now joined with her and the UN in their plan to run our country?
That plan was made clear in the Green party’s first press release back in 2003 when they announced they had drafted an ‘anti-smacking law’ to “stop parents physically punishing their children in line with UN demands.”

A recent survey confirmed a reduction in the number of parents using smacking for correction, which is not surprising given that it has been a criminal offence for the last two years. Unfortunately, such a decline has not resulted in a less violent society.

I guess this does reveal though, that the law is indeed working, but is that what you and the National party were committed to? Have you really become so aligned with Sue Bradford and the 12 percent minority of the country who view all discipline as violence, that you are pleased with this outcome?

If so, it must be said that your party has made a flip-flop in policy between May and June 2007, without consultation with your supporters, sufficient to make the 1984 Labour government look like angels of democracy!

Given that a recent Colmar Brunton poll showed that 90 percent of National Party voters were going to vote ‘no,’ and that the result from your own electorate was about the same, surely there are many of your loyal voters who would be shocked at the change in your views on parenting?

One of the things that made a positive impression on me, when I discussed with you how you would vote on the Prostitution Law Reform Act back in 2003, was that you said that when you were made aware of your electorates’ opposition to the proposed bill, you felt you were obligated to represent them and vote against the law.

Surely you have not abandoned your principles in just a few short years?

Prime Minister I have no personal interest in becoming your enemy, but I will speak up on behalf of 87.4 percent of Kiwis who voted ‘No’.

Many of these people feel they have lost all hope of being heard by politicians in their own country. As my wife and I criss-crossed the country many times over the 18 months in which we collected signatures to force the referendum, we encountered a great deal of despair and distrust towards parliamentarians. Having been one myself, this saddened me a great deal.

I know that most MPs generally work hard and try to do what they can to make New Zealand a better place.

However, we both know that most Kiwis do not evaluate their MPs on the basis of their daily activities but on events like this, when there is a clear choice to be made between listening to the wishes of the people or following ones own ideas or political agenda.

Given the current political landscape where both the Government and the ‘Queens Loyal Opposition’ MPs in this country are refusing to listen to the voice of the people and stand up for democracy, it is entirely possible that you may be able to disregard this referendum and survive politically for a few more years.

I am absolutely convinced however, that you will do almost irreparable harm to our democracy, and strike a deep wound in the hearts of so many of your countrymen and countrywomen.

I humble urge you to reconsider your current position,

Yours sincerely
Larry Baldock
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August 27, 2009 6:48pm
Viking2

Redbaiter, you were looking for an email list of MP’s.

http://www.nzcpr.com/parliament.php

Govt. Departments.
http://www.nzcpr.com/government_consultation.htm

Always there at NZCPD home page.
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August 27, 2009 6:51pm
Viking2

John Key to appear on Letterman show
By TRACY WATKINS – The Dominion Post

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv/2808566/John-Key-to-appear-on-Letterman-show

Off to the UN to get his orders from Helen.
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August 27, 2009 6:54pm
Viking2

23 August 2009
Change the Law Prime Minister Printer friendly version (PDF) View >>>

The public have spoken. 87.6 percent of New Zealanders want the law that has banned smacking changed. They want to go back to the common sense situation that existed before Parliament saw fit to pass Sue Bradford’s repeal of Section 59 of the Crimes Act into law.

http://www.nzcpr.com/weekly194.htm

The best Political Commentator in this country, without peer.
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August 27, 2009 6:57pm
Hurf Durf

John Key to appear on Letterman show

No

NO

What the fuck does he hope to achieve in this?
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August 27, 2009 7:05pm
philu

“..The public have spoken. 87.6 percent of New Zealanders want the law that has banned smacking changed..”

no..87% of those who voted..

which was not ‘87.6 percent of New Zealanders ‘.

you righties have real problems with basic facts..don’t you..?

and you just make things up..all the time..at the drop of a hat..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 27, 2009 7:06pm
philu

“..What the fuck does he hope to achieve in this?..”

publicity for new zealand..?..tourists..?..global audience..?

he is our tourism minister..after all..

able to ‘grasp’ all that..?..are you..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 27, 2009 7:08pm
nickb

“no..87% of those who voted..

which was not ‘87.6 percent of New Zealanders ‘.

you righties have real problems with basic facts..don’t you..?

and you just make things up..all the time..at the drop of a hat.”

So had the other 50% of people voted, what do you think the result would have been phil? Name a figure.
I have a referendum question for you:

Should smoking a joint in the presence of your child be a crminal offence in New Zealand?

Oh wait… it already is..
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August 27, 2009 7:14pm
Nomestradamus

Philu:

you righties have real problems with basic facts..don’t you..?

and you just make things up..all the time..at the drop of a hat..

You mean you don’t make things up – like, say, that lie about your Technorati blog ranking?
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August 27, 2009 7:18pm
big bruv

Hurf

It seems we now know why Neville Key did not want to change the anti smacking law, after all, he does not want to be seen in a bad light by his socialist mates at the corrupt UN does he.

As for Letterman, fuck knows why he wants to do that show, again, I can only assume he is pandering to the left in search of votes.

The man is a fucking disgrace.
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August 27, 2009 7:22pm
big bruv

Philu:

you righties have real problems with basic facts..don’t you..?

and you just make things up..all the time..at the drop of a hat..

You mean you don’t make things up – like, say, that lie about your Technorati blog ranking? or University degree’s
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August 27, 2009 7:23pm
philu

you lot really hate key now…don’t you..?

what strange little/bitter/angry people you are..

you really are the rabid-right..aren’t you..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 27, 2009 7:26pm
nickb

Haha so bitter politics is the preserve of the right is it philu?
Don’t be so cancerous and corrosive
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August 27, 2009 7:29pm
Patrick Starr

philu I know it’s a new phenomena to you, but we hold our politicians to account

(IOW we don’t brown nose them like you do)
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August 27, 2009 7:29pm
philu

so now i’m ‘brown-nosing’ key..am i..?

hilarious..!

(so that’s nosty/nckb/starr and bvruv..

to go on the ‘don’t bother any more..they are truly demented!-list..)

bye..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 27, 2009 7:42pm
getstaffed

awww c’mon phil… add me to that list. p-p-p-leeeease
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August 27, 2009 7:44pm
philu

who are you..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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August 27, 2009 7:49pm
Nomestradamus

Philu:

(so that’s nosty/nckb/starr and bvruv..

to go on the ‘don’t bother any more..they are truly demented!-list..)

You know what’s demented? That you spend all day blogging while claiming to be unable to hold down a job. Now that’s demented. Oh, and want me to show where you lied about your Technorati blog rating? You have no come-back to that, do you?

Honestly, I don’t know why you bother coming to Kiwiblog when you get such an ass-kicking every day. Are you into BDSM or something?
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August 27, 2009 7:52pm
Manolo

“Why is John Key prepared to die in the ditch over this smacking issue..”

Because his middle name is NEVILLE, yes, in capital letters.
The PM is an appeaser by nature, a man of the “go-with-the-flow” type, a person of little principle who stands for nothing.
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August 27, 2009 7:54pm
Viking2

English to reassure world lenders
2:00PM Thursday Aug 27, 2009

Finance Minister Bill English will outline the Government’s plan for economic recovery to international lenders during visits to Tokyo, New York and Boston next week.

He said today the aim was to assure them the Government had a realistic plan to control debt, lift growth and rebalance the economy towards greater investment and exports.

The Treasury has forecast the Government will have to borrow about $40 billion over the next four years to fund budget deficits.

“Governments all over the world are going to the market to borrow large sums to support their economies,” English said.

“To secure the funds we need to make sure we are out there telling our story.”

He said he would remind investors that New Zealander’s economic fundamentals were sound, the Government’s debt was relatively low and the country was well positioned to come out of the recession ahead of comparable nations.

English and officials from the Debt Management Office will meet representatives from major financial institutions in all three cities.

Now the question has to be”what is the plan?”
We await it to be revealed to the populace, who no doubt will be requires to fund it.
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August 27, 2009 8:03pm
nickb

Makes me laugh when I think of all the wets who accused JK of having a “hidden agenda” beofre the 08 election. A hidden agenda of communism alright!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3571934

The bit that makes me laugh is:
“Mr Key said such high rates were lunacy and National would “re-engineer” the system in government.”

Goodbye sensible policies, hello politics.
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August 27, 2009 8:19pm
kaya

Philu – as a relative newcomer to kiwiblog I have watched you post repeatedly and have been amused but mostly perplexed. Why do you bother? Nobody likes anything you have to say.

I can only put your continued posting down to either a perverse kick from getting constantly slagged off, or is it like kids, even bad attention is better than none? I could understand the occasional perusal around a place where you hate everyone and everything and where the feeling is mutual, but you seem to spend half your life here. It’s interesting purely from a psychological perspective.
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August 27, 2009 8:27pm
EverlastingFire

nickb – Early on when National took power and made a controversial decision or something we would call “not typically National” there were numerous posts on Kiwiblog that were to the effect of “brilliant politics by John Key” and “I think this is all part of Key’s master plan”. Well we sure as hell know now.
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August 27, 2009 8:41pm

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